So It Doesn't Look Like Platforming was the Issue with HoT

[Zok.4956]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

>

> In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

 

GW2 has platforming since it start. Everyone remembers the past differently. I think your memory only remembers some things but not the "whole truth" and that is why your conclusion based on that is wrong. There were a lot of people that liked things about HoT. And there were a lot of people that disliked things about HoT.

 

From my memory the two issues with the most complaints regarding to platforming were:

 

1. maps have too much layers that are above another and the map and mini-map not really help. Getting from A to B is complicated and needs a lot of special "jump and run" skills aka platforming in combination with a lot of strong mobs in the way. So it felt frustrating for a lot of people.

2. the adventures (which are mini-platform games) are not optional, but mandatory to complete in silver/gold for some achievements/mastery points/collections. This felt frustrating for people who are not good at these adventures. Also the combination with the not-helpful game-engine (more skill lag when map events happen, terrrain glitches, etc. etc. ...) made it quite frustrating for many players.

 

Both issues are adressed in PoF. Which results in more fun and less frustration for a lot of players. Which is a good thing.

 

[Zoltreez.6435]

> @Zok.4956 said:

> > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

> >

> > In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

>

> GW2 has platforming since it start. Everyone remembers the past differently. I think your memory only remembers some things but not the "whole truth" and that is why your conclusion based on that is wrong. There were a lot of people that liked things about HoT. And there were a lot of people that disliked things about HoT.

>

> From my memory the two issues with the most complaints regarding to platforming were:

>

> 1. maps have too much layers that are above another and the map and mini-map not really help. Getting from A to B is complicated and needs a lot of special "jump and run" skills aka platforming in combination with a lot of strong mobs in the way. So it felt frustrating for a lot of people.

> 2. the adventures (which are mini-platform games) are not optional, but mandatory to complete in silver/gold for some achievements/mastery points/collections. This felt frustrating for people who are not good at these adventures. Also the combination with the not-helpful game-engine (more skill lag when map events happen, terrrain glitches, etc. etc. ...) made it quite frustrating for many players.

>

> Both issues are adressed in PoF. Which results in more fun and less frustration for a lot of players. Which is a good thing.

>

 

this guy gets it.....

[rapthorne.7345]

The biggest difference between HoT and PoF is that the effort required to navigate maps is much lower. In tangled depths, for example, unless you are intimately familiar with the map and it's various height tiers, it's incredibly easy to get lost or stuck, and get gang banged by a mass of angry plants.

 

In Path of Fire, navigation is simple, easy and fun rather than complicated, difficult and stressful. The maps are much easier to traverse, and you can easily avoid trouble if you want to, where you couldn't in HoT because of the sheer volume of mobs on every map.

 

This is less an issue of "platforming in GW2 sucks" and more an issues of "the HoT implementation of platforming sucks, and ANet learned from their mistakes to make PoF platforming a much more enjoyable experience".

 

There is no blanket wrong or right

[Zok.4956]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > >Vayne's not bringing any of those up or discounting them or dismissing them. He's simply saying that there was a ton of specific criticism about something that people called "platforming" and that apparently, since people like the sort of platforming that is in PoF, that "platforming" wasn't the right word to describe it.

> >

> > What would the value be in having a semantic argument like that?

>

> Sigh, it's not a "semantic" argument about "what does platforming mean". It's a discussion about what people actually meant with their criticism when they chose the word. Vayne's point (and perhaps it wasn't made clearly) is that

> * There were tons of complaints regarding HoT that used the word platforming

> * PoF also includes platform-like mechanics, arguably even more so than PoF,

> * Why aren't people complaining about it here?

>

> Vayne contends that the issue wasn't "platforming" that people were frustrated with, but something else.

 

Of course "platforming" was not an issue that was isolated from the rest of the game. Because the platforming was not isolated from the rest of the game. So whenever people complained about "platforming" they (almost) always complained about how and how much this platforming was interacting whith other game elements in combination with them.

 

As Paracelsus once said: "Only the dose makes the poison".

 

GW2 has platforming elements from the very first start. At the core the critcism is not (and never was) about platforming yes or no, but about "how much" and "in what way".

 

P.S. If Vayne thinks, that some people back in the days in his discussions were kind of hypocrites, because they disliked HoT platforming and now probable like PoF platforming, he should have told them per email, but not made a forum thread about it.

