Discussion on Policy: Third-Party Programs

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> ANet can't be 100% specific about any of this because there are a gazillion players out there who are waiting to "internet lawyer" interpret any possible loopholes.

 

I agree.

 

But here is my question: why can't ANET just implement some of these addons themselves?

 

Am I to believe that so-called "amateur" programmers can code an addon like arcDPS and ANET's own developer's cannot? Do they disagree with the idea of allowing players to view at least their own damage while in game? They gave us the training area / golem, so clearly they acknowledge the value of this information, so why not make it available to all players through in game UI?

 

Would anyone really object to a player getting information on their own DPS? Doubtful. Yet currently we are required to use 3rd party addons for this information, which also provides information on other player's DPS, something the player base has raised concerns about.

 

I understand fully that ANET might not be thrilled with addons like TACO that literally give you in game prompts to completing JPs, but there is some middle ground here.

 

I'm actually pretty happy that unlike WoW where you arguably HAD to use addons, that GW2 doesn't require the same - but things like a personal DPS meter would be very helpful to all players, and something ANET should reasonably be able to implement.

 

 

[WyvrnRipsnarl.5918]

> @"Aaron Forestman.4758" said:

> > @"WyvrnRipsnarl.5918" said:

> > I hope it is still okay for music playing with the in-game instruments? :s

>

> There's a policy on unattended gameplay that states it's perfectly fine to use macros and the like for musical instruments.

 

The biggest question is about leaving for **5-10-20 seconds** while the script is playing for music to get water, or for a short bio break (at best **2 minutes**).

You are playing a song for people that is 6 minutes, by example, and have the need to absent yourself for a few seconds or this 2 minutes.

Can we leave the script finish to at least let the player enjoy the music, or we stop it... and the fun for a matter of second to restart the 6 minutes when you coming back.

[System]

This discussion was created from comments split from: Policy: Third-Party Programs.

[Aaron Forestman.4758]

> @"WyvrnRipsnarl.5918" said:

> The biggest question is about leaving for **5-10-20 seconds** while the script is playing for music to get water, or for a short bio break (at best **2 minutes**).

> You are playing a song for people that is 6 minutes, by example, and have the need to absent yourself for a few seconds or this 2 minutes.

> Can we leave the script finish to at least let the player enjoy the music, or we stop it... and the fun for a matter of second to restart the 6 minutes when you coming back.

 

I've been playing GW2 and, for that matter, GW1 for a long time. I've seen people get suspended/banned for a lot of different things, but they all boil down to hurting the game or other players in some way. ANet has some strict policies at times, but they're always in the interest of making the game a more enjoyable experience for the greater player base. Unless somehow they explicitly state that for whatever reason you must be present while your script plays your song for you, I think it's very safe to assume you're in the clear because all you're doing is providing an enjoyable, 100% non-harmful experience to other players.

[Turin.6921]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > The description is made vague and inclusive so that Anet keeps the right to act at any moment if they judge they have to and to not have the responsibility if a 3rd party program is broken or ends up doing sth problematic. That does not mean that ArcDPS and TACO are not still greenlit unless they state otherwise.

> Quite the opposite, they've just stated that no progam is "greenlit". Unless they restate their previous assurances again, things like Arc, Taco and music macros just moved into a gray area.

>

 

Music macros fall into the approved category of macros. They are directly referencing them. Also TACO uses the official API for everything it does. Anet directly controls what goes and what not on the API thus its explicitly seen as "benign".

 

ARCDPS was always in the gray area. But the dev had direct communication with company for the features he added. No reason for the policy to change on this unless sth changed with the relationship between support and the dev. And none of that seems to be happening. Also DPS meters do not really count as giving any gameplay advantage. They just give information about your performance and provide convenience through build templates. They do not fall on the category of giving an "unintended, unnatural, or unfair advantage over another player" to you.

 

The only thing this policy does is make what was already stated more clear. Direct quote: "The policies themselves did not change, but we're outlining them in more detail"

 

If there was any issue with a specific 3rd party program that used to be stated by CS as safe do you think they would not spell that out directly along side the policy update or at least inform the players explicitly not to use any previously tolerated programs?

[levelmakerguru.7210]

I think what this thread is mainly about is the problem with the bot issue in pvp, I am glad they are addressing it, it has really grown out of control, so hopefully you guys will do something very soon. with the other ones taco and Arcdps they are mostly guides and don't create a unfair advantage against other players. Thanks Anet

[rabenpriester.7129]

> @"Silver.2076" said:

> If so, GOD THANK YOU! - it was time to stop this insanity!

