You know what really GRINDS MY GEARS?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

probably the most annoying thing about daggerstorm is that its a guaranteed kill when timed right and theres nothing you can do about it.

[hugo.4705]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

>

> 5 [Healing Turret](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Turret "Healing Turret"):

>

> Since core Guild Wars 2 Healing Turret has been the single most overloaded healing skill in the game. Alongside literally top healing, it also provides a field of which Engineers of all specs have a wealth of ways to either blast and/or leap into along with very low cooldown. The original excuse from Engineers was that because it required so much more skills to use as it required you double tapping the heal skill to both deploy it and to over charge it, it deserved to be more rewarding because double tapping a keybind is so much more skill intensive than just tapping it once. Now that turrets automatically overcharge that's longer true. It's time to bring Healing Turret inline with other healing skills.

>

> 9 [Gyros are Unpredictable and Unreadable](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gyro "Gyros are Unpredictable and Unreadable").

>

> Post rework all gyros are problematic. They either have too little wind up, no wind up at all, and aside from a couple of them you cannot see what they're doing in the heat of battle. Heal Gyro and Purgy Gyro in particular need active effects on the Scrapper's status bar, similar to Boonbeast and Warrior Stances or other active effects like False Oasis and Troll Unguent so players can see exactly what effects the scrapper has active on themselves, letting them know "Oh hey he's healing I should wait to use my bit damage dealing attacks until after he's finished healing. And I should hit him wit poison too to cancel out some of the healing." and "Oh hey he's using purge gyro I should hold off on damage dealing conditions until its done then move in to strike." Instead right now they're almost completely unreadable.

>

> 15 [Elementalist in general](https://d3b4yo2b5lbfy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/wallpapers/ElementalistMaleWallpaper-1920x1200.jpg "Elementalist in general").

> I'm personally so disappointed in SD Weaver. Weaver was a specialization I was crazy excited for, a chance for Guild Wars 2 to have a Magic Knight archetype. The type of character that wields a sword in one hand and throws out powerful explosive spells in the other. But sword ended up just being a boring weapon to play in both PvE and PvP and it's equally boring to play against. Elementalist in its current state just leaves PvP in general really devoid of interesting fun archetypes to play and fight against. We're all here playing the PvP game mode of a Swords and Sorcery Role Playing Game. And where is the sorcery? When you think fantasy game, one of the first thing that comes to mind is the mage / wizard, super squishy standing behind the front lines and chucking huge fireballs raining, just raining AoE death on his enemies. But that archetype doesn't exist in Guild Wars 2. Like at all. I personally think its time for DPS elementalists to get some sort of Righteous Instincts Core Guardian type of temporary bandaid so they can run Valkyrie amulet, having the benefit of great power, good ferocity and vitality while having great crit chance through traits. Something carefully thought out so they can run more vitality and toughness amulets and gain solid damage with just a bit more sturdiness to get them through the day but absolutely _NOT_ help in their self healing and sustain and not just give builds like SD Weaver and Support Tempest more free damage on top of their very high ability to just reset the fight through self sustain.

>

> I definitely don't want sword seeing buffs until its reworked into an actually interesting weapon to play and play against. But Scepter Fresh Air Weaver should absolutely be looked into for bringing up to par with other +1 burst roamers like Sic Em Soulbeast and Power Greatsword Mirage and staff should be looked at how it can fulfill the missing class fantasy niche Guild Wars 2's PvP is really lacking.

>

> 16 [Condition Damage in general is weak](https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71%2Ba9HzSiBL._SX425_.jpg "Condition Damage in general is weak").

> Yes, really.

>

> Condition builds have at this point completely fallen behind power builds both in effectiveness and stated purpose because of the power creep of condition cleanse builds in general. With Condition Mirage more or less out of the meta, and scourge being bad for ranked in general, there really aren't any conditions build left anymore. Power builds will both do more damage more quickly and do more damage over longer fights. Lets compare necromancer who have typically struggled with getting ganked by condition builds like condition mirage:.

>

 

Just gonna reply on the ones where I'm concerned (playing the spec): btw, speaking in pve.

5: I dunno WHO asked to remove overcharged skills but it's a very bad idea, and I urge and implore Anet to re-add them. Double-tapping is nothing, and made the class way far more fun than now: I just feel like turrets are blank, I always used turrets, never kits. Won several pvp matches with it (back in 2013-2014 when I used to play the mode)

 

9: Gonna agree kinda unpredictable, but isn't it the case with thieves too? That what I like about scrapper, finally it's strong again, but unpredictable. Whereas gyros are okay, they should fix the associated weapon (hammer) with at least 1 trait reducing hammer skills recharge by 20%.

