derd.6413 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"anninke.7469" said: > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider.5792 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... > > lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? Kinder suprises (as far as i remember from childhood) always had like, series of specific items, a collection. Maybe 10 different dogs, maybe dragons, you name it. Point is, some children (even adults) maybe like some collections, and possibly want all of the items inside the collection, which you can find inside the egg. However, since its RNG, its not gonna take you 10 eggs to get all 10 dogs(unless you get super lucky), it might take you 15, 25, 50 etc... By this logic, you could count this as gambling, and that kinder surprise is a lootbox, since it holds a random item, and you most likely want a specific item. Oh, and another thing. Kinder Eggs dont have a single collection, they have multiple, hundreds. They come and go, but the thing is, in shops the eggs are mixed. When the eggs get sold, extra are put on top. Now those eggs which are being advertised that they contain "dogs" might also have a collection among them which contain "Barbie girls" or something. Soo now its even more RNG on top if you want a specific item. Edit: The positive side here though is that, these items you can at least trade with others, or purchase directly somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Glider.5792" said: > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > > > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... > > > > lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? > > Kinder suprises (as far as i remember from childhood) always had like, series of specific items, a collection. Maybe 10 different dogs, maybe dragons, you name it. > Point is, some children (even adults) maybe like some collections, and possibly want all of the items inside the collection, which you can find inside the egg. However, since its RNG, its not gonna take you 10 eggs to get all 10 dogs(unless you get super lucky), it might take you 15, 25, 50 etc... > By this logic, you could count this as gambling, and that kinder surprise is a lootbox, since it holds a random item, and you most likely want a specific item. > > Oh, and another thing. Kinder Eggs dont have a single collection, they have multiple, hundreds. They come and go, but the thing is, in shops the eggs are mixed. When the eggs get sold, extra are put on top. Now those eggs which are being advertised that they contain "dogs" might also have a collection among them which contain "Barbie girls" or something. Soo now its even more RNG on top if you want a specific item. i know what kinder surprises are but how are they in anyway comparable to lootboxes besides content is random. if you said a card pack or something i'd understand but kinder surprise? really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glider.5792 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"Glider.5792" said: > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > > > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > > > > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... > > > > > > lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? > > > > Kinder suprises (as far as i remember from childhood) always had like, series of specific items, a collection. Maybe 10 different dogs, maybe dragons, you name it. > > Point is, some children (even adults) maybe like some collections, and possibly want all of the items inside the collection, which you can find inside the egg. However, since its RNG, its not gonna take you 10 eggs to get all 10 dogs(unless you get super lucky), it might take you 15, 25, 50 etc... > > By this logic, you could count this as gambling, and that kinder surprise is a lootbox, since it holds a random item, and you most likely want a specific item. > > > > Oh, and another thing. Kinder Eggs dont have a single collection, they have multiple, hundreds. They come and go, but the thing is, in shops the eggs are mixed. When the eggs get sold, extra are put on top. Now those eggs which are being advertised that they contain "dogs" might also have a collection among them which contain "Barbie girls" or something. Soo now its even more RNG on top if you want a specific item. > > i know what kinder surprises are but how are they in anyway comparable to lootboxes besides content is random. if you said a card pack or something i'd understand but kinder surprise? really? I look at it this way. If we compare Black Lion Chests to Kinder eggs, this is what we can say: - They both cost around 1$ - They both have a guranteed item (BLC has the rotation item + stattuete, kinder egg has chocolate) - They both have a guranteed random item(s) from a specific pool/collections (BLC has the 2(3) slots which contain 2 common and possibly 3rd rare item, kinder egg has a random toy) Now the differences: - You cannot trade BLC items (at least most of them, kinder egg ones you can) - You can see what you can get from BLC, kinder egg you go in fully blind. To me it does seem like it could easily count as some sort of lootbox, no ? Ofcourse it seems wierd, but it kind of is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Glider.5792" said: > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > @"Glider.5792" said: > > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > > > > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > > > > > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... > > > > > > > > lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? > > > > > > Kinder suprises (as far as i remember from childhood) always had like, series of specific items, a collection. Maybe 10 different dogs, maybe dragons, you name it. > > > Point is, some children (even adults) maybe like some collections, and possibly want all of the items inside the collection, which you can find inside the egg. However, since its RNG, its not gonna take you 10 eggs to get all 10 dogs(unless