 

It's time to stop... for you. Find something else you can be angry about.

 

[Marcel.1857]

Well tbh. i only want to know if arc and the build-templates of arc is allowed.The first is necessary to progress and help player in a static group to progress in raids (a static golem wont help to max your dps on the bosses) and a possibility would be Anet add the options (dps check) for the Raid squads to check the dps (displayed like in arc cleave/cleave per second / raid boss per second) but if you do so it need some conditions like: it need to be activated before entering the raid wings and all players can see in lfg if this option is disabled or enabled by an icon and an Msg on the screen so each group can choose if they want or not.

[maddoctor.2738]

I'm curious what has changed because the policy is the same as it always was?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Quite the opposite, they've just stated that no progam is "greenlit". Unless they restate their previous assurances again, things like Arc, Taco and music macros just moved into a gray area.

>

From the description mouse/keyboard software and voice chat software are also excluded because they CLEARLY break the **We do not permit the use of any program that gives one player an unintended, unnatural, or unfair advantage over another player.** unless they clarify. If I'm on voice chat in PVP I can communicate better with my teammates and have an unfair advantage if the opposing team doesn't use voice chat. Same in Raids, they give raiding teams a clear unfair advantage over random groups without voice communication making lots of encounters easier.

[Loosmaster.8263]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Quite the opposite, they've just stated that no progam is "greenlit". Unless they restate their previous assurances again, things like Arc, Taco and music macros just moved into a gray area.

> >

> From the description mouse/keyboard software and voice chat software are also excluded because they CLEARLY break the **We do not permit the use of any program that gives one player an unintended, unnatural, or unfair advantage over another player.** unless they clarify. If I'm on voice chat in PVP I can communicate better with my teammates and have an unfair advantage if the opposing team doesn't use voice chat. Same in Raids, they give raiding teams a clear unfair advantage over random groups without voice communication making lots of encounters easier.

 

Voice chat is NOT 3rd party software that uses or interacts with game data.

[ClaraFee.2579]

I'd like to know what the policy is on using an informational overlay in WvW.

 

For solo PVE play an overlay seems inconsequential. But for WvW an overlay can give entire player groups an advantage over others. For example, you could use an overlay to see that a Tower was just flipped and has RI for another 4 minutes. Armed with this knowledge a party or whole zerg could be redirected to a different tower that is immediately available to capture. If zerg A knows what objectives are on RI at all times, and zerg B doesn't, then zerg A has a tactical advantage, all thanks to the overlay.

 

On the other hand, there are a number of websites that offer the same information in a browser window or phone app, and thus don't qualify as _third party programs_ in the context of this policy.

 

So is using overlay information in-game not permitted, but getting the same information from a web browser or app is permitted? I don't have an opinion or argument either way, and truthfully I 'm not really interested in what other players think - only what ArenaNet's policy is. @"Gaile Gray.6029" - can you clarify please? Thanks! :)

[Rod.6581]

> @"WyvrnRipsnarl.5918" said:

> > @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> > "Does this program allow someone to 'play' when he/she is not at the computer?"

> I hope it is still okay for music playing with the in-game instruments? :s

 

You may use music macros to compose or perform in-game music. As long as the macro is used solely for the composition or performance of in-game music and the account is actively attended by a player, we do not place restrictions on its use.

 

Source: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65554/policy-macros-and-macro-use#latest

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"ClaraFee.2579" said:

> I'd like to know what the policy is on using an informational overlay in WvW.

>

> For solo PVE play an overlay seems inconsequential. But for WvW an overlay can give entire player groups an advantage over others. For example, you could use an overlay to see that a Tower was just flipped and has RI for another 4 minutes. Armed with this knowledge a party or whole zerg could be redirected to a different tower that is immediately available to capture. If zerg A knows what objectives are on RI at all times, and zerg B doesn't, then zerg A has a tactical advantage, all thanks to the overlay.

>

> On the other hand, there are a number of websites that offer the same information in a browser window or phone app, and thus don't qualify as _third party programs_ in the context of this policy.

>

> So is using overlay information in-game not permitted, but getting the same information from a web browser or app is permitted? I don't have an opinion or argument either way, and truthfully I 'm not really interested in what other players think - only what ArenaNet's policy is. @"Gaile Gray.6029" - can you clarify please? Thanks! :)

 

You do know that information is available by hovering your pointer over the UI on the mini map right?

 

And by clicking on a tower you can tell if their tactics are on cool down...

 

So.. an overlay that does the things you mentioned would actually impede you... unless you mean other things that aren’t noted here.