 

15: Too, I find my sword/dagger weaver boring, but not gonna complain, she's strong, dealing correct damages but feel like not having enough sustainability/protection, maybe arcanes could give protection when used, don't know... but the glyphs are way far better than druid ones, staff druid just feel like a dead spec for me, no great damages, no real condis, meh. worst than ele.

 

16: Here disagree, depend of the class, can affirm that condi damages are great for my axe-axe ranger with all the corresponding traits, same for my weaver, very helpful.

But for my Holo and Renegade I only use power.

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > >

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm")

> > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well.

> > > >

> > > > I feel like this skill is perfectly in line with what an ultimate should be. Also, considering Improvisation isn't reliable it's hardly a problem. If you get caught by back-to-back dagger storms that's some bad luck on top of not managing your defensive cd's well. With all the blocks, invulns, blinks, and evades other professions have it shouldn't be hard to avoid two dagger storms.

> > >

> > > It's still a bit strong though. Or maybe other profession's elite skills need a bit more as compensation. I mean, Mesmer has moa, which is pretty strong but a long cast time and a long cooldown. Warrior has rampage, but they still take quite a bit of damage during it. Ele's elites are kind of a joke outside of the tornado, which engi's also get.

> > >

> > > I agree that it's what an elite should feel like, but I don't think the other professions have something quite that strong. Guardian invuln that recharges virtues is kind of cool I guess. Necro plague is pretty good but not great enough to run over some of the others. Lich form feels like an elite, but I personally find it kind of hard to use and the targeting system and abilities a little undertuned.

> > >

> > > Daggerstorm is definitely one of the better elites out there, all that damage plus an evade? And you're not rooted in place? And it's cooldown can be reduced? Thankfully thief is hard enough to play generally that it kind of evens out.

> >

> > I don't mind Dagger Storm on it's own that much. My problem is the randomness Improvisation introduces into the game, potentially giving such a powerful elite skill 2x uses back to back, and potentially 3x uses over the course a 20 second fight. And also now that it's an Evade it doesn't need the projectiles which you can never really count for. It's fine enough on it's own as a Point Blank Area of Effect Evade.

>

> No... it needs the projectiles.

>

> Because whats going to happen is that it becomes a regular spin to win move that deals insane damage without the requirement of being outnumbered.

 

Now that it evades it is this, already, right now, and when you try to kite away you can expect to get pelted with projectiles as you go. Maybe not "insane" damage but high damage very comfortably with the safety of evading.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

The same ones that complained about attacking while evading on mirage defending ds is priceless. Thank you for the laugh o/

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > >

> > >

> > > 11 [bulls Charge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge "Bulls Charge")

> > > As a utility it kind of does everything. It has great movement for both engaging, chasing, disengaging, and roaming across the map. It does excellent damage. Its a 3 second knockdown. It's a combo finisher. It evades. The way Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush just did too much on too little of a cooldown, Bull's Charge should have to do like 2 of the four things it currently does. Pick them.

> > > 13 [Reckless Dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge "Reckless Dodge")

> > > Warriors literally refuse to believe me when I tell them this easily crits for 3k in SPvP, unboosted by might and damage modifies like Peak Performance, even when I post screenshots of exactly that. And it's unblockable. I genuinely can't believe warriors were up in arms over 4k maximum potential Imaginary Axes and Chaos Vortexes when their own dodges do this and unblockable as well. It's not breaking the game, but to me its just funny in like a "WHY????" sort of way.

> > >

> >

> > First off yes a lot of people called for nerfs to Axes of Symmetry. I never saw them as an issue compared to some specific other things. Second...if they removed any of the things that Bull's Charge did then it would go down into the gutter. Remove the Movement? Becomes a second or *worse* Shield 4 due to the longer cast time. Remove the Evade? It becomes a glorified Rush with a CC that you'll just get CC'd during (smart players will CC you during Rush). Remove the CC? It just becomes a Rush with an Evade which is redundant and *you* would still complain about it.

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > * Engineer's turret is fine. If anything, it needs potentially a small shave on its initial heal. That's all.

> > Both Holosmiths and Scrappers have access to too much resustain. Not too many classes can wring almost 9k healing from their heal skill with zero investment in healing power. 2 leaps and exploding the turret which is a free blast 8,980 healing with zero healing power investment and I'm not even counting the regeneration. And 2x leaps, or a leap and another blast are pretty easy to come by for a meta holosmith.

>

> The entire cycle for a full Healing Turret heal (HT + Overcharge + Blast (detonate) + Blast/leap + leap) takes around 4 or 5 seconds without quickness. With quickness it's about 2-3 second. That's an extremely long healing rotation, which is wide open to CC, unless the holo has burned their elixir U to save themselves, or wastes a leap or blast for stability from corona burst.

 

Yeah, thankfully we don't have to worry about Meta Holosmith also having an oddly over tuned 6 second long stealth skill on a 31 second cooldown traited to ensure they can do this every single time...