you get super lucky), it might take you 15, 25, 50 etc... > > > By this logic, you could count this as gambling, and that kinder surprise is a lootbox, since it holds a random item, and you most likely want a specific item. > > > > > > Oh, and another thing. Kinder Eggs dont have a single collection, they have multiple, hundreds. They come and go, but the thing is, in shops the eggs are mixed. When the eggs get sold, extra are put on top. Now those eggs which are being advertised that they contain "dogs" might also have a collection among them which contain "Barbie girls" or something. Soo now its even more RNG on top if you want a specific item. > > > > i know what kinder surprises are but how are they in anyway comparable to lootboxes besides content is random. if you said a card pack or something i'd understand but kinder surprise? really? > > I look at it this way. If we compare Black Lion Chests to Kinder eggs, this is what we can say: > - They both cost around 1$ > - They both have a guranteed item (BLC has the rotation item + stattuete, kinder egg has chocolate) > - They both have a guranteed random item(s) from a specific pool/collections (BLC has the 2(3) slots which contain 2 common and possibly 3rd rare item, kinder egg has a random toy) > > Now the differences: > - You cannot trade BLC items (at least most of them, kinder egg ones you can) > - You can see what you can get from BLC, kinder egg you go in fully blind. > > To me it does seem like it could easily count as some sort of lootbox, no ? Ofcourse it seems wierd, but it kind of is. also kinder eggs are a type of candy with a random toy lootboxes are a bunch of random items (with sometimes a few guaranteed drops) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"Glider.5792" said: > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > > > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > > > > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... > > > > > > lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? > > > > Kinder suprises (as far as i remember from childhood) always had like, series of specific items, a collection. Maybe 10 different dogs, maybe dragons, you name it. > > Point is, some children (even adults) maybe like some collections, and possibly want all of the items inside the collection, which you can find inside the egg. However, since its RNG, its not gonna take you 10 eggs to get all 10 dogs(unless you get super lucky), it might take you 15, 25, 50 etc... > > By this logic, you could count this as gambling, and that kinder surprise is a lootbox, since it holds a random item, and you most likely want a specific item. > > > > Oh, and another thing. Kinder Eggs dont have a single collection, they have multiple, hundreds. They come and go, but the thing is, in shops the eggs are mixed. When the eggs get sold, extra are put on top. Now those eggs which are being advertised that they contain "dogs" might also have a collection among them which contain "Barbie girls" or something. Soo now its even more RNG on top if you want a specific item. > > i know what kinder surprises are but how are they in anyway comparable to lootboxes besides content is random. if you said a card pack or something i'd understand but kinder surprise? really? Is the kinder surprise less random than a card pack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Sometimes a guaranteed drop? BL Chests have _always_ had a posted guaranteed drop. First it was a tonic, then it was a booster. Now it's the Seasonal item, and a Claim Ticket. Sometimes.../smh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"mercury ranique.2170" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > @"thehipone.6812" said: > > > Yeah it kinda sucks, but the path is to complain to your politicians who passed the stupid laws. You can't really expect a private (and foreign) company to spend resources/incur costs and a loss to create a system to get around silly laws. > > > > They probably should because this legislation will be EU-wide within a few years. Belgium went ahead and did it first, while most other countries are waiting on Union-wide decisions to start working on their own legislation. > > Knowing the EU, the end result will be much less then the current Belgium outcome. EU wide legislation is very complicated and known to be very susceptible to lobbies. > > Maybe true, though I'm much more worried about my own government really. Once they get the scent of money, they'll squeeze out every cent they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > @"Glider.5792" said: > > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > > > > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > > > > > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... > > > > > > > > lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? > > > > > > Kinder suprises (as far as i remember from childhood) always had like, series of specific items, a collection. Maybe 10 different dogs, maybe dragons, you name it. > > > Point is, some children (even adults) maybe like some collections, and possibly want all of the items inside the collection, which you can find inside the egg. However, since its RNG, its not gonna take you 10 eggs to get all 10 dogs(unless you get super lucky), it might take you 15, 25, 50 etc... > > > By this logic, you could count this as gambling, and that kinder surprise is a lootbox, since it holds a random item, and you most likely want a specific item. > > > > > > Oh, and another thing. Kinder Eggs dont have a single collection, they have multiple, hundreds. They come and go, but the thing is, in shops the eggs are mixed. When the eggs get sold, extra are put on top. Now those eggs which are being advertised that they contain "dogs" might also have a collection among them which contain "Barbie girls" or something. Soo now its even more RNG on top if you want a specific item. > > > > i know what kinder surprises are but how are they in anyway comparable to lootboxes besides content is random. if you said a card