Even After the Balance Update, Warrior Still Struggles with Mesmer

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > The problem with most condi mirage nerfs is that it affected power the most and power was already lackluster.

>

> I don't think 25% reduction in evade and super speed uptime from Mirage cloak, 33% reduction in axe ambush torment application, 75% increase to the illusionary ambush cooldown, and nerfs to confusion stacks and duration from Cry of Pain and Ineptitude impacted power more than condi. Since the majority of condi mirage pressure comes from confusion stacking and axe torment application, the impact on their ability to apply that overwhelming pressure while simultaneously evading damage has been significantly reduced.

>

> I think that's why we've seen a drastic reduction in "OMG NERF IT NOW BEFORE IT DESTROYS THE GAME!" threads since the patch. For skilled players these nerfs are perfectly manageable. They'll certainly have an impact, but I think where it hurts most is for those less-skilled mirage players who "spam 1 and dodge" to win. With the reduced pressure and increased vulnerability, it's no longer so easy to simply overwhelm opponents with condi application while spamming dodge. Such players now run the very real risk of overextending and losing the fight when they do this. Which is good, because that's how every other class plays.

>

>

 

MC cut, BF, vigor nerf on both duel and mirage, IA, jaunt?

[Luna.6203]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" Okay point taken. I'm not going to lie this thread is rant no doubt about it. On contrary if someone would make thread "spellbreaker is still op". i would probably be amongst first commenters defending that class. But keep on mind i would not lower my self for personal insults-abuse like some people did. Btw i recieved notification that they removed something Forum Moderator.{censored} March 14, 2019: "Your post was removed because it quoted or directly referred to an unacceptable post made by another forum member" So it obviously crossed line.

 

You need to understand that for 3 months there were approximately two mesmers per match completely hopeless fights for warrior.(i seriously gave up on warrior for while.) Last balance patch does not really bring much difference. At least when i compare these two classes. And it has been done by previous patches. Warrior was fine even OP at very beginning so i could accept some nerfs. I mean, Mesmers cries about nerfs. But consider what they have done to warrior. I think, I should have cry as warrior at first place. And i did that in warrior forum subsection with this sarcastic post:[ https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65522/please-nerf-full-counter-more-it-still-deal-too-much-damage/p1]( https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65522/please-nerf-full-counter-more-it-still-deal-too-much-damage/p1 " https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65522/please-nerf-full-counter-more-it-still-deal-too-much-damage/p1")

 

But fair enough. I accept that title is like taunt and i'll change it as you suggested.

 

BTW >> story time - skip that paragraph if you don't care << i tried to play mesmer mainly for pve because of most groups - fractals and raids - are stuck finding chronos. My first mesmer was lvl 80. But i realized that i cant play class that i dont enjoy. So at end i deleted that character to make free space for different classes. And after recent pvp fiasco i made lvl 1 lobby mesmer just to test it myself and find out how to fight them.

 

It's hard to stay objective and calm critic. This is how i perceive both classes:

 


 


 

So i'm obviously emotionally biased. ^^ but not seriously.

 

And also its hard to give any advice how to solve it.

Because look:

1) you can't boost warrior because warrior is already at good place except mesmer fights.

Some classes are probably stronger than warrior some are weaker right now but it's always really small difference simply you have solid chance to win. It can't be perfectly balanced. And it's fine. But mesmer is still so above warrior. You have no solid chance to win there.

2) you can't nerf mesmer because mesmer is already bad except warrior fights.

There i can't really judge it.. But assume from your comments it's your current state.

 

The problems i see are simply:

You can't compete with mesmer mobility not even close. and targeting is problem really bad and really annoying.

plus warrior is good with avoiding big hits -> counter and block. But here is relatively long downtime and smaller continuous constant damage pressure is really deadly for spellbreaker.

