Dahkeus.8243 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 So, the recent balance patch seems to be pushing hard to make staff the go-to weapon for Daredevil since the shorter range swipe favors the all-in brawler style of fighting over the in-and-out style of D/P and such. However, Staff is far from strong enough to perform in that role and I don't think anyone wants to see this weapon buffed in a way that returns it to the vault spamming days. Because of this, I suggest putting some blocks staff skills. This would make a staff thief a more viable bruiser-style fighter while also fitting the theme of a melee staff. How to do this? It'd probably be best done by redesigning at least one skill instead of putting it on something that's already frequently used like Weakening Strike or something rarely used like Debilitating/Dust Strike. If it were me, I'd replace Debilitating Strike with a new attack that moves forward striking, while blocking attacks. Vault already works as a good withdraw with longer range, so Debilitating Arc is relatively redundant. For damage, I'd put the new attack at something lower than Weakening Strike, but add a modifier that increases damage done if the target is weakened or blinded. Initiative cost should be at least 4 if not 5. This would mean that players would be incentivized to use the skill after first casting Weakening or Dust Strike, but wouldn't be incentivized to just spam the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 I was thinking the same thing the other day that at the end of each staff attack, it applies a 1s Block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 A block might make Dust Strike too strong but wherever it could be fit in, change Dust Strike animation along with staff and rifle idle & running animations. A block probably would have to be infused some where that would give it some frequency though like Vincent suggested, especially since Swipe will only get you 600 out if you get trampled by a squad or something. You can't expect to last forever but you should be able to peel with your group or have some control of your disengagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithranArkanere.8957 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 I'd go with projectile blocks on 2 if they are not melee attacks, maybe also on the third attack of the autoattack chain, but only for projectiles. They have already very good melee defense with the blinds and evades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > I was thinking the same thing the other day that at the end of each staff attack, it applies a 1s Block. Wait what. Not sure if serious or not _(not trying to be offensive)_ but I really don't think that's a good thing to implement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 I always thought to myself that Revenants Staff skill _Warding Rift_ should have belonged to the DD staff, most likely instead of Dust Strike which should have been swapped to Rev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > I was thinking the same thing the other day that at the end of each staff attack, it applies a 1s Block. > > Wait what. > Not sure if serious or not _(not trying to be offensive)_ but I really don't think that's a good thing to implement. It's not a suggestion, it's just something I was thinking about. Also, I'm only thinking about adding it to the staff auto-attacks (sorry for failing to clarify it). Like seeing the DD has the deflection at the 3rd strike, having a 1s Block on the first two strikes will give DD staying power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > I was thinking the same thing the other day that at the end of each staff attack, it applies a 1s Block. > > > > Wait what. > > Not sure if serious or not _(not trying to be offensive)_ but I really don't think that's a good thing to implement. > > It's not a suggestion, it's just something I was thinking about. Also, I'm only thinking about adding it to the staff auto-attacks (sorry for failing to clarify it). Like seeing the DD has the deflection at the 3rd strike, having a 1s Block on the first two strikes will give DD staying power. Maybe, just maybe, on one of the AAs, I really think having it on two would result in endless block spam. One sec block on the 2nd is enough time to process through the last AA skill and thus basically have Block permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ensign.2189 Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 Look I know staff gets a bad rap because Vault spam destroys silver, but back when there were esports in this game it was pretty well known that the workhorse skills were staff 3 and 4. You broke out Vault to punish a disabled foe, or in bigger fights where everyone couldn't pay attention to dodging you (and if they did it caused them more problems). It was your money shot, like finishing people with Backstab combos. Debilitating Arc and Dust Strike are your Shadow Shot. Don't mess with the workhorse of the set. If you want to screw with something look at Weakening Charge - now that is a bad skill that you barely ever use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 Id go with cost reduction to dust strike instead of giving a block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killy.3278 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > Id go with cost reduction to dust strike instead of giving a block Yea I'd like this route too. Having a 3ini on the only blind and