Deadeye are even more obnoxious than Scourges

[Daishi.6027]

After the recent changes I think it’s fine. I’m not so pleased with how much escape they have and that they can endlessly retry; I feel like things like that need to eventually, and reliably run out. Also sure it sucks to get +1ed... But that has always been thieves job, and head to head it’s never been to difficult to simply anticipate their shot and dodge.

 

It’s not like they can reliably take a point from you head to head if you out play them.

[ParanoidKami.2867]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > Death's Judgement has a pretty big tell, visual and audio, and is now blockable/reflectable.

> > > >

> > > > Problem is quickness.

> > >

> > > Problem is. U see mark on u. U dodge. The problem with dying to a bad deadeye is also quickness. If u hear the sound and the dodge you have a whole second to dodge. Since it's about 4 skills they press. U dodge that shot the deadeye has already spent everything trying to put that one burst and now must wait to redo it. Now u just port to him and he will use his only shadowstep and will likely run.

> >

> > Death's Judgement is a .5 second skill not 1. My post was about having quickness and using Deaths Judgement since it speeds up the attack and it's too fast to dodge on reaction. There are other ways to get quickness besides the trait for Mark. I know how to deal with Deadeyes and don't have any problem closing in on them or defending. Quickness on DoJ just takes out some counterplay.

>

> You act as if a DE can instantly 1 shot thru 1 deaths judgement. A deaths judgement with no might stack is not all that high. It becomes massive after spamming skill 3 to stack 25 might.u need spotter shot, 2-3 3 round burst for malice and the f2 skill to stealth then deaths judgement.

>

> The 5 buttons u have to press even with quickness does not take .5 seconds, it's more like 1.5 I know because I play alot of DE. Only players who arent aware n don't react die to it. And that barely happens at or above gold.

>

> Most of the time I save the burst n just shoot till all cool downs r gone before I actually use it. Which is how the game is suppose to be played.

>

> So no it does not take .5 seconds to down some one with quickness because 1 skill does not do 25k dmg instantly.

 

Stop making things up on what I'm talking about and then making an argument around it...

[TorQ.7041]

> @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > > Death's Judgement has a pretty big tell, visual and audio, and is now blockable/reflectable.

> > > > >

> > > > > Problem is quickness.

> > > >

> > > > Problem is. U see mark on u. U dodge. The problem with dying to a bad deadeye is also quickness. If u hear the sound and the dodge you have a whole second to dodge. Since it's about 4 skills they press. U dodge that shot the deadeye has already spent everything trying to put that one burst and now must wait to redo it. Now u just port to him and he will use his only shadowstep and will likely run.

> > >

> > > Death's Judgement is a .5 second skill not 1. My post was about having quickness and using Deaths Judgement since it speeds up the attack and it's too fast to dodge on reaction. There are other ways to get quickness besides the trait for Mark. I know how to deal with Deadeyes and don't have any problem closing in on them or defending. Quickness on DoJ just takes out some counterplay.

> >

> > You act as if a DE can instantly 1 shot thru 1 deaths judgement. A deaths judgement with no might stack is not all that high. It becomes massive after spamming skill 3 to stack 25 might.u need spotter shot, 2-3 3 round burst for malice and the f2 skill to stealth then deaths judgement.

> >

> > The 5 buttons u have to press even with quickness does not take .5 seconds, it's more like 1.5 I know because I play alot of DE. Only players who arent aware n don't react die to it. And that barely happens at or above gold.

> >

> > Most of the time I save the burst n just shoot till all cool downs r gone before I actually use it. Which is how the game is suppose to be played.

> >

> > So no it does not take .5 seconds to down some one with quickness because 1 skill does not do 25k dmg instantly.

>

> Stop making things up on what I'm talking about and then making an argument around it...

 

> @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > > Death's Judgement has a pretty big tell, visual and audio, and is now blockable/reflectable.

> > > > >

> > > > > Problem is quickness.

