Side noding isn't fun - Here is a possible solution

[Phantaram.4816]

As many know I main weaver and a group of good players got together tonight and we did in-house organized matches. 8 to 10 matches or so. Weavers best role in the competitive setting is to 1v1 on the side nodes. Well, most match ups that are against another side noder class/spec just turn into a stalemate. 90% of my time spent in these extremely competitive and close matches of guild wars 2 could have been with my hands not on my keyboard and mouse. Same goes for the guy I was 1v1ing on the side nodes. It meant nothing. We couldn't kill each other. This has been a problem for a long time in guild wars 2 any time the side node meta turns into a tanky mess. Many times in the past the 1v1 side node meta has been healthy where the 1v1s actually end in a reasonable amount of time and the side noders can then join their teammates in the team fight and impact the state of the game.

 

To make all side node match ups not stalemates would be an extremely daunting class balance task that would effect the team fight and solo queue balance also. So I'm here to propose a solution that will last outside of class balance.

 

Simply put when you are the only person on your team on a contested node for 30 seconds or more you begin to take on an ever increasing damage recieved buff. Starts at 10%, then at 45 seconds 20%, then at 1 minute 30% etc. (Numbers can be changed to whatever works best) This debuff will work for condi and power damage. The second (or maybe a slight duration) you are not on a contested node the debuff is no longer in effect but if you step onto the node within 15 seconds (It takes ~13 seconds to capture a neutral node and I think about 5s to decap a node so 15s seems reasonable) the debuff refreshes at the original percentage of damage.

 

The intent of this would be so that side node 1v1s actually end and mean something even if both classes/specs fighting each other are very tanky. This will also influence builds to take more damage. As of now when people know its a stalemate they take all the defense they can because then you can survive a 1v2 or 1v3 better. When they know they can kill the other person in the 1v1 sooner they will be encouraged to take higher damage rather than higher defense.

 

In my head I can't think of a way to abuse this and I think it would only improve the Conquest game mode for the better but please let me know if you can think of anything. Cheers!

 

Edit: After some feedback I think it'd be best if the damage buff dissipated the second you take damage from more than 1 player, if that is possible.

Edit2: Countless has presented the idea that instead of increased damage taken from the debuff it is reduced healing received. Whichever works best!

[Fortus.6175]

I remember from back in the old days your name being mentioned often in the ele subforum. Seems you still play the class, but it seems you havent been able to escape from being able to play the only "non completely useless" speccs have available; the annoying-far-self-healing-troll-staller weaver build.... how far have we eles fallen from grace from the old D/D cele days that were so much fun and engaging gameplay (although certainly overtuned at times).

 

Here is my take on how to start approaching this issue, **Give everyone the ele treatment**:

 

-You want sustain? Trait/amulet for it. Right now a palandin or marauder scrapper/holosmith/soulbeast/spellbreaker have as much, if not more sustain than an ele with mender/healing runes/water and arcane traits, yet 2-3x the damage for 1/2 the effort too. Reduce healing base values and increase scaling across the board. Do you want sustain, or damage? Take your pick, not both.

 

-Give classes more windows of opportunities for retaliation. You know if an ele gets out of an element or overloads it, they are locked out of it, meanwhile, soulbeasts revive pets every 10 secs + many more perks, holosmiths have virtually no CD nor costs, mirages engage on their terms and their terms only, spellbreaker's GS is do-it-all-be-all, scrapper might as well fall asleep on keyboard (both sides). There are classes with little to no window of clear counterattacks, or predictability on rotations. Meanwhile eles are as predictable as it without much in terms of power return for such windows of vulnerability.

 

I understand "nerfs" are not fun, but powercreep is never ending. We can bring eles up to par, or we can start hammering outliers, and I choose the later.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/SteamyDullNewtOptimizePrime (may I interest you in some interesting and engaging scrapper gameplay? here we see a scrapper at home, and one at far, contesting the nodes, and making everyone in the game have a blast :) )

[Stand The Wall.6987]

seems reasonable. maybe from 15 to 10 seconds for that debuff timer since a 3 sec window could be hard to achieve.

also I would stick with damage debuff cuz a healing one plus poison seems like it would be too much, plus there are builds that don't use healing that much.