ranged poke for staff can go a long way for dueling imo. That and fix staff2 reliability so the set has some real offensive options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safandula.8723 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 I would put reflects from last aa chain hits to Staff 2 so we can utilize it more reliably than, with pure rng, and than maybe put some blocks on last aa chain part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foste.3098 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 > @"Ensign.2189" said: > Debilitating Arc and Dust Strike are your Shadow Shot. Don't mess with the workhorse of the set. If you want to screw with something look at Weakening Charge - now that is a bad skill that you barely ever use. Idk what you are on but i want some. Weakening charge is the best skill on the set in tearms of damage, it is the only skill on staff that you can use with steal to an actual effect and it applies weakness, calling it bad is beyond insane. On the other hand dust strike is the worst blind application thief has access to across all weapon sets, it does not compare to any other skill in terms of power, let alone shadow shot. If any skill is to be reworked in to some kind of block (good idea bdw) it is dust strike; maybe to a flip over skill where you block for a second, and if successfully it flips over to the current dust strike with the initiative costs split to 4 for the block part and 2 for the dust strike flip over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted April 27, 2019 Share Posted April 27, 2019 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > I always thought to myself that Revenants Staff skill _Warding Rift_ should have belonged to the DD staff, most likely instead of Dust Strike which should have been swapped to Rev. Since half the stuff that became revenant traits was suggested in the thief section of the "ask the community" event anet did before hot, it doesn't surprise me you feel that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. I like this suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonHeaven.2430 Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. So from what I have seen of the Elite specs fighting style, it resembles a Martial arts style staff in real life. That said I disagree with a block as a staff does not block attacks from weapons as much as parries or deflects them. I agree we need something defensive in the skill set, perhaps a spinning staff that deflects attacks, if successful the staff skill changes to an activatable skill that delivers a counterblow to the melee ranged opponent, ranged opponents are harder to deflect. ranged attacks should have a 50/50 chance of deflection. I love using a staff but I wish it had more traits of an actual martial arts staff that it is based off, dodging, parrying and counterattacking instead of just its heavy attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"MoonHeaven.2430" said: > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. > > So from what I have seen of the Elite specs fighting style, it resembles a Martial arts style staff in real life. That said I disagree with a block as a staff does not block attacks from weapons as much as parries or deflects them. I agree we need something defensive in the skill set, perhaps a spinning staff that deflects attacks, if successful the staff skill changes to an activatable skill that delivers a counterblow to the melee ranged opponent, ranged opponents are harder to deflect. ranged attacks should have a 50/50 chance of deflection. > > I love using a staff but I wish it had more traits of an actual martial arts staff that it is based off, dodging, parrying and counterattacking instead of just its heavy attacks. I’m not opposed to the Parry/Counterattack. I rather it’s automatic counter attack once it blocks (rather than an activated one like bandits defense), similar to spear skills from both Warrior and Thief. Btw, revenant has a staff channeled block. so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > @"MoonHeaven.2430" said: > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > > > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. > > > > So from what I have seen of the Elite specs fighting style, it resembles a Martial arts style staff in real life. That said I disagree with a block as a staff does not block attacks from weapons as much as parries or deflects them. I agree we need something defensive in the skill set, perhaps a spinning staff that deflects attacks, if successful the staff skill changes to an activatable skill that delivers a counterblow to the melee ranged opponent, ranged opponents are harder to deflect. ranged attacks should have a 50/50 chance of deflection. > > > > I love using a staff but I wish it had more traits of an actual martial arts staff that it is based off, dodging, parrying and counterattacking instead of just its heavy attacks. > > I’m not opposed to the Parry/Counterattack. I rather it’s automatic counter attack once it blocks (rather than an activated one like bandits defense), similar to spear skills from both Warrior and Thief. > > Btw, revenant has a staff channeled block. so... warrior has a rifle knockback hurry also ask for one on thief /s why do people allways go "but this class also has it!" isn't the point of different classes to play different and feel unique, so why try to make them all feel the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > @"MoonHeaven.2430" said: > > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > > > > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. > > > > > > So from what I have seen of the Elite specs fighting style, it resembles a Martial arts style staff in real life. That said I disagree with a block as a staff does not block attacks from weapons as much as parries or deflects them. I agree we need something defensive in the skill set, perhaps a spinning staff that deflects attacks, if successful the staff skill changes to an activatable skill that delivers a counterblow to the melee ranged opponent, ranged opponents are harder to deflect. ranged attacks should have a 50/50 chance of deflection. > > > > > > I love using a staff but I wish it had more traits of an actual martial arts staff that it is based off, dodging, parrying and counterattacking instead of just its heavy attacks. > > > > I’m not opposed to the Parry/Counterattack. I rather it’s automatic counter attack once it blocks (rather than an activated one like bandits defense), similar to spear skills from both Warrior and Thief. > > > > Btw, revenant has a staff channeled block. so... > > warrior has a rifle knockback > hurry also ask for one on thief > > > /s > > why do people allways go "but this class also has it!" > > isn't the point of different classes to play different and feel unique, so why try to make them all feel the same? > > Because ANET keeps pushing for staff DD but doesn’t really give them proper tools to sustain. And yes. I want knockback on my DE rifle. and cookies and muffins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straegen.2938 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 I am sure they thought Bandit's Defense was meant to serve this purpose. The base problem though is that melee needs to cover ground since range is so powerful in this game. Burning utilities just to get close to an opponent is a quick way to get dead which is why the staff goes mostly unused in WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > @"MoonHeaven.2430" said: > > > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > > > > > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. > > > > > > > > So from what I have seen of the Elite specs fighting style, it resembles a Martial arts style staff in real life. That said I disagree with a block as a staff does not block attacks from weapons as much as parries or deflects them. I agree we need something defensive in the skill set, perhaps a spinning staff that deflects attacks, if successful the staff skill changes to an activatable skill that delivers a counterblow to the melee ranged opponent, ranged opponents are harder to deflect. ranged attacks should have a 50/50 chance of deflection. > > > > > > > > I love using a staff but I wish it had more traits of an actual martial arts staff that it is based off, dodging, parrying and counterattacking instead of just its heavy attacks. > > > > > > I’m not opposed to the Parry/Counterattack. I rather it’s automatic counter attack once it blocks (rather than an activated one like bandits defense), similar to spear skills from both Warrior and Thief. > > > > > > Btw, revenant has a staff channeled block. so... > > > > warrior has a rifle knockback > > hurry also ask for one on thief > > > > > > /s > > > > why do people allways go "but this class also has it!" > > > > isn't the point of different classes to play different and feel unique, so why try to make them all feel the same? > > > > > > Because ANET keeps pushing for staff DD but doesn’t really give them proper tools to sustain. > > And yes. I want knockback on my DE rifle. > and cookies > and muffins > > > > > > > i mean... you have an evade on staff 3 you have an evade on staff 5 you have 3 dodges compared to 2 blind on staff 4 weakness on staff 2 punnishing strikes has a build in reflect (lol??? reflect in auto attack chain???) that is pretty much everything to shut down physical-damage classes with or evades, or blind, or weakness, or reflects if you want to turn staff from a dps weapon (which on top of all that, staff still is see pve meta) to a utility weapon like said rev, then you'd need to shave in alot of the damage i'm not sure if pve thiefs would like such staff overhaul, and redesigning a full weapon is still different then splitting 1 skill for pvp balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 What if they just give Staff a passive ability in Staff Mastery trait to grant block every few seconds very similar to Guardian's Aegis? So instead of gaining endurance per init spent we can get a 1s block for each init spent, of course with an ICD of probably 10s. EDIT: for clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > > @"MoonHeaven.2430" said: > > > > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > > > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > > > > > > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. > > > > > > > > > > So from what I have seen of the Elite specs fighting style, it resembles a Martial arts style staff in real life. That said I disagree with a block as a staff does not block attacks from weapons as much as parries or deflects them. I agree we need something defensive in the skill set, perhaps a spinning staff that deflects attacks, if successful the staff skill changes to an activatable skill that delivers a counterblow to the melee ranged opponent, ranged opponents are harder to deflect. ranged attacks should have a 50/50 chance