> > > >

> > > > Problem is. U see mark on u. U dodge. The problem with dying to a bad deadeye is also quickness. If u hear the sound and the dodge you have a whole second to dodge. Since it's about 4 skills they press. U dodge that shot the deadeye has already spent everything trying to put that one burst and now must wait to redo it. Now u just port to him and he will use his only shadowstep and will likely run.

> > >

> > > Death's Judgement is a .5 second skill not 1. My post was about having quickness and using Deaths Judgement since it speeds up the attack and it's too fast to dodge on reaction. There are other ways to get quickness besides the trait for Mark. I know how to deal with Deadeyes and don't have any problem closing in on them or defending. Quickness on DoJ just takes out some counterplay.

> >

> > You act as if a DE can instantly 1 shot thru 1 deaths judgement. A deaths judgement with no might stack is not all that high. It becomes massive after spamming skill 3 to stack 25 might.u need spotter shot, 2-3 3 round burst for malice and the f2 skill to stealth then deaths judgement.

> >

> > The 5 buttons u have to press even with quickness does not take .5 seconds, it's more like 1.5 I know because I play alot of DE. Only players who arent aware n don't react die to it. And that barely happens at or above gold.

> >

> > Most of the time I save the burst n just shoot till all cool downs r gone before I actually use it. Which is how the game is suppose to be played.

> >

> > So no it does not take .5 seconds to down some one with quickness because 1 skill does not do 25k dmg instantly.

>

> Stop making things up on what I'm talking about and then making an argument around it...

 

Your making things up... Deaths judgement doesn’t instantly do 25k. It’s not 1 skill. You haven time to react. It’s like like sic em, when ur knocked back and then 1 shoted....

 

[MrFrusciante.2438]

> @"syszery.1592" said:

> Can we also nerf Svanir? The charge is too hard to dodge.

 

^ he's right. The way he saunters over to you is very menacing. Honesty I'm all for the devs to change it to make him ask permission before he tries to hug you....

 

 

I think he need to > @"Daishi.6027" said:

 

> It’s not like they can reliably take a point from you head to head if you out play them.

 

 

Thank you Sir

 

 

[avey.4201]

Should be impossible to enter stealth while in combat, or reveal for 2-3 seconds on leaving stealth, I've seen plenty who only left stealth for 1/2 second to shoot, they are stealth by the time you land your dodge, they retry until you miss a dodge, or eventually point blank you to the back, never a chance to attack them. "WvW of course"

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Madisonlee.9641" said:

> That's why they made that attack blockable.

>

> There are many builds across all classes that can literal one shot for 15k+ or do massive amounts of damage in a fraction of a second for a perceived one shot (power mes as an example) and a few of these specs can do those numbers from stealth; thieves, mes, ranger, holo, etc. These specs are fringe, meme, and not viable in top competitive play because of how vulnerable they are to being obliterated by any opposing team who knows that they are specced for 1 shots.

>

> I, as a player that does not completely suck, have learned that when I see one of those players in game, I should be on guard. Sometimes I will be caught by them when I'm tunnel-visioned in another fight, but it rarely happens. I sincerely apologize if you do not have the reaction time, awareness, or ping (RIP aussie friends) to deal with these attacks, but one shots exist in almost every pvp game I've played, and will continue to exist in GW2.

>

> TLDR: Learn to play my friend, or move on to PVE (you def don't wanna be in WvW if you think the PvP one shot numbers are high XD ).

>

> Edit:

>

> And I'll explain why if you're curious. It's because those specs literally build for damage increase in every way they can. They have very few defenses. If you nerf an ability, say Death's Judgement, because a player fully specced for meme damage is one shotting you, then every other one of the 99% of thief players who AREN'T specced for meme one shots will do absolutely laughable damage with Death's Judgement.

>

 

Yes. Deaths judgment is dodge able.

But:

1. if you are infight you might not notice the very small red line, showing you will get shot, because of the sheer effect overload some classes have.

