Damage Meters ruin enjoyment of content

[kharmin.7683]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.

While I'm sure that it CAN be used for every playstyle, my understanding is (particularly in raids) that it is primarily used for max clearspeed which is probably why so many people have issues with it.

 

 

[yann.1946]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > a DPS meter can be used to optimize every playstyle not just max clearspeed.

> While I'm sure that it CAN be used for every playstyle, my understanding is (particularly in raids) that it is primarily used for max clearspeed which is probably why so many people have issues with it.

>

>

 

It's actually the exact opposite in my experience. In pugs it mostly gets used to check if someone is vastly under performing and in non speedclears guilds mostly for the boon uptime feature and friendly dps competitions

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

 

I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

 

1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)

2. minimal movement during combat

3. stay alive

 

I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

 

DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

[Deadvillager.1956]

> @"sokeenoppa.5384" said:

> Its not a dps meter that ruined your Day, it was a player using it. Dps meter is a great tool, some players are just idiots :)

 

Yeah this sounds like the MEPS to me (massive e-peen syndrome). It is commonly misdiagnosed as toxic game mechanics but who are we kidding. Games cant be toxic.

[yann.1946]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

>

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

>

> I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations.

 

It can still help you improve you're build In that situation tho. You might not be interested in that but it still can given the sets off constraints

 

For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

>

> 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)

> 2. minimal movement during combat

> 3. stay alive

>

> I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

>

 

Yes you shouldn't do things you don't enjoy in the game I agree.

 

> DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

 

You're really confusing the meter with the people here.

 

If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.

 

Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?

[Ok I Did It.2854]

Its an underwater fractal, do not worry about it, id honestly say 95%+ players in this game have not geared themselves for underwater.

[Algreg.3629]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

>

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

>

> I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

>

> 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)

> 2. minimal movement during combat

> 3. stay alive

>

> I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

>

> DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

 

that is unfortunate, but by demanding other players should lower their expectations you attempt to force your problem on them. If they are fine to accept your mediocre performance fine, if not, also fine. Also, the build you describe will perform so noticeably badly you would not need ARC to begin with.

[Shivvies.3921]

I love how these things go every single time.

 

"Reverse elitism" - in this instance, saying that "no one has the right to play the way they want because I want to be a part of a group who wants to clear content fast or at least require a certain level of performance even though I WILL NOT perform to their standards" is no different than saying "I will ridicule and kick people who are even slightly underperforming as per my views."

 

These two groups are a considerably small number of people who care about ARC one way or the other.

 

Whereas I'm like "I'll not play a game where I can't see my field performance and my group's field performance."

 

I never ever kicked someone for underperforming. I put a lot of value to performance but it IS a game and socialising is more important. I spent months in progressive clears in other games leading raids and never once singled out people but found ways to help everyone improve by analysing combat data and posting GENERIC comments about situations trying to reach out to people I knew to be underperforming without ever naming names. This helped my raids to grow, enjoy each other's company AND the game without any "numbers drama."

 

And, this would not be possible without damage metres / combat data tools.

[Shivvies.3921]

Let me add, by the way. I always stayed with ONLY inclusive guilds / clans / cabals / factions / pantheons whathaveyou. We had people with varying needs and ceilings. We always worked with them. It is amazing to be able to figure things out with your DEDICATED group. I am a slow person, I can't perform as well as most players out there. But we figure out ways I can improve and synergies for our group to cover for me, for instance.

 

These are ALL only possible with tools to analyse combat data. Otherwise, it is half the fun gone for groups like mine.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

>

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

>

> I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

>

> 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)

> 2. minimal movement during combat

> 3. stay alive

>

> I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

>

> DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

 

On the contrary, DPS meters could be very very useful for you. I agree with everything you said about playstyle - play this game the way you want - however there are different levels/ranks of content for a reason.