 


 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> The same ones that complained about attacking while evading on mirage defending ds is priceless. Thank you for the laugh o/

 

Couple things.

 

Theres a difference between locking someone into a specific attack and animation while they are invuln, and being able to use any attack or skill on your hotbar while invuln in addition to being able to invuln at any time as long as you have endurance. Those situations both have different weights in combat.

 

That being said, I don't think any thief is going to die or give up DS if you pull the projectiles off. It's used as an evade to avoid bruteforcing like magebane tether or detection pulse or sic-em without having to disengage/burn all your evades because someone pressed one button, and the projectile reflect IMO is good enough for that. I'd be fine if the cripple was moved to the spin, or applied to projectiles that it reflected.

 

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> probably the most annoying thing about daggerstorm is that its a guaranteed kill when timed right and theres nothing you can do about it.

 

Elaborate.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > 11 [bulls Charge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge "Bulls Charge")

> > > > As a utility it kind of does everything. It has great movement for both engaging, chasing, disengaging, and roaming across the map. It does excellent damage. Its a 3 second knockdown. It's a combo finisher. It evades. The way Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush just did too much on too little of a cooldown, Bull's Charge should have to do like 2 of the four things it currently does. Pick them.

> > > > 13 [Reckless Dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge "Reckless Dodge")

> > > > Warriors literally refuse to believe me when I tell them this easily crits for 3k in SPvP, unboosted by might and damage modifies like Peak Performance, even when I post screenshots of exactly that. And it's unblockable. I genuinely can't believe warriors were up in arms over 4k maximum potential Imaginary Axes and Chaos Vortexes when their own dodges do this and unblockable as well. It's not breaking the game, but to me its just funny in like a "WHY????" sort of way.

> > > >

> > >

> > > First off yes a lot of people called for nerfs to Axes of Symmetry. I never saw them as an issue compared to some specific other things. Second...if they removed any of the things that Bull's Charge did then it would go down into the gutter. Remove the Movement? Becomes a second or *worse* Shield 4 due to the longer cast time. Remove the Evade? It becomes a glorified Rush with a CC that you'll just get CC'd during (smart players will CC you during Rush). Remove the CC? It just becomes a Rush with an Evade which is redundant and *you* would still complain about it.

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > * Engineer's turret is fine. If anything, it needs potentially a small shave on its initial heal. That's all.

> > > Both Holosmiths and Scrappers have access to too much resustain. Not too many classes can wring almost 9k healing from their heal skill with zero investment in healing power. 2 leaps and exploding the turret which is a free blast 8,980 healing with zero healing power investment and I'm not even counting the regeneration. And 2x leaps, or a leap and another blast are pretty easy to come by for a meta holosmith.

> >

> > The entire cycle for a full Healing Turret heal (HT + Overcharge + Blast (detonate) + Blast/leap + leap) takes around 4 or 5 seconds without quickness. With quickness it's about 2-3 second. That's an extremely long healing rotation, which is wide open to CC, unless the holo has burned their elixir U to save themselves, or wastes a leap or blast for stability from corona burst.

>

> Yeah, thankfully we don't have to worry about Meta Holosmith also having an oddly over tuned 6 second long stealth skill on a 31 second cooldown traited to ensure they can do this every single time...

>

> 

>

 

I presume you're specifically referring to [this build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "this build").

 

I suppose you could do that, but you'd be burning your only disengage skill to heal (and the turret is usually a giveaway where you are). A smarter choice would be using Photon Wall to block while you heal, if your goal is to continue the fight. If you're trying to run away, you'd only be healing to remove any impairment skills and then get OOC.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > 11 [bulls Charge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge "Bulls Charge")

> > > > > As a utility it kind of does everything. It has great movement for both engaging, chasing, disengaging, and roaming across the map. It does excellent damage. Its a 3 second knockdown. It's a combo finisher. It evades. The way Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush just did too much on too little of a cooldown, Bull's Charge should have to do like 2 of the four things it currently does. Pick them.

> > > > > 13 [Reckless Dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge "Reckless Dodge")

> > > > > Warriors literally refuse to believe me when I tell them this easily crits for 3k in SPvP, unboosted by might and damage modifies like Peak Performance, even when I post screenshots of exactly that. And it's unblockable. I genuinely can't believe warriors were up in arms over 4k maximum potential Imaginary Axes and Chaos Vortexes when their own dodges do this and unblockable as well. It's not breaking the game, but to me its just funny in like a "WHY????" sort of way.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > First off yes a lot of people called for nerfs to Axes of Symmetry. I never saw them as an issue compared to some specific other things. Second...if they removed any of the things that Bull's Charge did then it would go down into the gutter. Remove the Movement? Becomes a second or *worse* Shield 4 due to the longer cast time. Remove the Evade? It becomes a glorified Rush with a CC that you'll just get CC'd during (smart players will CC you during Rush). Remove the CC? It just becomes a Rush with an Evade which is redundant and *you* would still complain about it.