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

> @Zok.4956 said:

> > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

> >

> > In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

>

> GW2 has platforming since it start. Everyone remembers the past differently. I think your memory only remembers some things but not the "whole truth" and that is why your conclusion based on that is wrong. There were a lot of people that liked things about HoT. And there were a lot of people that disliked things about HoT.

>

> From my memory the two issues with the most complaints regarding to platforming were:

>

> 1. maps have too much layers that are above another and the map and mini-map not really help. Getting from A to B is complicated and needs a lot of special "jump and run" skills aka platforming in combination with a lot of strong mobs in the way. So it felt frustrating for a lot of people.

> 2. the adventures (which are mini-platform games) are not optional, but mandatory to complete in silver/gold for some achievements/mastery points/collections. This felt frustrating for people who are not good at these adventures. Also the combination with the not-helpful game-engine (more skill lag when map events happen, terrrain glitches, etc. etc. ...) made it quite frustrating for many players.

>

> Both issues are adressed in PoF. Which results in more fun and less frustration for a lot of players. Which is a good thing.

>

 

Nothing wrong with my memory. Since I had those conversations and you didn't, you might not be expected to remember them. I remember the conversations in great detail. Obviously they bothered me at the time, or I wouldn't have remembered them. I'm not interested in the "most" complaints. I'm addressing a specific complaint I saw. You saying there are other complaints is frankly off topic.

 

That's not what this post is about. It's addressed to the people who claim HoT had platforming (using things like jumping mushrooms as an example).

[Vayne.8563]

> @Zok.4956 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > >Vayne's not bringing any of those up or discounting them or dismissing them. He's simply saying that there was a ton of specific criticism about something that people called "platforming" and that apparently, since people like the sort of platforming that is in PoF, that "platforming" wasn't the right word to describe it.

> > >

> > > What would the value be in having a semantic argument like that?

> >

> > Sigh, it's not a "semantic" argument about "what does platforming mean". It's a discussion about what people actually meant with their criticism when they chose the word. Vayne's point (and perhaps it wasn't made clearly) is that

> > * There were tons of complaints regarding HoT that used the word platforming

> > * PoF also includes platform-like mechanics, arguably even more so than PoF,

> > * Why aren't people complaining about it here?

> >

> > Vayne contends that the issue wasn't "platforming" that people were frustrated with, but something else.

>

> Of course "platforming" was not an issue that was isolated from the rest of the game. Because the platforming was not isolated from the rest of the game. So whenever people complained about "platforming" they (almost) always complained about how and how much this platforming was interacting whith other game elements in combination with them.

>

> As Paracelsus once said: "Only the dose makes the poison".

>

> GW2 has platforming elements from the very first start. At the core the critcism is not (and never was) about platforming yes or no, but about "how much" and "in what way".

>

> P.S. If Vayne thinks, that some people back in the days in his discussions were kind of hypocrites, because they disliked HoT platforming and now probable like PoF platforming, he should have told them per email, but not made a forum thread about it.

>

>

 

Sorry but if half a dozen people wrote it, then in fact, probably more than half a dozen think it. I don't believe anyone should be the ultimate arbiter of what should and shouldn't be a forum post. However, if you feel I've broken forum rules by making this post, you should report it to the moderator.

 

I've already said that Guild Wars 2 had platforming in it from the start. The people who complained about it talked about how HoT made it so prevalent that it was unplayable to them. I'm sorry you don't believe this is worth discussing but I believe it is

[Etterwyn.5263]

> @Nowaki.2136 said:

> Well i didnt had to google "how to get to X point of interest" on pof, unlike hot where to get to point B, you had to start at the opposite side of the map (tangled, im looking at you) which was really frustrating needed to find extern help to reach to a regular place in the map.

 

Yes it's nice not to have to hit up YouTube or Dulfy for nearly every single POI, Vista, or mastery point.

[Vayne.8563]

> @Etterwyn.5263 said:

> > @Nowaki.2136 said:

> > Well i didnt had to google "how to get to X point of interest" on pof, unlike hot where to get to point B, you had to start at the opposite side of the map (tangled, im looking at you) which was really frustrating needed to find extern help to reach to a regular place in the map.

>

> Yes it's nice not to have to hit up YouTube or Dulfy for nearly every single POI, Vista, or mastery point.

 

It saddens me that people feel they have to.

