Changing downed state in WvWvW

[LionZero.3479]

Downed state in it's current state has always been in favour for bigger groups vs smaller, and while the ''no downed state week'' was fun for some a lot of others might have enjoyed it less.

So why not introduce a middleground.

 

The current '' Downed Penalty '' works as following: '' Each time you are downed, you earn one point of downed penalty that lasts for 60 seconds. For each point, your initial health bar is reduced by 25%. Characters that accumulate four penalty points are automatically defeated, i.e. if you are downed four times within a minute, you do not have a chance to rally. ''

 

How about changing this mechanic to be less forgiving let's say one can be downed once to 50% hp and if one is downed again in the next '' 2 '' minutes they are ''defeated''.

 

Changing how '' Downed Penalty'' works in WvWvW would not only be better for the smaller vs bigger groups but also would encourge more focused play in organised guild vs guild groups.

 

[steki.1478]

It wouldnt change anything because smaller group isnt able to down bigger one more than 2 times anyway. I never understood these threads, stop making up excuses for not being able to wipe bigger groups. It's supposed to be skill based, you can use the same classes, compositions, strategies they do. If they are rezzing too much then you're not creating enough pressure (and poison) on those. If they are still wiping you then maybe it's because you underestimated them, overestimated yourself and/or just because it's intended for higher numbers to have advantage.

 

The only place where current downed penalty has full potential is in 3-way choke point fights (mostly SM lord's room) or inside keeps under heavy siege/vs similar skilled group (which is another choke fight).

 

Nerfing downed penalty would only hurt squishy classes for no reason, it doesnt fix or help anything because squishy classes are the most balanced ones in large fights. What you need is better terrain control over your enemy.

[LionZero.3479]

Your first assumption doesn't hold much ground from recent experience hench the suggestion.

Infact it's fairly acceptable to pull off downing the same person twice or even three times in a fight vs bigger groups,.

 

However when taking into account that you need to down the same person 4!!! times within 1!!! minute after rally to ensure a defeated state, said person has been warned so often by then that they can easily sit out 1 minute to ensure they can get freebied forever.

 

Currenly ressing is way to easy for bigger groups to pull off specially with some Gaurd and Necro's around, if you could take em out of the fight and lower their numbers by forcing deafed state one by one you peel the bigger groups down much quicker, and ensure ability to push and create more active play much sooner in these situations.

 

And regarding punishment of the softer classes they often have the position advantage and tools over the melee to compensate for that in the first place.

 

[steki.1478]

> @"LionZero.3479" said:

 

> Currenly ressing is way to easy for bigger groups to pull off specially with some Gaurd and Necro's around.

 

That's the main issue then, not the downed mechanic.

 

> And regarding punishment of the softer classes they often have the position advantage and tools over the melee to compensate for that in the first place.

 

1. There's no such thing as melee in zergs, almost everything has range nowadays (and spb/dd have huge mobility anyway)

2. Positioning capability is the same for everyone except necros. Besides, having good positioning doesnt mean you cant be focused since, again, everyone has mobility (and burst) nowadays.

[Justine.6351]

What you are not appreciating @"steki.1478" is that nobody should be dependent on downed state as a second life bar. Why do you think there is such a huge disparity between a zergling and a roamer? They never learned how to play defensively because they can just pushpushpush until they are put into downed state and just lay there until rally while their team continues to pushpushpush.

[Skotlex.7580]

If it were my design call, in wvw I would remove rallying (so you must rely on others to come pick you up while downed) and after one recovery, the downed arrow goes red, meaning instant defeat if you get downed again (could provably reduce the duration of the red arrow penalty to 30 seconds or so).

 

of course, there's a need to tone down current burst levels or zerg clashes will result in instant graveyards.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"LionZero.3479" said:

> Downed state in it's current state has always been in favour for bigger groups vs smaller

No, it's in favor of the group that's successfully able to res people actually. That's called teamwork. Just as the group focusing the people running in res and downing an additional 5+ just because 1 went down work together to use downed enemies against them. What's in favor of a bigger group vs a smaller group is... the fact it's a bigger group vs a smaller group.

