Upcoming Thief Changes - Discussion Topic

[DemonSeed.3528]

Well I do hope so, or else I'll be running around with rifle/pistol or sbow/pistol doing stupid testing. If there is no error, then it's plain stupid because no one runs around with a single pistol (unless you're me doing a gimmick build). It's a 'pretend' buff in other words - a so called buff in something no one would ever use. Even someone starting out gets something to put in offhand very quickly. Maybe it's something fancy to put in as a filler for tooltip. Reminds me, are they going to do something similar with dagger too with no offhand?

[Profanity.6829]

Why is everybody on about the P/D change and that they will only play with a P/-.... THats not what i make of the changes.

 

• Shadow Strike: This skill now grants access to Repeater for 4 seconds upon landing a successful melee hit.

• Repeater: For builds that use a pistol in their main hand with no off-hand weapon, the damage of this skill has been increased by 20%. Striking a foe with this skill now applies 4 seconds of bleeding per hit.

 

As I read it:

Shadow Strike will work as S/D: Flanking Strike --> Larcenous Strike. One activates the other. You get a hit of with Shadow Strike? You port back and are able to use the follow-up Repeater ability. Just dont know if this then does 20% more damge and bleeds. Would be stupid if it didn't....

 

But please tell me if im wrong...

 

(but even if the buff would work like this: for PvP we are to reliant on bleeds. One auto triggered cleanse ability and your 20+ bleed stacks are gone. If they want condi-thief to work in PvP we need a broader coverage of different condi's like mesmer/scourge have.)

 

[Blind.4162]

So let's see if I get this right. Deadeye will lose stealth but be allowed to keep all it's vulnerabilities, the lowest hp pool in med armour and not have any increase in the already abysmal healing. But hey there's a silver lining, the increase to the pistol/dagger build for which soooo many deadeyes are known for. I'm really not sure why i keep holding onto that sliver of hope that someone on the team that brought us the ground breaking news that an arrow travels farther, faster then any bullet, could see that deadeye is all about stealth and patience. If all anet is going to do is nerf the thief to oblivion, then why even put it into the game to begin with. I already know what's going to happen when I apply the "update", control panel, programs and features, guild wars 2, uninstall.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Blind.4162" said:

> So let's see if I get this right. Deadeye will lose stealth but be allowed to keep all it's vulnerabilities, the lowest hp pool in med armour and not have any increase in the already abysmal healing. But hey there's a silver lining, the increase to the pistol/dagger build for which soooo many deadeyes are known for. I'm really not sure why i keep holding onto that sliver of hope that someone on the team that brought us the ground breaking news that an arrow travels farther, faster then any bullet, could see that deadeye is all about stealth and patience. If all anet is going to do is nerf the thief to oblivion, then why even put it into the game to begin with. I already know what's going to happen when I apply the "update", control panel, programs and features, guild wars 2, uninstall.

 

Oh cry us a river. What vulnerabilitys? You still have it easy compared to core/daredevil mainly because you are ""RANGED"". De is so simple to play.

[Tails.9372]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Oh cry us a river. What vulnerabilitys? **You still have it easy** compared to core/daredevil mainly **because you are ""RANGED""**. De is so simple to play.

 

Well then, name one even mildly successful sPvP / WvW player who still mains a P/P build. The notion that "ranged" has it easy is utterly ridiculous given how much projectile denial there is.

[Blind.4162]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Blind.4162" said:

> > So let's see if I get this right. Deadeye will lose stealth but be allowed to keep all it's vulnerabilities, the lowest hp pool in med armour and not have any increase in the already abysmal healing. But hey there's a silver lining, the increase to the pistol/dagger build for which soooo many deadeyes are known for. I'm really not sure why i keep holding onto that sliver of hope that someone on the team that brought us the ground breaking news that an arrow travels farther, faster then any bullet, could see that deadeye is all about stealth and patience. If all anet is going to do is nerf the thief to oblivion, then why even put it into the game to begin with. I already know what's going to happen when I apply the "update", control panel, programs and features, guild wars 2, uninstall.

>

> Oh cry us a river. What vulnerabilitys? You still have it easy compared to core/daredevil mainly because you are ""RANGED"". De is so simple to play.

 

*face palm* In case you aren't aware of this fact, deadeye is a THIEF profession. Just because deadeye is ""RANGED"" doesn't mean they're immune to leaps, teleports, immobs, reveals, channeled skills nor ranged weapons. Here's another tip for you, don't stand in the red circles.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Oh cry us a river. What vulnerabilitys? **You still have it easy** compared to core/daredevil mainly **because you are ""RANGED""**. De is so simple to play.

>

> Well then, name one even mildly successful sPvP / WvW player who still mains a P/P build. The notion that "ranged" has it easy is utterly ridiculous given how much projectile denial there is.