2. You might have used both dodges

3. You might have no way of blocking the attack (so basically you play necro)

 

It's pretty dumb. I didn't play a single game, where one ability could entirely kill another player.

And while a lot of small hits in very short time can "oneshot" people, they will trigger the passive invuln trait, that most classes have.

While the onehit builds, like the deaths judgment or malicious backstab thief will literally down you with one hit, due to massive range, or being invisible the whole time.

I'm almost never playing spvp, but in wvw this is outa control. Especially because those onehit builds completely ignore auto invulns. Which is nice, that counterplay to it exists, but this is definetly the wrong kind of counterplay.

 

 

> Nothing can be done about the situation except bettering yourself as a player, or making all classes hit like wet noodles.

 

 

[Aodlop.1907]

"this is what thief is about" is such a stupid argument.

Thief can also be about poisons, stealth, mobility, and, you know...thieving ? It already does all these things. It's fine, removing its ability to one-shot people shouldn't be too immersion breaking, don't worry.

 

> Applies to all professions and rank, from a design perspective the ability for any player to take 100% of a another players health in a second or so is poor gameplay and design for pvp.

 

[Derenaya.3479]

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> "this is what thief is about" is such a stupid argument.

> Thief can also be about poisons, stealth, mobility, and, you know...thieving ? It already does all these things. It's fine, removing its ability to one-shot people shouldn't be too immersion breaking, don't worry.

>

> > Applies to all professions and rank, from a design perspective the ability for any player to take 100% of a another players health in a second or so is poor gameplay and design for pvp.

>

 

If you run a full glass canon build you should do alot of damage, I do however agree that oneshots are stupid and that they shouldn‘t be possible on any profession.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Derenaya.3479" said:

> > @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> > "this is what thief is about" is such a stupid argument.

> > Thief can also be about poisons, stealth, mobility, and, you know...thieving ? It already does all these things. It's fine, removing its ability to one-shot people shouldn't be too immersion breaking, don't worry.

> >

> > > Applies to all professions and rank, from a design perspective the ability for any player to take 100% of a another players health in a second or so is poor gameplay and design for pvp.

> >

>

> If you run a full glass canon build you should do alot of damage, I do however agree that oneshots are stupid and that they shouldn‘t be possible on any profession.

 

Base health of a thief in zerkers is 11645. In order for there never to be a one shot that means the maximum damage of any ONE attack has to be less then 11645.

 

Assume we take 10k as the maximum damage of ANY attack in your "There never should be a one shot world".

 

Base health of a zerker warrior is 19212. Do you see the problem?

 

If the max damage a thief or warrior can put out in a single attack capped at 10000 , then a warrior can take away 85 percent of a zerker thief health in a single hit while a thief can take can take 52 percent of a warriors health in a single attack. The warrior is built to take multiple hits, the thief is not. Assume we make these numbers more equitable damage wise so a warrior can hit for a maximum of 52 percent of Thief health. That would mean a maximum hit of 6045 damage from warrior. That warrior is never going to be able to kill any of the tank builds with sustained heals and higher armors/vitality.

 

You are talking about a redesign of the entire game.

[Aodlop.1907]

Warrior have more HP because they don't have stealth, they can hardly reset a fight and have fewer evades. Also, the situation you're describing is a direct 1v1 between a warrior and thief that headbuts into the warrior like an idiot, which just doesn't happen beyond bronze league.

What does happen in any league though is you fighting in 1v1 against some guy and taking a 15k instant hit from range AND from stealth.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> Warrior have more HP because they don't have stealth, they can hardly reset a fight and have fewer evades. Also, the situation you're describing is a direct 1v1 between a warrior and thief that headbuts into the warrior like an idiot, which just doesn't happen beyond bronze league.

> What does happen in any league though is you fighting in 1v1 against some guy and taking a 15k instant hit from range AND from stealth.

 

Warriors have more HP because Anet totally botched health tiers and is clinging eternally to the outdated and ill-designed concept. And speaking just of evades, have you seen the current meta setup for warr? Endurance regen signet, Might Makes Right, etc. It's insane.

