So It Doesn't Look Like Platforming was the Issue with HoT

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

HoT was awesome. It was about survival in hostile, unknown jungle that you had to slowly master and explore and it delivered on that premise 100%!

 

PoF is the safe play from a-net - core tyrian maps 2.0, mounts, less masteries, no new WvW map. I'll stay my judgement for now (because atm i'm mostly spvping) but my view of "It's all about content" vs what HoT brought with it's launch is "We shall see...".

[Shena Fu.5792]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> And getting around Path of Fire is nightmare without all the mounts unlocked, and it's impossible to 100% all the zones without unlocking most mount mastery abilities. On the other hand in Heart of Thorns you required only a fraction of the mastery unlocks to 100% all the zones.

> Getting some pois, vistas and mastery points required the platforming and there similar things in Path of Fire that require even more platforming.

> To 100% Path of Fire you must do more platforming than to 100% Heart of Thorns

 

Exactly. HOT really only requires updraft to get everywhere. The rest are for convenience.

 

People are already complaining about not enough mastery points to unlock certain mounts. They can't even stand to be forced through the story to acquire easy mastery points. Not having specific mounts then prevents them from advancing and completing the maps. What irony. They already made it as easy as can be, but for some people that's still not easy enough.

 

FYI the springer (rabbit) has atrocious control. You'd need perfect control to not mess up the jumps. Even just turning around and positioning is super frustrating.

[killermanjaro.5670]

It has surprised me, the amount of people that complained about HoT because of its verticality, layered maps and platforming, yet they all seem to be praising PoF when it's actually got the same.

 

PoF has lots of verticality and platforming, yet because they haven't actually used the layers in the map to display it I don't think a lot of people have realised.

 

A lot of people I've spoken to even seemed to hate Dry Top because of its platforming and trying to use crystals to navigate it, yet they love PoF despite the fact the maps are similar in platforming to it and using the mount abilities is basically the same thing as using crystals.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @killermanjaro.5670 said:

> It has surprised me, the amount of people that complained about HoT because of its verticality, layered maps and platforming, yet they all seem to be praising PoF when it's actually got the same.

 

I think they are still in the Crystal Oasis which doesn't have vertical gameplay. Wait for them to reach Desolation and it will become the new Tangled Depths :dizzy:

[Zoltreez.6435]

i HATE the platforming in HoT

I Love the Platforming in PoF

 

HoT feelt like they Put platforming on platforms to platform you into platforming to be able to platfrom to get gated by events that lead to more platforming that ends up being a platform that you platformed to from the very begining.... the entire damn expansion was about Platforming literaly....

 

PoF feels like Platforming done right

PoF is not Overbloated by Platforming that leads to more platforming

PoF does not have 50% of platforming locked behind events or elite mobs

PoF Platforming is not a giant over complicated Labirint where you literaly need to paint a Map in your Brain about all the platforms and how where they lead you on the maps that have 10000 levels upwards/downwards in a Jungle that is Also a labirint by itself.......also there isnt 90000 hostile mobs constantly in your face while trying to platform...

[Glacial.9516]

I see many people say the mobs in PoF are considerably easier than HoT. Myself, I find the HoT mobs to be a good bit easier than PoFs, although the attack and aggro range in PoF is certainly a factor, adjusting to mob mechanics as well. In a few months I'll have to reevaluate my opinion.

 

The HoT maps are faster to navigate once you have masteries (and now with mounts should be considerably faster), however they are confusing and the map isn't as helpful as in a flat map. PoF maps feel too mob-dense for me. I get frustrated traveling across them because there are mobs everywhere so you can't stop to explore the little areas or gather nodes without being unable to mount again.

 

I don't recall a great deal of platforming in HoT. I don't know where this complaint came from. Maybe adventures? Or if you were trying to navigate without masteries? Getting into VB Canopy during the day? Certain mastery points/jumping puzzles? I think PoF is similar there's only a few places that really require platforming, but most of it -does- require a mount so you'd best be sure not to get aggro'd in between mount switches (thankfully some of these locations don't have mobs).

 

Now that's not to say I don't enjoy PoF or that I dislike PoF. Not at all. However I do think a lot of people are comparing their first experience with HoT with their first experience with PoF. Not an unreasonable thing to do, but remember we had an elite spec going into PoF (sometimes both), we had already adjusted to the significantly increased mob difficulty. HoT was a shock in the increase in difficulty, while PoF maintains about the same.