[Hugheszie.6291]

We do not permit the use of any program that gives one player an unintended, unnatural, or unfair advantage over another player. This includes programs that alter game balance in favor of one player over another, automate actions within the game, promote unattended gameplay, or have an adverse effect on other players.

 

The best way for you to assess whether a specific third-party program could have any impact on another player is to ask:

 

"Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn't use the program?"

 

**ArcDPS.**

[Infusion.7149]

Are people really comparing _voice coms _ (TS/discord/etc) and recording software (obs/shadowplay/relive) with arcdps? Seriously? One hooks into the game , one doesn't at all.

 

I still remember the mapping tools for GW1 that compared your mapping progress with a fully unlocked map. Essentially it was an overlay so there were no game-breaking features.

 

Unless deltaconnected changed it, arcdps just parses the combat log , although other players' damage isn't typically shown to you (this is probably the main point of contention). Asking Arenanet to vet every revision is just extra work for them. There's been other DPS meters that have been against the policy such as BGDM (range/gear check/memory editing). Even on arcdps' site it says in bug red letters "use at your own risk". Should people be banned for arcdps? No. Should people be wary of any arcdps changes? yes.

 

Given the fact that some raids are an HP sponge (bad design), I think that Arenanet should provide options that don't involve external programs to show player damage in raiding environments , they have the tools because PvP has graphs for damage, heal, etc. There's also the damage golem which already has a DPS result for players to see. The combat log is a flood of information otherwise.

 

The definition Gaile has given for a disallowed program would mean ArcDPS gives you a huge advantage (i.e. you don't normally have access to other players outgoing damage or boon uptime).

 

 

[Pax.3548]

> @"Marcel.1857" said:

> Well tbh. i only want to know if arc and the build-templates of arc is allowed.The first is necessary to progress and help player in a static group to progress in raids (a static golem wont help to max your dps on the bosses) and a possibility would be Anet add the options (dps check) for the Raid squads to check the dps (displayed like in arc cleave/cleave per second / raid boss per second) but if you do so it need some conditions like: it need to be activated before entering the raid wings and all players can see in lfg if this option is disabled or enabled by an icon and an Msg on the screen so each group can choose if they want or not.

 

This actually sounds pretty fair for everyone

[BlueJin.4127]

> @"Capodicapis.6819" said:

> Ban any dps meter, that would be a step in the right direction for the health of the game and community.

 

It’s very unfortunate that people have knee jerk reactions like this without thinking things through.

 

If criminals run people over with cars, should cars be banned?

If criminals beat people with baseball bats, should baseball bats be banned?

If criminals play GW2 then slash people with knives, should GW2 be banned?

 

There are people who twist anything meant for proper use and use them for nefarious purposes. The issue is not the objects, but the few people who use them to do terrible things. Imagine if everybody goes, “Hey, some idiot did something terrible with a certain tool. Since I don’t care about that tool, let’s just ban it and call it a day.” It wouldn’t solve anything because we’re not addressing the source of the problem. We would, however, lose everything useful because there will always be somebody who doesn’t care about what you care about.

 

---

 

In terms of what programs should be allowed and why, it generally depends on if they go against the design of the game and/or if they cause problems for the game.

 

A voice communication that allows better communication - Tools that simply let you better communicate with teammates is not against the game's design and is OK to use.

A communication tool that let's you see the enemy team's communication - Players are not intended to see the opposing team's communication so seeing the other team's communication is against the design of the game. Therefore, this is against the rules.

 

A DPS meter that help players become better at their roles - Tools that simply help players become better players themselves without automated processes are OK to use as it does not go against the design of the game.

A rotation tool that automatically uses skills for the player - Tools that automate players' actions are against the design of the game and are, therefore, not allowed.

 

**I'm not an Anet employee or speak on their behalf in anyway.** I did used to work for a game company and have experience in various video game tournaments and above are some ways I can explain to help. There are lots of gray areas and while some aren't so gray, there are always players who interpret things in other ways. I have no answer to that and just saying "use common sense" would not be a very useful answer. The best thing to do is, when in doubt, ask Anet directly.

 

If Anet says no, then you should not use that tool. Every player who cheats has excuses on why their cheating is not cheating and how it's justified. If Anet allowed these, then the game would be an unplayable mess. This is why every competition has rules and all players who play must comply with those rules. Otherwise, the game loses its integrity. If you purposefully break the stated rules without really good reasons, you can get banned and Anet won’t care what your justifications are.

 

If Anet doesn't give an answer, talk to players and see what the general opinion seems to be. Even if you think your program is OK to use, if the majority of the players think it's shady, odds are, Anet will fall under the majority.

