Server without level scaling

[Einlanzer.1627]

I'm not saying your feelings are invalid, but I just have never understood why people enjoy being able to one-shot everything beyond a certain point. It isn't fun, it effectively backwards gates content, and it ruins immersion.

[Goettel.4389]

I don't really get the appeal of face-rolling through content, but to each his own - and in this case, that 'own' isn't GW2. Down-leveling is a great feature, and I wouldn't want it to change.

[tim.4596]

> @"GordonFreeman.6392" said:

> I know alot of people like level scaling, but i hate it. Theres enough 80+ content to keep you busy. Plus whats the point of keeping hero points and levels seperate? levels are obviously pointless now since the only reason both levels and hero points are for skills now. I hate going back to Queensdale and dying to something i shouldn't even be damaged by :(. I know there are more people like me that feel the same way that don't like the level scaling, so I was wondering if a non level scaling server could be made at least. I'd switch to wow but i don't want to do the monthly subscription thing. There are so many group events i cant solo at lvl 80 and theres not enough ppl to do them with... its annoying.

 

How do you die at Queensdale ??? You can literally one shot every single mob, even if you are thrown back to lvl 1-15 while in Queensdale, you shouldn't die that easily. The game still follow a difficulty pattern, so Queensdale compared to a lvl 80 zone makes it almost impossible for you to die (in my opinion), unless if you afk in a zone full of monster. Plus you have a massive advantage over lower level if you are max level since you can use traited talents. Also, while gear stats are diminished to match the level of the area, being full berserker will still be more profitable. And the quality level of the item is respected too.

 

So your exotic/ascended gear should give you more stats than any other item of the same level with similar stats would.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"GordonFreeman.6392" said:

> I know alot of people like level scaling, but i hate it. Theres enough 80+ content to keep you busy. Plus whats the point of keeping hero points and levels seperate? levels are obviously pointless now since the only reason both levels and hero points are for skills now. I hate going back to Queensdale and dying to something i shouldn't even be damaged by :(. I know there are more people like me that feel the same way that don't like the level scaling, so I was wondering if a non level scaling server could be made at least. I'd switch to wow but i don't want to do the monthly subscription thing. There are so many group events i cant solo at lvl 80 and theres not enough ppl to do them with... its annoying.

 

Then all perks from zone completion need to be removed, unless you did them within x levels of whatever the map is supposed to be. There would be no drops after x amount of levels higher than a zone, and no xp. Probably should remove any non "commune with place of power" hero points as well. Going to Queensdale at 60, let alone 80 isn't very heroic, so any spawn hero points shouldn't count.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"keenedge.9675" said:

> The ONLY reason a level 80 should die in Queensdale is LACK of ATTENTION by the player. (and WB)

> or perhaps bad gear choices that cause low resistance if you go back to a low-level map, IE; wearing lvl 68 gear on a level 80 while on a level 20 map.

 

Even naked is okay so low level gear shouldn't be that bad.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Just to point out to everyone responding to this thread, that the OP doesn't ask to change the entire game to remove scaling, he is asking for a way to play that way separated from others if he must (He mentions making a own server for that). While some have responded to and pointed out the problems with this. Most looks like they think he wants to flat out remove scaling from the game, and that's derailing the discussion (or what could have been).

>

> ---

>

> > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > Levels themself is a useless grandfathered feature from old MMOs.

>

> +1 So much, so very much.

 

Diverting resources to the OP's request would effectively impact everyone.

[gonzi.7605]

There is one major problem... the game wasn't planned for non-scalling option in the first place. It would require much more effort than simple let players use their full stats/gear etc. For example : what would protect bored 80 lvl pro high elo player to just mess around killing everything? What would happens if you want to do some bigger event... and there are no players so it will fail every single time bcs in zone at 30 lvl would stick only 4 or 5 players near 30 lvl? And many other things to consider.

 

Look at World of Warcraft - until you get to last expansion it feels like you are in ghost town, and got such a big places... without any players. Gw2 would stuck into the same loop. Especially if you want to make it "additional" option. If you ask me - without people running around, doing their things, coming up to events etc the whole game would be pretty... dull?