[particlepinata.9865]

In my opinion Hot maps where a navigating chaos, and Pof maps are not. They have much more space between everything and a good balance of Horizontal and Vertical. The maps are build in a way they have much more freedom to go where you want. Next to that Hot had (has) many map wide long Meta events which interfered with relaxing exploration of the map. I was no fan of Hot, but am a big fan of Pof (for many more reasons then this alone). Mounts are a more emersive relaxing kind of movement then the old jumping/gliding etc in my experience, also a plus.

[flog.3485]

Truth of the matter is that HoT exploration is very meta/story/event driven. You go deeper into the jungle as you help the frogs and the pact army. And only then you get a hang of how the map is structured.

 

In PoF, you don't rely on events/story/metas. You can reach the third map even if you have not done the story to get the bunny. And that is why some would say that PoF is better than HoT.

 

It has nothing to do with platforming. And frankly I like both expansion for what it brings to the game personally. I can't understand why people should complain about exploration in HoT relying on on events if the main component/strength of the game is and has always been about playing/completing the events in a zone.

[Vayne.8563]

> @flog.3485 said:

> Truth of the matter is that HoT exploration is very meta/story/event driven. You go deeper into the jungle as you help the frogs and the pact army. And only then you get a hang of how the map is structured.

>

> In PoF, you don't rely on events/story/metas. You can reach the third map even if you have not done the story to get the bunny. And that is why some would say that PoF is better than HoT.

>

> It has nothing to do with platforming. And frankly I like both expansion for what it brings to the game personally. I can't understand why people should complain about exploration in HoT relying on on events if the main component/strength of the game is and has always been about playing/completing the events in a zone.

 

What you're saying is true, but has nothing to do with what I'm saying. It's factually true that some people went into great detail to complain specifically about platforming and those are the people I'm addressing. There are obviously other complaints. And there are probably other threads to address those complaints.

 

Simply put, more than one person has said HoT is just a platforming game, and platforming has no place in MMOs. I'm wondering how many of those same people are now happily playing PoF.

[Tachenon.5270]

If 'platforming' in GW2 was a dessert, then the 'platforming' in HoT would be half-eaten blob a la mode and the 'platforming' in PoF would be winterberry pie with whipped cream topping, and there would be people on the forums proclaiming there's no difference because they are both just (ahem) desserts.

 

Uh, 'kitten cream'? Seriously, word filter? Hah!

[Deaths.9165]

Well i was frustrated in Hot but am enteryl happy about POF. Main problem in Hot was that u had to plattform to unlock masteries. So u dont need to Platform anymore. I hate PLatforming.

 

Good Part about Pof is u can Platform as u wish. Or u can unlock masteries without Platforming and bypass the Plattforms. PPl have a choice what they wish for.

 

And good point of Pof are the Mounts. PPl can now choose between Platforming or just use a Mount and bypass the Platforming on any Map.

 

Navigating through Hot maps are really easy now.

 

Their is a blance between mini games and Masterie Points. They are not hidden behind timegated mini games u are forced to do to get the necessary mastries.

 

Story is not gated behind masteries in Pof ( yes it is in Pof as well but u dont even see the gates probelry). I can walk smothly through the story.

 

PPl are free to act as they wish for. And are not forced to play a playstyle that doesnt suit them.

 

After 5 years they did alot of things right. They have even thought of Farmers like me with bountys. And with POF and Mounts. They have brought alot of Balance into the game we hadnt before.

[Rennie.6750]

Yes it was. People didn't like that flavour of platforming but like the mounts one, because it's a much more traditional one, and content designed around it is far easier to understand but not easy to do, mind you, and that's the best kind of design you can ever get from a game. Most people are bad at full 3D games that require to think about verticality, but a lot of people do understand the concepts of up/down/forward/leap. That's why HoT was poorly received, and this is why PoF works so well so far.

 

It seems that ANet would benefit from hiring a few doctors or psychiatrists, they obviously have no clue about what humans like and dislikes and how brains work, but this time around they got lucky and got it right.

[MrRuin.9740]

By looking at the responses here, people just seem to want effortless content they can breeze through and don't have to think about too much.

 

> @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

>The big mistake ANet made with HoT was assuming that most players were actually able to play the game. Instead, what players really wanted was to not have to bother with analysing the environment, as most people are fantastically awful at any puzzle which requires spacial awareness. I personally really enjoyed that aspect of HoT; keeping a mental map of Tangled Depths on my first run through for instance, was a challenge indeed! PoF is far simpler in this regard - yes, there are jumps involved, but in all cases you can see where you are going, and the actual puzzles are incredibly simple to the point of insulting to players that are even halfway competent.

