Confusion and Torment are 'Control' conditions and needs a re-look

[saerni.2584]

Cleanse and resistance as a 100% mechanic are the biggest issues with condition viability.

 

As @"babazhook.6805" said: there has to be some window for condition builds to do damage. Cleanse and resistance can reduce that down to effectively or actually 0. Perma immunity to conditions builds exist. Asking for even less condi damage or duration is not reasonable when so few condi builds are viable.

 

The best solution is to remove all cleanses and nerf resistance to 33% THEN talk about needing specific professions ability to apply conditions.

 

However, that is unlikely to happen because cleanse is a core mechanic. If duration of a condition is an issue then you need to equip cleanses. There are more than enough in the current meta.

 

Condi Mirage isn’t an issue for people because of condi. It is an issue because it is tanky while doing lots of damage.

[Lucentfir.7430]

Imo, if we were going to touch on Torment and Confusion my ideas would be the following since most changes will most likely leak over into PVE, and I also think they fit better thematically.

 

Torment - Torment no longer deals additional damage while moving, instead does increased damage for every debilitating condition the target suffers from(33% per).

 

Confusion -When a confused foe's attack/skill is negated or reduced(Blocked/Evaded/invuln/misses/glancing blow) deal damage(20% more damage than current confusion). Skill activation damage does 50% less damage if skills are not negated or reduced. (Skills that hit multiple targets will count for full confusion damage if any of the targets negate or reduce the attack)

[santenal.1054]

There needs to be added an internal cooldown (1s) to the "damage on skill activation" before anything else. (Damage done once every second like all other damage conditions)(this had to be done years ago), After that is done the devs can start properly balancing condition mesmer (nerfing/buffing/changing things).

[Hot Boy.7138]

I made this post about just this a while back. I said that confusion should behave more like retaliation, in that it should only stack in duration, not in intensity.

[Apolo.5942]

Conditions need a COMPLETE REWORK

 

Conditions need to be normalized:

1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.

2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.

3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

[SteepledHat.1345]

First we need to nerf confusion because it ticked too much damage passively. So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon. I mean, can we just say what it really is? You want to remove mesmer.

[Aza.2105]

> @"santenal.1054" said:

> There needs to be added an internal cooldown (1s) to the "damage on skill activation" before anything else. (Damage done once every second like all other damage conditions)(this had to be done years ago), After that is done the devs can start properly balancing condition mesmer (nerfing/buffing/changing things).

 

This is a great idea.

[Simonoly.4352]

Torment and Confusion are not control conditions. They are damaging conditions that have certain requirements to achieve their full damage - torment from moving, Confusion from skill activation. This means that, unlike Bleeding, burning and poison where you either take the full damage or cleanse, with confusion and torment you can actually adjust your behaviour in addition to cleansing. If you have 5 stacks of bleeding put on you and you do nothing, you take full damage from those bleed stacks. However, if it's five stacks of confusion, you could weapon stow and take an insignificant amount of damage.

 

Whilst torment and confusion are potent conditions, the logic that they're OP because there's more ways to reduce the damage taken is a bit odd. Confusion and torment exist to lend flavour to the conditions in the game that's all.

[apharma.3741]

> @"santenal.1054" said:

> There needs to be added an internal cooldown (1s) to the "damage on skill activation" before anything else. (Damage done once every second like all other damage conditions)(this had to be done years ago), After that is done the devs can start properly balancing condition mesmer (nerfing/buffing/changing things).

 

Fantastic idea, while they're at it can we get an AI to play the game for us while watching GoT? I don't want to have to do any of this "thinking" business.

[Aza.2105]

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

 

This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

 

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

> * Torment should do only damage while moving.

> * Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

>

 

^ That's the golden ticket right there. Good suggestion, it would solve almost all of the balance issues tied to confuse & torment. Additionally, confuse should not deal damage when it is being cleansed by an actively used condi clear. <- This is largely why Mirages are broken, because that condition WILL deal damage to you, regardless of how many clears you have and how fast you are at using them.

 

 

To the people who keep insisting: "Just stand still, stop using skills."

 

^ That is a cop-out response and people need to stop using it. The reality is there are more often than not, situations where you cannot stop moving or stop using skills unless you want to die. More often than not, you aren't getting some favorable 1v1 against a Mirage where the stars align and everything works out in your favor. More often than not things happen like this: "You are 1v1ing a Scourge and about to kill it on a node, but a Mirage randomly appears out of no where with his stealth into burst combo after using blink/jaunt. Now you have 15 stacks of confusion and 15 stacks of torment and god knows what other condis." Is it a good idea to stop moving, stand still for awhile, and not use skills? Rofl yeah alright.