 

I think maybe they should nerf warrior OP skills like rampage even though by my personal opinion this is good only against inexperienced players who dont know how easily you can avoid whole rampage duration or even use it against warrior to kill him in that state. I personally prefer other elite than rampage right now, so couldn't care less about statements "NERF WARRIOR RAMPAGE!", sure why not, i don't know why they boosted that ability in pvp anyway, This skill would be great for pve. But in pve CD is ridiculously long. I believe rampage is main reason why people complain on warrior so much. Because when you try to "face tank" warrior with rampage you will probably die very quickly. And because of that warrior will be nerfed even more on completely unrelated abilities.

 

And also i saw people complain about warrior "shake it off" skill.. because 2x 6 condi removal is great but again think about downtime that stacks up to more than one minute. So many times you have CD from previous fight. And argument: you can spam shake it off is nonsense. You have to use it very wisely and you can't use it every time mesmer apply blind to you for example. Still it's good skill but not as OP as people think.

 

> @"Vancho.8750" said:

> Before the nerfs on the damage of Full counter Warrior was countering mirage, but after the the nerfs full counter can't do anything and everyone ignores it

> ...

 

Now this.. full counter 75% dmg nerf was just overkill. It's like nerf mirage cloak by 75% so duration to 0.25sec. it's probably not best comparison it would be worse than clasic dodge.

I can't really accept that nerf.. maybe 25% nerf max 33% - even there it's a lot. Or give warrior somethink in return. Like I for example already mentioned dagger off hand with proper aoe damage skill. Or remove/lower initial delay for gab closers.. or fix/unroot one-hand sword burst skill.. All of these changes were mentioned in warrior sub-forum and even more and i think it would be great.

 

 

So...

Nothing much new just a some thoughts to calm situation here. Because it went really wrong and i hope it's over.

 

Kitty its long post.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"Luna.6203"

Lol at the pictures. You matched them down to the poses/arm positions :smile:

 

Thanks for understanding. I do sympathize with your experience. I agree that due to their design concept, Mesmers can be annoying if not challenging opponents. Mesmer is still a strong class even today. Just not necessarily OP. I don't think most honest Mesmer mains cry that Mesmer gets nerfed, but that they're the wrong nerfs, or that the community complaints about the wrong things, or has double standards when it comes to issues with other classes.

 

The latest Mesmer nerfs really hit condi damage as well as sustain for all builds. It's still early to tell, but the new meta may be filtering out the FOTM Mesmer players now that its a bit harder to play. Meaning those that remain are probably decent. But that can give off the wrong impression that "Mesmer is still OP." Time will tell.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Just going to comment on your comparison, the mc cut to 0.75 was already overkill. Ambushes and most skills are not covered entirely by mc anymore, the whole premise of attacking while dodging, the primary mechanic of mirage, is already dead.

So if you want to compare full counter you can compare it to the current version of mirage cloak.

[Burnfall.9573]

(**Please!** do not blame or personally attack Mesmers players including Mesmer video streamers for being given a bad toxic design profession--they're are not to be ever)

 

:) ok now, enjoy ((until Mesmer are reworked/redesigned, their toxicity will continue to strip any chance of health to the balance of the game))

**Including their toxic collaborator- Thief**

 

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lmao here’s burny on his ever hyperbolic vendetta quest against thieves and mesmers :)

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

WvW vid in PvP subforum?

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> WvW vid in PvP subforum?

 

The Truth is not limited to only one subforum

[apharma.3741]

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> @"Luna.6203"

> Lol at the pictures. You matched them down to the poses/arm positions :smile:

>

> Thanks for understanding. I do sympathize with your experience. I agree that due to their design concept, Mesmers can be annoying if not challenging opponents. Mesmer is still a strong class even today. Just not necessarily OP. I don't think most honest Mesmer mains cry that Mesmer gets nerfed, but that they're the wrong nerfs, or that the community complaints about the wrong things, or has double standards when it comes to issues with other classes.