 

[Bish.8627]

I say it time and time again. HoT was over complex. It's like they wanted to try something new, add more complexity to the game, but I feel it backfired. PoF maps are more like the original maps, which is why they work. I will say though, the amount of springer spots is a bit irritating.

[Vayne.8563]

> @Bish.8627 said:

> I say it time and time again. HoT was over complex. It's like they wanted to try something new, add more complexity to the game, but I feel it backfired. PoF maps are more like the original maps, which is why they work. I will say though, the amount of springer spots is a bit irritating.

 

I don't feel it was over complex, and I'm sure many others didn't either. I maintain the reason it "backfired" (and I'm not even sure it did) was because too many people really didn't know how to play the game to begin with. Running around doing the champ train in Queensdale to level till 80 doesn't prepare you for end game content and HoT was meant to be end game content in the same way Eye of the North did. It separated the wheat from the chaff so to speak. If you didn't play harder content and ran around core Tyria using an ineffective build, when you got to HoT, those weaknesses were exposed.

 

I'm not sure why having some maps with greater complexity is a bad thing. For some they're the best maps in the game.

[otto.5684]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> > @otto.5684 said:

> > > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > i HATE the platforming in HoT

> > > I Love the Platforming in PoF

> > >

> > > HoT feelt like they Put platforming on platforms to platform you into platforming to be able to platfrom to get gated by events that lead to more platforming that ends up being a platform that you platformed to from the very begining.... the entire kitten expansion was about Platforming literaly....

> > >

> > > PoF feels like Platforming done right

> > > PoF is not Overbloated by Platforming that leads to more platforming

> > > PoF does not have 50% of platforming locked behind events or elite mobs

> > > PoF Platforming is not a giant over complicated Labirint where you literaly need to paint a Map in your Brain about all the platforms and how where they lead you on the maps that have 10000 levels upwards/downwards in a Jungle that is Also a labirint by itself.......also there isnt 90000 hostile mobs constantly in your face while trying to platform...

> >

> > There is platforming in PoF? I would not call using the springer to jump platforming.

>

> How is using a spring to jump not platforming. There are platforms. Some of the jumps take actual skill (as opposed to jumping mushrooms). Springers jumping are the very essence of platforming.

 

You missed the sarcasm. Platforming is jumping puzzles not pressing one button once or twice to go up a defined path.

 

[Vindicus.2130]

PoF gives you the tools early to deal with all of the terrain whereas HoT took a long time and much more effort to get the mastery points necessary to navigate its labyrinth of z-axis quagmires; and even then was still more frustrating than fun because no tool exists to make the maps less convoluted.

[Vayne.8563]

> @Vindicus.2130 said:

> PoF gives you the tools early to deal with all of the terrain whereas HoT took a long time and much more effort to get the mastery points necessary to navigate its labyrinth of z-axis quagmires; and even then was still more frustrating than fun because no tool exists to make the maps less convoluted.

 

Which is why PoF doesn't feel like it has a sense of progression, and so many people have finished leveling everything but the Griffon over the first week. There's good and bad in everything.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @calb.3128 said:

> > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

> >

> > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

> >

> > What's the point of replying if you're not going to read what I said. It wasn't a word, it was pages and pages of conversation. People weren't misspeaking, they were saying platforming has no place in an MMO. PoF shows otherwise.

> HoT used mechanics which felt clunky and wooden, requiring silly amounts of precision which didn't play well with even the slightest bit of lag. PoF uses mechanics which are designed to feel natural and fluid, with more accessible map design, i.e. you can see what you need to do, rather than kill yourself time and time again for trial and error on magical standing spots.

>

> The issue was that HoT's mechanics made it feel like platforming was being shoehorned into the game. PoF feels like an adventure game with solid use of all three dimensions, but not a 'platformer'.

>

> You can pat yourself on the back all you want over your interpretation of semantics, but jumping does not a platformer make, especially when jumping puzzles have been in the game since GW2 launched. The disjointed, jarring experience is what many of us objected to, so big thumbs up to the ANet team for listening to feedback.

 

This sums it up.

 

I feel all this is, is you trying to justify your great HoT support/hype fever. Which is unlike you.

 

HoT was a miserae failure on so many fronts, and were it's biggest spokesman.

 

People includig myself love PoF. Regardless of whether it includes platforming. EVERYTHING about PoF is a massive improvement. From design, to communication, release, content etc etc.

 

Am I misconstruing anything?