 

Nobody is (or should) be using DPS meters in T1, so if because of limitations you cannot execute rotations, etc, and therefore have lower DPS, then you will have no issues doing fractals at that level. If you're trying to do T4s, a DPS meter will tell you whether you can provide competitive DPS numbers in spite of your limitations or not. If the answer is yes, go in to T4 with full confidence that you are pulling your weight. If the answer is no, then you can be honest with yourself and choose to play in a lower tier where DPS numbers aren't as critical and expectations are (or should be) more relaxed.

 

I installed arcDPS recently just because I was curious what was out there, and so far the only salient point I've derived from its use is that I can improve my damage, as I see others hitting significantly higher numbers than me, leading me to ask the question: why? Whether I consider that relevant or even important is a different question, as my DPS is competitive (even though I'm playing a quasi-support build atm) and I'm able to follow boss mechanics and live to the end, which is just as important as pumping out damage.

 

Honestly friends, I've seen pugs much much worse than what I see in GW2. This game is a veritable haven compared to the sewer that is LFG in many of the other MMO's I've played.

 

And @ the OP's comments about Birds: people in my group the other night said almost exactly the same thing. I'm sure ANET will eventually remove that instability, but 'till then, we just have to endure.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Ol Nik.2518" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > DPS meters do help anyone to optimize. unless your running with 5x full support minstrel builds in fracs, you will invest something into offense. no matter how little that something is you can optimize it and DPS meter helps there.

>

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > The dps meter mostly used in gw2 also shows boon uptime etc so it will be usefull for everyone wo wants to optimize their playstyle

>

> I am sorry, but both of you still see it from a min/max point of view. It does not work for those of us who optimise their playstyles for our physical limitations. For example, I play what my son calls 'afk ranged tank summoner' builds. My priorities are exactly in this order:

>

> 1. minimal stress on my hands (mice and keyboards are not very friendly to carpal tunnel), aka 2 buttons combat mode (preferably, no more than one key/button for each hand)

> 2. minimal movement during combat

> 3. stay alive

>

> I will do my best to notify you of my limitations. But I am not going to change the way I play for you. Your frustration, no matter how understandable, is no reason for me to suffer pain or aggravate my condition.

>

> DPS meters are not only useless in this situation, but they can make things worse for everyone. The numbers show that someone is 'underperforming' despite the fact that they are doing their best to last through a physically painful and exhaustive fight.

 

The DPS meter has absolutely nothing to do with the scenario you describe. Good on you for notifying your group regarding your issues, but it's up to the group to decide whether or not they wish to play with you. They should certainly be respectful in making that decision, but if your performance is problematic for the group then you have to go. They don't owe you a carry. So why shouldn't they have tools to measure performance?

[sorudo.9054]

i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.

you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.

another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

 

if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

[Nury.3062]

The DPS meter is an enabler,it enables people to be toxic and even breeds toxicity through the obsession towards min /max than actual content.I am all for DPS meter when it can show only your own dps and not everyone's dps. While not so serious or aggravating I kinda find a 3rd party tool that can check any information about me to be somewhat intruding.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.

> you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.

> another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

>

> if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

 

You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

 

Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

 

Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

> @"Mad As Hell.2168" said:

> Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

>

> I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

>

> I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

>

> Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

>

> Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

>

> As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

>

 

Thank you for bringing up the topic again and thank you for having the guts to speak up.

 

While I do agree with some people that the problem of toxicity is a player created problem, I do believe that the meter promotes the toxicity by giving those people "facts" to reinforce their accusations. Without the meters +- a few thousands are barely noticable and it is not detectable who would be the evil efficiency-defier. In addition I have to mention, that the time you lose with a non-optimal group is in most cases shorter than a pee-break (male). If I am that much in a hurry, I would not turn on the client anyway. But I guess this is not bare figures, it is about principals.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > @"Mad As Hell.2168" said:

> > Damage meters can ruin the enjoyment of playing this game. Limit them to the Raid Practice room.