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > * Engineer's turret is fine. If anything, it needs potentially a small shave on its initial heal. That's all.

> > > > Both Holosmiths and Scrappers have access to too much resustain. Not too many classes can wring almost 9k healing from their heal skill with zero investment in healing power. 2 leaps and exploding the turret which is a free blast 8,980 healing with zero healing power investment and I'm not even counting the regeneration. And 2x leaps, or a leap and another blast are pretty easy to come by for a meta holosmith.

> > >

> > > The entire cycle for a full Healing Turret heal (HT + Overcharge + Blast (detonate) + Blast/leap + leap) takes around 4 or 5 seconds without quickness. With quickness it's about 2-3 second. That's an extremely long healing rotation, which is wide open to CC, unless the holo has burned their elixir U to save themselves, or wastes a leap or blast for stability from corona burst.

> >

> > Yeah, thankfully we don't have to worry about Meta Holosmith also having an oddly over tuned 6 second long stealth skill on a 31 second cooldown traited to ensure they can do this every single time...

> >

> > 

> >

>

> I presume you're specifically referring to [this build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "this build").

>

> I suppose you could do that, but you'd be burning your only disengage skill to heal (and the turret is usually a giveaway where you are). A smarter choice would be using Photon Wall to block while you heal, if your goal is to continue the fight. If you're trying to run away, you'd only be healing to remove any impairment skills and then get OOC.

 

"Only disengage skill?"

 

Rocket Boots is at least as popular of a choice as Kinetic Battery giving engineers 2x 1200 range leaps, even without that rifle 5 is a 800 range leap, plus Photon Forge 2 is a 600 range leap that provides swiftness on a 2 second cooldown making waaaaaay more spammable than Mirage Sword Ambush ever was and we both know how much people complain about that. Not to mention the amount of CC they can throw before they disengage as well as the fact that anyone chasing is under threat of being explosively counter pressured at the drop of a hat.

 

Engineer's cup runneth over with options for disengaging.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 11 [bulls Charge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge "Bulls Charge")

> > > > > > As a utility it kind of does everything. It has great movement for both engaging, chasing, disengaging, and roaming across the map. It does excellent damage. Its a 3 second knockdown. It's a combo finisher. It evades. The way Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush just did too much on too little of a cooldown, Bull's Charge should have to do like 2 of the four things it currently does. Pick them.

> > > > > > 13 [Reckless Dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge "Reckless Dodge")

> > > > > > Warriors literally refuse to believe me when I tell them this easily crits for 3k in SPvP, unboosted by might and damage modifies like Peak Performance, even when I post screenshots of exactly that. And it's unblockable. I genuinely can't believe warriors were up in arms over 4k maximum potential Imaginary Axes and Chaos Vortexes when their own dodges do this and unblockable as well. It's not breaking the game, but to me its just funny in like a "WHY????" sort of way.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > First off yes a lot of people called for nerfs to Axes of Symmetry. I never saw them as an issue compared to some specific other things. Second...if they removed any of the things that Bull's Charge did then it would go down into the gutter. Remove the Movement? Becomes a second or *worse* Shield 4 due to the longer cast time. Remove the Evade? It becomes a glorified Rush with a CC that you'll just get CC'd during (smart players will CC you during Rush). Remove the CC? It just becomes a Rush with an Evade which is redundant and *you* would still complain about it.

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > * Engineer's turret is fine. If anything, it needs potentially a small shave on its initial heal. That's all.

> > > > > Both Holosmiths and Scrappers have access to too much resustain. Not too many classes can wring almost 9k healing from their heal skill with zero investment in healing power. 2 leaps and exploding the turret which is a free blast 8,980 healing with zero healing power investment and I'm not even counting the regeneration. And 2x leaps, or a leap and another blast are pretty easy to come by for a meta holosmith.

> > > >

> > > > The entire cycle for a full Healing Turret heal (HT + Overcharge + Blast (detonate) + Blast/leap + leap) takes around 4 or 5 seconds without quickness. With quickness it's about 2-3 second. That's an extremely long healing rotation, which is wide open to CC, unless the holo has burned their elixir U to save themselves, or wastes a leap or blast for stability from corona burst.

> > >

> > > Yeah, thankfully we don't have to worry about Meta Holosmith also having an oddly over tuned 6 second long stealth skill on a 31 second cooldown traited to ensure they can do this every single time...

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > I presume you're specifically referring to [this build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "this build").

