Kevin Ardinez.8906 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Zhaitan is the dragon of Death and Shadow can anyone give me example of Shadow magic of Zhaitan? according to the wiki, Zhaitans abilities are "Raise Undead, Poison Cloud , Putrid Explosion, Spray Poison and Summon Tendrils" do you think Poison cloud is considered shadow ability?? i remember NPC (maybe Trehearne (claw island mission) mention about dark clouds above fleet of undead making difficult to see and attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"Kevin Ardinez.8906" said: > Zhaitan is the dragon of Death and Shadow > can anyone give me example of Shadow magic of Zhaitan? > according to the wiki, Zhaitans abilities are "Raise Undead, Poison Cloud , Putrid Explosion, Spray Poison and Summon Tendrils" > do you think Poison cloud is considered shadow ability?? > i remember NPC (maybe Trehearne (claw island mission) mention about dark clouds above fleet of undead making difficult to see and attack > We have been speaking about this topic for a while now. I basically asked the same question in an AFC, unfortunately didn’t get a response. The Shadow magic sphere is a very elusive magic. I went through all the mob data on Risen and found a handful of Risen that use Shadow abilities, not including a shadow step( this might be included in Shadow?) I think it was called shadow orb. I suggested that maybe Zhaitan used Shadow Magic to corrupt the god statues in Orr, but my evidence for it is very small and inconclusive. Unfortunately much like Zhaitan’s weakness, we will need a dev response to sort this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edel.2169 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Well there was that one time when Zhaitan had his invisible minions infiltrate the airship where we were performing tests on the eye. On Claw Island Treaharne mentioned Zhaitan's ships "traveling under the cloak of stealth". Also I've seen someone mention (although i myself do not remember if it's true or not) that often when Risen appear they just suddenly materialize surrounded by shadow tendrils - like thieves coming out of stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ugrakarma.9416 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 It seems that this "shadow" does not refer to shadow magic, but only the old association of death with 'obscure things'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > It seems that this "shadow" does not refer to shadow magic, but only the old association of death with 'obscure things'. That wouldn't make sense, given that the very line telling us about it, is that the Elder Dragons have "two spheres of influence", and Mordremoth's is Plant and Mind while Zhaitan's is Death and Shadow. Would indicate both spheres are about magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 > @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > It seems that this "shadow" does not refer to shadow magic, but only the old association of death with 'obscure things'. The problem is this shadow sphere of magical influence hasn’t been properly explored or defined. I imagine the devs gave Mordremoth two spheres of influence in order to provide a weakness, then thought oh we gave a second sphere to Mordremoth, we need to give Zhaitan a second sphere as well, let’s go Shadow. I mean it kinda makes sense that it would be Shadow, however they never really described what that actually means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 I just assume Shadow refers to the times he uses stealth, well his minions. We see it most clearly with the wraiths in the story, and how Risen seem to spawn in with a shadowy teleport. What we don't see is evidence of the sphere being passed on to any of the others after Zhaitan dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klypto.1703 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > I just assume Shadow refers to the times he uses stealth, well his minions. We see it most clearly with the wraiths in the story, and how Risen seem to spawn in with a shadowy teleport. What we don't see is evidence of the sphere being passed on to any of the others after Zhaitan dies. Its been absorbed by the unnamed dragon and has attended every ninja parade in tyria since zhaitans death. Its so good with shadow magic it is never seen in the ninja parade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > I just assume Shadow refers to the times he uses stealth, well his minions. We see it most clearly with the wraiths in the story, and how Risen seem to spawn in with a shadowy teleport. What we don't see is evidence of the sphere being passed on to any of the others after Zhaitan dies. Yes, I theorized that Risen teleported or spawned into location using shadow magic too. It would be nice if we see another dragon play with the Shadow magic sphere so we know what sort of influence it has. What has also been theorized is that the shadow of the dragon was infused with Shadow Magic from Mordremoth strictly by looking at his abilities in Point of No Return. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malformed_Shadow https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smothering_Shadow We haven’t seen Primordus play with Shadow magic unfortunately either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said: > > I just assume Shadow refers to the times he uses stealth, well his minions. We see it most clearly with the wraiths in the story, and how Risen seem to spawn in with a shadowy teleport. What we don't see is evidence of the sphere being passed on to any of the others after Zhaitan dies. > > Yes, I theorized that Risen teleported or spawned into location using shadow magic too. It would be nice if we see another dragon play with the Shadow magic sphere so we know what sort of influence it has. > > What has also been theorized is that the shadow of the dragon was infused with Shadow Magic from Mordremoth strictly by looking at his abilities in Point of No Return. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Tendril > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malformed_Shadow > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smothering_Shadow > > We haven’t seen Primordus play with Shadow magic unfortunately either. > I forgot about the shadow of the dragon, but yeah overall it's the least shown sphere so far. Well least shown that's actually been named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Ardinez.8906 Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 I always associated "Shadow Magic" with Dark Smoke/Mist/cloud that Blind enemies and hide allies (Like the combo "Smoke Fields") similar thinking with "Fire magic" with flames that Burn enemies and cleanse Condis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 > @"Kevin Ardinez.8906" said: > I always associated "Shadow Magic" with Dark Smoke/Mist/cloud that Blind enemies and hide allies (Like the combo "Smoke Fields") > similar thinking with "Fire magic" with flames that Burn enemies and cleanse Condis > > > > > I mean it makes sense Elementalists use fire and ice and Primordus uses fire magic and Jormag uses ice magic. We have thief that uses several different skills that have shadow in its name as well as traits. Is this the same magic that Zhaitan used? I’m not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannelore.8153 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Shadow magic is the magic of stealth and subterfuge. Zhaitan used these abilities many times--commonly associated with Mesmers and Theives-- including at one point cloaking an entire fleet of bone ships, and at another trying to destroy Fort Trinity by infilitration. This is never confirmed in lore, but if you look at Personal Story, Zhaitan used more trickery than any other dragon by far. He was the only dragon to not directly approach problems and instead try to take them out indirectly--and the only time he shows up in game is when he's pressed to directly intervene, in contrast to dragons like Modremoth and Kralkatorrik who were literally everywhere. > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Kevin Ardinez.8906" said: > > Zhaitan is the dragon of Death and Shadow > > can anyone give me example of Shadow magic of Zhaitan? > > according to the wiki, Zhaitans abilities are "Raise Undead, Poison Cloud , Putrid Explosion, Spray Poison and Summon Tendrils" > > do you think Poison cloud is considered shadow ability?? > > i remember NPC (maybe Trehearne (claw island mission) mention about dark clouds above fleet of undead making difficult to see and attack > > > We have been speaking about this topic for a while now. I basically asked the same question in an AFC, unfortunately didn’t get a response. The Shadow magic sphere is a very elusive magic. I went through all the mob data on Risen and found a handful of Risen that use Shadow abilities, not including a shadow step( this might be included in Shadow?) I think it was called shadow orb. I suggested that maybe Zhaitan used Shadow Magic to corrupt the god statues in Orr, but my evidence for it is very small and inconclusive. Unfortunately much like Zhaitan’s weakness, we will need a dev response to sort this out. > Zhaitan's weakness doesn't need a dev response, its incredibly obvious. Caladbolg was a weapon forged by a purified dragon champion with an opposite sphere of influence to him (Life versus Death), similar to Primordus and Jormag. The whole point of LS3 was to point out these counter-acting spheres of influence.