I completely agree. PoF felt like it was dumbed down. HoT maps were a challenge that when you overcame it, you knew those maps very well by the end. PoF maps, I breezed through in straight lines going from point A to point B.

[Vayne.8563]

> @Rennie.6750 said:

> Yes it was. People didn't like that flavour of platforming but like the mounts one, because it's a much more traditional one, and content designed around it is far easier to understand but not easy to do, mind you, and that's the best kind of design you can ever get from a game. Most people are bad at full 3D games that require to think about verticality, but a lot of people do understand the concepts of up/down/forward/leap. That's why HoT was poorly received, and this is why PoF works so well so far.

>

> It seems that ANet would benefit from hiring a few doctors or psychiatrists, they obviously have no clue about what humans like and dislikes and how brains work, but this time around they got lucky and got it right.

 

I'd say probably half the people liked HoT though. When you say people didn't like it, well, that's always the case. We already see people saying, even in this thread, that they liked HoT more than PoF. Hell I'm one of those people. I thought the zone design in HoT was better, or at least more interestingly complex.

 

Anet doesn't have to hire a doctor to show that you have an opinion. That doesn't make that opinion universal or even a majority

[Dante.1763]

To be honest while i prefer HoT, it wasnt the platforming that turned me away from PoF. I *love* the fact we went back to elona, but i really dont like how big the maps, and how little there actually is out there. I understand its supposed to be a desert, and mounts are going to be made to be required..but its soooo bland.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting _across_ PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

> >

> > Another thing is that the platforming in PoF is much more forgiving. There is basically no fall damage, and in most cases if you miss a jump then it only sets you back 10-30 seconds work getting back up, whereas in HoT there were a lot of glide puzzles that would set you back several minutes if you dropped.

> >

> > Also, the navigation is much more linear, you don't have to worry as much about how to find a way from one layer of a 3D map to another, it's basically just "cross a 2D map, and then maybe move up or down a bit when you get there."

>

> Not really buying this since I didn't have to platform at all to cross any HoT map. Not even a little. Here you have hero points and vistas that require actual platforming. Skill based jumping not just jumping on a mushroom that puts you exactly where you need to be.

 

I disagree, although maybe it comes down to what you consider "platforming." Do you consider having to use gliding efficiently to reach a location to be part of "platforming," or just precise hopping around? Take Verdant Brink, as an example. With no masteries, that map is a complete _mess_ to navigate, with massive canyons all over the place, requiring you to find ramps and bridges to reach where you want to be. Again, the issue is not that it requires a lot of hand-eye skill to _accomplish,_ but that it requires a lot of orientation and effort to get where you want to go. _most_ PoF maps are pretty direct, you just move in a straight line to your objective. The Desolation is probably most complicated, and Highlands has some issues before you get the Springer, but beyond that, it's fairly simple.

 

It's also worth keeping in mind that HoT Masteries took a lot longer to grind out, I mean I already have all my PoF ones aside from a few Griffon ones, but in HoT I seem to remember it taking me longer than this to get the gliding fully mastered. It at least felt that way (one of the helpful things on PoF was to put the most useful abilities in third slot, and the forth are more QoL elements). Without maxed gliding, mushrooms, Wallows, etc., fully navigating the maps was a much bigger hassle.

 

And sure, PoF Vistas and Masteries often require platforming elements, but so too did HoT. I mean, think of VB alone. There were several vital HPs that were way up in the canopy, only reachable through a handful of methods to even get up there, and then either Advanced Gliding or very skillful planning. One of the Masteries was even in a full-on jumping puzzle inside a ship.

 

I actually give ANet's HoT designers credit for building an intricate Metroidvania style unlocking system that really rewarding you for completing masteries, and slowly ramped up the difficulty, unfortunately only a smaller portion of the community actually wanted something that complicated, and the majority seemed to just want to be able to get at the HPs and Masteries they needed to max out their characters and didn't want all that stuff in the way.

 

Really PoF's platforming is rarely difficult. It requires a little trial and error, but with very low punishment factor, so who cares? Anyoen can faceroll it eventually. Now there are exceptions, the JP in that one story mission, the Jackal Heart, that one area in southern Oasis with the Jackal portals, the broken pyramid, etc., there are a few places where you actually have to be halfway decent at jumping, but these are largely skippable for most of the game, and if it's an emergency, you can always get a port.

 

>I've maintained that platforming has been in the game since launch and it's been relatively popular.

 

This is true, but it's mostly been a SIDE thing, an element that players didn't need to participate in much just to clear the story, for example. Remember that JPs weren't even originally in the game, they were little side projects of certain devs until they decided they were cool enough to make them official. The last game didn't even have jumping, apparently.