> >

> > I suppose you could do that, but you'd be burning your only disengage skill to heal (and the turret is usually a giveaway where you are). A smarter choice would be using Photon Wall to block while you heal, if your goal is to continue the fight. If you're trying to run away, you'd only be healing to remove any impairment skills and then get OOC.

>

> "Only disengage skill?"

>

> Rocket Boots is at least as popular of a choice as Kinetic Battery giving engineers 2x 1200 range leaps, even without that rifle 5 is a 800 range leap, plus Photon Forge 2 is a 600 range leap that provides swiftness on a 2 second cooldown making waaaaaay more spammable than Mirage Sword Ambush ever was and we both know how much people complain about that. Not to mention the amount of CC they can throw before they disengage as well as the fact that anyone chasing is under threat of being explosively counter pressured at the drop of a hat.

>

> Engineer's cup runneth over with options for disengaging.

 

lol

 

What build are you referring to? I can cite any number of skills as being "OP" on mesmer/mirage, but without the context of a build that they fit into, it's pointless gibbering. If you're talking about the build that uses gadgeteer and rocket boots, it doesn't use healing turret, [it uses AED](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Gadget_Holo "it uses AED"). So your point about healing turret doesn't even apply there.

 

Additionally, a few clarifications:

 

* Rifle 5 is an 800 range leap, but it is interruptable, not a teleport, and has a negligible amount of verticality to it.

* Holo Leap is a 450 range leap, not 600. This is because the tooltip is listing the strike range, not the movement range. The strike itself is 150 units away, and the leap is 450 units, thus the tooltip reads 600.

* None of engineer's disengage/mobility skills feature a teleport or evade frames (you can interrupt rocket boots/jump shot). We have to travel the long way around obstacles. Even a short teleport like jaunt is significantly more potent given that it can travel up and over obstacles.

 

Wait, CC for disengage? The only CC that I see as being useful for disengage is overcharged shot because of the knockback and duration. All other CC's are too short to be useful for disengaging. On the build I use specifically, I do use thumper turret for disengage, but that's only because it fits my build, and it has an extremely long cooldown.

 

------

 

Anyway, this digresses from your point about healing turret. Throw Elixir S is largely used for engage/disengage... using it for a heal is often wasteful when there are [other skills that would be better suited for the task](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Wall "other skills that would be better suited for the task").

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 11 [bulls Charge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bull%27s_Charge "Bulls Charge")

> > > > > > > As a utility it kind of does everything. It has great movement for both engaging, chasing, disengaging, and roaming across the map. It does excellent damage. Its a 3 second knockdown. It's a combo finisher. It evades. The way Axes of Symmetry and Illusionary Ambush just did too much on too little of a cooldown, Bull's Charge should have to do like 2 of the four things it currently does. Pick them.

> > > > > > > 13 [Reckless Dodge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reckless_Dodge "Reckless Dodge")

> > > > > > > Warriors literally refuse to believe me when I tell them this easily crits for 3k in SPvP, unboosted by might and damage modifies like Peak Performance, even when I post screenshots of exactly that. And it's unblockable. I genuinely can't believe warriors were up in arms over 4k maximum potential Imaginary Axes and Chaos Vortexes when their own dodges do this and unblockable as well. It's not breaking the game, but to me its just funny in like a "WHY????" sort of way.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First off yes a lot of people called for nerfs to Axes of Symmetry. I never saw them as an issue compared to some specific other things. Second...if they removed any of the things that Bull's Charge did then it would go down into the gutter. Remove the Movement? Becomes a second or *worse* Shield 4 due to the longer cast time. Remove the Evade? It becomes a glorified Rush with a CC that you'll just get CC'd during (smart players will CC you during Rush). Remove the CC? It just becomes a Rush with an Evade which is redundant and *you* would still complain about it.

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > * Engineer's turret is fine. If anything, it needs potentially a small shave on its initial heal. That's all.

> > > > > > Both Holosmiths and Scrappers have access to too much resustain. Not too many classes can wring almost 9k healing from their heal skill with zero investment in healing power. 2 leaps and exploding the turret which is a free blast 8,980 healing with zero healing power investment and I'm not even counting the regeneration. And 2x leaps, or a leap and another blast are pretty easy to come by for a meta holosmith.

> > > > >

> > > > > The entire cycle for a full Healing Turret heal (HT + Overcharge + Blast (detonate) + Blast/leap + leap) takes around 4 or 5 seconds without quickness. With quickness it's about 2-3 second. That's an extremely long healing rotation, which is wide open to CC, unless the holo has burned their elixir U to save themselves, or wastes a leap or blast for stability from corona burst.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah, thankfully we don't have to worry about Meta Holosmith also having an oddly over tuned 6 second long stealth skill on a 31 second cooldown traited to ensure they can do this every single time...

> > > >

> > > > 

> > > >

> > >

> > > I presume you're specifically referring to [this build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "this build").