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > Shadow magic is the magic of stealth and subterfuge. Zhaitan used these abilities many times--commonly associated with Mesmers and Theives-- including at one point cloaking an entire fleet of bone ships, and at another trying to destroy Fort Trinity by infilitration. > > This is never confirmed in lore, but if you look at Personal Story, Zhaitan used more trickery than any other dragon by far. He was the only dragon to not directly approach problems and instead try to take them out indirectly--and the only time he shows up in game is when he's pressed to directly intervene, in contrast to dragons like Modremoth and Kralkatorrik who were literally everywhere. > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Kevin Ardinez.8906" said: > > > Zhaitan is the dragon of Death and Shadow > > > can anyone give me example of Shadow magic of Zhaitan? > > > according to the wiki, Zhaitans abilities are "Raise Undead, Poison Cloud , Putrid Explosion, Spray Poison and Summon Tendrils" > > > do you think Poison cloud is considered shadow ability?? > > > i remember NPC (maybe Trehearne (claw island mission) mention about dark clouds above fleet of undead making difficult to see and attack > > > > > We have been speaking about this topic for a while now. I basically asked the same question in an AFC, unfortunately didn’t get a response. The Shadow magic sphere is a very elusive magic. I went through all the mob data on Risen and found a handful of Risen that use Shadow abilities, not including a shadow step( this might be included in Shadow?) I think it was called shadow orb. I suggested that maybe Zhaitan used Shadow Magic to corrupt the god statues in Orr, but my evidence for it is very small and inconclusive. Unfortunately much like Zhaitan’s weakness, we will need a dev response to sort this out. > > > Zhaitan's weakness doesn't need a dev response, its incredibly obvious. Caladbolg was a weapon forged by a purified dragon champion with an opposite sphere of influence to him (Life versus Death), similar to Primordus and Jormag. > > The whole point of LS3 was to point out these counter-acting spheres of influence.. We got a dev response on Zhaitan’s weakness... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38094/zhaitan-weakness#latest I was stating we would need a dev response to sort out shadow magic properly. Unless they explain it in the living world episode. A lot of those abilities could counted as Risen thieves and mesmers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > Shadow magic is the magic of stealth and subterfuge. Zhaitan used these abilities many times--commonly associated with Mesmers and Theives-- including at one point cloaking an entire fleet of bone ships, and at another trying to destroy Fort Trinity by infilitration. > > This is never confirmed in lore, but if you look at Personal Story, Zhaitan used more trickery than any other dragon by far. He was the only dragon to not directly approach problems and instead try to take them out indirectly--and the only time he shows up in game is when he's pressed to directly intervene, in contrast to dragons like Modremoth and Kralkatorrik who were literally everywhere. The problem is twofold: We see risen using guardian magic, elementalist magic, and really all other kinds of forms of magic. How do we know these cloaking is Zhaitan's abilities, and not simply the risen's abilities from before corruption? Secondly, Zhaitan himself never shows use of these abilities; he himself never stealths or creates illusions. He might not show up until the end, but it's not like he goes invisible. Jormag and Primordus are never seen until you reach the heart of their domains, for example, just like Zhaitan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > > Shadow magic is the magic of stealth and subterfuge. Zhaitan used these abilities many times--commonly associated with Mesmers and Theives-- including at one point cloaking an entire fleet of bone ships, and at another trying to destroy Fort Trinity by infilitration. > > > > This is never confirmed in lore, but if you look at Personal Story, Zhaitan used more trickery than any other dragon by far. He was the only dragon to not directly approach problems and instead try to take them out indirectly--and the only time he shows up in game is when he's pressed to directly intervene, in contrast to dragons like Modremoth and Kralkatorrik who were literally everywhere. > > The problem is twofold: We see risen using guardian magic, elementalist magic, and really all other kinds of forms of magic. How do we know these cloaking is Zhaitan's abilities, and not simply the risen's abilities from before corruption? I think the general assumption is shadow magic and the shadow domain overlap like death magic and the