 

So, ah. No.

 

Edit after test: Zerk amulet, Scholar, rifle. ~4k DJ on a heavy golem with no setup. 5.2k if I mark them. 6kish if I do the whole quickness on mark thing. Care to elaborate?

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

I feel like this post is poorly timed. Before the last patch it would make perfect sense, but since DJ was made blockable, some of the skills were given extra initiative cost, and lead attacks got nerfed it's hardly a problem anymore.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > > > Death's Judgement has a pretty big tell, visual and audio, and is now blockable/reflectable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problem is quickness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Problem is. U see mark on u. U dodge. The problem with dying to a bad deadeye is also quickness. If u hear the sound and the dodge you have a whole second to dodge. Since it's about 4 skills they press. U dodge that shot the deadeye has already spent everything trying to put that one burst and now must wait to redo it. Now u just port to him and he will use his only shadowstep and will likely run.

> > > >

> > > > Death's Judgement is a .5 second skill not 1. My post was about having quickness and using Deaths Judgement since it speeds up the attack and it's too fast to dodge on reaction. There are other ways to get quickness besides the trait for Mark. I know how to deal with Deadeyes and don't have any problem closing in on them or defending. Quickness on DoJ just takes out some counterplay.

> > >

> > > You act as if a DE can instantly 1 shot thru 1 deaths judgement. A deaths judgement with no might stack is not all that high. It becomes massive after spamming skill 3 to stack 25 might.u need spotter shot, 2-3 3 round burst for malice and the f2 skill to stealth then deaths judgement.

> > >

> > > The 5 buttons u have to press even with quickness does not take .5 seconds, it's more like 1.5 I know because I play alot of DE. Only players who arent aware n don't react die to it. And that barely happens at or above gold.

> > >

> > > Most of the time I save the burst n just shoot till all cool downs r gone before I actually use it. Which is how the game is suppose to be played.

> > >

> > > So no it does not take .5 seconds to down some one with quickness because 1 skill does not do 25k dmg instantly.

> >

> > Stop making things up on what I'm talking about and then making an argument around it...

>

> > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > > > > @"ParanoidKami.2867" said:

> > > > > > > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > > > > > Death's Judgement has a pretty big tell, visual and audio, and is now blockable/reflectable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problem is quickness.

> > > > >

> > > > > Problem is. U see mark on u. U dodge. The problem with dying to a bad deadeye is also quickness. If u hear the sound and the dodge you have a whole second to dodge. Since it's about 4 skills they press. U dodge that shot the deadeye has already spent everything trying to put that one burst and now must wait to redo it. Now u just port to him and he will use his only shadowstep and will likely run.

> > > >

> > > > Death's Judgement is a .5 second skill not 1. My post was about having quickness and using Deaths Judgement since it speeds up the attack and it's too fast to dodge on reaction. There are other ways to get quickness besides the trait for Mark. I know how to deal with Deadeyes and don't have any problem closing in on them or defending. Quickness on DoJ just takes out some counterplay.

> > >

> > > You act as if a DE can instantly 1 shot thru 1 deaths judgement. A deaths judgement with no might stack is not all that high. It becomes massive after spamming skill 3 to stack 25 might.u need spotter shot, 2-3 3 round burst for malice and the f2 skill to stealth then deaths judgement.

> > >

> > > The 5 buttons u have to press even with quickness does not take .5 seconds, it's more like 1.5 I know because I play alot of DE. Only players who arent aware n don't react die to it. And that barely happens at or above gold.

> > >

> > > Most of the time I save the burst n just shoot till all cool downs r gone before I actually use it. Which is how the game is suppose to be played.

> > >

> > > So no it does not take .5 seconds to down some one with quickness because 1 skill does not do 25k dmg instantly.

> >

> > Stop making things up on what I'm talking about and then making an argument around it...

>

> Deaths judgement doesn’t instantly do 25k. It’s not 1 skill.