[BoyC.2653]

> But ANet can't promise you that [...] "TACO" might not screw up your game files.

I, however (being the developer of TacO), can.

 

TacO only uses official APIs exposed by the game client and through the web. Unless ArenaNet adds some sort of API to the client to access client side assets (something that I can guarantee you will never happen), TacO will not have the capability of "screwing up" your game files, or your registry entries, or anything related to the game. The overlay is a self contained package that only gathers data through official channels. (This is also the reason why TacO 'just works' without needing it to be patched up with each new client release. Like any good programmer, I'm lazy.)

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Hugheszie.6291" said:

> We do not permit the use of any program that gives one player an unintended, unnatural, or unfair advantage over another player. This includes programs that alter game balance in favor of one player over another, automate actions within the game, promote unattended gameplay, or have an adverse effect on other players.

>

> The best way for you to assess whether a specific third-party program could have any impact on another player is to ask:

>

> "Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn't use the program?"

>

> **ArcDPS.**

 

How does seeing DPS, buff uptime and some other stuff give them any advantage?

 

Like, that information is there. It's just inconvenient to gather. It doesn't play FOR you.

[Walhalla.5473]

> @"Capodicapis.6819" said:

> Ban any dps meter, that would be a step in the right direction for the health of the game and community.

 

How would this help the community in any way?

 

We had quite a good amount of class discrimination ( bad enough to exclude some classes or just stack one class on every encounter ), before we had access to such tools. Those tools helped the community to fight class discrimination and now every class has a chance to get included into content.

[Tiscan.8345]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> I understand fully that ANET might not be thrilled with addons like TACO that literally give you in game prompts to completing JPs, but there is some middle ground here.

 

That made me laugh so hard. They are obviously so "not thrilled" that they have to tweet links to Tekkit's guides where he shows off his marker-packs:

 

 

(( and these are just some of the tweets they sent in the past ))

[Maikimaik.1974]

> @"BoyC.2653" said:

> > But ANet can't promise you that [...] "TACO" might not screw up your game files.

> I, however (being the developer of TacO), can.

Of course you are.

 

[cyres.9140]

I just logged in for the first time in years in this forum account, and wanted to say something about TaCo... i think some people dont really have an Idea what it is and what it does (and why i personally think it doesn't give you the super advantage and why ANet even likes them).

 

First of all, Taco is an addon (3rd party program) for Guild Wars 2, which gives you an Tactical (Tac...) Overlay (...o), it is highly configurable and customizable to your needs. The whole idea behind it, or the main selling point for me is, to make your life easier ingame via different markers on the map, a compass, or just highlights where your mouse pointer is at the moment. What it does NOT do is giving you the most efficient route or whatever, at least not in my experience.

 

So there are these so called marker packs, created by other players and not by the program itself (thats why i think Arena Net could like this addon, it doesnt do anything on its own. Players have to work together and share what works best for them, what is one of the main selling points in GW2 working TOGETHER). These marker packs are not always the most efficient routes, but more of a rough path you can follow. Best example i personally use the one from Tekkit mostly for the Chests in Domain Istan, and what i realized is that his route isnt really efficient but by using the markers i dont have to use any browser guide or w/e and need to alt tab the entire time. And in all honesty there will never be the most efficient route ever in one of those marker packs, for the sole reason that not every player has the exact same skills or are lacking things like the Griphon or Maxed out Glider.

 

So from my point of view, Taco isnt forbidden and shouldnt be, it is a pure QoL thing, i am working fulltime and have roughly 2 hours top on a workday to play GW2, if they forbid a program, that makes it possible for me to experience some content that i enjoy, that makes it possible for me to play this game without having to learn atleast a few dozen farm routes... well then honestly, then i will quit this game. Please dont hate me for that statement, but seriously there are other things in my Life than Guild Wars 2, more important things, things that would make it nearly impossible for me to learn every route, every chest location, every boss location... The only point i COULD understand is that people who use it for Jumping Puzzles, but even then, if i wouldnt use Taco for it then i would use a youtube guide.

[Bashi.8902]

So pretty simple question here. Since the Policies got updated im curious. Can we use UI mods and custom damage numbers and stuff now? Are DPS meters allowed? Damage Numbers for example are a huge mess and ruin visibility in pvp. It feels bad if you cant see a shieldblock or something on a warrior because of the huge red text in his face and blow your big cooldowns into it lol. Just asking if its possible nowadays. If not why not allow it to just turn them off completely. You can see them in the combat log anyway if you want to see it. Some of the UI is also really outdated and a mess tbh. Just asking.