So It Doesn't Look Like Platforming was the Issue with HoT

[Vayne.8563]

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @maddoctor.2738 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > I like platforming, I was not one of those complaining about HoT. But I totally get the complaints. The difference here is that getting _across_ PoF maps require relatively little platforming, and where it does exist, it's fairly straightforward, like make ONE raptor jump or ONE Springer jump onto a ledge and then keep moving. HoT maps, by comparison, had a ton of platforming just to get across the map, so if that wasn't your thing, you didn't really have any other options.

> >

> > Only that's not true, simply getting across Heart of Thorns maps requires zero platforming.

>

> In the platforming games I've seen, there are mushrooms that bounce you upward, there are tubes that take you from one part of the map to another, there are air jets that shoot you up in the air, etc. These are all part of "platforming" and all necessary to navigate HoT maps. Not sure what kind of platforming games you are talking about.

 

Except in those platforming games, you have to control where you go, which isn't true with bouncing mushrooms or lava tubes. If you jump on a mushroom in mario brothers, it only takes you one way...straight up, If you want to go somewhere you have to control the jump. That's platforming. A mushroom that takes you from one place and deposits you in another is nothing more than a visual portal.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> Except in those platforming games, you have to control where you go, which isn't true with bouncing mushrooms or lava tubes. If you jump on a mushroom in mario brothers, it only takes you one way...straight up, If you want to go somewhere you have to control the jump. That's platforming. A mushroom that takes you from one place and deposits you in another is nothing more than a visual portal.

 

You're splitting hairs about a word that doesn't have an established definition. For me, console-style gaming means: having to memorize a set route with set hazards in order to complete a given level. There's no meaningful difference — for me — between a Mario-like game and navigating via HoT mushrooms: in both cases, I need to jump in a certain way to land on a certain spot to reach a certain place, which is where I want to be.

 

I appreciate that there are degrees of difficulty and complexity that might differ from HoT to this traditional console game or that traditional platform game. What I'm asking you to appreciate is that those distinctions are moot when it comes to whether I enjoy the game.

 

So I can agree with the statement that "platforming wasn't the issue" in HoT, despite the pages & pages of posts saying that it was platforming. But that only means that people weren't able to describe clearly what they didn't like. The aspect of HoT described in those pages was "platforming", but it turns out that there are other sorts of platforming that doesn't bother the same people.

 

tl;dr while it's true that "platforming" wasn't the issue, it's moot. Critics simply lacked a better word than "platforming" to describe what they didn't like about navigation in HoT.

[Yamazuki.6073]

The complaints about HoT weren't over "platforming", it was about the layering. The maps that had multiple layers on top of each other made it difficult for some to get around. They would get lost and the map was essentially useless, because knowing where you had to be on the map wasn't helpful if it wasn't telling you whether you had to be on the lowest layer, the highest, layer, or what ever in between. The PoF maps are all essentially a single layer with a couple easy to find caves/paths, the maps are all for the most part wide open too making it even easier to know where you're going.

[Phy.2913]

Moving _up_ in HOT was tedious. In POF once you get the springer you're set, and most of the time you're moving _across_ the map, not vertically.

[Healix.5819]

Platforming was one of the complaints that had multiple different views. Some were simply referring to the mastery gimmicks for example, while others were referring to how the maps were essentially a giant jumping puzzle. Complaints about the complex maps was a far more common topic and PoF is nowhere near the complexity of HoT.

 

Following a guide is not what most people want. They want a reasonable experience that doesn't waste their time. A lot less people would probably resort to using guides for example if the achievements circled a general area rather than telling you to search everywhere. That was one of the most popular addons in WoW, which was eventually rolled into it.

[Vayne.8563]

> @Djinn.9245 said:

> > @Vayne.8563 said:

> > There are a lot of people who have bitterly complained about how HOT had become a platformer and that the game was badly received because of it. I think it's easy to see that PoF was far better received than HoT was..but it also has far more platforming...actual platforming in fact.