> >

> > I bought the initial game for myself and three family members. I bought HoT for myself and three family members. I bought PoF for myself and three family members. Not just the base versions either. ($$$)

> >

> > I have played every day since I started 1630 days ago. I've played over 7,000 hours. I have over 27,000 AP without playing PvP (except daily rooms), raids (just a couple of instances a few times with friends), and barely any WvW. I've only done the T4 FO challenge mote because I just pug fractals. I've made three legendaries and with what I have in mat storage and the gold I have I could probably throw together another three with maybe a week to get some of the gating items such as dungeon tokens. I threw together Meteorlogicus on a whim and I IIRC all I had to buy were Storm and the Icy Runestones. (Should have bought a bunch of Gifts of Battle when they were only 500 badges of honor though.) Griffon, Beetle, gold scarf, etc. Don't quite have have the Mist Attunement 1 yet but I only decided to start working on any of the attunements 3 or 4 weeks ago. Just have to grind out about another 20,000 fractal relics. Masteries maxed with plenty of spare points, of course.

> >

> > Today I get someone kitten at me because they don't think I'm doing enough damage in the kitten T4 underwater fractal with my daredevil according to his kitten damage meter. This wasn't a Raid or PvP where that kitten matters. That's why I don't play those. People get toxic. This wasn't even a challenge mote. This was just the kitten already-unenjoyable die-as-a-dolphin shoot-at-the-spinning-jelly underwater fractal that needs to be thrown away.

> >

> > Along with the Birds instability, this has me wondering why am I wasting so much time in this game? Think how much time I would have if I just quit playing this game, and then I wouldn't have to listen to some kitten know-it-all min/maxer kitten about my speargun against the jellyfish either. I could go play any of the other dozen triple-A games I have in my Steam and other accounts.

> >

> > As a bonus, I wouldn't have to waste so much money when the next expansion comes out.

> >

>

> Thank you for bringing up the topic again and thank you for having the guts to speak up.

>

> While I do agree with some people that the problem of toxicity is a player created problem, I do believe that the meter promotes the toxicity by giving those people "facts" to reinforce their accusations. Without the meters +- a few thousands are barely noticable and it is not detectable who would be the evil efficiency-defier. In addition I have to mention, that the time you lose with a non-optimal group is in most cases shorter than a pee-break (male). If I am that much in a hurry, I would not turn on the client anyway. But I guess this is not bare figures, it is about principals.

>

 

There are very few players who are going to make a stink about a few thousand DPS that nobody in the group is missing. What else do you call those players but "toxic"? And how would those players behave if they didn't have a DPS meter? You guessed it: Toxic! But now instead of excluding people on the basis of performance, they'll exclude people for things like not having X achievement, not having enough of Y item that proves you've done the content 40 million times, or just because you play Z class. Or even worse, for perceived performance issues (e.g. you stood in the fire once during a wipe - kicked!).

 

If you're somehow managing to encounter these players frequently, I'm guessing it's because you're more than "a few thousand" DPS short and you make no effort to avoid groups that are expecting a certain level of performance. While I don't support the disrespectful way some players choose to interact with others based upon performance in a video game, people should also take responsibility for their part in it. If you aren't up to standard, it might be a good idea to tell people that up front when you join groups for high end content (i.e. t4 fractals, CMs, raids, speed runs). If you don't, you shouldn't be surprised when you keep encountering toxic behavior (justified or not).

[sorudo.9054]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.

> > you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.

> > another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

> >

> > if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

>

> You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

>

> Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

>

> Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

 

the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good.

 

it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.

that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

[Shivvies.3921]

I don't understand how it is any better feeling entitled to keep people from clearing content for hours on end?

 

That excludes me. I dislike not knowing what's keeping us back. How is that any better?

[Linken.6345]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.

> > > you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.

> > > another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

> > >

> > > if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

> >

> > You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

> >

> > Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

> >

> > Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

>

> the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good.

>

> it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.

> that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

 

Then dont join the people that expect performance, join group that say newbies ok, all welcome or chilled run etc.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.

> > > > you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.

> > > > another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

> > > >

> > > > if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

> > >

> > > You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

> > >

> > > Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

> > >

> > > Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

> >

> > the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good.

> >

> > it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.

> > that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

>

> Then dont join the people that expect performance, join group that say newbies ok, all welcome or chilled run etc.