 

There was a person in the first place? No 1 because p/p is a meme weapon set that spams #3, sometimes with venoms. It has nothing to go for apart from open world pve

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Blind.4162" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"Blind.4162" said:

> > > So let's see if I get this right. Deadeye will lose stealth but be allowed to keep all it's vulnerabilities, the lowest hp pool in med armour and not have any increase in the already abysmal healing. But hey there's a silver lining, the increase to the pistol/dagger build for which soooo many deadeyes are known for. I'm really not sure why i keep holding onto that sliver of hope that someone on the team that brought us the ground breaking news that an arrow travels farther, faster then any bullet, could see that deadeye is all about stealth and patience. If all anet is going to do is nerf the thief to oblivion, then why even put it into the game to begin with. I already know what's going to happen when I apply the "update", control panel, programs and features, guild wars 2, uninstall.

> >

> > Oh cry us a river. What vulnerabilitys? You still have it easy compared to core/daredevil mainly because you are ""RANGED"". De is so simple to play.

>

> *face palm* In case you aren't aware of this fact, deadeye is a THIEF profession. Just because deadeye is ""RANGED"" doesn't mean they're immune to leaps, teleports, immobs, reveals, channeled skills nor ranged weapons. Here's another tip for you, don't stand in the red circles.

 

I am well aware, you also have the advantage of being RANGED which gives you a better field of view what you're fighting and better chance to react to incoming leaps, not to mention de is stealth heavy.

[Fade.5904]

• Unhindered Combatant: The duration of exhaustion that this trait applies when dodging is now 2 seconds if crippled is present, 3 seconds if chilled is present, and 4 seconds if immobilized is present. Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

 

Wonder how this will interact with 'Don't Stop'

[kash.9213]

> @"Blind.4162" said:

> So let's see if I get this right. Deadeye will lose stealth but be allowed to keep all it's vulnerabilities, the lowest hp pool in med armour and not have any increase in the already abysmal healing. But hey there's a silver lining, the increase to the pistol/dagger build for which soooo many deadeyes are known for. I'm really not sure why i keep holding onto that sliver of hope that someone on the team that brought us the ground breaking news that an arrow travels farther, faster then any bullet, could see that deadeye is all about stealth and patience. If all anet is going to do is nerf the thief to oblivion, then why even put it into the game to begin with. I already know what's going to happen when I apply the "update", control panel, programs and features, guild wars 2, uninstall.

 

Not only is that less extra run speed from SA but less Damage Reduction as well. That might make it tough to rescue people with fast rez or fill up stealth utility or something.

[Turk.5460]

Why are people talking about the repeater change as if they are expecting you to play with no offhand weapon...That is not even remotely close to the realm of why the change was made. It was made as a ranged flip-over attack to the P/D 3 skill. Discuss the impact of P/D, not some mythical "no-offhand" build that is irrelevant to this conversation.

[DragonSlayer.1087]

Buff Staff 2 and 3.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> Why are people talking about the repeater change as if they are expecting you to play with no offhand weapon...That is not even remotely close to the realm of why the change was made. It was made as a ranged flip-over attack to the P/D 3 skill. Discuss the impact of P/D, not some mythical "no-offhand" build that is irrelevant to this conversation.

 

I think people are hoping this buff will be applied to Repeater universally because no one uses a no offhand build.

 

I think it’s a strange to buff one and not the other given that Repeater is a weaker Sneak Attack with lower base damage and power contribution.

 

As I said before I’m reserving judgment until I can play with it in game. But my initial concerns are:

* Damage may be too low

* Initiative cost may be too high for a single use flip skill

* Lockout time from Shadowstrike may be too high.

* If the skills are in fact different they should be named separately.

 

My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

* Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)

* Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)

* Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)

* Range: 900 (no change)

* Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> Why are people talking about the repeater change as if they are expecting you to play with no offhand weapon...That is not even remotely close to the realm of why the change was made. It was made as a ranged flip-over attack to the P/D 3 skill. Discuss the impact of P/D, not some mythical "no-offhand" build that is irrelevant to this conversation.

 

I don't think it's that - I think everyone understood the change was for repeater being triggered by melee offhand to turn it into some kind of dual skill. People were just commenting that the no offhand bonus of 20% is just kind of silly.

[Turk.5460]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > Why are people talking about the repeater change as if they are expecting you to play with no offhand weapon...That is not even remotely close to the realm of why the change was made. It was made as a ranged flip-over attack to the P/D 3 skill. Discuss the impact of P/D, not some mythical "no-offhand" build that is irrelevant to this conversation.

>

> I don't think it's that - I think everyone understood the change was for repeater being triggered by melee offhand to turn it into some kind of dual skill. People were just commenting that the no offhand bonus of 20% is just kind of silly.