Pretty sure Death's Judgement is in fact 1 skill.

[Curennos.9307]

Kinda wish they'd just remove quickness and slow from spvp.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Kinda wish they'd just remove quickness and slow from spvp.

 

And invuln..and dodge....and swiftness....and regen

[Crab Fear.1624]

nerf deadeye.

[Zenix.6198]

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

 

> I didn't say it was op or that deadeye were impossible to kill. I said getting killed by one was frustrating and poor design. You don't feel like this idiot deserved his kill, cause he just appears out of nowhere and one shots you during a fight. Even if you do spot him during your fight, you may no longer have the tools to dodge his stupid one shot skill. No class should be able to deal that much damage with ONE spell.

 

See thats exactly whats wrong with the PvP playerbase in this game.

They think it is justifiable to deal more than 50% of a players health in a 1-second timeframe (dont use the word "1shot" ...people get very technical about it) because you can "just dodge it lul".

 

I played the new WoW expansion this summer for a few months and holy cow was there a kittenstorm whenever there was a build that could burst for more than 33% of a players healthpool. And while everybody was screaming bloody murder, I was just sitting there, thinking "Is 33% really that bad?". Thats what the current state of gw2 pvp does to people. Cause you have 2 dodges.....much counterplay, very l2p. Doesnt matter that you would have to dodge 46284762984793 abilities to not get "outplayed" in a more chaotic situation (like a 3v3 skirmish or w/e).

 

 

[crewthief.8649]

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> > grow the hell up and learn counterplay and avoidance. There's plenty of counterplay against a D

>

> https://bit.ly/2SynFaY

> Right. This guy totally had it comming and really needs to L2P.

> To think specs like deadeye & scourge exist in the same game as weavers is mindblowing to me.

> And yes, this video is pre-nerf, but my screenshot on this thread is not, they still deal absurd damage and neef further gutting.

 

I love that video. Thank you for introducing it to me.

[Jazzumness.7098]

Lets clear some things up

DJ has a obvious tell yes in most situations its your fault for not dodging

My problems with Deadeye stem from two things

1. The class is incredibly boring and un-fun to fight

2. Players who use haste with DJ to make it 1/4 second cast time (250 miliseconds is considered pretty substantial reaction time IDC if you can dodge this most people cannot)

For the first one, the dodge on stealth and their elite removing revealed is not very engaging for the opposing player. GW2 combat relies heavily on punishment for misusing resources, the fact that the DE stealth's after their dodge makes it extremely hard to punish as the end of dodges are usually opening for players.

Not only that but combine that with the escapablility of thief and their stun breaks with the fact that if they dont kill you they can just cleanse revealed from attacking and from skills like sic em makes counter play hard to find when their burst ends.

The second case is a bit fringe as most people do not try this combo but it still exists. Quickness will make your DJ 1/4 of a second please do not whine about the fact that you dodged this once or any other dumb anecdote most people cannot react to this.

As it stands whether im in pvp or wvw i find the best option for fighting deadeyes is to just run away which says a lot about how engaging they are to fight. They are simply too hard to punish for making mistakes, and have even more fail safes than regular thief.

[Xcution.4768]

 

> But it requires 25 times more brain and skill than scourge or deadeye. It's a high effort low reward class.

You have clearly not faced good revs.

 

[Aodlop.1907]

> @"Xcution.4768" said:

>

> > But it requires 25 times more brain and skill than scourge or deadeye. It's a high effort low reward class.

> You have clearly not faced good revs.

>

 

That's the point though. They have to be good, unlike deadeyes.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Jazzumness.7098" said:

> Lets clear some things up

> DJ has a obvious tell yes in most situations its your fault for not dodging

> My problems with Deadeye stem from two things

> 1. The class is incredibly boring and un-fun to fight

> 2. Players who use haste with DJ to make it 1/4 second cast time (250 miliseconds is considered pretty substantial reaction time IDC if you can dodge this most people cannot)

> For the first one, the dodge on stealth and their elite removing revealed is not very engaging for the opposing player. GW2 combat relies heavily on punishment for misusing resources, the fact that the DE stealth's after their dodge makes it extremely hard to punish as the end of dodges are usually opening for players.

