Small Change ideas for Deadeye to make them more Healthy

[Elxdark.9702]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > Make binding shadow only available when out of stealth to prevent one shot mechanics that you can't counterplay. Or Casting this skill reveals you for 4 seconds.

> > >

> > > A class that is designed around stealth (depending on the build it's used heavily, moderately or just situationally - but every build can utilize it) should really have a skill that is not usable while stealthed? This does not make sense...

> > >

> > Did you even read what I said? again this skill doesn't have any counterplay if you can't see the animation, it's a 3 second KNOCKDOWN + immobilize from stealth???????? tell me how can I prevent this skill if I don't the the deadeye coming.

>

> so your issue is that the animation is hidden, thats why it shouldnt be used from stealth?

> why not simply ask for a visible animation regardless of thieves visibility?

 

My problem is that you can cast this skill from stealth, removing any counterplay other than awareness or simple luck.

To clarify I don't have any issue with the skill itself, it's the fact you can cast this type of skill from stealth without any kind of punishment.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > Make binding shadow only available when out of stealth to prevent one shot mechanics that you can't counterplay. Or Casting this skill reveals you for 4 seconds.

> > > >

> > > > A class that is designed around stealth (depending on the build it's used heavily, moderately or just situationally - but every build can utilize it) should really have a skill that is not usable while stealthed? This does not make sense...

> > > >

> > > Did you even read what I said? again this skill doesn't have any counterplay if you can't see the animation, it's a 3 second KNOCKDOWN + immobilize from stealth???????? tell me how can I prevent this skill if I don't the the deadeye coming.

> >

> > so your issue is that the animation is hidden, thats why it shouldnt be used from stealth?

> > why not simply ask for a visible animation regardless of thieves visibility?

>

> My problem is that you can cast this skill from stealth, removing any counterplay other than awareness or simple luck.

> To clarify I don't have any issue with the skill itself, it's the fact you can cast this type of skill from stealth without any kind of punishment.

 

why would using a skill itself cause punishment? if you would make the animation visible so people can react to it i do understand but why should using a skill itself cause punishment?

anyway i think the animation itself cannot easily be made visible, so one could split the effect to deal maybe dmg/boonrip instant and knockdown/immob etc. after that delay. so you both see the animation and have an earlier warning in the damage.

however just making it impossible to use while stealthed sounds too lazy of a fix for me.

[saerni.2584]

For me I don’t think Binding Shadow is overtuned except for the boonrip. I think there are plenty of ways to get hit with “big effect out of stealth.” Singling out BS is strange.

 

For example, I can also use Daredevil elite on short cooldown from stealth and that chain can hit pretty hard. Or I can use the staff stealth attack for knockdown and THEN drop into the same for even more CC.

 

Just use a stunbreak.

[syszery.1592]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> Again you're starting to run out of excuses, no matter how hard you try to defend Deadeye or stealth on dodge, it's wrong and it should be changed.

 

I don't need no excuse. Bring back the old deadeye with CB, passive Malice generation, stealth on kneel, Rifle 3 at 4 initiative and DJ on Rifle 4 and I gladly take this. I don't like the changes. I don't like that everything was packed into Binding Shadows. What should I do about it? QQ on forums? I like the sniper themed play style and that's why I adopted to the changes - not because I like all of them.

 

You are just one of these guys who desperately want deadeye to be gone. Maybe you also think that then the Daredevil or core builds will be buffed. But this is not going to happen. Deal with it.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Stealth on dodge is overpowered. Virtually every top thief has come out and said this.

One of the most obvious problems is that like most of what came out with PoF, might on dodge food is completely and totally broken more than anything else ever released as gear/food is concerned (even OG durability runes).

 

Remove might on dodge food and maybe we can get a better look at this spec. But so long as that food exists WvW is broken beyond repair thanks to on-dodge effect synergy with things like DE stealth, Mirage Cloak, ranger's protection on dodge, the holo trait that removes heat on dodge, and so on.

[bluri.2653]

Its hilarious to see all you ppl trying to defend stealth on dodge ???

[syszery.1592]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Its hilarious to see all you ppl trying to defend stealth on dodge ???