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting _across_ PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

> > >

> > > Another thing is that the platforming in PoF is much more forgiving. There is basically no fall damage, and in most cases if you miss a jump then it only sets you back 10-30 seconds work getting back up, whereas in HoT there were a lot of glide puzzles that would set you back several minutes if you dropped.

> > >

> > > Also, the navigation is much more linear, you don't have to worry as much about how to find a way from one layer of a 3D map to another, it's basically just "cross a 2D map, and then maybe move up or down a bit when you get there."

> >

> > Not really buying this since I didn't have to platform at all to cross any HoT map. Not even a little. Here you have hero points and vistas that require actual platforming. Skill based jumping not just jumping on a mushroom that puts you exactly where you need to be.

>

> I disagree, although maybe it comes down to what you consider "platforming." Do you consider having to use gliding efficiently to reach a location to be part of "platforming," or just precise hopping around? Take Verdant Brink, as an example. With no masteries, that map is a complete _mess_ to navigate, with massive canyons all over the place, requiring you to find ramps and bridges to reach where you want to be. Again, the issue is not that it requires a lot of hand-eye skill to _accomplish,_ but that it requires a lot of orientation and effort to get where you want to go. _most_ PoF maps are pretty direct, you just move in a straight line to your objective. The Desolation is probably most complicated, and Highlands has some issues before you get the Springer, but beyond that, it's fairly simple.

>

> It's also worth keeping in mind that HoT Masteries took a lot longer to grind out, I mean I already have all my PoF ones aside from a few Griffon ones, but in HoT I seem to remember it taking me longer than this to get the gliding fully mastered. It at least felt that way (one of the helpful things on PoF was to put the most useful abilities in third slot, and the forth are more QoL elements). Without maxed gliding, mushrooms, Wallows, etc., fully navigating the maps was a much bigger hassle.

>

> And sure, PoF Vistas and Masteries often require platforming elements, but so too did HoT. I mean, think of VB alone. There were several vital HPs that were way up in the canopy, only reachable through a handful of methods to even get up there, and then either Advanced Gliding or very skillful planning. One of the Masteries was even in a full-on jumping puzzle inside a ship.

>

> I actually give ANet's HoT designers credit for building an intricate Metroidvania style unlocking system that really rewarding you for completing masteries, and slowly ramped up the difficulty, unfortunately only a smaller portion of the community actually wanted something that complicated, and the majority seemed to just want to be able to get at the HPs and Masteries they needed to max out their characters and didn't want all that stuff in the way.

>

> Really PoF's platforming is rarely difficult. It requires a little trial and error, but with very low punishment factor, so who cares? Anyoen can faceroll it eventually. Now there are exceptions, the JP in that one story mission, the Jackal Heart, that one area in southern Oasis with the Jackal portals, the broken pyramid, etc., there are a few places where you actually have to be halfway decent at jumping, but these are largely skippable for most of the game, and if it's an emergency, you can always get a port.

>

> >I've maintained that platforming has been in the game since launch and it's been relatively popular.

>

> This is true, but it's mostly been a SIDE thing, an element that players didn't need to participate in much just to clear the story, for example. Remember that JPs weren't even originally in the game, they were little side projects of certain devs until they decided they were cool enough to make them official. The last game didn't even have jumping, apparently.

>

>

 

Still not buying it. You make it sound like you need all the hot masteries to get around when you in reality need very few of them. The amount of "precise" gliding you need is really really small. Take VB. There's very little you can't get if you wait for night and choppers. They take you up to all the points of interest up top that you need to get. There's really very little you need to worry about precision gliding in VB. If you aren't willing to take the time to learn the map,. of course it will seem hard. People want easy maps. They want giant green arrows they can follow around without putting any thought into how to get from one place to another. They want to follow an arrow or a dulfy guide. Well they can. There are plenty of guides to those zones.

 

But some of us like the challenge of figuring out where and how to get places and that's a valid play style as well.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> People want easy maps. They want giant green arrows they can follow around without putting any thought into how to get from one place to another. They want to follow an arrow or a dulfy guide. Well they can. There are plenty of guides to those zones.

 

_Exactly._

 

And those guides took a while to become available, leaving a lot of people with poor first impressions of the HoT maps.

 

And I think the PoF maps have a lot more exploration too, it's just that the exploration seems less vital to unlocking core mechanics, it's less of a barrier to pressing forward, and more of an optional sidequest.

 

 

[Crise.9401]

> @Astralporing.1957 said:

> > @Palador.2170 said:

> > The real problem in HoT's maps was figuring out how to get from Point A to Point B. In PoF the path may be more complex, but it's usually much easier to figure out where the path is and how you're supposed to travel it.