 

Guilds and organized groups large or small already have the advantage of teamwork.

 

Or at least I think so, I find it somewhat amusing that people in favor of changing/removing/nerfing downed state are basicly saying that guild groups need simpler and easier fights because they are too bad to leverage their already massive advantage of supposed skill, teamwork and organisation. I suppose they're not wrong in some cases.

[reddie.5861]

> @"Skotlex.7580" said:

> If it were my design call, in wvw I would remove rallying (so you must rely on others to come pick you up while downed) and after one recovery, the downed arrow goes red, meaning instant defeat if you get downed again (could provably reduce the duration of the red arrow penalty to 30 seconds or so).

>

> of course, there's a need to tone down current burst levels or zerg clashes will result in instant graveyards.

 

would do same, if u go down in wvw only way back up is by some1 helping you do so i would remove self res also.

but in this case if it was up to me id let people insta die and increase the speed of ressing a dead ally, and remove the incombat restriction again.

 

why the insta dead and fasten up res speed, just for the sake of giving enemy players their bags and not having to wait out a downstate

the increased res and remove of restriction just because i didnt wanna punish people for dieing. so basically at the end nothing changed i just cut out downstate but res from fully dead to alive takes just a split(or a few) second longer then getting one up from downstate.

 

but tbh pointless anyway to discuss WvW is done there is nothing gonna be changed here anymore beside a shitty alliance system which in my eyes will be the dead sting for WvW. Cus all em amazing pro players are dumb enough to pair up together like they do already nowadays instead of splitting over all servers so the fun is everywhere ;) the alliance system just gonna drain out players even faster to point only casual/roamers are left over (already almost like this)

[LionZero.3479]

I like how you're trying to spin ''bigger numbers have an easier time ressing'' into '' no that's called teamwork''.

 

Bigger numbers have an easier time to res since the risk/reward is a lot more lenient.

As for organised groups vs bigger unorganised groups, the latter never realy resses much anyway and if they do they usually wipe even quicker tanking all the casts on downed as you stated.

 

This is mainly to ensure the bigger more or somewhat organised groups can't saferes forever and lose people along the way and give the smaller group a chance to break them up.

 

[steki.1478]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> What you are not appreciating @"steki.1478" is that nobody should be dependent on downed state as a second life bar. Why do you think there is such a huge disparity between a zergling and a roamer?

 

Why do you think there's a disparity? Why would you assume that every roamer plays solo? A lot of roaming classes can rez allies easier due to stealth, generally good sustain, invulns or something else. Not to mention that roamers have a lot higher mobility than zerg builds, which contradicts with your own argument in previous comment (mobility=advantage over "melee", which I assume is main squad).

 

If nobody should be dependent on second life bar then why do some classes have 19k hp and some 11k? Why do some classes have huge mobility, evades, stealth while others heavily rely on defensive gear stats? Why can some classes 1-shot you every 10 second from stealth while others dont even have access to stealth/evades/blocks? Downed state existed for what, 6 years? Why is it suddenly a problem?

 

> They never learned how to play defensively because they can just pushpushpush until they are put into downed state and just lay there until rally while their team continues to pushpushpush.

 

So if they dont play defensively why do you have hard time cleaving their downeds with a smaller groups? If they only push why dont you catch the ones struggling behind? Why are you letting them rally if they are just sitting there doing nothing?

 

Don't mix karma trains with actual zergs. If they really are what you say then you should have no problem wiping them with smaller group. If you cant beat them with skill, beat them with same numbers, pugs are easy to find nowadays anyway.

[Swagger.1459]

Downstate favors anyone who was downed, regardless of game mode... And this mode happens to be wvw, that was built for mass pvp combat, so please stop trying to change mechanics based off of “small scale” stuff.

 

Just remember, STRUCTURED pvp provides the balanced numbers of players some of you are looking for, so please take advantage of it.