 

Anyway, it can be argued that confuse/torment are not equal to hard CCs, but they are definitely soft CCs and apply extra pressure in different ways than normal conditions. Sure, sometimes in 1v1 situations it can be useful to stand still and stop using skills if there is an advantageous moment to do so, but we're talking a second at most, or sometimes a fraction of second realistically, and sometimes you don't even have that kind of time. So stop bluffing this discussion off with such an unrealistic response as "Just stand still, stop using skills", because 9/10x it just doesn't work out that way.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

>

> This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

>

>

>

 

Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

 

Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

[Aza.2105]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

> >

> > This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

>

> Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

 

I was talking about confusion AND torment. Hence the STOW your weapon AND stand still.

[rng.1024]

It's actually an interesting idea to make both torment and confusion become duration only boons.

 

Torment would still deal damage over time, but build a stack (of same remaining duration) every 1/2 second if you are moving that reduces movement speed with 4%.

 

Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

 

This would allow both cleanses and Expertise a place, and the conditions would still rely on smart play from the inflicted one. It also would reward application timing and aggressive play forcing the accumulation of stacks.

 

Another aspect are how power based builds with access to might stacking could benefit from runes/sigils applying and lengthening the condition in order to pressure hard right after.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I said almost since the game release that condis should have a hard cap, akin to GW1. Let's say for the sake of example 5k, you put up enough condis stacks to deal 7k, your total damage would still be 5k, your target puts regen on himself, regen gets negated by the extra 2k.

Of course ANet needed to delete resistance and lower the condi removal.

 

[EremiteAngel.9765]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

>

> This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

>

>

>

 

There is also the problem of Hybrid Mirages.

They don't just do condi damage, but power damage as well.

Stow weapon and stand still against a hybrid mirage? :/

[apharma.3741]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

> > >

> > > This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

> >

> > Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

>

> I was talking about confusion AND torment. Hence the STOW your weapon AND stand still.

 

Well then maybe you should have put the word torment in your post instead of only confusion.

[Aza.2105]

> @"rng.1024" said:

> Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

 

Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

 

The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

 

[Aza.2105]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > > @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> > > > > So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon.

> > > >

> > > > This is part of the problem. That you pretty much have to stow your weapon and stand still while they pound on you. Lets not get it twisted, its not like Mesmer confusion re-application is low like Rev. Mirage reapplies confusion at a alarming rate.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Actually you don't need to stand still on confusion, it doesn't proc off movement so confusion isn't making you stand there. I can put 100 confusion (not possible btw) on you and you can run to LoS me not use a skill and be fine after 3s with it completely gone and you took 100x10x3 = 3000 as the dot.

> > >

> > > Your issue is not a confusion issue, it's a torment issue as you're standing there.

> >

> > I was talking about confusion AND torment. Hence the STOW your weapon AND stand still.

>

> Well then maybe you should have put the word torment in your post instead of only confusion.

 

Fair enough.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > I think those two control conditions are fine, although in PvP should be pure in their design:

> > * Torment should do only damage while moving.

> > * Confusion should do damage only when casting an ability which is not the auto-attack.

> >

>

> ^ That's the golden ticket right there. Good suggestion, it would solve almost all of the balance issues tied to confuse & torment. Additionally, confuse should not deal damage when it is being cleansed by an actively used condi clear. <- This is largely why Mirages are broken, because that condition WILL deal damage to you, regardless of how many clears you have and how fast you are at using them.

>

>

> To the people who keep insisting: "Just stand still, stop using skills."

>

> ^ That is a cop-out response and people need to stop using it. The reality is there are more often than not, situations where you cannot stop moving or stop using skills unless you want to die. More often than not, you aren't getting some favorable 1v1 against a Mirage where the stars align and everything works out in your favor. More often than not things happen like this: "You are 1v1ing a Scourge and about to kill it on a node, but a Mirage randomly appears out of no where with his stealth into burst combo after using blink/jaunt. Now you have 15 stacks of confusion and 15 stacks of torment and god knows what other condis." Is it a good idea to stop moving, stand still for awhile, and not use skills? Rofl yeah alright.

>

> Anyway, it can be argued that confuse/torment are not equal to hard CCs, but they are definitely soft CCs and apply extra pressure in different ways than normal conditions. Sure, sometimes in 1v1 situations it can be useful to stand still and stop using skills if there is an advantageous moment to do so, but we're talking a second at most, or sometimes a fraction of second realistically, and sometimes you don't even have that kind of time. So stop bluffing this discussion off with such an unrealistic response as "Just stand still, stop using skills", because 9/10x it just doesn't work out that way.