pack or something i'd understand but kinder surprise? really? > > Is the kinder surprise less random than a card pack? it's a type of candy. or would you compare cereal to card packs and lootboxes because they've got a secret toy inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said: > Sometimes a guaranteed drop? BL Chests have _always_ had a posted guaranteed drop. First it was a tonic, then it was a booster. Now it's the Seasonal item, and a Claim Ticket. > > Sometimes.../smh i'm referring to *all* lootboxes, not just gw2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombyturtle.5980 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > I agree with @"thehipone.6812": it's not reasonable to expect that a game company will invent a whole new system just to accommodate a single country, representing a tiny fraction of income... especially when many people disagree with the way the regulators decided to handle it (treating all cash boxes the same, rather than noting that some games are predatory and some aren't). > > It's a problem caused by Belgian regulators deciding to impose their preferences without negotiating with the industry first, so it's most efficiently handled by expressing the same opinion to them. They might decide to impose further regulations (to disallow the possibility of citizens of one country not being able to get certain items) or they might decide to adjust the original rules. Or they might not do anything. Whatever it was won't be quick: it took them about 6-9 months to introduce these rules, so I'd expect at least that much time if they wanted to make a change. > > I totally disagree. Any cash box that has RNG unqiue rewards is predatory and should be banned under gambling laws unless that gaming company has a gambling licence. I am 100% glad that at least 1 country stood up to greedy companies and I 100% hope my country bans them too. I can sacrifice a few skins if it means this horrible horrible plague on gaming is put to an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"derd.6413" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > @"Glider.5792" said: > > > > > @"derd.6413" said: > > > > > > @"anninke.7469" said: > > > > > > Excuse me for being slightly OT, but this has been bugging me for quite some time - if lootboxes are considered gambling does it mean that things like Kinder Surprise (or similar) eggs and all kinds of "mystery packages" are forbidden too? Because I can see no difference there. And many of them are directly targeted at children, which should be even worse seen from this point of view. > > > > > > Anyway, I was just curious and wanted to ask... > > > > > > > > > > lootboxes similar to kinder surprises? what???? > > > > > > > > Kinder suprises (as far as i remember from childhood) always had like, series of specific items, a collection. Maybe 10 different dogs, maybe dragons, you name it. > > > > Point is, some children (even adults) maybe like some collections, and possibly want all of the items inside the collection, which you can find inside the egg. However, since its RNG, its not gonna take you 10 eggs to get all 10 dogs(unless you get super lucky), it might take you 15, 25, 50 etc... > > > > By this logic, you could count this as gambling, and that kinder surprise is a lootbox, since it holds a random item, and you most likely want a specific item. > > > > > > > > Oh, and another thing. Kinder Eggs dont have a single collection, they have multiple, hundreds. They come and go, but the thing is, in shops the eggs are mixed. When the eggs get sold, extra are put on top. Now those eggs which are being advertised that they contain "dogs" might also have a collection among them which contain "Barbie girls" or something. Soo now its even more RNG on top if you want a specific item. > > > > > > i know what kinder surprises are but how are they in anyway comparable to lootboxes besides content is random. if you said a card pack or something i'd understand but kinder surprise? really? > > > > Is the kinder surprise less random than a card pack? > > it's a type of candy. or would you compare cereal to card packs and lootboxes because they've got a secret toy inside. What is contained seems somewhat irrelevant compared to the method of acquisition. The people buying kinder in my area are primarily doing so for a chance at a desired random prize. The people buying card packs in my area are primarily doing so for a chance at a desired random card. Note the parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Gambling usually takes into account things like value of what you can win. Kinder eggs aren't considered gambling because they don't hold anything valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Yannir.4132" said: > Gambling usually takes into account things like value of what you can win. Kinder eggs aren't considered gambling because they don't hold anything valuable. That's highly subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derd.6413 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"kharmin.7683" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > Gambling usually takes into account things like value of what you can win. Kinder eggs aren't considered gambling because they don't hold anything valuable. > > That's highly subjective. have you actually seen the toys from those eggs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phs.6089 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Consider yourself lucky, you won't get upset by flashing 2k gems into void and getting trash. Like me atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Belgium is right to do it and I hope more countries follow soon. Black Lion Keys are poison because it's GW2's version of loot boxes. It sucks perhaps for you right now but in the end I believe it's for the betterment of the industry. Game companies have little to no ethical fiber left in them and it's time that the laws catch up with their gambling style monetization. The only reason why it's not considered gambling in most countries