of deflection. > > > > > > > > > > I love using a staff but I wish it had more traits of an actual martial arts staff that it is based off, dodging, parrying and counterattacking instead of just its heavy attacks. > > > > > > > > I’m not opposed to the Parry/Counterattack. I rather it’s automatic counter attack once it blocks (rather than an activated one like bandits defense), similar to spear skills from both Warrior and Thief. > > > > > > > > Btw, revenant has a staff channeled block. so... > > > > > > warrior has a rifle knockback > > > hurry also ask for one on thief > > > > > > > > > /s > > > > > > why do people allways go "but this class also has it!" > > > > > > isn't the point of different classes to play different and feel unique, so why try to make them all feel the same? > > > > > > > > > > Because ANET keeps pushing for staff DD but doesn’t really give them proper tools to sustain. > > > > And yes. I want knockback on my DE rifle. > > and cookies > > and muffins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i mean... > > you have an evade on staff 3 > you have an evade on staff 5 > you have 3 dodges compared to 2 > > blind on staff 4 > weakness on staff 2 > > punnishing strikes has a build in reflect (lol??? reflect in auto attack chain???) > > that is pretty much everything to shut down physical-damage classes with or evades, or blind, or weakness, or reflects > > > if you want to turn staff from a dps weapon (which on top of all that, staff still is see pve meta) to a utility weapon like said rev, then you'd need to shave in alot of the damage > i'm not sure if pve thiefs would like such staff overhaul, and redesigning a full weapon is still different then splitting 1 skill for pvp balance Problem is u can name all the block and evades which seems like alot and that it would be enough but the reality is with the cost of ini for staff invades and endurance cost on evades u run out fast and most times classes out sustain ur dps and if they connect 2 hits on u ur in downstate. Even with all evades available sustain on thief isn't enough these days to be a viable dueler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 30, 2019 Share Posted April 30, 2019 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > > > @"MoonHeaven.2430" said: > > > > > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > > > > > Make skill 3 a 1 1/2s channeled block. > > > > > > > Make skill 4 a “withdraw” style evade but leaves a trail of dust that blinds foes. > > > > > > > > > > > > So from what I have seen of the Elite specs fighting style, it resembles a Martial arts style staff in real life. That said I disagree with a block as a staff does not block attacks from weapons as much as parries or deflects them. I agree we need something defensive in the skill set, perhaps a spinning staff that deflects attacks, if successful the staff skill changes to an activatable skill that delivers a counterblow to the melee ranged opponent, ranged opponents are harder to deflect. ranged attacks should have a 50/50 chance of deflection. > > > > > > > > > > > > I love using a staff but I wish it had more traits of an actual martial arts staff that it is based off, dodging, parrying and counterattacking instead of just its heavy attacks. > > > > > > > > > > I’m not opposed to the Parry/Counterattack. I rather it’s automatic counter attack once it blocks (rather than an activated one like bandits defense), similar to spear skills from both Warrior and Thief. > > > > > > > > > > Btw, revenant has a staff channeled block. so... > > > > > > > > warrior has a rifle knockback > > > > hurry also ask for one on thief > > > > > > > > > > > > /s > > > > > > > > why do people allways go "but this class also has it!" > > > > > > > > isn't the point of different classes to play different and feel unique, so why try to make them all feel the same? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because ANET keeps pushing for staff DD but doesn’t really give them proper tools to sustain. > > > > > > And yes. I want knockback on my DE rifle. > > > and cookies > > > and muffins > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i mean... > > > > you have an evade on staff 3 > > you have an evade on staff 5 > > you have 3 dodges compared to 2 > > > > blind on staff 4 > > weakness on staff 2 > > > > punnishing strikes has a build in reflect (lol??? reflect in auto attack chain???) > > > > that is pretty much everything to shut down physical-damage classes with or evades, or blind, or weakness, or reflects > > > > > > if you want to turn staff from a dps weapon (which on top of all that, staff still is see pve meta) to a utility weapon like said rev, then you'd need to shave in alot of the damage > > i'm not sure if pve thiefs would like such staff overhaul, and redesigning a full weapon is still different then splitting 1 skill for pvp balance > > Problem is u can name all the block and evades which seems like alot and that it would be enough but the reality is with the cost of ini for staff invades and endurance cost on evades u run out fast and most times classes out sustain ur dps and if they connect 2 hits on u ur in downstate. Even with all evades available sustain on thief isn't enough these days to be a viable dueler. but, thief isn't a duelist ^^ thief is a decapper /+1'er sacrifice your mobility, and i'll approve for better sustain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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