Discussion Re Open-world deaths: Player corpses become unrezzable and no longer scale up bosses

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Biff.5312" said:

> > > > @"Yargesh.4965" said:

> > > > According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

> > >

> > > Does that mean the event de-scales if they start off the event alive but remain lying around once dead? I find that doubtful.

> >

> > As far as I am aware events do not scale down, they only scale up.

> Parts of the event (like levels of mobs, and all _future_ mob spawns) do scale down. Other elements (like already spawned mob quantity, or veterancy of already spawned enemies) obviously don't.

>

 

Boss health also scales up and down. It was quite visible with 3rd party tools like BGDM at bosses like tequatl.

[Biff.5312]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> It would surely add to the difficulty of some boss fights if you could only be rezzed within 1 minute, and could not rejoin the boss fight after one minute or teleporting.

>

> Some bosses could really use such a challenge. In my cases, people just bulk the damage and die because (especially with mounts) the waypoints are around the corner.

>

 

This sort of happens with the bandit executioner. Because of the bubble, first of all if everyone inside dies the event fails. Second, if people rez at a wp and return they are kept outside the bubble and in that sense prevented from rejoining the fight.

 

It's a decent system but I don't know if all bosses should have a similar mechanic.

 

 

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > It would surely add to the difficulty of some boss fights if you could only be rezzed within 1 minute, and could not rejoin the boss fight after one minute or teleporting.

> >

> > Some bosses could really use such a challenge. In my cases, people just bulk the damage and die because (especially with mounts) the waypoints are around the corner.

> >

>

> This sort of happens with the bandit executioner. Because of the bubble, first of all if everyone inside dies the event fails. Second, if people rez at a wp and return they are kept outside the bubble and in that sense prevented from rejoining the fight.

>

> It's a decent system but I don't know if all bosses should have a similar mechanic.

>

>

 

It needs to be properly set up, then, and only then, it would be a good system.

As in, people need to be aware of the system, and need to be aware that their actions have consequences.

At this point, death is absolutely pointless and redundant in the game as of now, they may as well remove the health bars.

Every world-boss, and meta boss, has a waypoint around the corner. Every story instance boss, you can keep respawning and keep hitting the boss. Every major encounter, you can just keep running back, nibble a bit of health away, die, rinse and repeat, until you're in your underwear. But still, you can never 'fail' unless there's a timer check.

And even then, timer's are often so lenient. Raids and fractals are the only content I know of, that will reset a boss fight if you die. The loot will become much more valuable if you can't 'corpse-run' the fights

 

for example:

the fire elemental should have fiery walls at the bridge, so if you die and waypoint, you can't get back in.

That said, maybe it's a bad example, because it's almost impossible to die faster than the fire elemental.

But maybe bosses like Tequatl, they unleash a cloud of miasma when they appear. If you're in the zone, you're fine, but if you try to pass through the miasma back into the battlefield, you die.

[DaFishBob.6518]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > It would surely add to the difficulty of some boss fights if you could only be rezzed within 1 minute, and could not rejoin the boss fight after one minute or teleporting.

> >

> > Some bosses could really use such a challenge. In my cases, people just bulk the damage and die because (especially with mounts) the waypoints are around the corner.

> >

>

> This sort of happens with the bandit executioner. Because of the bubble, first of all if everyone inside dies the event fails. Second, if people rez at a wp and return they are kept outside the bubble and in that sense prevented from rejoining the fight.

>

> It's a decent system but I don't know if all bosses should have a similar mechanic.

>

>

 

It was a decent system. Then mounts came along and broke it.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

This shouldn’t be implemented until bosses/world events with oneshot skills/mechanics or combo potential are addressed. Probably the most glaring example is Chak Gerent, who can do 9k lunges which can occasionally hit twice, 12k donuts, 13k cave ins for a boss that people don’t want cc’ed so they can ‘do more dmg’ while ppl, potentially the actual heavy hitters, are being murdered, and no one bothers to res even just downs because they’re either too lazy or it’s way too dangerous to do so anyway...

 

These are world events, so we must to consider problems that can occur when having excess players in the vicinity - lag, invisible aoes and enemies, people disconnecting, etc. Therefore you get additional issues like not being able dodge in time and not seeing what you need to dodge. Imagine landing on Mat’s platform in the middle of the cone aoe (that hits for 4k per second or so) which is invisible. Or get oneshot by a minor wyvern you can’t see.