> >

> > In fact, almost all of the stuff people complained about in HOT exists in POF except for the timer meta events, which apparently some people like. I find it interesting that some people who complained about platforming seem to enjoy PoF even though it has far more platforming that HoT ever had.

> >

> > I like both expansions, myself, for completely different reasons.

>

> I disagree that PoF has more platforming than HoT. I spend most of my time running along flat surfaces.

 

PoF has a mount the entire purpose of which is to jump up to ledges you cant reach without it. On those ledges are mastery points, ways to continue the story, hero points, items for collections. The very fact tthat the mount exists makes the amounta of platforming you need to use to finish zones to be much higher than HOT. Remember standing on a mushroom and being put somewhere is not platforming. It's standing on a mushroom. Jumping with the mount actually requires you to control your jumps, and aim your jumps which is what platforming actually is.

 

As a person who grew up on platforming games, I can tell you with absolutely certainty, there is not only more platforming in PoF, but there is more in an order of magnitude. However, if you want to continue to maintain that a jumping mushroom or a lava tube is platforming I'll just leave it to others to make their own determination about your specific definition.

[AegisRunestone.8672]

> @Batelle.1680 said:

> Also, the mastery system in HoT was much, much more of an effort sink than it is in PoF, so it took a longer time to unlock all the tools you needed to make traversing the jungle not a guaranteed death sentence.

 

Yeah. I like all the HoT masteries, I just wish each step didn't raise the cost by some weird exponential equation. I can see 1 -> 3 -> 5 -> 7 -> 9 or something, but lines like gliding were crazy hard to max.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Vayne.8563 said:

> Well I did it without guides and without much problem and I'm no min/maxer and I'm not the best player.

 

I also did it without guides and without too much problem, but I can understand why that isn't true for everyone. Each person has their own strengths and weaknesses in gaming, I feel that I'm reasonably good at navigation, getting a feel for an environment, understanding how to flow through it, that sort of thing. I'm the sort where in a competitive game I can pick up a map faster than most and figure out how to move through it to get the best pick-ups in an orderly fashion, that sort of thing. But I definitely also have my own weaknesses, like my reaction time is not ideal, and once everyone gets comfortable with a given map, my advantage decreases significantly. Everyone is different. It seems like you don't have a problem with navigation or platforming, so the issues HoT presented did not bother you, but plenty of people do have some difficulty with one or more of the elements that would be needed to fully embrace the HoT maps, and it took them more time and practice than it may have taken you, and that's ok. They were expressing their honest opinions about how they felt about those maps.

 

>The problem a lot of people don't like to think when they play games. I attribute this to years of WOWness in MMOs. People haven't played RPGs and just into MMOs and they want to follow an arrow to a start to get a reward. And I 'm not in favor of that kind of play nor in favor of encouraging it.

 

Ok, but they don't care what you think. They aren't playing the game to make you happy, they are playing the game to make themselves happy, and if they don't like the sort of game that you like, they have every right to express that.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Ok, but they don't care what you think. They aren't playing the game to make you happy, they are playing the game to make themselves happy, and if they don't like the sort of game that you like, they have every right to express that.

 

Read what Vayne is saying again. He didn't suggest that people should like HoT; he's saying that the issue isn't what some of those who disliked HoT called "platforming."

(Which might be true, although as you can see from above, I don't think relevant.)

 

In effect, Vayne is trying to help clarify the criticism.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > Ok, but they don't care what you think. They aren't playing the game to make you happy, they are playing the game to make themselves happy, and if they don't like the sort of game that you like, they have every right to express that.

>

> Read what Vayne is saying again. He didn't suggest that people should like HoT; he's saying that the issue isn't what some of those who disliked HoT called "platforming."

> (Which might be true, although as you can see from above, I don't think relevant.)

>

> In effect, Vayne is trying to help clarify the criticism.

 

And it's possible that the word people were using as not the best word to describe their meaning, but I think people said more than "too much platforming," that was just their initial statement, and then most went on to get into specifics, so I doubt ANet was in confusion as to what they did and did not enjoy about the HoT content. We had these exact same discussions two years ago.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > Ok, but they don't care what you think. They aren't playing the game to make you happy, they are playing the game to make themselves happy, and if they don't like the sort of game that you like, they have every right to express that.