death domain. This could be entirely incorrect, but it seems like the simplest usage of the available nomenclature. > Secondly, Zhaitan himself never shows use of these abilities; he himself never stealths or creates illusions. He might not show up until the end, but it's not like he goes invisible. Jormag and Primordus are never seen until you reach the heart of their domains, for example, just like Zhaitan. This is somewhat of a stretch but we did see Zhaitain alter his eyesight, and if that relates to the deadeye usage of shadow magic perhaps the cloaking does as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 We have to start with instances of known "shadow" magic. That in GW1 usually meant skills and attacks with shadow or dark types of damage, and assassin's shadow arts. In GW2 we have "Shadow Arts" in thieves, and darkness fields. Shadow damage was a form of magical damage that ignored armor, while dark damage was not physical or elemental so specific armor bonuses did nothing against it, but it did not ignore armor. Skills with shadow damage went past defenses and stole health. Darkness fields trigger blindness and life steal, and the "Shadow Arts" line is about being sneaky. That tells us that shadow/dark magics are about keeping the enemy from perceiving things and taking things away from them. Zhaitan did have a few deceptive minions, mesmers and things lurking in the shadows, but that could just be the powers they had in life. Then we had the new powers Mordremoth appeared to have after getting a jolt of leyline magic. Mefore the breachmaker, his minions were mostly makeshift mockeries, but after we visit the heart of maguuma, Mordremoth had two new tricks: * He could make minions out of coprses. * He could replicate minions endlessly. And he have actually seen Zhaitan replicating minions endlessly. He needed corpses to make his most powerful minions like abominations and knights, but he had these fish heads that could endlessly weak risen. There's even an event that deals with them, so they are not merely a non-canon 'device' to spawn endless waves of enemies, they are actually a thing. Nothing can be made out nothing, and a risen thrawll or a brute is too complex to be made just like that. Which means there was some magic replicating minions inside. If that magic came from Zhaitan, that could be the 'shadow' part. That would mean that shadow magic can also make 'shadows', replicas of an original. And Mordremoth's version of that would be the endless replicas he could make from people and corpses trapped in blighting pods. So that's a few things shadow/dark magic seems to be involved with: * Veiling in shadows. That can make things hard to see, or completely unseen, and even protect. * Going past defenses, like a shadow. How do you defend against the darkness? * Taking things away from others. Even abstract untouchable things like life and boons. * Making copies of creatures, like bringing to life shadows people cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > We have to start with instances of known "shadow" magic. > > That in GW1 usually meant skills and attacks with shadow or dark types of damage, and assassin's shadow arts. > In GW2 we have "Shadow Arts" in thieves, and darkness fields. > > Shadow damage was a form of magical damage that ignored armor, while dark damage was not physical or elemental so specific armor bonuses did nothing against it, but it did not ignore armor. > Skills with shadow damage went past defenses and stole health. > Darkness fields trigger blindness and life steal, and the "Shadow Arts" line is about being sneaky. > > > That tells us that shadow/dark magics are about keeping the enemy from perceiving things and taking things away from them. > > Zhaitan did have a few deceptive minions, mesmers and things lurking in the shadows, but that could just be the powers they had in life. > > Then we had the new powers Mordremoth appeared to have after getting a jolt of leyline magic. > Mefore the breachmaker, his minions were mostly makeshift mockeries, but after we visit the heart of maguuma, Mordremoth had two new tricks: > > * He could make minions out of coprses. > * He could replicate minions endlessly. > > And he have actually seen Zhaitan replicating minions endlessly. He needed corpses to make his most powerful minions like abominations and knights, but he had these fish heads that could endlessly weak risen. There's even an event that deals with them, so they are not merely a non-canon 'device' to spawn endless waves of enemies, they are actually a thing. Nothing can be made out nothing, and a risen thrawll or a brute is too complex to be made just like that. Which means there was some magic replicating minions inside. > If that magic came from Zhaitan, that could be the 