 

On top of all this, WPs are progressively increasing their distance to the events, even more with the introduction of mounts. Wp’ing is a risk - you can lose rewards if you don’t get back there on time (especially if you don’t have a mount), and sometimes loading screens or sufficient lag (because excess players) is all it takes for the effort and rewards to completely vanish.

 

If the scaling facts listed above are true, dead players stop scaling the event once dead and the choice of ressing is up to you. Players who died horribly cheap deaths would really appreciate it, and players who do more than just AA spam would find it touching when ppl sacrifice their 1-2k dps to restore their 10-20k dps.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> This shouldn’t be implemented until bosses/world events with oneshot skills/mechanics or combo potential are addressed. Probably the most glaring example is Chak Gerent, who can do 9k lunges which can occasionally hit twice, 12k donuts, 13k cave ins for a boss that people don’t want cc’ed so they can ‘do more dmg’ while ppl, potentially the actual heavy hitters, are being murdered, and no one bothers to res even just downs because they’re either too lazy or it’s way too dangerous to do so anyway...

 

In the gerent’s defence, the donut is quite in visible (under normal conditions).

But once death becomes consequential, people will adjust their strategies.

I’ve seen the same with tequatl, people needed one or two rounds to realize you can’t

faceroll the boss anymore.

 

> These are world events, so we must to consider problems that can occur when having excess players in the vicinity - lag, invisible aoes and enemies, people disconnecting, etc. Therefore you get additional issues like not being able dodge in time and not seeing what you need to dodge. Imagine landing on Mat’s platform in the middle of the cone aoe (that hits for 4k per second or so) which is invisible. Or get oneshot by a minor wyvern you can’t see.

 

There is a problem with load orders right now. Load order is defined by the time you appear in the map, and remains fixed. As a result, i can never see world bosses unless i target them. The game wants to load all players, and their summons first, because they were there before the boss spawned.

So ai agree there, it’san issue in load orders that anet needs to resolve, first.

 

> On top of all this, WPs are progressively increasing their distance to the events, even more with the introduction of mounts. Wp’ing is a risk - you can lose rewards if you don’t get back there on time (especially if you don’t have a mount), and sometimes loading screens or sufficient lag (because excess players) is all it takes for the effort and rewards to completely vanish.

 

I saw that in PoF, but subsequently in season 4 we went back to ‘waypoints around the corner’.

 

> If the scaling facts listed above are true, dead players stop scaling the event once dead and the choice of ressing is up to you. Players who died horribly cheap deaths would really appreciate it, and players who do more than just AA spam would find it touching when ppl sacrifice their 1-2k dps to restore their 10-20k dps.

 

I find raids have great combat designs. There are few if no cheap deaths. Most deaths are failing to react to a mechanic.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> I find raids have great combat designs. There are few if no cheap deaths. Most deaths are failing to react to a mechanic.

That is only possible with small-scale fights. For example, raid type mechanics would completely murder players at Frozen Maw encounter, because there are moments you really can't see anything, boss least of all.

 

 

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

~snip~

>

> On top of all this, WPs are progressively increasing their distance to the events, even more with the introduction of mounts. Wp’ing is a risk - you can lose rewards if you don’t get back there on time (especially if you don’t have a mount), and sometimes loading screens or sufficient lag (because excess players) is all it takes for the effort and rewards to completely vanish.

>

~snip~

 

Technically incorrect, was you've participated in an event enough to reach the status of having participated you will still receive the rewards...and not withstanding the notice from PoF events of "You are no longer participating..." you would still get the end of event reward if it was successful. Heck I got plenty of end of event rewards for just passing through and having to kill one enemy because he decided to engage while I was heading somewhere else.

 

[casualkenny.9817]

It is effectively untrue that the dead do not scale up a boss, because depending on my profession, in a group of 5, I can do around 1/3 of the required cc. In a sea of corpses, matriarch's cc bar clearly does not scale back down in time. Wping may cause the scaling to update sooner. If anything, the corpses won't build up.