[LolLookAtMyAP.8394]

Yep, might seem like a band-aid approach but to think outside the box is the best way to balance conquest in its current stage. Having a stagnant role is never a good thing.

[Tycura.1982]

I like side node 1v1s and find them fun even if they drag on because someone's going to mess up or blow out and it makes the fight all the more thrilling for me. Longest fight I've had is like an hour and ten minutes in a 1v1.

[Yannir.4132]

This seems like an artificial bandaid to me.

Just make duelists less immortal, more vulnerable to +1's. But give them more damage when you do it.

Buff some of the +1 classes like Thief and Mesmer's power builds.

[Miles Smiles.8951]

we all know it's never gonna happen

[mortrialus.3062]

I think it's less that side noding isn't fun (I personally love side noding), but that the meta SD Weaver build isn't particularly fun. SD Weaver is not a fun build to fight and [i don't think most Eles really like it. ](

"I don't think most Eles really like it. ")

 

Compare a meta spellbreaker. It's fun dodging Full Counters, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind and Arcing Slice. It feels amazing when you completely negate a Rampage knowing how high impact that skill would have been and manage to counter pressure them while they're in it knowing that it's likely the end of the duel. Conversely the wave of panic getting CC'd in rampage knowing you blew your stunbreak or don't have blinds is exhilarating.

 

Weaver just doesn't have the same level of excitement. Fighting it doesn't feel like I really have any skills I really need to worry about so much as avoiding a large enough percentage of them. Because of the level of cleanse and resustain none of your own skills feel really impactful because the momentum you might have gained is gone the next second.

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I think it's less that side noding isn't fun (I personally love side noding), but that the meta SD Weaver build isn't particularly fun. SD Weaver is not a fun build to fight and [i don't think most Eles really like it. ](

"I don't think most Eles really like it. ")

>

> Compare a meta spellbreaker. It's fun dodging Full Counters, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind and Arcing Slice. It feels amazing when you completely negate a Rampage knowing how high impact that skill would have been and manage to counter pressure them while they're in it knowing that it's likely the end of the duel. Conversely the wave of panic getting CC'd in rampage knowing you blew your stunbreak or don't have blinds is exhilarating.

>

> Weaver just doesn't have the same level of excitement. Fighting it doesn't feel like I really have any skills I really need to worry about so much as avoiding a large enough percentage of them. Because of the level of cleanse and resustain none of your own skills feel really impactful because the momentum you might have gained is gone the next second.

 

This is what happens when you design an elite spec that reduces the ability of a player to react and adapt to the situation, with its very restrictive profession mechanic. Players are forced into coming up with standard rotations and comboing multiple skills to do one thing. Nothing that you do makes any particular skill in your tool set feel impactful, except perhaps riptide. The truth of the matter is that indeed there are almost no impactful skills, both because of how weak they are designed individually and because of how you cannot access your offhand skills when you need them. This off hand limitation is also the reason why you **must** run sword, as it's the only weapon that was designed with that mechanic in mind.

 

This cannot be fixed until they come up with an elite spec that is not needlessly convoluted instead of fun. The best that eles can hope for now is for tempest to get buffed to a reasonable level until the devs come up with the next set of elite specs. At least that is my opinion.

[Megametzler.5729]

I strongly disagree with this suggestion. It emphasizes +1 builds and roamers, which already have a strong position. (Well, not taking into account the new meta, which might change with especially scrapper.) You could do it the other way around - when you stay on a point for a specific time, you _deal_ increased damage. This would however lower the value of +1 classes - and that is also something I would be very careful with, because it might contribute to a bunker meta.

 

So a change like this would either devalue sidenoders significantly - current ele would struggle extremely with your suggestion - or lead to a bunker meta.

 

What has been proposed for a while now is: Increase the damage from those extremely bunkery classes like ele, drooid and now maybe scrapper. And decrease the sustain significantly. This way dodge rolls, landing skills and CCs, baiting and CD counting become meaningful again. However, I guess this would be a bigger rework accross several classes and is not likely to happen, I fear.