 

Mesmers defend their Mirage Cloak, Warrior defend their sustain/damage, Rangers defend their strong access to boon/uptime... So, what do you expect Deadeye players to do? :dizzy:

[Dahkeus.8243]

Honestly, I don't think there's really much problem with the spec outside of dodge on stealth. It's bursty, but it's supposed to be and it's glassy enough without the escape options that DrD and acro builds have. It also doesn't seem to really dominate in upper ends of PvP, even if it is very strong in lower tiers.

 

Just give the build a less cheesy way to access a reasonable amount of stealth (more than before dodge on stealth was added, but a little less than it has now) and it's fine, imo.

 

Binding shadow is a long cd that is only a threat if you're caught without a stun break and Death's Judgement is only a threat if you've either A) let the deadeye sit for long enough to build might/malice or B) been caught at low hp. Personally, I see plenty of counterplay available for both skills, so I don't think changes are needed there. The unblockable aspect of DJ was removed, which was fair.

[Dahkeus.8243]

> @"syszery.1592" said:

> > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > Its hilarious to see all you ppl trying to defend stealth on dodge ???

>

> Mesmers defend their Mirage Cloak, Warrior defend their sustain/damage, Rangers defend their strong access to boon/uptime... So, what do you expect Deadeye players to do? :dizzy:

 

Mirage isn't cheesy like a stealth dodge and your other examples are complaints about builds being too strong, which again, has nothing to do with a badly designed skill. Two wrongs don't make a right and Deadeye players aren't expected to do anything. ANet is expected to something though (kill this cheesy mechanic and supplement a balanced and counter-able stealth to the spec).

[dDuff.3860]

> @"Exitus.3297" said:

> > @"dDuff.3860" said:

> > 3 straight nerfs to deadeye without considerable amount of reasons behind them,

> > Stealth on dodge is not caancerous — can't agree with you on that. Mind provide reasoning, why?

> >

> > You'd better thought of how to change traits that are not used in pvp, to make them compete with "meta" picks.

> > Like:

> > Fire for effect —In addition to its current effect, also effect from your stolen item applied in aoe around you and your marked target.

> >

> > Your suggestions are unjustified and not well-thought. Dislike.

>

> You clearly didn't read my post because I provided several reasons. Also, when I mention removing stealth on dodge, I should have maybe given another suggestion. It would make more sense to tie a stealth into another specific rifle skill, like Death's Retreat with a small internal cooldown. The problem with dodging into stealth is that there is no counterplay to it, as others above me have mentioned. I would also add that for PvP the duration for Reveal be extended by 1 second, because for some reason, Revealed only lasts 3 seconds in sPvP when every other sneak attack applies a 4 second Revealed debuff. This further enforces my point of the Deadeye having too much reward for too little risk or effort _compared to other Thief builds._

>

> Another thing I'm assuming you either glossed over or didn't bother to read:

>

>

>

> > @"Exitus.3297" said:

>

> > Considering the overall reaction Thief players had to the last balance patch, I wanted to throw out some ideas that ANet **could have made** to make burst from Deadeyes more healthy without affecting Thieves as a whole.

>

> I want to make this very clear: I _do not want additional nerfs._ I'm providing ideas that ANet _could_ have implemented if the burst from Deadeyes right from the start we a problem. Instead they opted to nerf Thieves as a whole in that area and it isn't clear why when it was only Deadeyes being overbearing.

 

Counterplay to dodging, is weakness, immobilize.

Counterplay to stealth: reveal.

Counterplay to stealth on dodge: delayed casts (even hitting steal into stealth on dodge is possible).

Considering every class can unleash some sort of these things, you shouldn't say there is no counterplay.

 

If you refuse to play strongest traits, you can always have whatever you're given. There is no reason to come on forums and calling for nerfs without giving anything in return, because a) deadeye isn't OP b) every other class has its own sort of cheese.

 

If you're dieing to deadeye, roll one, find its weakness and timing rollovers, you'll get everything shortly afterwards.

[Dahkeus.8243]

> @"dDuff.3860" said:

> > @"Exitus.3297" said:

> > > @"dDuff.3860" said:

> > > 3 straight nerfs to deadeye without considerable amount of reasons behind them,

> > > Stealth on dodge is not caancerous — can't agree with you on that. Mind provide reasoning, why?