is just because the laws are behind on these new developments. Most EU countries are working together now on seeing how they want to deal with these things and bring out EU regulations. Particularly because it's a Teen rated game and games have no business been Teen rated and using adult systems to get money from people. ArenaNet clearly isn't going to take the lead in this topic because they want to milk these gambling tactics for as long as they can, just like the rest. It's not Belgian law that is screwing you over, it's ArenaNet. A more general note: All these comparisons to Kinder eggs are ridiculous as well. Although there is of course the randomized element to it and some basic comparisons can be made, it's not even close to how it works and what value it represents. I think it's safe to state that kids never spent anywhere near as much on Kinder Eggs as people spend on loot boxes or keys. Another thing that needs to be considered is the monopoly position of a game creator. Other companies can make chocolates for kids and compete in various ways. Because these loot boxes and keys are tied to a specific game, there is no competition to the gem store. That allows game makers to set prices as they like. They will look at competitors to not be out of step too much but since they all overcharge by enormous amounts. What you need to do is see what the toy in the egg represents. The fairest comparison I can come up with is the Black Lion weapon skins. Each egg gives you a toy, does each BLC give you a weapon? No, you have to buy more. The only way that you could make a fair comparison with Kinder Eggs, is if the Kinder Eggs didn't give you a toy guaranteed but only a few do. You already get the chocolate so that's your core value (for those people who want to argue that you always get something from BLCs) and then it's about those weapon skins or occasional really really rare items that sell for 4000 gold on the TP or are account bound which is worse even. Kinder Eggs don't go that far. So no, it's not even close to a like for like comparison. I really just hope that more countries crack down on the gambling element and make it so that companies can't do this anymore. And then they can pay the appropriate taxes when they do want to make adult games with gambling and they can put the warning labels on there as well. That's how it should be in my view with this sort of thing. I may be old but it really was a much better situation when you bought games and you got everything included in the game with the box price. And then you paid for expansions but they were content additions and you got the whole thing in one purchase. People may have accepted that games take half of the stuff out and monetize the crap out of it, but it's not better for your wallet and companies made profits before mtx as well. Just not insane ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algreg.3629 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Asum.4960" said: > > @"biczkowski.2961" said: > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > @"thehipone.6812" said: > > > > Yeah it kinda sucks, but the path is to complain to your politicians who passed the stupid laws. You can't really expect a private (and foreign) company to spend resources/incur costs and a loss to create a system to get around silly laws. > > > > > > Or, you know, complain about gaming companies locking things away behind gambling mechanisms to exploit consumers in the first place. > > > > So yeah. Let's make the world less free for everyone because there's a tiny minority of people who can't control their urges and spend too much on pixels and politicians abuse this to make themselves look good by passing totalitarian laws. > > > > Don't kid yourself. Those politicians don't really care for "addicted gamers". All they care about is having a bullet point on their rep sheet: "In 2020 $politician took up to combat game addiction. Because he/she cares about CHILDREN". > > > > Addicts gonna addict. No amount of prohibition is going to change that. It just makes the life for the majority of people, who are not addicted, less free. > > I'm guessing you are also in favour of companies being free to dispose of toxic waste in any way they please, because requiring them to do so safely is a totalitarian law that restricts freedom. > > Freedom is not a catch all positive term. Protecting **people** from exploitation by curbing the freedoms of **corporations** certainly isn't a bad thing in most cases. > Why consumers would stand up to defend companies implementing psychologically exploitative ways to make more money is beyond me. > > Also, this doesn't just affect a minority with gambling addictions. > There are plenty of people who end up spending obscene amounts of money on loot boxes to get some skin, which they would have never spent if the item was just sold for equally as much directly, be it through falling into the sunk-cost fallacy after they started gambling for it for a bit, or some other trick these companies bank on to keep you over spending. > > The intention of politicians to self promote is pretty irrelevant for me (as that would otherwise invalidate essentially anything they do), as long as the results are good, such as protecting consumers from predatory business practices. well, comrade, you can not choose to not suffer from toxic waste. You can choose to not buy loot boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > @"biczkowski.2961" said: > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > > @"thehipone.6812" said: > > > > > Yeah it kinda sucks, but the path is to complain to your politicians who passed the stupid laws. You can't really expect a private (and foreign) company to spend resources/incur costs and a loss to create a system to get around silly laws. > > > > > > > > Or, you know, complain about gaming companies locking things away behind gambling mechanisms to exploit consumers in the first place. > > > > > > So yeah. Let's make the world less free for everyone because there's