 

 

[Phantaram.1265]

Some of these comments are making it about weaver and the current meta. Even in the current meta idc what class you play side noding is simply an insanely low impact role. This is about an ever lasting solution to something that has been a problem through out gw2s history. Ideally yes, anet becomes pvp balancing gods over night and solves this problem. Thats not happening though. This is similar to how anet put in the rule in competitive where you couldn't have more than 1 of the same class on your team. Not ideal but solves the problem indefinitely outside of anet class balancing.

 

[Ario.8964]

I like countless' suggestion of reducing the healing received as right now I feel like the reason most fights stall out is too much healing present in the fight between the two. Damage received would be interesting but I feel like with all the defenses and sustain available it wouldn't accomplish as much in actual games as just reducing healing.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

I don't know - I feel it promotes +1 builds and generally one-shot builds and currently everything seems to die too fast in spamy PoF meta. I would like this idea if we were in infamous ranked season 1 but now it would only make everything worse.

[phokus.8934]

This doesn't solve the issue at hand - the builds have too much sustain.

 

A philosophy change needs to happen at ANet regarding the frequency of balance updates before they put in these gimmicks.

[Interpretor.3091]

I disagree. Side noders impact a match moreso than any other individual on the team in mutliple ways.

 

1) They force 1v2 on far nodes, allowing your team to win favorable matchups elsewhere.

 

2) They force enemy defensive CDs for faster 1+s by Thieves and Revenants.

 

3) And they sometimes even win their 1v1s allowing for huge point swings and forced enemy team rotations.

 

Good Mirages, Soulbeast, probably Scappers now, and even sometimes Spellbreakers are coveted in games both at high and low levels because they do all 3 of these things extremely well.

 

I read your post above that it’s not about Weaver, but it is. The reason you are so frustrated as a Weaver main is because Weaver does only 1 of those things well (the first one). Weavers don’t do enough damage to force defensive CDs or win their 1v1s consistently.

 

I would either accept that Weaver is in a bad place right now as a spec in the current meta and reroll classes or play the Fresh Air/scepter glass cannon build and try and carry team fights and 1+ side nodes.

[Phantaram.4816]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> This doesn't solve the issue at hand - the builds have too much sustain.

>

> A philosophy change needs to happen at ANet regarding the frequency of balance updates before they put in these gimmicks.

 

People get insta-killed in team fights all the time and then it snowballs out of control and people die left and right. Sometimes team fights end the second it starts because there is so much damage. Then on side nodes no one dies.

 

Is damage too high or too little?

 

> @"Mr Godlike.6098" said:

> I don't know - I feel it promotes +1 builds and generally one-shot builds and currently everything seems to die too fast in spamy PoF meta. I would like this idea if we were in infamous ranked season 1 but now it would only make everything worse.

I guarantee you 2v1ing for one kill in a 1v1 thats been going on for a minute + while your team gets killed in a 4v3 is a bad idea.

[phokus.8934]

> @"Phantaram.4816" said:

> > @"phokus.8934" said:

> > This doesn't solve the issue at hand - the builds have too much sustain.

> >

> > A philosophy change needs to happen at ANet regarding the frequency of balance updates before they put in these gimmicks.

>

> People get insta-killed in team fights all the time and then it snowballs out of control and people die left and right. Sometimes team fights end the second it starts because there is so much damage. Then on side nodes no one dies.

>

> Is damage too high or too little?

>

I'd say damage is a tad high in today's game. But damage being high is relative to support builds or hybrid builds like we've seen with the latest iteration of Scrapper. Anet either overbuffs or severely nerfs classes/utilities/traits. For me, the problem we have is their balance cadence of once every 3 months or longer. If they focus on more meaningful balance updates then I think we'll have a healthier game mode.

 

[SoulSin.5682]

You mean like some sort of stamina system?

 

I disagree with the part that being attacked by another player should drop the debuff.

If my opponent gets debuffed thats a good opportunity to call a friend for +1 or even rotate with another fresh duelist to keep the duel rolling.

[apharma.3741]

This is really a symptom of the power creep and why I keep saying we need heavy nerfs and increases to cool downs. What's enabling these boring match ups and this infinite sustain is that the sustain cycle has become smaller and smaller with the expansions while giving more defence options for a class to stack if they want.