> > >

> > > You'd better thought of how to change traits that are not used in pvp, to make them compete with "meta" picks.

> > > Like:

> > > Fire for effect —In addition to its current effect, also effect from your stolen item applied in aoe around you and your marked target.

> > >

> > > Your suggestions are unjustified and not well-thought. Dislike.

> >

> > You clearly didn't read my post because I provided several reasons. Also, when I mention removing stealth on dodge, I should have maybe given another suggestion. It would make more sense to tie a stealth into another specific rifle skill, like Death's Retreat with a small internal cooldown. The problem with dodging into stealth is that there is no counterplay to it, as others above me have mentioned. I would also add that for PvP the duration for Reveal be extended by 1 second, because for some reason, Revealed only lasts 3 seconds in sPvP when every other sneak attack applies a 4 second Revealed debuff. This further enforces my point of the Deadeye having too much reward for too little risk or effort _compared to other Thief builds._

> >

> > Another thing I'm assuming you either glossed over or didn't bother to read:

> >

> >

> >

> > > @"Exitus.3297" said:

> >

> > > Considering the overall reaction Thief players had to the last balance patch, I wanted to throw out some ideas that ANet **could have made** to make burst from Deadeyes more healthy without affecting Thieves as a whole.

> >

> > I want to make this very clear: I _do not want additional nerfs._ I'm providing ideas that ANet _could_ have implemented if the burst from Deadeyes right from the start we a problem. Instead they opted to nerf Thieves as a whole in that area and it isn't clear why when it was only Deadeyes being overbearing.

>

> Counterplay to dodging, is weakness, immobilize.

> Counterplay to stealth: reveal.

> Counterplay to stealth on dodge: delayed casts (even hitting steal into stealth on dodge is possible).

> Considering every class can unleash some sort of these things, you shouldn't say there is no counterplay.

>

> If you refuse to play strongest traits, you can always have whatever you're given. There is no reason to come on forums and calling for nerfs without giving anything in return, because a) deadeye isn't OP b) every other class has its own sort of cheese.

>

> If you're dieing to deadeye, roll one, find its weakness and timing rollovers, you'll get everything shortly afterwards.

 

You're taking this a bit too literally and arguing that just because you technically there are some counters to dodges doesn't mean that a stealth on dodge is realistically counter-able, particularly when you take into account the frequency of dodges vs the limitations of immob/stuns (weakness is *not* a counter to a dodge). You also have to land a stun/immob before a dodge even starts, meaning only *predicted* dodges are countered. Once a dodge starts, there's nothing you can do to stop the stealth. All immobs, stuns, and yes, even weakness, are evaded once a dodge has begun.

 

Reveal is also a bad argument considering the low cooldown elite that deadeyes have which remove revealed.

 

There has always been some degree of perma-stealth in the game. Here's a few examples along with why they were ok vs why they were not OK:

*D/P stealth* - The burst on this spec was not near what Deadeyes can provide and the thief suffered a damage reduction in combat by spending their initiative on stealth skills. Backstab was good burst, yes, but it was never enhanced by hiding for long periods like a deadeye's mark/malice generation does now. Contrary to stealth on dodge, you could prevent this stealth *while it was happening* with a stun to a thief casting heartseeker in their combo field.

*D/D and P/D stealth* - For the same reasons as above, damage was limited, but you also could prevent a cloak and dagger with evades, blocks, blinds, etc. Just as above, you could also counter the stealth skill *as it was happening* with blocks/evades. Permastealth was only possible on this build by a truly skilled thief dancing around a group of targets and casting CnD at the exact right time so that the cast was begun before stealth ended but with the damage landing after the stealth dropped.

*Condi evade trap builds with trapper runes* - These builds were cheesy as fuck since they relied on dealing damage without breaking stealth and were nerfed for good reason.