 

and what about the groups i start, get ppl in and get kicked because i am not what they want?

oh, forgot about that toxicity didn't you....

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > > > > i rather survive longer then 2 seconds, DPS is great and all but if everyone needs max DPS it's always gonna be a glass cannon group no matter what you try.

> > > > > you can say "but the boss is dead faster with max DPS" but when the boss can survive the first burst of damage it's a wipe.

> > > > > another problem we have here is that DPS meters doesn't do anything more then exclude newer players, ppl expect max DPS and if you don't have that you will never ever play said content.

> > > > >

> > > > > if you need more reasons why DPS meters are horrible, i suggest looking at all the other threats.

> > > >

> > > > You are not entitled to be in any group that doesn't want you. That's really all there is to it.

> > > >

> > > > Here's a good policy for you: All players should seek to play with other players who are compatible with their play style and make their expectations clear from the outset to avoid issues.

> > > >

> > > > Attempting to hide the fact that you are not meeting the group's expectations is of no benefit to anyone and, in fact, causes more harm than good (e.g. groups refusing to accept certain classes, etc.).

> > >

> > > the fact that a DPS meter excludes players does more harm than good.

> > >

> > > it's a frikin game, if ppl take it so seriously that they pretty much kick ppl out of their own enjoyment is a huge problem.

> > > that is, in fact, the bigger problem here.

> >

> > Then dont join the people that expect performance, join group that say newbies ok, all welcome or chilled run etc.

>

> and what about the groups i start, get ppl in and get kicked because i am not what they want?

> oh, forgot about that toxicity didn't you....

 

You know best what you are capable of. If you're frequently getting kicked then maybe you're trying to get into the wrong content?

 

I was messing around in T2 on an alt the other day, and a Ranger came in using a Longbow. Nothing was said, but on the boss fight where most were putting out 4-5k DPS, he dished out around 900 DPS. Now again that's T2, but had this guy grabbed 150AR and walked into a T4, you can bet he would have been kicked, and rightly so.

 

There is no defending toxic behaviour, but not everyone who gets booted from a party is the fault of toxicity.

 

It's right up there with speed limits: if we could trust everyone to drive sensibly, there would be no need...but society doesn't work that way, and so we cater to the lowest common denominator. In GW2 speak, there are plenty of people who think they should get the rewards of T4 dailies, but require other people to do the heavy lifting in order to do so. While that shouldn't be a justification for using a DPS meter, it is one of the benefits of doing so; and players like me, who stayed in T2 and T3 for months practicing until I felt confident I could perform in T4, wholeheartedly approve of it.

[Daddicus.6128]

I shouldn't even get started, because this subject really frosts me. But, OP, you are absolutely correct. Damage meters used by your teammates against you should be banned. I don't care if people use their damage meter to improve THEIR game, but stay away from me.

 

In fact, in fractals, it would be the height of idiocy to use a damage meter against my character. My character specializes in breaking breakbars, removing boons, and staying alive. How can a damage meter ever see something like that? He doesn't do that much raw damage, but he digs the mass grave for the other party members to bury our enemies in.

 

The same issue applies to healers and support characters. Only a complete idiot would use one against such characters. They're going to keep you alive, and I'm going to rescue you if they fail, and keep the boss from issuing a coup de grace.

 

I'm OK if a friend tells me about my build being sub-par, IF (and ONLY if) the intent is to help me get better. But, if it's to chide me for not delivering as much damage as I "should", I just chuckle to myself. And block him, if he keeps it up.

[gonzi.7605]

That's why i'm avoiding all LFG "chrono only", "druid only", "2057947 KP only", or "BS, druid, chrono, fb", even if i play class that "they need". People get something with head - first of all, they wait MUCH longer than it takes for me to do that fractal, second - who the heck are you to tell everyone how they have to play? And last one - game was design to do anything in pretty any team composition. And guess what - it works that way. 100 CM done at first try with berserker, berserker, weaver, soulbeast, deadeye It was pretty fast, no problems, no wait. And everyone play how they want. But hey, it wasn't "speed run" so we do it slower for whole 40 seconds. But if we add 6-8 wipes before boss in "speed run" then we still was better :pensive: .