> > >

> > > I suppose you could do that, but you'd be burning your only disengage skill to heal (and the turret is usually a giveaway where you are). A smarter choice would be using Photon Wall to block while you heal, if your goal is to continue the fight. If you're trying to run away, you'd only be healing to remove any impairment skills and then get OOC.

> >

> > "Only disengage skill?"

> >

> > Rocket Boots is at least as popular of a choice as Kinetic Battery giving engineers 2x 1200 range leaps, even without that rifle 5 is a 800 range leap, plus Photon Forge 2 is a 600 range leap that provides swiftness on a 2 second cooldown making waaaaaay more spammable than Mirage Sword Ambush ever was and we both know how much people complain about that. Not to mention the amount of CC they can throw before they disengage as well as the fact that anyone chasing is under threat of being explosively counter pressured at the drop of a hat.

> >

> > Engineer's cup runneth over with options for disengaging.

>

> lol

>

> What build are you referring to?

 

https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/engineer/

 

It's basically the same build but it runs the rocket boots trait and rocket boots utility to become a more effective roamer and sacrificing a bit of 1v1 potential. Literally just swaps one trait and one utility. It's pretty common to see in ranked.

 

> I can cite any number of skills as being "OP" on mesmer/mirage, but without the context of a build that they fit into, it's pointless gibbering. If you're talking about the build that uses gadgeteer and rocket boots, it doesn't use healing turret, [it uses AED](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Gadget_Holo "it uses AED"). So your point about healing turret doesn't even apply there.

 

AED isn't unheard but, but the majority in my experience still run healing turret. Anecdotal evidence to be sure but I think it's still about a 70-30 split between the two with heal turret favored.

 

>

> Additionally, a few clarifications:

>

> * Rifle 5 is an 800 range leap, but it is interruptable, not a teleport, and has a negligible amount of verticality to it.

 

800 range leap is lots of range on a disengage, especially one that happens so fast. Mirage Sword Ambush is also interruptable. People still complain about that to this day.

 

> * Holo Leap is a 450 range leap, not 600. This is because the tooltip is listing the strike range, not the movement range. The strike itself is 150 units away, and the leap is 450 units, thus the tooltip reads 600.

 

Still waaaaay more movement on a 2 second cooldown and with swiftness to boot than Mirage Thrust is on an effective 10 second cooldown. Just simple mathematics.

 

> * None of engineer's disengage/mobility skills feature a teleport or evade frames (you can interrupt rocket boots/jump shot). We have to travel the long way around obstacles. Even a short teleport like jaunt is significantly more potent given that it can travel up and over obstacles.

 

Teleports often have unique strategic opportunities to take advantage of, but at the end of the movement is movement. If you rocket boots away 2x in a row, you're still moving 2400 units and even blink isn't keeping up with you at this point. It limits which directions you can go but not how far you can go.

 

And as far as I'm concerned this is all getting into the weeds anyway. Before the Righteous Instincts nerf Core Guardians got a long with literally the worst disengage in the game just fine. The good ones simply had to be acutely aware of when to start disengaging. Firebrands and necromancers still have to live with jogging alone every step of the way point to point. Revanant have lots of swiftness and super speed, if they have an enemy to Phase Traversal onto they can port to them (But engaging a new enemy unexpectedly is not truly disengaging), but they're still stick hoofing it place to place.

 

Why should core engineers have the single best stealth skill in the game, better than what thieves and mesmers have? Why should scrapper have a skill that's four times better than the best stealth skill with only a 15 second higher cooldown?

 

Why does holosmith need to have top tier disengage on top of top tier ability to resustain to full alongside the top tier damage capabilities the spec was designed for?

 

Revenant, scourge and reaper only get top tier damage. Thieves only get top tier mobility. Even mesmers who are historically great at 1v1 as well as almost as good as thieves in mobility are poor in terms of team fight damage. Warriors are also historically not great at team fights and they're in a similar position as mesmers. Holosmith has consistently, balance patch after balance patch ,been A Tier great at literally every role in conquest. They're great on the side nodes, they're great roaming point to point, they're great as team fight damage and unlike scourge and revenant they're great at that team fight damage regardless of whether they have support or not.

 

> Wait, CC for disengage? The only CC that I see as being useful for disengage is overcharged shot because of the knockback and duration. All other CC's are too short to be useful for disengaging.

 

Uhhhh... yeah. The second the holosmith is 2v1 they'll always try to Holographic Shockwave as soon as possible to slow the enemy while they . That's not even talking about prot holos who will shield 5 to stun an enemy and kite away when they need to disengage.

 

>

> ------

>

> Anyway, this digresses from your point about healing turret. Throw Elixir S is largely used for engage/disengage... using it for a heal is often wasteful when there are [other skills that would be better suited for the task](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Photon_Wall "other skills that would be better suited for the task").