'shadow' part. That would mean that shadow magic can also make 'shadows', replicas of an original. And Mordremoth's version of that would be the endless replicas he could make from people and corpses trapped in blighting pods. > > So that's a few things shadow/dark magic seems to be involved with: > > * Veiling in shadows. That can make things hard to see, or completely unseen, and even protect. > * Going past defenses, like a shadow. How do you defend against the darkness? > * Taking things away from others. Even abstract untouchable things like life and boons. > * Making copies of creatures, like bringing to life shadows people cast. > > We should just be lucky Zhaitan never hit us with a Rasengan, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > We have to start with instances of known "shadow" magic. > > That in GW1 usually meant skills and attacks with shadow or dark types of damage, and assassin's shadow arts. > In GW2 we have "Shadow Arts" in thieves, and darkness fields. > > Shadow damage was a form of magical damage that ignored armor, while dark damage was not physical or elemental so specific armor bonuses did nothing against it, but it did not ignore armor. > Skills with shadow damage went past defenses and stole health. > Darkness fields trigger blindness and life steal, and the "Shadow Arts" line is about being sneaky. > > > That tells us that shadow/dark magics are about keeping the enemy from perceiving things and taking things away from them. > > Zhaitan did have a few deceptive minions, mesmers and things lurking in the shadows, but that could just be the powers they had in life. > > Then we had the new powers Mordremoth appeared to have after getting a jolt of leyline magic. > Mefore the breachmaker, his minions were mostly makeshift mockeries, but after we visit the heart of maguuma, Mordremoth had two new tricks: > > * He could make minions out of coprses. > * He could replicate minions endlessly. > > And he have actually seen Zhaitan replicating minions endlessly. He needed corpses to make his most powerful minions like abominations and knights, but he had these fish heads that could endlessly weak risen. There's even an event that deals with them, so they are not merely a non-canon 'device' to spawn endless waves of enemies, they are actually a thing. Nothing can be made out nothing, and a risen thrawll or a brute is too complex to be made just like that. Which means there was some magic replicating minions inside. > If that magic came from Zhaitan, that could be the 'shadow' part. That would mean that shadow magic can also make 'shadows', replicas of an original. And Mordremoth's version of that would be the endless replicas he could make from people and corpses trapped in blighting pods. > > So that's a few things shadow/dark magic seems to be involved with: > > * Veiling in shadows. That can make things hard to see, or completely unseen, and even protect. > * Going past defenses, like a shadow. How do you defend against the darkness? > * Taking things away from others. Even abstract untouchable things like life and boons. > * Making copies of creatures, like bringing to life shadows people cast. > You bring a number of good points. I do want to say that I think we have seen Mordremoth using Shadow Magic, during his final battle scenario as well as with the Shadow of the Dragon in LWS2. When Andrew Gray answered that the other dragon’s could not use corpses before Zhaitan’s death, he advised that Mordremoth had the ability to make clones then, except they had to be living beings. Mordremoth also appears to have the ability to create customs Mordrem as well for very specific purposes, The Vinetooth to combat the exalted for example, however I believe this might be a slower process and a drain on his resources. The Blighting trees are faster minion production factories. I would think that Mordremoth making multiple clones is his natural ability, and perhaps reserved Shadow Magic for special instances, like imbuing the Shadow of the Dragon. What is strange though we don’t see Primordus or Kralkatorrik use Shadow Magic. It appears Kralkatorrik obtained the death and mind spheres, while Primordus obtained death and plant. Jormag also appears to have obtained death and plant too, however we only have the one minion to based that off of. Where is the shadow magic sphere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > We have to start with instances of known "shadow" magic. > > > > That in GW1 usually meant skills and attacks with shadow or dark types of damage, and assassin's shadow arts. > > In GW2 we have "Shadow Arts" in thieves, and darkness fields. > > > > Shadow damage was a form of magical damage that ignored armor, while dark damage was not physical or elemental so specific armor bonuses did nothing