 

But I think I was not clear enough about the purpose. People do not respawn (when boss is not likely to die in the next 30sec to 1min) because they are cheap and/or lazy. If they are forced to respawn anyway (because the game prevents them from being rezzed), then they are more likely to wp, and wait at the overlook to loot when the boss is killed.

 

I am totally fine with them getting free loot for little effort, as long as they don't cause the fight to drag for 3-8 extra minutes.

 

Rez meaning being rubbed back to life. I am against introducing the raid mechanic into open world casual content (where dead people can't be rezzed AND can no longer rejoin)

 

 

Though if the scaling was more quickly updated (dead people no longer scale the cc bar), I'm also OK with the status quo.

[Ol Nik.2518]

According to [research back in 2015](

"research back in 2015"), dead people still upscale events. [This video](

"This video") shows changes in a VineWrath champion's HPs as dead people teleport to a WP. If there were no major changes in event scaling mechanics in the past 3 years it is better for everyone when dead to leave the area.

[Daddicus.6128]

> @"Yargesh.4965" said:

> According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

 

I have seen this referenced many times, here on the forums, in Reddit, and even the wiki. But, none of those are official sources.

 

Can you cite a source, please?

[Daddicus.6128]

I'm of the exact opposite opinion: in most (not all) events, I think rewards should be removed from players who fail to attempt to revive their downed and defeated allies. And, dead players SHOULD keep the event scaled up. If people want to leave their comrades on the field when they could rally or revive them, then they should be treated as the traitors they are.

 

But, I'm in the minority.

[Linken.6345]

People try to revive downed players its the defeated kittens that f it up for everyone since reviving one of those can get you killed.

Defeated players should get -rewards after 5 seconds of not waypointing.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Kal Spiro.9745" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> >

> > > Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating.

> > > Even a player that is not participating will scale the event up.

> >

> > These are mutually exclusive, so which is it?

>

> The choice of the word "participating" is confusing. The way it sounds, the actual word should be "present." Given past ANet statements, and for the purposes of the thread, present likely means "present and not defeated."

>

> If I were in the mood to edit, the wiki, I'd type, "Players who are present contribute to scaling the event up. If players leave, the event can scale down. It's likely that there are thresholds for both up and down scaling depending on whether the event can be done solo or is a group event (i.e., Shatterer may require larger numbers before scaling will kick in than some random escort in Queensdale)."

 

For that to be true you would also have to be explicit about what your definition of scaling means. If a bunch of lv84 elite adds spawn as a result of scaling they will continue to stick around long after the people that caused the scaling are gone.

 

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> This is going to be unpopular, but There needs to be failure to appreciate success

 

That is only true if you have any control over it.

 

If I finally manage to do something after numerous failures and the success was actually through learning from the previous attempts then sure that would feel awesome.

 

If on the other hand something failed because you got a bunch of people can't even follow instruction as simple as "stand over here" then no.

 

 

[Yargesh.4965]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> > @"Yargesh.4965" said:

> > According to Anet the dead do not scale up the events.

>

> I have seen this referenced many times, here on the forums, in Reddit, and even the wiki. But, none of those are official sources.

>

> Can you cite a source, please?

 

The last I remember was old forums and the wailing that Silverwastes gave not as many loots because it took a couple of minutes longer to kill the bosses because of dead people. If I remember correctly it was Gaile who passed along that information, it could have been a dev though. Frankly I have never seen anything fail because of dead players and really don't care if they want to lay around rather than participate.

[Etria.3642]

As someone who has helped new players to the game get tyrian mastery points by killing world bosses(Teq, kq, etc) please leave things the way they are. New players are deathly afraid to wp when dead in fear of not getting rewards like other games.

 

And as someone who has been distracted by various things, thus causing my own death, please leave the waypoints close. I do respawn and use my mount to get back to help. I am /delighted/ that the latest map has more than 2 wp. I LOVE that if I die during a meta I can quickly get back into things. World events are casual. Inclusive. Leave them that way please and save the raid boss mechanics for raids. (Up to 16 LI, and more than 6 bosses killed. I'm /getting/ there. But I appreciate being able to play casually during the world bosses. Between raids, fractals, and wvw where I have to focus, it's lovely to have somewhere more relaxing to enjoy the game.