 

Compared to the legit perma stealth builds above, a rifle deadeye can maintain permanent stealth without any need for skillful timing of CnD, wherever they want, without any loss of initiative, and the only cost is that they can't generate might through three round burst. Meanwhile, their damage is *increased* on marked targets with might generation. This is less of an issue in sPvP where the space is limited and the clock is ticking, but it does have bigger impacts in WvW where there's no lack of space and no reason to rush a kill. Either way, it's bad design because if a thief gets sloppy and gets caught outside of stealth, you have absolutely no way to prevent them from stealthing again unless you hit them before they dodge with something. Even then, you will likely run out of stuns/immobs before the thief runs out of dodges/stun breaks/cleanses.

 

It's just bad design that rewards sloppy gameplay.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > Play DE without Silent scope equipped,go run in wvw or w/e.Tell me how much fun you'l have with no stealth on dodge,its def not gonna break the spec ! Oh no,not at all.Im sure you'l be pew pewing everything to deth without it !

> > >

> > > It is still fun, no it doesn't break the spec. Just because *you* can't see yourself performing without that crutch doesn't mean other players can't perform without it as well. Traits can be swapped on the fly, especially as a DE that can choose its engagements far more often than not. It's even easier now that the hero panel saves which tab you were on after closing it.

> > >

> > > I enter fights without Silent Scope equipped fairly often when I want that extra 5-6% damage from premed, it just depends on the opponent I'm facing. I won't change out of Silent Scope if I'm facing a Mesmer, Ranger, or Rev, but everything else the 2x stolen abilities that still give stealth even if they don't hit the target is more than enough when combined with 2x stealth from Shadow Meld. And perhaps another stealth from a utility if you wish (I don't use another, the mark abilities and Shadow Meld are enough for me). I don't swap out of it against those 3 because against them it is more useful than the other 2 traits in that tier - *but it is not required to defeat them*.

> >

> > Yes if you fight someone being afk or having no clue how to pvp,sure youl win easy without silent scope, 1on1.I wasnt speaking about "My" personal performance, im looking at it from how the spec is Meant to be played.Its also fun how you only talk about 1on1 experiences stating it wont break the spec while i mentioned WvW where theres ppl running in groups solely.

>

> I'm sorry that you haven't learned how to play without Silent Scope? The spec is meant to be played how *the player wants it to be played.* Obviously you are doing something wrong if you cannot compete without that one trait to hold your hand.

>

> Its also funny how you think I was *only* talking about 1on1 when I made no such claim that these were only 1on1 encounters. It's even funnier that you think WvW is where people rune *solely* in groups, which by the way only weakens your original argument. If you are part of a group then the damage increase from premeditation is often more valuable than Silent Scope, since a single Shadow Meld or Mark Ability is enough to drop target and lose focus. Are you that insecure that you can't take simple criticism and respond in a civil manner? Please try to have a discussion this time, thanks.

 

I play wvw daily,in a group of 2 -3,you know,actual roaming something youre prob not famillair with since i reckon youre on of those running with 5 - 10 only and besides i know what works and what doesn't vs what im mostly fighting when you dont have 5 - 10 people backing you up and its mostly on you only when you have several people trying to focus you.Also dont try to tell me wvw isn't about groups only because i'ts all i see,people even need 10 people to grab a ffing camp.It's not about me not knowing how to play without it,its me saying its useless without since the spec is evolved around it,im sorry if youre to dumb to realize that.

 

I was the one responding in a normal way tbh,you feel salty and feel the need to show that while trying to be smart about it than stopping it at "Please try to have a discussion this time" ? I didn't say anything wrong,are you acting stupid or are you stupid ? .Stop taking shit so serious you fragile little snowflake.

I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings in any way,that is not what want !

[EremiteAngel.9765]

Instead of looking at Deadeyes only, lets not forget that Mesmers and Rangers can do the same unhealthy spike damage from stealth.

The issue isn't specifically a Deadeye-only problem.

Damage from stealth as a whole needs to be looked at, not because the damage is high, but because it comes from stealth with massively reduced tells.

This gives opponents very little reaction time to handle a stealth attack and consequently its damage has to be reduced.

**The main issue is reduced tells resulting in very little reaction time.**

Assuming we keep stealth mechanics as it is, without increasing its tells, then the damage has to go.

This needs to be implemented across all classes and it will make sense to tackle the stealth damage problem as a whole rather than look at specific classes.

[Exitus.3297]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Its hilarious to see all you ppl trying to defend stealth on dodge ???