 

And if someone start in my group with "omg, how you deal only 300k dps for whole boss fight, noob, kick him" - i dont ask, just kick. Even if i deal most dmg in team, just somehow i get out of combat for split second, then back so it reset. Clever person might just add 2+ 2 and wonder where is rest of boss hp :P.

 

But tool is just a tool. Its nice for YOURSELF to improve rotation or build, but it shouldn't be used to pointed other people. Once i was accused of not doing enought dps on raid... when i have to do mechanics bcs our healer died (it was last 20% so better try finish it than wipe) and still deal more dps than 2 others. What i did? Said to squad "sorry people, but i dont know how such a dumb person can lead your static raid group" and i just report him and leave without any comment. Two mintutes later few people from that squad tell me that they are sorry, that he got a bad day, that dead healer notice what i did, that they thanks me etc and that they wanted me for another raid. For real? His excuse is "bad day" ? So i answer "im sorry for you folks, now i have bad day too. And guess what - i dont need another one, so i have to reject your offer".

 

People are such a genetic mistake... I know, emotions and all that stuff. But before i accuse someone i try to get as much intel as possible to be hell sure my point. Not just check dps meter "he is zero, he do nothing" and start to blame. And the most stupid argue is when everything goes great but you still have to blame "but you should have 10k dmg more". As far as it's about me - im fine with almost everything. As long as we can do it in resonable time without too much wipes. And thats why i dont like people in full berserker - sure, you deal 1k dps more... but you are one-shoted by everything. One mistake - you are dead. And sorry, but i dont trust people that they are such a "pro" and can dodge every single attack :P

[Ol Nik.2518]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> You're really confusing the meter with the people here.

As I said in the very beginning, DPS meters on their own aren't to blame. But I agree with @"Nury.3062" that DPS meters often enable toxicity. And, as we can see in many comments here, they indeed promote playstyles focused on min/max and optimisation.

> If you're playing with people who care about efficiency they would still call you out.

It's no problem. I am not forcing anyone to play with me. If I am asked to leave I will gladly do so. But I would prefer people to do it in a civil manner and without too much drama.

> Why are you playing something that hurt you tho?

It does not hurt too much if I do it the right way. Not to mention that I enjoy the game and it gives me an additional 'excuse' to spend time with my teenage son :)

 

@"AliamRationem.5172", @"Algreg.3629"

I believe you are confusing 'DPS meters promote a certain type of playstyle' with 'I demand to include me in your group'. I cannot talk for everybody, but I do not want to be a part of a speed-clearing or any group focused solely on DPS. If there was a misunderstanding in the beginning and I ended up in one of those groups, I would ask if it were okay for me to leave. Those groups are way too fast. It is no fun for them or for me to team up.

I just wish that there were more builds, guides, and people focused on more casual and forgiving playstyles. I also believe that DPS is not the only means to an end. In my experience, there is always a way to do things slowly but surely.

 

@"Turkeyspit.3965"

I wonder if DPS is truly that critical. Something tells me that high damage is important only if you want to kill things fast. But if time is of no concern there can be other options. I do not like fractals, so I cannot be sure about their mechanics. However, I somehow managed to go through the entire living story, all HoT and PoF HPs solo. With some of my characters I am able to solo many champions both in core and expansion regions. And these specific characters are optimised for my playstyle: Slow, static, and very relaxed.

_________________________________________

 

**TL;DR. I am not calling for complete elimination of DPS meters. But I do believe that over-reliance on them promotes intolerance, limits build and playstyle choices, and in general is detrimental for community. One should never be judged based on their DPS. This is just a game.**

[Shivvies.3921]

I honestly believe all games should have incorporated combat replay, dps meter and boon / condi uptime information.

 

I never kicked someone for underperforming. I would kick someone who thinks they are entitled to THEIR OWN THING when it is a group activity without thinking twice about it.

 

Cheers...