>

> The latest Mesmer nerfs really hit condi damage as well as sustain for all builds. It's still early to tell, but the new meta may be filtering out the FOTM Mesmer players now that its a bit harder to play. Meaning those that remain are probably decent. But that can give off the wrong impression that "Mesmer is still OP." Time will tell.

 

Yep pretty much this. I proposed to a member of "the knowledgeable community" as they seem to title themselves that confusion itself is not too strong and punishes the impatient. They then proceeded to disprove it by talking about constant application of confusion with torment shutting down the ability to play.

 

Now to anyone with any analytical skills they would see that this person described 3 separate aspects, confusion as a mechanic, confusion application and confusion as part of the wider class balance and condition builds.

 

Confusion as a mechanic is fine, it does just shy of 200 damage per stack per skill activation (on a 1400 condition build) but generally lasts 2-4s and does almost no damage over time. Logically speaking this says that confusion is a burst (short duration) and defensive (punishes for skill activation) condition and should be used/balanced as such.

 

Confusion application to analyse you would have to look at stacks per cool down of the skills as well as cost/benefit of using said skills while appreciating how many skills an enemy would be using in a given time frame. It's not as easy and requires a lot of game, inter class and cross meta damage knowledge but you could see some skills to be concerned about like axes of symmetry, confusing images and Ether Barrage as applying too many stacks per cool down. Also worth mentioning have a look at Crippling Anguish, that may become a meme.

 

Then we have the aspect I've pointed out since the old core PU roamer was around, they combination of confusion and torment in medium to high stacks is very oppressive in a game like this where the counter play to one feeds into a losing spiral of the other. The counter play to confusion is to not use skills unless absolutely necessary and kite, the counter play to torment is to not move around so much, cleanse and use defensive skills. It's very obvious that these two conditions should be sparingly applied together.

 

This last aspect has not been addressed at all and is one of the biggest reasons no-one likes fighting mirage.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> I dislike thieves and mesmers, they should be nerfed, here's a wvw vid

 

Ok

 

Just an aside, on topic:

 

I did a couple of matches recently on warrior vs a handful of mirages. It looks to me on my limited results like the shave to mirror cloak is beginning to separate the individuals just pressing buttons and the individuals that know what they are doing. You can tell when individuals know the frames for avoiding moves and when they're trying to link invulns like they were allowed to last patch. Keeping an eye on it.

 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> > @"Luna.6203"

> > Lol at the pictures. You matched them down to the poses/arm positions :smile:

> >

> > Thanks for understanding. I do sympathize with your experience. I agree that due to their design concept, Mesmers can be annoying if not challenging opponents. Mesmer is still a strong class even today. Just not necessarily OP. I don't think most honest Mesmer mains cry that Mesmer gets nerfed, but that they're the wrong nerfs, or that the community complaints about the wrong things, or has double standards when it comes to issues with other classes.

> >

> > The latest Mesmer nerfs really hit condi damage as well as sustain for all builds. It's still early to tell, but the new meta may be filtering out the FOTM Mesmer players now that its a bit harder to play. Meaning those that remain are probably decent. But that can give off the wrong impression that "Mesmer is still OP." Time will tell.

>

> Yep pretty much this. I proposed to a member of "the knowledgeable community" as they seem to title themselves that confusion itself is not too strong and punishes the impatient. They then proceeded to disprove it by talking about constant application of confusion with torment shutting down the ability to play.

>

> Now to anyone with any analytical skills they would see that this person described 3 separate aspects, confusion as a mechanic, confusion application and confusion as part of the wider class balance and condition builds.

>

> Confusion as a mechanic is fine, it does just shy of 200 damage per stack per skill activation (on a 1400 condition build) but generally lasts 2-4s and does almost no damage over time. Logically speaking this says that confusion is a burst (short duration) and defensive (punishes for skill activation) condition and should be used/balanced as such.