 

All of this is warping the fundamental and core of GW2, boons, conditions, node capture, WvW, old content, look through all the changes across the game that have been made over the year and you can see the bandaids being applied to what's suddenly breaking the game at that time.

 

Your idea is nothing but another band aid, we need nerfs and a reigning in of the power creep that's happened since HoT. We need the elite specs to take as well as give so we don't end up with adding more X ontop of what it's already got, classic example is FB adding more support onto a class that was already one of the strongest supports with 0 down side pretty much.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the problem with balancing for pvp is... balancing for pvp. my heart goes out to the balance dev people cuz I bet trying to juggle 3 modes at the same time must be hard, even tho I smack talk them every now and then lol. mode specific changes make sense, even tho there are good ideas out there on how to bring some over tuned classes into line.

[Zenix.6198]

I dont like the idea of taking increased damage.

Cause as it stands now....people still have room to go even beefier....like people still have the option to go paladins or even soldier amulet : /

 

I do however think, that reducing healing as times go by could be interesting.

Obviously that would only be a band-aid fix though.... actual balance would be preferred.

[Exedore.6320]

Just nerf the damn power creep instead of creating convoluted band-aids.

[Solaerin.8635]

I feel like this is too complicated of a solution for a game this deep into its lifespan, particularly given that it doesn't really address the fundamental problem of side node specs being unkillable 1v1.

 

I think that Fortus gets it -- elementalist is the only profession in the game that has to make meaningful decisions & trade-offs regarding damage and sustain. Normalizing base health and armor for pvp, for better or worse, would have a massive impact on the balance of the game. Making professions like warrior have to actually invest in healing power to reach the level of sustain it currently has with a demolisher amulet, for example, would also be huge.

 

For example, when I play holosmith, I can healing turret (2 x 2.5k heals, 2 condi cleanse) + detonate (1.3k heal) + blast finisher (1.3k heal) + leap finisher (1.3k heal) every 20 seconds. That's on a profession that already has higher base health and armor than elementalist, and thus doesn't need to invest in vitality to have an adequate health pool. Compare that with a skill like glyph of elemental harmony, which is a 6.5k heal with no cleanse or combo potential on the same cooldown. There's just no parity between professions; if I want my healing to not be garbage on elementalist I HAVE to either invest in healing power, supplement my healing skill with a multitude of different traits geared around sustain, or both. There needs to be a philosophy change where every profession has to invest in sustain in order to have sustain to really get to the heart of the problem, imo

[Math.5123]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> I dont like the idea of taking increased damage.

> Cause as it stands now....people still have room to go even beefier....like people still have the option to go paladins or even soldier amulet : /

>

> I do however think, that reducing healing as times go by could be interesting.

> Obviously that would only be a band-aid fix though.... actual balance would be preferred.

 

This is by far the worst idea. Some people rely on healing in order to sustain, see honor guardian for example. While you have stuff like mirage and Weaver that used evades to sustain. Scrapper relies on barrier, blocks and evades while soulbeast have a lot of face tanking potential.

 

This would do nothing but further nerfing classes without hard mitigation such as evade frames.

[Fortus.6175]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> I dont like the idea of taking increased damage.

> Cause as it stands now....people still have room to go even beefier....like people still have the option to go paladins or even soldier amulet : /

>

> I do however think, that reducing healing as times go by could be interesting.

> Obviously that would only be a band-aid fix though.... actual balance would be preferred.

 

Soldier amulet, the amulet that was removed like nearly 3 years ago? I think you might be mixing WvW in PvP. There is not a single amulet with healing and toughness (other than celestial, but lets face it, most builds waste LOT of stats there so not really a good option for most).

 

I will keep repeating it until my hands fall off:

 

Low base values, high scaling; the ele treatment. Low base damage and healing, when you equip a healing or damage amulet, BAM, either your healing or your damage goes up, but not both. Scrapper/soulbeast/spellbreakers/holos are pirme examples on how NOT to do it by giving them free sustain without a single point in healing, and when you equip those amulets, suddenly you are nearly unkillable if they choose to be troll tanky builds.