against it, but it did not ignore armor. > > Skills with shadow damage went past defenses and stole health. > > Darkness fields trigger blindness and life steal, and the "Shadow Arts" line is about being sneaky. > > > > > > That tells us that shadow/dark magics are about keeping the enemy from perceiving things and taking things away from them. > > > > Zhaitan did have a few deceptive minions, mesmers and things lurking in the shadows, but that could just be the powers they had in life. > > > > Then we had the new powers Mordremoth appeared to have after getting a jolt of leyline magic. > > Mefore the breachmaker, his minions were mostly makeshift mockeries, but after we visit the heart of maguuma, Mordremoth had two new tricks: > > > > * He could make minions out of coprses. > > * He could replicate minions endlessly. > > > > And he have actually seen Zhaitan replicating minions endlessly. He needed corpses to make his most powerful minions like abominations and knights, but he had these fish heads that could endlessly weak risen. There's even an event that deals with them, so they are not merely a non-canon 'device' to spawn endless waves of enemies, they are actually a thing. Nothing can be made out nothing, and a risen thrawll or a brute is too complex to be made just like that. Which means there was some magic replicating minions inside. > > If that magic came from Zhaitan, that could be the 'shadow' part. That would mean that shadow magic can also make 'shadows', replicas of an original. And Mordremoth's version of that would be the endless replicas he could make from people and corpses trapped in blighting pods. > > > > So that's a few things shadow/dark magic seems to be involved with: > > > > * Veiling in shadows. That can make things hard to see, or completely unseen, and even protect. > > * Going past defenses, like a shadow. How do you defend against the darkness? > > * Taking things away from others. Even abstract untouchable things like life and boons. > > * Making copies of creatures, like bringing to life shadows people cast. > > > > > > We should just be lucky Zhaitan never hit us with a Rasengan, I guess. > Perilisk weighs in with the humour comment ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesacon.8735 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > We have to start with instances of known "shadow" magic. > > > > That in GW1 usually meant skills and attacks with shadow or dark types of damage, and assassin's shadow arts. > > In GW2 we have "Shadow Arts" in thieves, and darkness fields. > > > > Shadow damage was a form of magical damage that ignored armor, while dark damage was not physical or elemental so specific armor bonuses did nothing against it, but it did not ignore armor. > > Skills with shadow damage went past defenses and stole health. > > Darkness fields trigger blindness and life steal, and the "Shadow Arts" line is about being sneaky. > > > > > > That tells us that shadow/dark magics are about keeping the enemy from perceiving things and taking things away from them. > > > > Zhaitan did have a few deceptive minions, mesmers and things lurking in the shadows, but that could just be the powers they had in life. > > > > Then we had the new powers Mordremoth appeared to have after getting a jolt of leyline magic. > > Mefore the breachmaker, his minions were mostly makeshift mockeries, but after we visit the heart of maguuma, Mordremoth had two new tricks: > > > > * He could make minions out of coprses. > > * He could replicate minions endlessly. > > > > And he have actually seen Zhaitan replicating minions endlessly. He needed corpses to make his most powerful minions like abominations and knights, but he had these fish heads that could endlessly weak risen. There's even an event that deals with them, so they are not merely a non-canon 'device' to spawn endless waves of enemies, they are actually a thing. Nothing can be made out nothing, and a risen thrawll or a brute is too complex to be made just like that. Which means there was some magic replicating minions inside. > > If that magic came from Zhaitan, that could be the 'shadow' part. That would mean that shadow magic can also make 'shadows', replicas of an original. And Mordremoth's version of that would be the endless replicas he could make from people and corpses trapped in blighting pods. > > > > So that's a few things shadow/dark magic seems to be involved with: > > > > * Veiling in shadows. That can make things hard to see, or completely unseen, and even protect. > > * Going past defenses, like a shadow. How do you defend against the darkness? > > * Taking things away from others. Even abstract untouchable things like life and boons. > > * Making copies of creatures, like bringing to life shadows people cast. > > > > You