 

Say the are 50x more jumping happenings in PoF... well it's not so noticeable. It's not forced in unnatural ways. And it does not feel like mario. Even if IT IS. Keywords: doesn't FEEL.

 

They had to change the precursor collection.

They had to change map design.

They had to change map mechanics.

They had to change legendary armor

It all failed miserably to the general casual public. Which YOU and I are included in, even though we are technically launch veterans.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

[Vayne.8563]

> @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

> If you compare platforming in HoT and platforming in PoF it should be pretty obvious why PoF platforming is preferred.

 

POF has platforming, HoT had very little. That's pretty much what I'm saying.

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > @calb.3128 said:

> > > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

> > >

> > > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

> > >

> > > What's the point of replying if you're not going to read what I said. It wasn't a word, it was pages and pages of conversation. People weren't misspeaking, they were saying platforming has no place in an MMO. PoF shows otherwise.

> > HoT used mechanics which felt clunky and wooden, requiring silly amounts of precision which didn't play well with even the slightest bit of lag. PoF uses mechanics which are designed to feel natural and fluid, with more accessible map design, i.e. you can see what you need to do, rather than kill yourself time and time again for trial and error on magical standing spots.

> >

> > The issue was that HoT's mechanics made it feel like platforming was being shoehorned into the game. PoF feels like an adventure game with solid use of all three dimensions, but not a 'platformer'.

> >

> > You can pat yourself on the back all you want over your interpretation of semantics, but jumping does not a platformer make, especially when jumping puzzles have been in the game since GW2 launched. The disjointed, jarring experience is what many of us objected to, so big thumbs up to the ANet team for listening to feedback.

>

> This sums it up.

>

> I feel all this is, is you trying to justify your great HoT support/hype fever. Which is unlike you.

>

> HoT was a miserae failure on so many fronts, and were it's biggest spokesman.

>

> People includig myself love PoF. Regardless of whether it includes platforming. EVERYTHING about PoF is a massive improvement. From design, to communication, release, content etc etc.

>

> Am I misconstruing anything?

>

> Say the are 50x more jumping happenings in PoF... well it's not so noticeable. It's not forced in unnatural ways. And it does not feel like mario. Even if IT IS. Keywords: doesn't FEEL.

>

> They had to change the precursor collection.

> They had to change map design.

> They had to change map mechanics.

> They had to change legendary armor

> It all failed miserably to the general casual public. Which YOU and I are included in, even though we are technically launch veterans.

 

I'm sorry but I run a casual guild with about 400 people in it, and most of those people don't see HoT as a miserable failure. I think you should stick to speaking for yourself, because last I checked, there have been no elections for spokes person for casual players. And in fact, we've seen more than one casual player say that they enjoy HoT and have no problem with it. So yeah, I don't think you should be speaking for everyone.

 

Nor am I trying to justify HoT in this thread. I'm making a point which you're avoiding. This thread has one purpose. It's addressing the people who said that platforming has no place in this game. People who said that if I wanted to platform I'd buy a console. That's what this thread is addressing.

 

I could have made a much better thread in support of HoT if that's what I was trying to do. What's happening here is that you dislike HoT so much you're willing to read anything about HoT that's positive as an attempt to glorify the game. However, if you read the OP, it doesn't even say HoT is good. All the OP actually says is that the problem with HoT isn't platforming. You can agree with that or disagree with it, but everything you've actually said is completely off topic.

 

I'll be happy to debate you in another thread in the relative merits of HoT, but I think HoT did pretty much what it was trying to do. The real failure here is core which didn't teach people how to play the game .And every time Anet tried to add anything slightly harder to the game, people would complain, not necessarily because the content was too hard..but because the game does a poor job of teaching itself.

 

[Vayne.8563]

> @otto.5684 said:

> > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > > @otto.5684 said:

> > > > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > > > i HATE the platforming in HoT

> > > > I Love the Platforming in PoF

> > > >

> > > > HoT feelt like they Put platforming on platforms to platform you into platforming to be able to platfrom to get gated by events that lead to more platforming that ends up being a platform that you platformed to from the very begining.... the entire kitten expansion was about Platforming literaly....

> > > >

> > > > PoF feels like Platforming done right

> > > > PoF is not Overbloated by Platforming that leads to more platforming

> > > > PoF does not have 50% of platforming locked behind events or elite mobs

> > > > PoF Platforming is not a giant over complicated Labirint where you literaly need to paint a Map in your Brain about all the platforms and how where they lead you on the maps that have 10000 levels upwards/downwards in a Jungle that is Also a labirint by itself.......also there isnt 90000 hostile mobs constantly in your face while trying to platform...