 

That may be why they're complaining, but I doubt that is actually the change. I read the patch notes in this way:

 

• Repeater: **[in case you forgot, this is a skill]** For builds that use a pistol in their main hand with no off-hand weapon **[We're reminding you that this skill exists because it is now going to be a part of P/D]**, the damage of this skill has been increased by 20%. Striking a foe with this skill now applies 4 seconds of bleeding per hit.

 

I'm confident that this is just a poor wording choice, but I understand there is a possibility that it is not.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Profanity.6829" said:

> Why is everybody on about the P/D change and that they will only play with a P/-.... THats not what i make of the changes.

>

> • Shadow Strike: This skill now grants access to Repeater for 4 seconds upon landing a successful melee hit.

> • Repeater: For builds that use a pistol in their main hand with no off-hand weapon, the damage of this skill has been increased by 20%. Striking a foe with this skill now applies 4 seconds of bleeding per hit.

>

> As I read it:

> Shadow Strike will work as S/D: Flanking Strike --> Larcenous Strike. One activates the other. You get a hit of with Shadow Strike? You port back and are able to use the follow-up Repeater ability. Just dont know if this then does 20% more damge and bleeds. Would be stupid if it didn't....

>

> But please tell me if im wrong...

>

 

lol, people read it wrong. I read it the same way you did and I think it's a good thing for P/D. They're both named "Repeater" so they both are one and the same. Otherwise, they would rename one of them. To make is even clearer, whether you have an off-hand or not, Piston MH skill #3 Repeater will do the same exact thing, deal damage and apply bleed per hit.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Ok, I think rereading it over I am kind of getting what the others are saying. Repeater itself got a 20% buff so whatever triggers repeater whether they have an offhand or not gets that same bonus as it is technically triggering the 'no offhand' repeater. Their wording is confusing as usual.

[TwiceDead.1963]

Hm, well this could be interesting, but I wonder if Repeater is going to be more of a detriment than a boon depending on how fast you "Unload" the rounds. The same reason Unload thieves drop like flies could end up being the same reason P/D thieves drop in the future, you simply have to commit for too long which leaves you very vulnerable.

 

Gonna enjoy figuring out how it plays...

[DemonSeed.3528]

Wonder how much ini it uses as well

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> Wonder how much ini it uses as well

 

Good point. Repeater costs 5 and Shadow Strike only cost 4. If the total cost of Shadow Strike is greater than 4, then they just effectively killed P/D instead of boosting it.

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > Wonder how much ini it uses as well

>

> Good point. Repeater costs 5 and Shadow Strike only cost 4. If the total cost of Shadow Strike is greater than 4, then they just effectively killed P/D instead of boosting it.

 

*sigh*

 

Like very patch, thieves get a full plate of Nerfs desguised as Buffs.

 

Then again, Shadow Strike was never spammed like S/D#3 does.

Didn't played that much P/D back in the days it was good. I don't know the in's and out's of the build.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > Why are people talking about the repeater change as if they are expecting you to play with no offhand weapon...That is not even remotely close to the realm of why the change was made. It was made as a ranged flip-over attack to the P/D 3 skill. Discuss the impact of P/D, not some mythical "no-offhand" build that is irrelevant to this conversation.

>

> I think people are hoping this buff will be applied to Repeater universally because no one uses a no offhand build.

>

> I think it’s a strange to buff one and not the other given that Repeater is a weaker Sneak Attack with lower base damage and power contribution.

>

> As I said before I’m reserving judgment until I can play with it in game. But my initial concerns are:

> * Damage may be too low

> * Initiative cost may be too high for a single use flip skill

> * Lockout time from Shadowstrike may be too high.

> * If the skills are in fact different they should be named separately.

>

> My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

> * Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)

> * Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)

> * Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)

> * Range: 900 (no change)

> * Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

 

Perhaps we all read the skill wrong but discounting the no weapon off hand version and looking only at p/d from how I read it.

 

The skill will apply 1 bleed stack per hit in addittion to the normal damage.

 

Assume that the case in a Core build p/d condition. DA/SA/TR I will ignore power damage just look at Conditions.

 

Port to enemy with stealth applying poison (3) and weakness from DA Apply Confusion from BA (6 stacks) in trickery. Sneak attack apply 5 bleed. Shadowstrike away apply 4 torment. Use repeater from range for 5 stacks bleed. Total INI cost if things stay as they are 9 INI. That rotation just threw on 3 poison , 6 confusion. weakness, 4 torment and 10 bleed for 9 ini which seems reasonable. Now as to how long shadowstrike locked out , I find once you shadowstrike away it very rare to have to use it again immediately unless the opponent does an instant port to. That said a 2 or 3 second window would seem reasonable before it falls off. I will have to try at 4 and see how it works. The MAJOR concern is the 1.75 seconds on the Repeater channel.