bring a number of good points. I do want to say that I think we have seen Mordremoth using Shadow Magic, during his final battle scenario as well as with the Shadow of the Dragon in LWS2. > > When Andrew Gray answered that the other dragon’s could not use corpses before Zhaitan’s death, he advised that Mordremoth had the ability to make clones then, except they had to be living beings. Mordremoth also appears to have the ability to create customs Mordrem as well for very specific purposes, The Vinetooth to combat the exalted for example, however I believe this might be a slower process and a drain on his resources. The Blighting trees are faster minion production factories. I would think that Mordremoth making multiple clones is his natural ability, and perhaps reserved Shadow Magic for special instances, like imbuing the Shadow of the Dragon. > > What is strange though we don’t see Primordus or Kralkatorrik use Shadow Magic. It appears Kralkatorrik obtained the death and mind spheres, while Primordus obtained death and plant. Jormag also appears to have obtained death and plant too, however we only have the one minion to based that off of. > > Where is the shadow magic sphere? Have we received any confirmation on what Vinetooth Faolin is? She died shortly before that, so you could argue Mordremoth turned her into a sort of "Risen" Vinetooth. Shadow of the Dragon appears during the Sylvari character creation quest, long before we kill Zhaitan. It _does_ appear in the Dream, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"MithranArkanere.8957" said: > > > We have to start with instances of known "shadow" magic. > > > > > > That in GW1 usually meant skills and attacks with shadow or dark types of damage, and assassin's shadow arts. > > > In GW2 we have "Shadow Arts" in thieves, and darkness fields. > > > > > > Shadow damage was a form of magical damage that ignored armor, while dark damage was not physical or elemental so specific armor bonuses did nothing against it, but it did not ignore armor. > > > Skills with shadow damage went past defenses and stole health. > > > Darkness fields trigger blindness and life steal, and the "Shadow Arts" line is about being sneaky. > > > > > > > > > That tells us that shadow/dark magics are about keeping the enemy from perceiving things and taking things away from them. > > > > > > Zhaitan did have a few deceptive minions, mesmers and things lurking in the shadows, but that could just be the powers they had in life. > > > > > > Then we had the new powers Mordremoth appeared to have after getting a jolt of leyline magic. > > > Mefore the breachmaker, his minions were mostly makeshift mockeries, but after we visit the heart of maguuma, Mordremoth had two new tricks: > > > > > > * He could make minions out of coprses. > > > * He could replicate minions endlessly. > > > > > > And he have actually seen Zhaitan replicating minions endlessly. He needed corpses to make his most powerful minions like abominations and knights, but he had these fish heads that could endlessly weak risen. There's even an event that deals with them, so they are not merely a non-canon 'device' to spawn endless waves of enemies, they are actually a thing. Nothing can be made out nothing, and a risen thrawll or a brute is too complex to be made just like that. Which means there was some magic replicating minions inside. > > > If that magic came from Zhaitan, that could be the 'shadow' part. That would mean that shadow magic can also make 'shadows', replicas of an original. And Mordremoth's version of that would be the endless replicas he could make from people and corpses trapped in blighting pods. > > > > > > So that's a few things shadow/dark magic seems to be involved with: > > > > > > * Veiling in shadows. That can make things hard to see, or completely unseen, and even protect. > > > * Going past defenses, like a shadow. How do you defend against the darkness? > > > * Taking things away from others. Even abstract untouchable things like life and boons. > > > * Making copies of creatures, like bringing to life shadows people cast. > > > > > > > You bring a number of good points. I do want to say that I think we have seen Mordremoth using Shadow Magic, during his final battle scenario as well as with the Shadow of the Dragon in LWS2. > > > > When Andrew Gray answered that the other dragon’s could not use corpses before Zhaitan’s death, he advised that Mordremoth had the ability to make clones then, except they had to be living beings. Mordremoth also appears to have the ability to create customs Mordrem as well for very specific purposes, The Vinetooth to combat the exalted for example, however I believe this might be a slower process and a drain on his resources. The Blighting trees are faster minion production factories. I