>

> Exactly. Also, unlike with HoT, for the most part (barring some parts of Desolation), that path is not only more clear, but also way easier (and faster) to travel.

 

It also helps that the minimap is useful in PoF, as opposed to borderline useless at times in HoT (I am looking at you Tangled Depths, but other HoT maps had similar problems in places as well).

 

 

[Nikal.4921]

> @particlepinata.9865 said:

> In my opinion Hot maps where a navigating chaos, and Pof maps are not. They have much more space between everything and a good balance of Horizontal and Vertical. The maps are build in a way they have much more freedom to go where you want. Next to that Hot had (has) many map wide long Meta events which interfered with relaxing exploration of the map. I was no fan of Hot, but am a big fan of Pof (for many more reasons then this alone). Mounts are a more emersive relaxing kind of movement then the old jumping/gliding etc in my experience, also a plus.

I would love to feel this way about PoF. I wanted very much to feel this way about PoF. But it seems like most of my time is spent frantically trying to get from point A to point B without getting dismounted and mobbed and praying I can change mounts for the upcoming obstacle without getting mobbed and forced into combat. Nowhere is safe, I can't relax for a moment. I take my life in my hands if I open the map for a look-see. The horizontal vs vertical would be okay if it weren't for the unrelenting stress of it all. I'm sticking with it for for full map exploration (I only have Desolation- ugh- left to finish). I'll likely try to get some achievements finished after that. I'm unsure at this point if I'm willing to go through this all over again with an alt (of which I have many).

 

[Djinn.9245]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

>

> In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

>

> I like both expansions, myself, for completely different reasons.

 

I disagree that PoF has more platforming than HoT. I spend most of my time running along flat surfaces.

[Djinn.9245]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting _across_ PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

>

> Another thing is that the platforming in PoF is much more forgiving. There is basically no fall damage, and in most cases if you miss a jump then it only sets you back 10-30 seconds work getting back up, whereas in HoT there were a lot of glide puzzles that would set you back several minutes if you dropped.

>

> Also, the navigation is much more linear, you don't have to worry as much about how to find a way from one layer of a 3D map to another, it's basically just "cross a 2D map, and then maybe move up or down a bit when you get there."

 

Great summation - I heartily agree.

[Djinn.9245]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting _across_ PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

>

> Only that's not true, simply getting across Heart of Thorns maps requires zero platforming.

 

In the platforming games I've seen, there are mushrooms that bounce you upward, there are tubes that take you from one part of the map to another, there are air jets that shoot you up in the air, etc. These are all part of "platforming" and all necessary to navigate HoT maps. Not sure what kind of platforming games you are talking about.

[Argol Vazin.3061]

here is my take on it. Platforming in HoT is more like a confusing jumping puzzle that in some cases looks like an Escher painting (TD)

PoF is more natural platforming, that isn't a puzzle to figure out.

 

Platformer is a catch all term and this is the issue of this entire thread. OP is using it as a catch-all term ignoring the very reasons why people hated it in HoT and like it in PoF. People hated it in HoT because the platforming was frustrating due to the kitten map design in HoT.

 

As for maddoctor. You are hung up on the idea of "no platforming to traverse the map" you are just being stubbornly blind to the actual point. it isn't about simply crossing the map. it is about accessing the content of the map, HPs, Masteries etc.

[Vayne.8563]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > People want easy maps. They want giant green arrows they can follow around without putting any thought into how to get from one place to another. They want to follow an arrow or a dulfy guide. Well they can. There are plenty of guides to those zones.

>

> _Exactly._

>

> And those guides took a while to become available, leaving a lot of people with poor first impressions of the HoT maps.

>

> And I think the PoF maps have a lot more exploration too, it's just that the exploration seems less vital to unlocking core mechanics, it's less of a barrier to pressing forward, and more of an optional sidequest.

>

>

Well I did it without guides and without much problem and I'm no min/maxer and I'm not the best player. The problem a lot of people don't like to think when they play games. I attribute this to years of WOWness in MMOs. People haven't played RPGs and just into MMOs and they want to follow an arrow to a start to get a reward. And I 'm not in favor of that kind of play nor in favor of encouraging it.

 

If people just took the buffs in game, they'd have leveled their masteries fast enough. It really REALLY didn't take that long. I had most of the masteries I needed to traverse the jungle on the first day. I had gliding, updrafts and jumping mushroom in the first hours. No, there are too many people who don't want to progress through content, they just want it done.