a tiny minority of people who can't control their urges and spend too much on pixels and politicians abuse this to make themselves look good by passing totalitarian laws. > > > > > > Don't kid yourself. Those politicians don't really care for "addicted gamers". All they care about is having a bullet point on their rep sheet: "In 2020 $politician took up to combat game addiction. Because he/she cares about CHILDREN". > > > > > > Addicts gonna addict. No amount of prohibition is going to change that. It just makes the life for the majority of people, who are not addicted, less free. > > > > I'm guessing you are also in favour of companies being free to dispose of toxic waste in any way they please, because requiring them to do so safely is a totalitarian law that restricts freedom. > > > > Freedom is not a catch all positive term. Protecting **people** from exploitation by curbing the freedoms of **corporations** certainly isn't a bad thing in most cases. > > Why consumers would stand up to defend companies implementing psychologically exploitative ways to make more money is beyond me. > > > > Also, this doesn't just affect a minority with gambling addictions. > > There are plenty of people who end up spending obscene amounts of money on loot boxes to get some skin, which they would have never spent if the item was just sold for equally as much directly, be it through falling into the sunk-cost fallacy after they started gambling for it for a bit, or some other trick these companies bank on to keep you over spending. > > > > The intention of politicians to self promote is pretty irrelevant for me (as that would otherwise invalidate essentially anything they do), as long as the results are good, such as protecting consumers from predatory business practices. > > well, comrade, you can not choose to not suffer from toxic waste. You can choose to not buy loot boxes. And it will still affect game design to encourage that spending (forcing grinds, etc.), as well as/or lock people out of obtaining certain items completely, if they choose not to participate in such gambling. So while you can choose not to buy Lootboxes, you can't choose to not be affected by them. Comrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Asum.4960" said: > > @"Algreg.3629" said: > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > @"biczkowski.2961" said: > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > > > @"thehipone.6812" said: > > > > > > Yeah it kinda sucks, but the path is to complain to your politicians who passed the stupid laws. You can't really expect a private (and foreign) company to spend resources/incur costs and a loss to create a system to get around silly laws. > > > > > > > > > > Or, you know, complain about gaming companies locking things away behind gambling mechanisms to exploit consumers in the first place. > > > > > > > > So yeah. Let's make the world less free for everyone because there's a tiny minority of people who can't control their urges and spend too much on pixels and politicians abuse this to make themselves look good by passing totalitarian laws. > > > > > > > > Don't kid yourself. Those politicians don't really care for "addicted gamers". All they care about is having a bullet point on their rep sheet: "In 2020 $politician took up to combat game addiction. Because he/she cares about CHILDREN". > > > > > > > > Addicts gonna addict. No amount of prohibition is going to change that. It just makes the life for the majority of people, who are not addicted, less free. > > > > > > I'm guessing you are also in favour of companies being free to dispose of toxic waste in any way they please, because requiring them to do so safely is a totalitarian law that restricts freedom. > > > > > > Freedom is not a catch all positive term. Protecting **people** from exploitation by curbing the freedoms of **corporations** certainly isn't a bad thing in most cases. > > > Why consumers would stand up to defend companies implementing psychologically exploitative ways to make more money is beyond me. > > > > > > Also, this doesn't just affect a minority with gambling addictions. > > > There are plenty of people who end up spending obscene amounts of money on loot boxes to get some skin, which they would have never spent if the item was just sold for equally as much directly, be it through falling into the sunk-cost fallacy after they started gambling for it for a bit, or some other trick these companies bank on to keep you over spending. > > > > > > The intention of politicians to self promote is pretty irrelevant for me (as that would otherwise invalidate essentially anything they do), as long as the results are good, such as protecting consumers from predatory business practices. > > > > well, comrade, you can not choose to not suffer from toxic waste. You can choose to not buy loot boxes. > > And it will still affect game design to encourage that spending (forcing grinds, etc.), as well as/or lock people out of obtaining certain items completely, if they choose not to participate in such gambling. > So while you can choose not to buy Lootboxes, you can't choose to not be affected by them. > > Comrade. But those things do not offer anything required to play the game. It is all optional, so yes ... you can choose not to be affected by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > Any cash box that has RNG unqiue rewards is predatory Except it's not predatory, because none of these items are _necessary_ to enjoy the game. They are entirely optional. I get that you don't like the practice, but it's no worse than a car company only selling the feature you really want in the model with 8 features you don't. It's hype and marketing. There are games that do have predatory loot boxes, that contain items you actually need to progress or keep playing. GW2 is not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inculpatus cedo.9234 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 It seems strange to me that people patronize such