 

As to anothers suggestion that the total INI cost of Shadowstrike followed up by Repeater kills the spec I do not see it. One rarely spammed shadowstrike as the initial attack can not be used at range anyways. In other words to get that first attack off is the same cost it always was. Now if you at range Shadowstrike now becomes a usable skill with added INI. If you do not want to burn that INI don't use it and use the skill you would have used before the change. This is where the fall of time becomes important and may have to be tweaked. When I was fighting and ported away via shadowstrike there would be a few seconds before the enemy re-engaged to melee wherein I would be able to use the skill again. That 4 seconds MIGHT be too high.

 

 

[mes.4607]

Will S/D still be meta for pvp? Or will something replace it?

 

Speculate away for me :)

[saerni.2584]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > Why are people talking about the repeater change as if they are expecting you to play with no offhand weapon...That is not even remotely close to the realm of why the change was made. It was made as a ranged flip-over attack to the P/D 3 skill. Discuss the impact of P/D, not some mythical "no-offhand" build that is irrelevant to this conversation.

> >

> > I think people are hoping this buff will be applied to Repeater universally because no one uses a no offhand build.

> >

> > I think it’s a strange to buff one and not the other given that Repeater is a weaker Sneak Attack with lower base damage and power contribution.

> >

> > As I said before I’m reserving judgment until I can play with it in game. But my initial concerns are:

> > * Damage may be too low

> > * Initiative cost may be too high for a single use flip skill

> > * Lockout time from Shadowstrike may be too high.

> > * If the skills are in fact different they should be named separately.

> >

> > My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

> > * Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)

> > * Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)

> > * Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)

> > * Range: 900 (no change)

> > * Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

>

> Perhaps we all read the skill wrong but discounting the no weapon off hand version and looking only at p/d from how I read it.

>

> The skill will apply 1 bleed stack per hit in addittion to the normal damage.

>

> Assume that the case in a Core build p/d condition. DA/SA/TR I will ignore power damage just look at Conditions.

>

> Port to enemy with stealth applying poison (3) and weakness from DA Apply Confusion from BA (6 stacks) in trickery. Sneak attack apply 5 bleed. Shadowstrike away apply 4 torment. Use repeater from range for 5 stacks bleed. Total INI cost if things stay as they are 9 INI. That rotation just threw on 3 poison , 6 confusion. weakness, 4 torment and 10 bleed for 9 ini which seems reasonable. Now as to how long shadowstrike locked out , I find once you shadowstrike away it very rare to have to use it again immediately unless the opponent does an instant port to. That said a 2 or 3 second window would seem reasonable before it falls off. I will have to try at 4 and see how it works. The MAJOR concern is the 1.75 seconds on the Repeater channel.

>

> As to anothers suggestion that the total INI cost of Shadowstrike followed up by Repeater kills the spec I do not see it. One rarely spammed shadowstrike as the initial attack can not be used at range anyways. In other words to get that first attack off is the same cost it always was. Now if you at range Shadowstrike now becomes a usable skill with added INI. If you do not want to burn that INI don't use it and use the skill you would have used before the change. This is where the fall of time becomes important and may have to be tweaked. When I was fighting and ported away via shadowstrike there would be a few seconds before the enemy re-engaged to melee wherein I would be able to use the skill again. That 4 seconds MIGHT be too high.

>

>

 

Lots of specs have significant gap closing so I’d not limit it to teleports (which often come with blind making Shadowstrike less usable).

 

Also the cost issue to me is the low initiative to damage ratio regardless of where that damage comes from (condi or power). I’m assuming no bleed so the power damage being so much lower than Sneak Attack is concerning to me. Unlike a (Malicious) Backstab or Death’s Judgment or even Unload the damage isn’t too high on Sneak Attack so giving Repeater (as a usable skill) a high initiatve cost seems out of proportion.

 

I always saw Repeater (and similar skills) as an intentionally bad skill to encourage people to equip a second weapon. Repeater was a worse version of Unload in this case.

 

Going into this patch I want to remind the developers to make this an actual damage boost over comparative options per initiative cost. That includes channel time and the flip time as indicated by @"babazhook.6805" and myself. @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" I look forward to discussing the changes after they go live on the 5th, with a separate feedback thread for that purpose.

[Straegen.2938]

Whew those DeadEye nerfs are rough. The Silent Scope change makes running Shadow Arts near mandatory which is a huge DPS cut for many builds. Without SA there is no priming Death's Judgment with Skirmisher's Shot any longer. No more priming Lead Attacks with Death's Retreat either. Nerfs for the Rifle DE were needed though.

 

The rest of it is mostly pointless.