> >

> > Read what Vayne is saying again. He didn't suggest that people should like HoT; he's saying that the issue isn't what some of those who disliked HoT called "platforming."

> > (Which might be true, although as you can see from above, I don't think relevant.)

> >

> > In effect, Vayne is trying to help clarify the criticism.

>

> And it's possible that the word people were using as not the best word to describe their meaning, but I think people said more than "too much platforming," that was just their initial statement, and then most went on to get into specifics, so I doubt ANet was in confusion as to what they did and did not enjoy about the HoT content. We had these exact same discussions two years ago.

 

Yes, of course there were all sorts of reasons that people wrote about.

Vayne's not bringing any of those up or discounting them or dismissing them. He's simply saying that there was a ton of specific criticism about something that people called "platforming" **and** that apparently, since people like the sort of platforming that is in PoF, that "platforming" wasn't the right word to describe it.

 

I also doubt that ANet was in confusion, but Vayne isn't posting for ANet's sake; he's posting because a lot of people are confused about what the specific issue *when* people used the word "platforming" to describe what they didn't like. (Including, as it turns out, some of the people who wrote the criticism.)

 

In short, "platforming" turns out not to be the issue, which is all that Vayne is saying.

(Probably not a surprise to you either, but again, you & I and ANet aren't members of the primary audience who Vayne thinks might be interested in the topic.)

[otto.5684]

For me the saving grace for HoT at release was reverant. The story was not good on either. The biggest issue in HoT is that mastries were prerequisite to doing anything and were not accessible.

 

HoT maps had issues, but once you accessed some mastries, outside of TD, they are good. I think VB is the best designed map in the game so far. PoF maps are nothing more than empty space. Very few uninteresting hearts. Very few events or metas. Rarely anything interesting. It has been less than 10 days and I find no reason to go there.

 

Although they do shower you in loot. It probably cannot come to AB meta level, but can be done solo. I guess it offers players with limited knowledge and/or skill somewhere to farm. That is such a low bar to create interesting repeatable content..

[otto.5684]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> i HATE the platforming in HoT

> I Love the Platforming in PoF

>

> HoT feelt like they Put platforming on platforms to platform you into platforming to be able to platfrom to get gated by events that lead to more platforming that ends up being a platform that you platformed to from the very begining.... the entire kitten expansion was about Platforming literaly....

>

> PoF feels like Platforming done right

> PoF is not Overbloated by Platforming that leads to more platforming

> PoF does not have 50% of platforming locked behind events or elite mobs

> PoF Platforming is not a giant over complicated Labirint where you literaly need to paint a Map in your Brain about all the platforms and how where they lead you on the maps that have 10000 levels upwards/downwards in a Jungle that is Also a labirint by itself.......also there isnt 90000 hostile mobs constantly in your face while trying to platform...

 

There is platforming in PoF? I would not call using the springer to jump platforming.

[Vayne.8563]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > Ok, but they don't care what you think. They aren't playing the game to make you happy, they are playing the game to make themselves happy, and if they don't like the sort of game that you like, they have every right to express that.

> >

> > Read what Vayne is saying again. He didn't suggest that people should like HoT; he's saying that the issue isn't what some of those who disliked HoT called "platforming."

> > (Which might be true, although as you can see from above, I don't think relevant.)

> >

> > In effect, Vayne is trying to help clarify the criticism.

>

> And it's possible that the word people were using as not the best word to describe their meaning, but I think people said more than "too much platforming," that was just their initial statement, and then most went on to get into specifics, so I doubt ANet was in confusion as to what they did and did not enjoy about the HoT content. We had these exact same discussions two years ago.

 

Okay I'm explaining this now for the third time in this thread. The conversations I've had were deeply clarifiied,. There was nothing at all left to my imagination. People saying if I wanted to play Mario Brothers I'd have bought a console is just one example from much longer conversations. There are undoubtedly people who have used the wrong words. There are also people who insist using a jumping mushroom is a form of platforming, which is like saying a waypoint is platforming, or a portal to the upper city in Divinity's Reach.