>

> Confusion application to analyse you would have to look at stacks per cool down of the skills as well as cost/benefit of using said skills while appreciating how many skills an enemy would be using in a given time frame. It's not as easy and requires a lot of game, inter class and cross meta damage knowledge but you could see some skills to be concerned about like axes of symmetry, confusing images and Ether Barrage as applying too many stacks per cool down. Also worth mentioning have a look at Crippling Anguish, that may become a meme.

>

> Then we have the aspect I've pointed out since the old core PU roamer was around, they combination of confusion and torment in medium to high stacks is very oppressive in a game like this where the counter play to one feeds into a losing spiral of the other. The counter play to confusion is to not use skills unless absolutely necessary and kite, the counter play to torment is to not move around so much, cleanse and use defensive skills. It's very obvious that these two conditions should be sparingly applied together.

>

> This last aspect has not been addressed at all and is one of the biggest reasons no-one likes fighting mirage.

 

I agree that Confusion as a mechanic is fine. There's much more counterplay available, even with bursts, than with direct damage. I also think it fits Mesmer thematically, and can be thought of as its signature condition.

 

Confusion combined with torment is indeed quite oppressive, tying the recipient's hands and their feet as it were. (Oh dear, did I just make them sound like a control effect, like some member of the "knowledgeable community"?) That aside, it does seem Anet tried to partially address this by cutting Torment 67% on Imaginary Axes.

 

I think you've suggested replacing torment with bleed. I think that's a good suggestion, as it lends towards ramping DOT, which is how condi Mirage should work. Although with one less condition type in play, cleanse may become too effective.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > The problem with most condi mirage nerfs is that it affected power the most and power was already lackluster.

> >

> > I don't think 25% reduction in evade and super speed uptime from Mirage cloak, 33% reduction in axe ambush torment application, 75% increase to the illusionary ambush cooldown, and nerfs to confusion stacks and duration from Cry of Pain and Ineptitude impacted power more than condi. Since the majority of condi mirage pressure comes from confusion stacking and axe torment application, the impact on their ability to apply that overwhelming pressure while simultaneously evading damage has been significantly reduced.

> >

> > I think that's why we've seen a drastic reduction in "OMG NERF IT NOW BEFORE IT DESTROYS THE GAME!" threads since the patch. For skilled players these nerfs are perfectly manageable. They'll certainly have an impact, but I think where it hurts most is for those less-skilled mirage players who "spam 1 and dodge" to win. With the reduced pressure and increased vulnerability, it's no longer so easy to simply overwhelm opponents with condi application while spamming dodge. Such players now run the very real risk of overextending and losing the fight when they do this. Which is good, because that's how every other class plays.

> >

> >

>

> MC cut, BF, vigor nerf on both duel and mirage, IA, jaunt?

 

Also domination trait line nerfs

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > > The problem with most condi mirage nerfs is that it affected power the most and power was already lackluster.

> > >

> > > I don't think 25% reduction in evade and super speed uptime from Mirage cloak, 33% reduction in axe ambush torment application, 75% increase to the illusionary ambush cooldown, and nerfs to confusion stacks and duration from Cry of Pain and Ineptitude impacted power more than condi. Since the majority of condi mirage pressure comes from confusion stacking and axe torment application, the impact on their ability to apply that overwhelming pressure while simultaneously evading damage has been significantly reduced.

> > >

> > > I think that's why we've seen a drastic reduction in "OMG NERF IT NOW BEFORE IT DESTROYS THE GAME!" threads since the patch. For skilled players these nerfs are perfectly manageable. They'll certainly have an impact, but I think where it hurts most is for those less-skilled mirage players who "spam 1 and dodge" to win. With the reduced pressure and increased vulnerability, it's no longer so easy to simply overwhelm opponents with condi application while spamming dodge. Such players now run the very real risk of overextending and losing the fight when they do this. Which is good, because that's how every other class plays.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > MC cut, BF, vigor nerf on both duel and mirage, IA, jaunt?