 

If you don't see the benefit of being able to resustaining to full health without disengaging to the point of breaking combat and after a handful of seconds of instead of 20+ I really do not know what to tell you. Because I have fought my fair share of plat 3 holos. And guess what I see them do.

 

Toss Elixir S is 6 seconds of stealth on a 30 second cooldown. If you use it to heal up to full and continue the fight it's on a short enough cooldown to be up again if you need to disengage to resustain again, or if you actually need to disengage.

[Chaith.8256]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> 800 range leap is lots of range on a disengage, especially one that happens so fast. Mirage Sword Ambush is also interruptable. People still complain about that to this day.

 

It's interruptable at the point of impact, but you're covered by a Mirage cloak so to say it's also as interruptable is biased.

 

> Still waaaaay more movement on a 2 second cooldown and with swiftness to boot than Mirage Thrust is on an effective 10 second cooldown. Just simple mathematics.

 

Your mathematics put Holo leap being used every 2 seconds to infinity without taking the heat mechanic into account, but you claim Mirage Thrust is on an effective 10 second cooldown. I'm guessing because every 10s you regenerate a dodge, right? Not taking into account vigor, energy sigils, adventure runes, mirage mirrors. Obvious bias.

 

I want no part in the Holo vs. Mirage squabble but just feeling very free to point out when you do direct comparisons of abilities out of context, and you talk about one in hyperbole and the other super downplayed, it's a meme.

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Photon Forge 2 is a 600 range leap that provides swiftness on a 2 second cooldown making waaaaaay more spammable than Mirage Sword Ambush ever was

>

 

By this logic, WSAD running is more powerful than Mirage Thrust (210 per second vs 60 per second). Even role-play walking is better (80/s).

 

I guess Mirage must need a buff, it is clearly less powerful than a naked character walking in a straight line. Necromancer in role-play walk mode officially better at disengaging than Mirage, plz nerf Necro mobility. You can't argue with the maths.

 

Also by this logic, Photon Forge 2 is more powerful than Infiltrators Arrow (450 every 2 seconds vs 900 every 6 seconds). New meta guys, decap holosmith, thief shortbow officially useless.

 

Its aaaaaalmost like comparing raw numbers without taking any consideration of synergising traits/skills, the build as a whole, or how the game-mode operates, very quickly leads you to spouting nonsense. But that can't be right, because maths.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> What's the point of making a balance note if you address the sheer silliness of Unstoppable Union's potential 40% Unblockable uptime, but deliberately make no comment on something like Evasive Mirror's 2s Reflect on a 1.5s cd. What's the potential projectile blocking uptime of that? Yes I'm sure it would be great if Soulbeasts had reduced access to Unblockable but Mirage lowkey kept the Reflect uptime. You're too biased, IMO

>

> Edit: If you say that just because something isn't meta definining, we still need to talk about the silly and unhealthy traits/mechanics, that's fine. We can operate under those parameters if you don't protect your Mirage class because it's not meta defining. Holo isn't meta defining, neither is Longbow SlB, yet that's pretty much the point of your balance note to address.

 

Some of what the guy listed are way lesser evils than what Mesmer does as well. It's astonishing

 

Like it's understandable to talk about things nobody talks about (like Chronomancer actually potentially the next cancer on Mesmer) oh wait... it's not on this thread.

 

I will say that this guy is a lot more tolerable than incissor though.

[Grimjack.8130]

but Weaver isn't bad?

 

(dont buff fresh air, remember ranked pre FA weaver nerf? I remember *spoiler* it wasnt fun.)

[incisorr.9502]

I agree with most things in general

 

condi damage is in a desperate need of a buff because people have two defenses against condi damage and only one defense against power damage. If you play a power ranger and fight against someone who has 1-2 utilities with condi removal and some traits then it's like he's playing with 1-2 utilities and some traits less against you

 

but what really grinds my gears is how revenant is so ludicrously BROKEN and how the game isn't getting HOTFIXED on how incredibly overpowered this class is, i keep being amazed with game devs over the years. In any other game a class as overpowered as this would've been disabled until fixed and severely nerfed, playing a revenant should literally be bannable

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> but Weaver isn't bad?

>

> (dont buff fresh air, remember ranked pre FA weaver nerf? I remember *spoiler* it wasnt fun.)

 

I think people who want FA to be meta/strong should be careful what they wish for, this is a build that relies 90% on instant damage after all.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> but Weaver isn't bad?

>

> (dont buff fresh air, remember ranked pre FA weaver nerf? I remember *spoiler* it wasnt fun.)

 

I loved fighting FA weavers actually. Running into the mid fight, expecting to focus fire the scourge down, then the wave of panic when you see the lightning auto land on you and realizing you made a terrible mistake and that there's actually a higher priority target than the scourge. And exhilaration of turning their burst back around at the. I liked FA weaver way more than I ever cared for Sic Em Soulbeast, probably because FA weaver jumps you at half the range of Sic Em Soulbeast.