exploitative, poisonous, unethical, predatory, greedy, plague-infested, monopolizing games/studios. One would think they would make their opinions known to the powers that be without seemingly showing their support playing/seen associating with said games. I remember when a random children's product was all the rage, and how much money was spent on said product. Totally legal (in fact, considered by high courts and found not to be gambling), and for children; trading cards, specifically Pokeman trading cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff.5312 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > Any cash box that has RNG unqiue rewards is predatory > Except it's not predatory, because none of these items are _necessary_ to enjoy the game. They are entirely optional. > > I get that you don't like the practice, but it's no worse than a car company only selling the feature you really want in the model with 8 features you don't. It's hype and marketing. > > There are games that do have predatory loot boxes, that contain items you actually need to progress or keep playing. GW2 is not one of them. > And there are gambling addicts that don't 'need' the money they could win. It's not about offering things people need. It's about encouraging addictive behaviour, especially in children. Nobody 'needs' to play the game at all. Fact is, some people get into financial trouble because of this kind of thing. The fact they don't HAVE TO doesn't make the problem go away. If a kid gets his parents' credit card and plays online poker, do you really argue that since he doesn't need to win a hand there's no issue with him playing? This is profiting by exploiting a weakness in the player, and there's no good reason for it except that compulsive types fall victim and spend a lot of money on it. If that didn't happen, they wouldn't even use this model for peddling things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Biff.5312" said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > Any cash box that has RNG unqiue rewards is predatory > > Except it's not predatory, because none of these items are _necessary_ to enjoy the game. They are entirely optional. > > > > I get that you don't like the practice, but it's no worse than a car company only selling the feature you really want in the model with 8 features you don't. It's hype and marketing. > > > > There are games that do have predatory loot boxes, that contain items you actually need to progress or keep playing. GW2 is not one of them. > > > > And there are gambling addicts that don't 'need' the money they could win. It's not about offering things people need. It's about encouraging addictive behaviour, especially in children. Nobody 'needs' to play the game at all. Fact is, some people get into financial trouble because of this kind of thing. The fact they don't HAVE TO doesn't make the problem go away. If a kid gets his parents' credit card and plays online poker, do you really argue that since he doesn't need to win a hand there's no issue with him playing? This is profiting by exploiting a weakness in the player, and there's no good reason for it except that compulsive types fall victim and spend a lot of money on it. If that didn't happen, they wouldn't even use this model for peddling things. This isn't online poker. And all marketing is ultimately a way of exploiting people. If you make the claims, you have to back it up with data and research. And there really isn't any that shows that all lotteries are equivalent, that there's some sort of "gateway" mechanic in which people who acquire loot boxes are going to end up becoming compulsive gamblers. The fact is that some people are compulsive and it won't really matter what the regulations are, if it's not easy for them to get help. Regardless of regulations, it's important for parents to keep track of spending. If it's an electronic game, then the parents have access to near-instant alerts from their banks, so it's easy to keep track of "if a kid gets his parents' credit card." In fact, I think it's a disservice to parents and gambling addicts to make it seem as if the government can provide sufficient protection. It's better to distinguish between different practices, treat them accordingly, and to leave some responsibility on the individual/family. There are other ways to address this, which take a nuanced approach. That's especially important when considering that these regulations affect _everyone_, while only a tiny fraction of people need special attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > Any cash box that has RNG unqiue rewards is predatory > Except it's not predatory, because none of these items are _necessary_ to enjoy the game. predatory; adj. 2. seeking to exploit or oppress others. The use of "or" denotes that either exploitation or oppression qualifies, no need that it be both. exploit; v. 1. make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource). From a business perspective, loot boxes exist for one purpose -- to get people to spend more money on virtual items than they would if the item were sold at a fixed price. The psychology works this way. If Item X is sold for a high price, a lot of people won't buy it. They sometimes complain about it (see 2000 gem mount skins). However, if Item X is in a loot box, a lot of people think, "I'll be one of the lucky ones." Some even do get lucky. Some of the rest will succumb to the gambler's fallacy and/or sunk cost fallacy. Some don't get the item at all, others do -- often by spending way more than they would otherwise. Gaming companies that sell loot boxes know what they are doing and why. They are indeed "making full use of" peoples' tendencies -- and they are deriving benefit. They are exploiting player tendencies and the practice of doing so is by definition "predatory." While being necessary to enjoy the game is a step beyond what ANet does, it is by no means required to satisfy the definition of predatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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