 

One point of contention I'm seeing from the people defending Stealth on dodge is they seem to think we want to get rid of the stealth and give it nothing in return, when it would be more accurate to say that players want the stealth to be moved somewhere else in the kit away from dodging. Basically, take the stealth away from the dodge, and attach the stealth somewhere else in the kit.

 

 

[Turk.5460]

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > > > > Play DE without Silent scope equipped,go run in wvw or w/e.Tell me how much fun you'l have with no stealth on dodge,its def not gonna break the spec ! Oh no,not at all.Im sure you'l be pew pewing everything to deth without it !

> > > >

> > > > It is still fun, no it doesn't break the spec. Just because *you* can't see yourself performing without that crutch doesn't mean other players can't perform without it as well. Traits can be swapped on the fly, especially as a DE that can choose its engagements far more often than not. It's even easier now that the hero panel saves which tab you were on after closing it.

> > > >

> > > > I enter fights without Silent Scope equipped fairly often when I want that extra 5-6% damage from premed, it just depends on the opponent I'm facing. I won't change out of Silent Scope if I'm facing a Mesmer, Ranger, or Rev, but everything else the 2x stolen abilities that still give stealth even if they don't hit the target is more than enough when combined with 2x stealth from Shadow Meld. And perhaps another stealth from a utility if you wish (I don't use another, the mark abilities and Shadow Meld are enough for me). I don't swap out of it against those 3 because against them it is more useful than the other 2 traits in that tier - *but it is not required to defeat them*.

> > >

> > > Yes if you fight someone being afk or having no clue how to pvp,sure youl win easy without silent scope, 1on1.I wasnt speaking about "My" personal performance, im looking at it from how the spec is Meant to be played.Its also fun how you only talk about 1on1 experiences stating it wont break the spec while i mentioned WvW where theres ppl running in groups solely.

> >

> > I'm sorry that you haven't learned how to play without Silent Scope? The spec is meant to be played how *the player wants it to be played.* Obviously you are doing something wrong if you cannot compete without that one trait to hold your hand.

> >

> > Its also funny how you think I was *only* talking about 1on1 when I made no such claim that these were only 1on1 encounters. It's even funnier that you think WvW is where people rune *solely* in groups, which by the way only weakens your original argument. If you are part of a group then the damage increase from premeditation is often more valuable than Silent Scope, since a single Shadow Meld or Mark Ability is enough to drop target and lose focus. Are you that insecure that you can't take simple criticism and respond in a civil manner? Please try to have a discussion this time, thanks.

>

> I play wvw daily,in a group of 2 -3,you know,actual roaming something youre prob not famillair with since i reckon youre on of those running with 5 - 10 only and besides i know what works and what doesn't vs what im mostly fighting when you dont have 5 - 10 people backing you up and its mostly on you only when you have several people trying to focus you.Also dont try to tell me wvw isn't about groups only because i'ts all i see,people even need 10 people to grab a ffing camp.It's not about me not knowing how to play without it,its me saying its useless without since the spec is evolved around it,im sorry if youre to dumb to realize that.

>

> I was the one responding in a normal way tbh,you feel salty and feel the need to show that while trying to be smart about it than stopping it at "Please try to have a discussion this time" ? I didn't say anything wrong,are you acting stupid or are you stupid ? .Stop taking kitten so serious you fragile little snowflake.

> I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings in any way,that is not what want !

 

You seem hurt. Try to lower the salt content in your posts, otherwise there is no reason to read too far in. Though would you care to explain why you first accused me of only talking about 1v1s, and now accuse me of only roaming with groups of 5-10? You seem to be reading and replying to posts that don't exist. And then you seem to be taking an ultra insecure and super defensive stance against those posts that don't exist.

 

????

 

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> Its also fun how you only talk about 1on1 experiences stating it wont break the spec while i mentioned WvW where theres ppl running in groups solely.

 

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> i reckon youre on of those running with 5 - 10

 

Oof...

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Its hilarious to see all you ppl trying to defend stealth on dodge ???

 

C'mon now, you of all people should know this subsection is no better than any other when it comes to defending OP things despite it being necessary for game health and creating room for future improvements to the class.