[Grimjack.8130]

Just because Soulbeast is more annoying than Fresh Air is or was, doesn't mean it was healthy for the game.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > but Weaver isn't bad?

> >

> > (dont buff fresh air, remember ranked pre FA weaver nerf? I remember *spoiler* it wasnt fun.)

>

> I loved fighting FA weavers actually. Running into the mid fight, expecting to focus fire the scourge down, then the wave of panic when you see the lightning auto land on you and realizing you made a terrible mistake and that there's actually a higher priority target than the scourge. And exhilaration of turning their burst back around at the. I liked FA weaver way more than I ever cared for Sic Em Soulbeast, probably because FA weaver jumps you at half the range of Sic Em Soulbeast.

 

LMAOO Ofc you like fightning FA weavers....who doesn't love easy wins? With distortion-stealth-blocks-evades-teleports..Moa form elite....ofc you love to fight FA weavers, nobody would ever think otherwise

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > but Weaver isn't bad?

> >

> > (dont buff fresh air, remember ranked pre FA weaver nerf? I remember *spoiler* it wasnt fun.)

>

> I think people who want FA to be meta/strong should be careful what they wish for, this is a build that relies 90% on instant damage after all.

 

Stealth burst dmg is ...close to instant already, I don't think anybody is in a position to judge the mediocre burst coming from a FA weaver...lol I am talking like he's viable to start with xd...and anyway you forget to mention that **it's insta burst from a spec that put everything into dmg, has zero sustain, no stealth to run away if burst fail**...if this isn't "healthy£ for game..I have bad news for you...there is much worst out there

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > > but Weaver isn't bad?

> > >

> > > (dont buff fresh air, remember ranked pre FA weaver nerf? I remember *spoiler* it wasnt fun.)

> >

> > I think people who want FA to be meta/strong should be careful what they wish for, this is a build that relies 90% on instant damage after all.

>

> Stealth burst dmg is ...close to instant already, I don't think anybody is in a position to judge the mediocre burst coming from a FA weaver...lol I am talking like he's viable to start with xd...and anyway you forget to mention that **it's insta burst from a spec that put everything into dmg, has zero sustain, no stealth to run away if burst fail**...if this isn't "healthy£ for game..I have bad news for you...there is much worst out there

 

a) Stealth burst is also stupid in my opinion, yes.

b) Of course there is much worse out there, **nobody** is denying that.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm")

> > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well.

> >

> > No.

> > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal.

> > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible.

>

> ???

>

> Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight.

 

The recharge is random. If only dagger storm was used and you steal it doesnt mean it will definitely reset dagger storm. It might roll into something you didn't use up and up end not doing anything. Just FYI.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Derm.4932" said:

> tl;dr nerf all these good sider noders but buff my condi mirage. also take a bad class like weaver or renegade and say it needs buffs because i dont want to look biased pepega

 

Hahah basically. I don't even know why I read this guy's post. He basically writes the same thing all over the forums over and over. All posts basically says Nerf every 1 else buff mirage.

 

It also looks like he loses to thieves alot. Alot of thief hate on all his posts.

 

If only this guy muti-classes. He d realize. The other classes are not as god tier as he thinks.

 

 

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm")

> > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well.

> > >

> > > No.

> > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal.

> > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible.

> >

> > ???

> >

> > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight.

>

> The recharge is random.

 

That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm")

> > > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well.

> > > >

> > > > No.

> > > > Improvisation has 20 second ICD so you never get any CD reset from your reseted Steal.

> > > > I permanently see people claiming that due to SE thieves are getting resets so much. Not true, not possible.

> > >

> > > ???

> > >

> > > Daggerstorm > Steal > Recharge Daggerstorm > 20 seconds later when steal is off cooldown > steal again and dagger storm. That's easily potential daggerstorms within the span of a pretty realistic duration fight.

> >

> > The recharge is random.

>

> That's the _problem_. I actually can't believe how many people are defending pure RNG so vehemently.

 

Sure dagger storm is a bit strong. And if a thief gets it twice. It can very well over power you. Esp of u r mesmer. What with the plasma and all.

 

But really. Aside mesmer. Thief is not good against any other match up. In that context I don't think anything needs to be done about it. Unless they unnerf sword damage then by all means get rid of dagger storm.

 

From your post it really looks like the problems you complain about are specifically skills that kill Condi mirage. From healing turret to sic em.

 

I really believe you should spend time playing all these specs you hate. And realize it's not as easy as you make it out to be. Esp warrior tether lol. I actually think warrior is the most balanced. Except for rampage. Which needs to be tones down abit.