> > >

> > > There is platforming in PoF? I would not call using the springer to jump platforming.

> >

> > How is using a spring to jump not platforming. There are platforms. Some of the jumps take actual skill (as opposed to jumping mushrooms). Springers jumping are the very essence of platforming.

>

> You missed the sarcasm. Platforming is jumping puzzles not pressing one button once or twice to go up a defined path.

>

 

Sorry mate. I'm in defense mode here . lol

[Ashen.2907]

I am not fond of the maze-like design of HoT maps. Being maze-like does not make them platforming maps. I am also not fond of platforming game aesthetic elements or mario-esque (ha, Ive used mario-esque sufficiently frequently for my phone to auto complete it) aesthetic elements.

 

If something looks like, and feels like, a platformer, even if it isnt one, then it will be reacted to as if it were (to some extent).

 

Riding a mount that can jump across a ravine or over a wall, etc, doesnt look like or feel like a classic mario-esque or otherwise platforming game (to me). Jumping on bouncy mushrooms in order to reach the next vertical platform or level of a map does. So too does jumping up into the air to reap the rewards of floating glowing orbs. Being fired from a cannoning tube to reach a new height is also very reminiscent of platforming games to me.

 

Perhaps HoT is not technically a platformer, but it is dressed up like one and makes my character look like he is participating in one.

[MMAI.5892]

Without knowing these specific conversations or the specific definition of platforming in use, my general thought would be that - assuming these people to be the same - they found platforming in HoT far more punishing than in PoF.

 

Until... advanced gliding I think, I found 'platforming' in HoT to be nearly assured insta-death if missed. Which meant waypointing and running usually a decent distance just to get back to where I was before - generally this included a few 'rinse and repeat' until I found the magical edge of the tiny platform that didn't send me plummeting to my doom. In PoF, failing a jump usually means I need to move the Bunroo over a couple of inches and then continue on. Much less frustrating.

[Djinn.9245]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> So I can agree with the statement that "platforming wasn't the issue" in HoT, despite the pages & pages of posts saying that it was platforming.

 

...for you. Hopefully you aren't trying to say (like Vayne) that every single person who said that platforming was a problem for them in HoT was lying.

 

[Djinn.9245]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> > @Djinn.9245 said:

> > > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > > There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

> > >

> > > In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

> > >

> > > I like both expansions, myself, for completely different reasons.

> >

> > I disagree that PoF has more platforming than HoT. I spend most of my time running along flat surfaces.

>

> PoF has a mount the entire purpose of which is to jump up to ledges you cant reach without it. On those ledges are mastery points, ways to continue the story, hero points, items for collections. The very fact tthat the mount exists makes the amounta of platforming you need to use to finish zones to be much higher than HOT.

 

I don't agree that this follows at all. The fact that the mount exists means that you might need it sometimes. You should watch some of the videos from people who get to places without the mounts that seem to be "required". I've done it myself despite my lack of skill in this game.

 

And try this to counter your argument: the fact that Wallows exist must mean that you have to use them all the time in HoT, right? No, Wallows are used only sparsely in very specific circumstances.

 

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> > @"Omar Aschi Popp.7496" said:

> > > @calb.3128 said:

> > > > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > > > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > > Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

> > > >

> > > > > @Jana.6831 said:

> > > > > Yeah, so you got hung up on a word people didn't properly use - so what's your point? To be mad without any reason? Just because you can?

> > > >

> > > > What's the point of replying if you're not going to read what I said. It wasn't a word, it was pages and pages of conversation. People weren't misspeaking, they were saying platforming has no place in an MMO. PoF shows otherwise.

> > > HoT used mechanics which felt clunky and wooden, requiring silly amounts of precision which didn't play well with even the slightest bit of lag. PoF uses mechanics which are designed to feel natural and fluid, with more accessible map design, i.e. you can see what you need to do, rather than kill yourself time and time again for trial and error on magical standing spots.

> > >

> > > The issue was that HoT's mechanics made it feel like platforming was being shoehorned into the game. PoF feels like an adventure game with solid use of all three dimensions, but not a 'platformer'.

> > >

> > > You can pat yourself on the back all you want over your interpretation of semantics, but jumping does not a platformer make, especially when jumping puzzles have been in the game since GW2 launched. The disjointed, jarring experience is what many of us objected to, so big thumbs up to the ANet team for listening to feedback.