would think that Mordremoth making multiple clones is his natural ability, and perhaps reserved Shadow Magic for special instances, like imbuing the Shadow of the Dragon. > > > > What is strange though we don’t see Primordus or Kralkatorrik use Shadow Magic. It appears Kralkatorrik obtained the death and mind spheres, while Primordus obtained death and plant. Jormag also appears to have obtained death and plant too, however we only have the one minion to based that off of. > > > > Where is the shadow magic sphere? > > Have we received any confirmation on what Vinetooth Faolin is? She died shortly before that, so you could argue Mordremoth turned her into a sort of "Risen" Vinetooth. > > Shadow of the Dragon appears during the Sylvari character creation quest, long before we kill Zhaitan. It _does_ appear in the Dream, though. The thought has occurred to me after the Vinetooth stuck it’s tail into her back, which killed Eir and the same happened to one of the aspect masters during Tangled Paths. Did Mordremoth throw her into a Blighting pod like Diarmid, maybe? As for Shadow of the Dragon, in the Sylvari dream you battle it as the first big boss. You then fight it again in episode 4 of Season 2. The Shadow of the Dragon only uses these shadow abilities, once you fight it again episode 8 and only episode 8, which chronologically occurs after Zhaitan’s death. So I suspose that after the Shadow of the Dragon retreated, Mordremoth imbued it with shadow magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > Have we received any confirmation on what Vinetooth Faolin is? She died shortly before that, so you could argue Mordremoth turned her into a sort of "Risen" Vinetooth. > > Shadow of the Dragon appears during the Sylvari character creation quest, long before we kill Zhaitan. It _does_ appear in the Dream, though. There was a dev, forgot who but I *think* during an AMA on reddit, that stated that Faolain didn't die from the two stabs in the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > Have we received any confirmation on what Vinetooth Faolin is? She died shortly before that, so you could argue Mordremoth turned her into a sort of "Risen" Vinetooth. > > > > Shadow of the Dragon appears during the Sylvari character creation quest, long before we kill Zhaitan. It _does_ appear in the Dream, though. > > There was a dev, forgot who but I *think* during an AMA on reddit, that stated that Faolain didn't die from the two stabs in the back. Would kind of make more sense if she was killed then thrown into a Blighting Pod, figuring how quick her transformation physically and personality had occurred, but if that’s what the devs said, who am I to argue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted February 25, 2019 Share Posted February 25, 2019 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Hesacon.8735" said: > > > Have we received any confirmation on what Vinetooth Faolin is? She died shortly before that, so you could argue Mordremoth turned her into a sort of "Risen" Vinetooth. > > > > > > Shadow of the Dragon appears during the Sylvari character creation quest, long before we kill Zhaitan. It _does_ appear in the Dream, though. > > > > There was a dev, forgot who but I *think* during an AMA on reddit, that stated that Faolain didn't die from the two stabs in the back. > > Would kind of make more sense if she was killed then thrown into a Blighting Pod, figuring how quick her transformation physically and personality had occurred, but if that’s what the devs said, who am I to argue. Faolain and many nightmare court were able to resist Mordremoth's call, but being weakened after Eir's instant revenge probably made things easier. We can't see exactly where the thorn landed on Faolain's back, but since she tried to use her right hand to remove it, it was not on her left side, and when we see it land, it isn't too far to the right side. That means it was probably more towards the center of the back. The way Faolain fell and could not get up after being struck by the thorn may mean she was hit in her spine, becoming partially paralyzed. It can't be easy to concentrate and silence the voice in your head when you are troubled with a spike in your back paralyzing you waist down. Her transformation was likely more similar to those of Mordrem Guard rather than those of blightning and spawning pods. Remember the teaser cinematic with the mordrem guard growing from vines? That shows a mordrem guard being replicated, but also the process of vines turning into mordrem flesh. The vinetooth body could have grown around her in a similar way without her having to die first, or just out of her own body while stuck in a pod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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