 

I think the more laughable yet disappointing part is the fact that ANet seems to have the same mentality these guys do.

[Exitus.3297]

I've been reading through other posts on the this issue, I've been seeing people compare the Deadeye to Core Thief and Daredevil. While I think it is fair to say that Core Thieves and Daredevils have burst/stealth capabilities comparable to the Deadeye, the problem I see with the Deadeye is that is far less punishing for more reward than Core Thieves or Daredevils.

 

Let's say I built my Daredevil the same way a Backstab Deadeye would for WvW purposes: Crit Strikes, Shadow Arts and Daredevil. Besides the Daredevil spec, the traits are exactly the same. For the Daredevil spec, I would go for every trait that offers damage: Havoc Mastery (+7% damage) and Bounding Dodger (10% damage after a dodge; dodging is also a leap finisher). The middle trait is a tossup but I would imagine people would go for the new Staff Mastery without having the daze from Sleight of Hand in Trickery. Either way, I'm getting at least a 7% and 10% damage boost respectively. That is all the Daredevil is getting in terms of damage.

 

Deadeye's get a 10% damage boost on their marked targets. With Malicious intent, their first Backstab will gain another 10% damage boost. Finally, with BQoBK, they gain 4s of Quickness when they apply the Mark, while also gaining an additional 200 Power (just barely over a 7% damage boost if the Deadeye has 2700 power) as well as 200 precision. So the Deadeye gains a bit more in terms of burst damage without even including Quickness, but Quickness is what I think is more important to pay attention to. Even when using the described build, it isn't fair to say that I literally "one-shot" people. It would be more fair to say that my Backstab damages a massive chunk of my target's health while my follow up attacks finish them so quickly that they usually can't react fast enough to stop me. Even if I am put in a position where the opponent survives my burst and starts getting aggressive, I only need to swap back to my rifle and go right back into stealth, then either proceed to finish them off with said rifle from range or wait them out and do it again.

 

Now let's get on with the stealth. With Shadow Arts, my stealth abilities and traits are extended by 1 second. However, this doesn't apply to combo finishers made in smoke fields. This important to understand because I've seen people make the case that Daredevils can also "dodge into stealth." The problems with that are, firstly, that Black Powder still needs to be casted before the DD can enter stealth, which can be interrupted in addition to costing Initiative. If it gets interrupted, I lose that initiative and I'm stuck. Secondly, the extra second of stealth from Shadow Arts does not apply to the combo finisher. Deadeyes can get their stealth-on-dodge using 0 initiative and giving the opponent no opportunity to interrupt it, while also giving them an extra second of stealth over the DD per dodge due to the Shadow Arts affecting Silent Scope. Thirdly, because of the way Bounding Dodger works, an opponent could simply stand in the Black Powder field and potentially remove the DD from stealth or at the very least prevent them from stacking it further for fear of accidentally revealing themselves by damaging their opponent with the AoE that is Bound. Yes, the opponent would take some damage, but the fact they are revealing the DD makes it worth it. The DD has to take extra precautions to ensure that doesn't happen. Deadeye's have no such quarrels. Even if the Deadeye decides to use Black Powder > Heartseeker to enter stealth, they can do so after they have dodged into stealth.

 

The Daredevil being able to stack stealth has two sources of counterplay: being able to be interrupted or being put in a position where stacking stealth further could reveal them, and either scenario could spell out death as they would not have the initiative to do anything else. These are two sources of counterplay the Deadeye doesn't face while also being able to do so more efficiently and with virtually no penalty. I do not buy the argument of using "delayed" skills to hit the Deadeye after they have dodged as a counterplay. Counterplay implies that you can punish the player for using that mechanic. It isn't counterplay just because it is the only play you can make, nevermind the fact that the Deadye is just going to eat it and you can't follow up afterward. Finally, if a player were to set a Revealed debuff on the Daredevil from another source, the odds of that Daredevil surviving are very slim. The Deadeye just needs to pop Shadow Meld and there is no problem.