> >

> > This sums it up.

> >

> > I feel all this is, is you trying to justify your great HoT support/hype fever. Which is unlike you.

> >

> > HoT was a miserae failure on so many fronts, and were it's biggest spokesman.

> >

> > People includig myself love PoF. Regardless of whether it includes platforming. EVERYTHING about PoF is a massive improvement. From design, to communication, release, content etc etc.

> >

> > Am I misconstruing anything?

> >

> > Say the are 50x more jumping happenings in PoF... well it's not so noticeable. It's not forced in unnatural ways. And it does not feel like mario. Even if IT IS. Keywords: doesn't FEEL.

> >

> > They had to change the precursor collection.

> > They had to change map design.

> > They had to change map mechanics.

> > They had to change legendary armor

> > It all failed miserably to the general casual public. Which YOU and I are included in, even though we are technically launch veterans.

>

> I'm sorry but I run a casual guild with about 400 people in it, and most of those people don't see HoT as a miserable failure. I think you should stick to speaking for yourself, because last I checked, there have been no elections for spokes person for casual players. And in fact, we've seen more than one casual player say that they enjoy HoT and have no problem with it. So yeah, I don't think you should be speaking for everyone.

>

> Nor am I trying to justify HoT in this thread. I'm making a point which you're avoiding. This thread has one purpose. It's addressing the people who said that platforming has no place in this game. People who said that if I wanted to platform I'd buy a console. That's what this thread is addressing.

>

> I could have made a much better thread in support of HoT if that's what I was trying to do. What's happening here is that you dislike HoT so much you're willing to read anything about HoT that's positive as an attempt to glorify the game. However, if you read the OP, it doesn't even say HoT is good. All the OP actually says is that the problem with HoT isn't platforming. You can agree with that or disagree with it, but everything you've actually said is completely off topic.

>

> I'll be happy to debate you in another thread in the relative merits of HoT, but I think HoT did pretty much what it was trying to do. The real failure here is core which didn't teach people how to play the game .And every time Anet tried to add anything slightly harder to the game, people would complain, not necessarily because the content was too hard..but because the game does a poor job of teaching itself.

>

 

I'll read later. I don't want to skim and knee-jerk.

But I never said I was speaking for anyone. I never specified at all. But there for fact a large demographic of players who vehemently hate mario wars 2 who also are ok with PoF (which you are right, is even more platformy)... because if design.

 

To be continued...

[Terra.9506]

my first impression to HoT is alot better than PoF there're several thing that excite me like Map Meta which make each map very unique, even NPC quest also feel alive and more interesting compare to PoF, While traveling in HoT is really hard but it also give me sense of adventure feel for dangerous it also force player group together to help each other.

 

But even I like HoT than PoF but HoT still far from perfect like super confuse and frustrate in tangled dept...(I'm glade PoF don't have map like this) force death situation in several area until player have enough mastery to overcome... OP mushrooms enemy and nearly impossible to solo hero point in most part.

 

PoF was fun and alot easier but lack of Map meta and come back of Heart quest make me not enjoy as HoT. Even story I also feel Mordremoth post more threat than Balthaza.

[Charrbeque.8729]

Because HoT had a lot of mastery tracks and required a ton of mastery points to unlock various travel things like gliding updrafts, bouncing mushrooms, etc. It was time consuming, and sometimes really difficult, to get enough mastery points to make traveling around the maps easier. (some mastery insights in the HoT maps actually required certain events or meta events to be successfully completed before you can even get to them; at least 1 point in tangled depths that requires success of the chak garant event)

 

With PoF there are plenty of easy mastery points to obtain to at least unlock T3 for each of the 4 main mounts. Even without T3, it's still way easy to explore because the mounts start with their special mechanic (unlike gliding where you can't use updrafts or lean techniques at all until you unlock them). And at most you only need 14 mastery points to fully max out a single mount. Compare that to a total of 31 for max gliding mastery for riding ley lines, and even more points needed for other mastery tracks to get bouncing mushrooms, speed mushrooms, nuhoch wallows, etc.

 

The bottom line is, players liking the "platforming" in PoF more than HoT doesn't make us hypocrites (as the OP seems to be trying to imply). ArenaNet learned from the problems with HoT and made things much easier this time around, on top of mounts being just plain fun to use.