>

>

 

Confusion would literally never kill anyone ever again if it didn't proc on autoattacks. Think about how many builds just auto and auto and auto. Thieves when they jump you, rangers both Boonbeast and Sic Em variants, weavers, spellbreakers as you kite them around the node, holosmiths in both rifle and while in photon forge.

 

You take a condition which has build in counter play and make it **impossible** for most people to **NOT** counter play it without even trying and without having to think about it. In fact the less a player thinks the weaker it would be under this suggestion.

 

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> Conditions need a COMPLETE REWORK

>

> Conditions need to be normalized:

> 1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.

> 2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.

> 3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

 

Posting this over and over again doesn't make it any less of a bad suggestion each time. Especially since condition damage is already dead on all classes outside of scourge and condition mirage.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"SteepledHat.1345" said:

> First we need to nerf confusion because it ticked too much damage passively. So we make it active only. Now we need to nerf that because you can't stow your weapon. I mean, can we just say what it really is? You want to remove mesmer.

 

Actually... the passive damage was added for pve reasons and they reverted it back for pvp/wvw reasons.

 

Not that it matters but I dont think any class should have heavy access to both those conditions but in the bigger picture of the pvp health this topic is trivial.

 

Im mistaken a lot or people are looking to argue but I want to clarify im not disagreeing with you or agreeing with you.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"rng.1024" said:

> > Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

>

> Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

>

> The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

>

 

Actually it's not the same.

 

Retal does damage per hit.

Confusion does damage per skill use.

 

Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.

Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.

Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

 

If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

 

Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

 

>! Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

 

Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"rng.1024" said:

> > > Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

> >

> > Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

> >

> > The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

> >

>

> Actually it's not the same.

>

> Retal does damage per hit.

> Confusion does damage per skill use.

>

> Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.

> Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.

> Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

>

> If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

>

> Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

>

> >! Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

>

> Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

 

For example:

 

 

@ 3minutes, 16 seconds.

[Aza.2105]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > @"rng.1024" said:

> > > Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

> >

> > Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

> >

> > The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

> >

>

> Actually it's not the same.

>

> Retal does damage per hit.

> Confusion does damage per skill use.

>

> Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.

> Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.

> Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

>

> If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

>

> Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

>

> >! Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

>

> Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

 

No I disagree, its quite similar. And I already stated that retaliation damage can multiply the more targets it has. But that situation is conditional. Are you suggesting by chance that....its hard for Mirage to achieve 6 stacks of confusion?

[apharma.3741]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > > > @"rng.1024" said:

> > > > Confusion would should give you retal damage as base (fixed damage if you hit the source) and build a stack (maybe 2 if traited) every time you use a skill or hit the source.

> > >

> > > Retaliation was nerfed in pvp because players complained about the damage. They would kill themselves when they attacked the target. Sounds familiar? Confusion and retaliation are similar in function. One punishes you for attacking the player, the other punishes you by using skills. Both require you to stop attacking in order to make the damage stop.

> > >

> > > The difference is retaliation stacks in duration and it only does around 244 dmg per hit and can multiply the more targets you hit with retaliation. While confusion stacks in intensity and can two shot a player with enough stacks, which btw Mirage has no problems pumping out. Mirage players will come to defend this and say its not the same. But it IS THE EXACT same. No one would want to be two shotted by retaliation and be told to stop attack or bring boon strip if they have a problem with it.

> > >

> >

> > Actually it's not the same.

> >

> > Retal does damage per hit.

> > Confusion does damage per skill use.

> >

> > Most skills in the game will hit multiple targets 3-5.

> > Some skills will hit multiple times on a single enemy like , rapid fire, arc lightning etc.

> > Some skills hit multiple times on multiple targets like hundred blades, pistol whip, blurred frenzy and these are death sentences against retal.

> >

> > If you hit 5 targets with retal who give back 244 damage with 1 skill and you take 1220 damage, that is not insignificant.

> >

> > Now bonus question, how many stacks of confusion does it take to do that much damage at 1505 condition damage?

> >

> > >! Answer is (0.0975*1505)+49.5 = 196. 1220/196 = 6.2 so we will round it down to 6 to make everyone feel happy.

> >

> > Edit: Put example skills in the wrong place.

>

> No I disagree, its quite similar. And I already stated that retaliation damage can multiply the more targets it has. But that situation is conditional. Are you suggesting by chance that....its hard for Mirage to achieve 6 stacks of confusion?

 

Strawman more please. I am not suggesting it's hard to get 6 stacks of confusion.

 

What I'm saying is that the 2 are very different and scale very different while depending on a multitude of different factors and being applied differently too. They are not comparable at all.

 

The only thing they have in common is they punish you for attacking.