 

HoT did have problems for some people by there's a definite sense of much of the things we've seen complained about in HoT also exist in the new zones, and in some cases in higher quantity.

 

But no, I wasn't confused about the conversations I'm talking about. And the people who I was speaking to were crystal clear about what they meant. And I strongly suspect some of those same people who decried platforming before are now happily platforming away in PoF.

 

[Vayne.8563]

> @otto.5684 said:

> > @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> > i HATE the platforming in HoT

> > I Love the Platforming in PoF

> >

> > HoT feelt like they Put platforming on platforms to platform you into platforming to be able to platfrom to get gated by events that lead to more platforming that ends up being a platform that you platformed to from the very begining.... the entire kitten expansion was about Platforming literaly....

> >

> > PoF feels like Platforming done right

> > PoF is not Overbloated by Platforming that leads to more platforming

> > PoF does not have 50% of platforming locked behind events or elite mobs

> > PoF Platforming is not a giant over complicated Labirint where you literaly need to paint a Map in your Brain about all the platforms and how where they lead you on the maps that have 10000 levels upwards/downwards in a Jungle that is Also a labirint by itself.......also there isnt 90000 hostile mobs constantly in your face while trying to platform...

>

> There is platforming in PoF? I would not call using the springer to jump platforming.

 

How is using a spring to jump not platforming. There are platforms. Some of the jumps take actual skill (as opposed to jumping mushrooms). Springers jumping are the very essence of platforming.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

>Vayne's not bringing any of those up or discounting them or dismissing them. He's simply saying that there was a ton of specific criticism about something that people called "platforming" and that apparently, since people like the sort of platforming that is in PoF, that "platforming" wasn't the right word to describe it.

 

What would the value be in having a semantic argument like that?

[Rhanoa.3960]

> @Zoltreez.6435 said:

> i HATE the platforming in HoT

> I Love the Platforming in PoF

>

> HoT feelt like they Put platforming on platforms to platform you into platforming to be able to platfrom to get gated by events that lead to more platforming that ends up being a platform that you platformed to from the very begining.... the entire kitten expansion was about Platforming literaly....

>

> PoF feels like Platforming done right

> PoF is not Overbloated by Platforming that leads to more platforming

> PoF does not have 50% of platforming locked behind events or elite mobs

> PoF Platforming is not a giant over complicated Labirint where you literaly need to paint a Map in your Brain about all the platforms and how where they lead you on the maps that have 10000 levels upwards/downwards in a Jungle that is Also a labirint by itself.......also there isnt 90000 hostile mobs constantly in your face while trying to platform...

 

 

Another terrible argument!

 

POF is virtually HOT just with out the Jungle theme. You still have vertical and horizontal content. You are still progressing (You may call it a GRIND) through the game unlocking abilities to get to areas throughout the map the same way you had to HOT.

 

The INTUITIVE folks who know how to pick up the game and improvise don't always require the necessary mounts to get to one location of the map and to their masteries. We are also the same folks who continue to enjoy the game.

 

**Long live Non Meta Builds**

[Vayne.8563]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >Vayne's not bringing any of those up or discounting them or dismissing them. He's simply saying that there was a ton of specific criticism about something that people called "platforming" and that apparently, since people like the sort of platforming that is in PoF, that "platforming" wasn't the right word to describe it.

>

> What would the value be in having a semantic argument like that?

 

If you don't clarify terms no conversation is possible. For years, there have been a rather small vocal contingent of anti-platformers, who said one of the main reason that HoT didn't do well is because of the amount of platforming required. I've always disagreed. I agree that HoT didn't meet expectations, but I have always maintained it wasn't just one reason.

 

Anyway along comes an expansion that has plenty of platforming and it's being much better received. It means we can at least take the platforming off the list of things that this playerbase has a major problem with, at least in any numbers.