>

> Also domination trait line nerfs

 

Was only counting stuff that were aimed at condi mirage and power suffered more from it.

[Rix.8510]

With equal skill a warrior will never beat chaos staff/axe mirage. Whoever, that one is the only real one bad matchup you have against another sidenoder soo i don't see it as that much of a problem.Would be better to put imput into how to balance mesmer in general. @"Luna.6203"

[Luna.6203]

Okay there is video of first duel with Odik.4587 as i promised.

 

*

 

It's warrior vs warrior. He won and he is pretty good i admit that.

 

I made cut after 1st duel. I have about one and half hour of duels.

If you want i can upload about 3 more duels with odik with pretty must same result and firebrand - win,core guild - lost,thief - some win most of lost,weaver - lost and holo - win.

But i don't think it would be somehow relevant and i suppose nobody cares.

 

I just wanted to fulfill promise i made. So there you go.

 

[Rix.8510]

> @"Luna.6203" said:

> Okay there video of first duel with Odik.4587 as i promised.

>

> [https://youtube.com/watch?v=0U2NLo1HrwQ&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2NLo1HrwQ&feature=youtu.be "https://youtube.com/watch?v=0U2NLo1HrwQ&feature=youtu.be")

>

> It's warrior vs warrior. He won and he is pretty good i admit that.

>

> I made cut after 1st duel. I have about one and half hour of duels.

> If you want i can upload about 3 more duels with odik with pretty must same result and firebrand - win,core guild - lost,thief - some win most of lost,weaver - lost and holo - win.

> But i don't think it would be somehow relevant and i suppose nobody cares.

>

> I just wanted to fulfill promise i made. So there you go.

>

 

Is that the build you usually run?

[Tycura.1982]

Now I might be crazy but isn't that the point? That some classes beat others by default. Like how thief struggles with warrior? ?

[Luna.6203]

> @"Rix.8510" said:

> > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > Okay there video of first duel with Odik.4587 as i promised.

> >

> > [https://youtube.com/watch?v=0U2NLo1HrwQ&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U2NLo1HrwQ&feature=youtu.be "https://youtube.com/watch?v=0U2NLo1HrwQ&feature=youtu.be")

> >

> > It's warrior vs warrior. He won and he is pretty good i admit that.

> >

> > I made cut after 1st duel. I have about one and half hour of duels.

> > If you want i can upload about 3 more duels with odik with pretty must same result and firebrand - win,core guild - lost,thief - some win most of lost,weaver - lost and holo - win.

> > But i don't think it would be somehow relevant and i suppose nobody cares.

> >

> > I just wanted to fulfill promise i made. So there you go.

> >

>

> Is that the build you usually run?

 

Pretty much this: [https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_GS/Dagger](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_GS/Dagger "https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_GS/Dagger")

 

> @"Tycura.1982" said:

> Now I might be crazy but isn't that the point? That some classes beat others by default. Like how thief struggles with warrior? ?

 

Like rock/scissors/paper ? I hope not. But maybe i'm wrong. ?

[Tycura.1982]

 

> > @"Tycura.1982" said:

> > Now I might be crazy but isn't that the point? That some classes beat others by default. Like how thief struggles with warrior? ?

>

> Like rock/scissors/paper ? I hope not. But maybe i'm wrong. ?

 

That's the curse of our class. We've got mostly single target skills with big tells and windups with very little flashy crap to obscure it. By the design of mesmer they're our direct counter. But thief eats Chrono. We'll call him scissors because he's edgy.

And I think it goes without saying what we are. https://www.kissradio.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2018/11/rock.jpg

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I know Odik since Hot was released or perhaps a little more time. And he's the kind of guy that picks up the professions styles of playing pretty quickly, so first of all you shouldn't feel bad that you lost.

Secondly if he says he rekts condi mirage with war or whatever, he's telling the truth.

[lightstalker.1498]

Good cheese against cheese strugg;ling brings tears to no one