 

The point I'm making here is that even if people try to mimic the Deadeye in terms of either stealth or burst damage using Core Thief or Daredevil, they simply aren't going to get the results the Deadeye does. Even if they came close, there is at least counterplay which I have mentioned. I am willing to accept that changes that I suggested when I posted the thread may not solve anything, because again, they were intended to only be examples to point out a larger problem. I am also willing to accept the problem is not necessarily as simple as straight up nerfing the Deadeye even more. I have suggested in the past that Shadow Arts is in serious need of being looked at, as it is in a weird limbo where it is useless in some cases but cancerous in others and it almost entirely depends on the game mode. I do think that Shadow Arts is definitely part of the "Perma-stealth" problem in general due to it being a spec designed around the Thief camping in stealth rather than fading in and out of it. However, I also think that the Deadeye exacerbates those same problems while adding more problems in the process.

 

Sorry for the long wall of text but I think that needed to be pointed out.

[Safandula.8723]

Maybe change the silent scope:

If direct damaged while in stealth, reveal for 1 sec.

Also reduce the elite charges to 1

[Dahkeus.8243]

I will concede that Silent Scope is very nice for PvE, but I still think it would be better on skill 4 of rifle. They could even give Death's Judgement an initiative gain in PvE only so that the initiative cost wouldn't hamstring rifle DPS.

[Curennos.9307]

Give thief a new skill - f3 maybe - that gives stealth. Ammo skill. Adjust CD and cast time as needed.

 

Change the current on-roll trait to instead of giving stealth on dodge, give 'lesser stealth' - reduced incoming damage and access to stealth skills or something, but they can still be seen.

[kash.9213]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Give thief a new skill - f3 maybe - that gives stealth. Ammo skill. Adjust CD and cast time as needed.

>

> Change the current on-roll trait to instead of giving stealth on dodge, give 'lesser stealth' - reduced incoming damage and access to stealth skills or something, but they can still be seen.

That's basically having a short duration boon to modify damage and if we can be seen, we can be focused so health or something will have to be adjusted.

 

[Curennos.9307]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > Give thief a new skill - f3 maybe - that gives stealth. Ammo skill. Adjust CD and cast time as needed.

> >

> > Change the current on-roll trait to instead of giving stealth on dodge, give 'lesser stealth' - reduced incoming damage and access to stealth skills or something, but they can still be seen.

> That's basically having a short duration boon to modify damage and if we can be seen, we can be focused so health or something will have to be adjusted.

>

 

Er...what? No? That's the entire point of the reduced incoming damage - both so you CAN take some focus, and you'll still have the stealth...it'll just have (Maybe) a lil bit of cast time, instead of a p much uncounterable evade into stealth,

[Exitus.3297]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Give thief a new skill - f3 maybe - that gives stealth. Ammo skill. Adjust CD and cast time as needed.

 

I definitely like the concept but I feel like that was the whole point of making it so the stolen skills offer stealth after reaching 5 Malice.

 

One other thing they I think they were trying to achieve with Silent Scope is the fantasy of taking a shot, moving silently, then taking another shot. This is actually what real life snipers are trained to do.

 

One idea I've toyed with (and please take this with a grain of salt) is Silent Scope tying a stealth into _exiting_ Kneel by pressing 5. It already removes movement impairing conditions (a fact some people seem to forget), but we also know that some forms of CC will cause the Deadeye to stop Kneeling. They could make it so that the Deadeye only gains the stealth if they exit Kneel by pressing 5, and that no other methods of exiting kneel will grant stealth. It would essentially function like the old Kneel, only applying stealth when leaving instead of entering. They would have to put some kind of failsafe to prevent excessive stealth stacking using this this method (that's what old Deadeye's used to do) but I could see that happening.

 

Just an idea... Please don't read too much into it.

 

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Give thief a new skill - f3 maybe - that gives stealth. Ammo skill. Adjust CD and cast time as needed.

 

i asked for something similar, tho i wanted to keep the endurance cost on it instead of a cd. not sure if a cooldown is stronger or endurance. for me when it is an additonal skill that doesnt share the spot with anything, then cooldown is much stronger than a resource cost. the good thing this would do is : interruptable, deadeye doesnt need to change position to gain stealth, possibly faster than a dodge roll.

 

 

[Safandula.8723]

If u completely removed silent scope, de would still have plenty of stealth access.

Also gaining stealth by 1 button press is stupid and uninteractive