 

Other things are still on the table. But moving forward, it's good to know that platforming is well accepted and liked by a decent percentage of the playerbase, at least when presented in a form where mastery acquisition isn't as time-consuming as it was in HoT

[Shirlias.8104]

HoT Exploration was way more hardcore than PoF ( you had to explore and try many times in order to get a specific HP, MP or Poi ), while PoF is way more for casual ( i completed everything on map without helps, in a week or less ).

I agree as stated before, that HoT masteries experience needed was a huge timesink... a total pain.

 

HoT maps were frustrating at first ( i did really hate VB ) but at the end i happened to enjoyed em, and somehow they became "easy" to deal with.

VB is probably my favourite map.

 

They are 2 different expansions, but i like both of em ( i prefered PoF story cause i couldn't stand Threahrne or what's his name, and the End of HoT was priceless to me ) for, as many wrote, different reasons.

 

No issues in both expansions ( i have always played a full zerk thief 11khealth ), except maybe some mobs in some tight places ;)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >Vayne's not bringing any of those up or discounting them or dismissing them. He's simply saying that there was a ton of specific criticism about something that people called "platforming" and that apparently, since people like the sort of platforming that is in PoF, that "platforming" wasn't the right word to describe it.

>

> What would the value be in having a semantic argument like that?

 

Sigh, it's not a "semantic" argument about "what does platforming mean". It's a discussion about what people actually meant with their criticism when they chose the word. Vayne's point (and perhaps it wasn't made clearly) is that

* There were tons of complaints regarding HoT that used the word platforming

* PoF also includes platform-like mechanics, arguably even more so than PoF,

* Why aren't people complaining about it here?

 

Vayne contends that the issue wasn't "platforming" that people were frustrated with, but something else. And he'd like to discuss that, if other folks (ahem) would stop digressing about other things that people didn't like about HoT (there are indeed many others) or about whether there are platform elements in PoF (that latter is a semantic discussion which you are participating in).

[Zaltys.7649]

I don't remember anyone complaining about HoT 'platforming'. Maybe someone actually did, but most of the complaints were about the map.

 

...personally, I'm still as lost in Tangled Depths as ever. Never could figure that place out.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @Zaltys.7649 said:

> I don't remember anyone complaining about HoT 'platforming'. Maybe someone actually did, but most of the complaints were about the map.

>

> ...personally, I'm still as lost in Tangled Depths as ever. Never could figure that place out.

 

"I prepurchased PoF but i am still trapped in Tangled Depths... days pass and i think i have lost track of time... i am hungry and thirsty, and chaks are everywhere... i don't know how long it will be untill they'll get me..."

[Evil.1580]

There is no such thing as platforming with the griffon :)

[Vayne.8563]

> @Zaltys.7649 said:

> I don't remember anyone complaining about HoT 'platforming'. Maybe someone actually did, but most of the complaints were about the map.

>

> ...personally, I'm still as lost in Tangled Depths as ever. Never could figure that place out.

 

If you're on a US server, I'd be happy to take you around and show you how to easily navigate TD, there are a couple of tricks to it, but it's not as bad as most people think.

 

On the topic of people calling out platforming, I promise you it was out there. Not in a specific thread, but in almost every HoT complaint thread a group of people would call out HoT for being a platformer, with so much emphasis, I felt it took away from the real conversation. I never really believed platforming was the issue, but I don't deny there were issues.

 

Eliminating one of those issues can allow more focus on the stuff that needs to be focused on.

[Henry.5713]

There was something about the HoT maps that I didn't like at first. Might be the fact that we started on the map that required the gliding most but didn't have any masteries while we still had to get used to the entire thing. They kind of grew on me, however. The overload of mobs seemed to have bothered some, never been a problem to me nor the fact that it took a little bit of effort to solo the champions.

The new maps are going back to the basics, I guess. Bigger area to explore, easier to avoid being molested by monsters while you do so, more solo friendly as a whole. All though, I don't see myself going there any more often than the HoT maps once I have unlocked the stuff I want. Probably less so even due to the lack of META Events. But I do not do not enjoy the casual Open World content much and that might be just me.