> Not only that but combine that with the escapablility of thief and their stun breaks with the fact that if they dont kill you they can just cleanse revealed from attacking and from skills like sic em makes counter play hard to find when their burst ends.

> The second case is a bit fringe as most people do not try this combo but it still exists. Quickness will make your DJ 1/4 of a second please do not whine about the fact that you dodged this once or any other dumb anecdote most people cannot react to this.

> As it stands whether im in pvp or wvw i find the best option for fighting deadeyes is to just run away which says a lot about how engaging they are to fight. They are simply too hard to punish for making mistakes, and have even more fail safes than regular thief.

 

1. Yes. I agree that stealth when it's gained via a dodge is way too much. Dodge has become a way to gain stealth that just happens to evade if you need it - it's less punishing to misuse a dodge now. Stealth and dodge need to be separated.

 

2. Counterplay and all that should be given a review across the entire game. It IS a problem with thief, but then, the meta more or less revolves around making your class has as many things your opponent cannot react to right off (instant cast things) or ensuring they can't react to things via other means (Quickness - Agility sigil is a great example of this). It isn't JUST a thief problem, and ripping it away from thief while leaving everything else alone isn't good for long term health of the game nor the thief playerbase.

 

Still, don't forget that even with quickness, there's the projectile travel time. It isn't QUITE as fast as you make it out to be...but I will agree that it's a lil BS.

 

3. Thieves generally have 1-2 stunbreaks and zero stability. One of their stunbreaks, Shadowstep, is a one-or-the-other deal. If you use it as a stunbreak but with to remain in the fight, you lose a very strong escape tool and the condi cleanse. If you use it to cleanse, you lose the stunbreak and escape (since you return to your original position when you get the cleanse). And so on. The only other stunbreak I take is Mercy.

 

 

Unfortunately, fixing all the things people who fight against thieves don't like could easily require game-wide revamps. Class roles are extremely cut and dried compared to other games. So....what do? Can't - well, shouldn't - nerf the only thing that thief is good at (or some might argue, decent at cuz it seems like they're slowly being replaced by powercreeped other classes) without giving them something else to do. I love thief and have no desire to play a class that had one of, or a couple of, the very few things it's good at ripped away and left to be dead in the water.

 

[TheQuickFox.3826]

I have a hard time targetting the deadeyes.

A selected target gets lost so often that I many times just ignore them for the rest of the match as it is not much use to retarget them when selected target gets lost again two seconds later. This makes playing against them a negative experience.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"MrFrusciante.2438" said:

> > @"syszery.1592" said:

> > Can we also nerf Svanir? The charge is too hard to dodge.

>

> ^ he's right. The way he saunters over to you is very menacing. Honesty I'm all for the devs to change it to make him ask permission before he tries to hug you....

>

>

> I think he need to > @"Daishi.6027" said:

>

> > It’s not like they can reliably take a point from you head to head if you out play them.

>

>

> Thank you Sir

>

>

 

May be they should add a larger "whoosh!!" Animation for it

[Bashi.8902]

The problem with deadeye and why its unfun to fight is the perma stealth. Dodge stealths, the elite removes reveal its rediculous. Its not even the damage output since most of its damage is easily avoidable. If u cant dodge a 250ms quickness dj u better start practicing on your reaction time its really easy to react to when u actually focus. One other thing is the knockdown they can do from stealth for a free dj. That on the other hand is usually pretty hard to stunbreak and dodge or block or invuln in time. Other then that the class is fine. Id still rather have a melee thief spec then deadeye just because ranged classes that can deal tons of damage are just unfun in mmos. Daredevil was the perfect thief spec and they should go back to specs like that. No stupid gimmicks. High risk high reward. Thats my 2 cents at least.

 

Also buff core and daredevil. #makethiefgreatagain