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > Just to point out to everyone responding to this thread, that the OP doesn't ask to change the entire game to remove scaling, he is asking for a way to play that way separated from others if he must (He mentions making a own server for that). While some have responded to and pointed out the problems with this. Most looks like they think he wants to flat out remove scaling from the game, and that's derailing the discussion (or what could have been).

> >

> > ---

> >

> > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > Levels themself is a useless grandfathered feature from old MMOs.

> >

> > +1 So much, so very much.

>

> Diverting resources to the OP's request would effectively impact everyone.

 

Probably true, but I don't see the harm in trying to discuss and come up with ideas and ways to make it work, instead of just bashing it down. I suggested one way earlier in the thread for how to implement this without affecting everyone else, though I can't know how much work it would be to implement since I'm no dev.

 

I guess I just dislike this kind of "mob mentality" the forum easily fall into, where everyone is busy bashing an idea rather than try to think of new ideas for it.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

 

> I guess I just dislike this kind of "mob mentality" the forum easily fall into, where everyone is busy bashing an idea rather than try to think of new ideas for it.

I understand that. I think that the "problem" is that many people come to the forums with ideas and suggestions without clearly articulating them or considering how the ideas/suggestions might impact Anet's bottom line. One thing I've seen asked before on suggestions is : what's in it for Anet? Without the answer to this question (or at least consideration of it), I believe many forum readers will discount the idea/suggestion for lack of sufficient merit.

 

[Einlanzer.1627]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > Just to point out to everyone responding to this thread, that the OP doesn't ask to change the entire game to remove scaling, he is asking for a way to play that way separated from others if he must (He mentions making a own server for that). While some have responded to and pointed out the problems with this. Most looks like they think he wants to flat out remove scaling from the game, and that's derailing the discussion (or what could have been).

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

> > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > > Levels themself is a useless grandfathered feature from old MMOs.

> > >

> > > +1 So much, so very much.

> >

> > Diverting resources to the OP's request would effectively impact everyone.

>

> Probably true, but I don't see the harm in trying to discuss and come up with ideas and ways to make it work, instead of just bashing it down. I suggested one way earlier in the thread for how to implement this without affecting everyone else, though I can't know how much work it would be to implement since I'm no dev.

>

> I guess I just dislike this kind of "mob mentality" the forum easily fall into, where everyone is busy bashing an idea rather than try to think of new ideas for it.

 

Generally speaking, I completely agree. In this specific case, I don't see a problem that needs a solution. Downscaling is one of the best things about this game and has much more support than not. I don't think Anet or the game have anything to gain by offering this or significantly altering the way scaling works in the game. It's simply a matter of changing games if you like being able to faceroll content even more than you already can.

[Etria.3642]

It's kind of like the old Nintendo cheat codes that granted invulnerability. I liked them for a one-time thing--to check out the endings of games I was quite simply, not good enough to finish the real way, but otherwise, for just actually playing a game, no.

 

For instance, never used them on Morrowind, Skyrim, Oblivion, though in all three I have at times adjusted the difficulty down(and later, up) to account for my own personal 'learn to git gud' ability.

 

In fact when I began to play GW2 I was pretty terrible too. I recently replayed the story and I boggle at what I considered difficult at first. Granted, I was on an ungeared, base Elly, but still. There was one time in Season 2 where I was naked, doing one teeny tiny eensy bitty tick of damage to a boss before dying and I simply refused to either get help or restart. I think I died upwards of 30 times before the game finally took pity on me and my heretofore useless henchmen started doing some damage too, finally killing it. When I went back and did this on my raid-geared, knew the rotation, knew mechanics, knew what dodge was(I really never used dodge at all in the early going except to get the chest in queensdale) soulbeast I one-shot it.

 

BUT that said, my brothers, both of them, loved the heck out of those codes, and would not only use the invulnerable ones, but also the max damage, max gold, max everything and they would play that way for hours upon hours, seeing the biggest hit they could get, etc. Basically, there is no one 'right' way to play a game, everyone is individual, BUT I personally think level 80's are plenty strong enough in the starter areas already.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > Just to point out to everyone responding to this thread, that the OP doesn't ask to change the entire game to remove scaling, he is asking for a way to play that way separated from others if he must (He mentions making a own server for that). While some have responded to and pointed out the problems with this. Most looks like they think he wants to flat out remove scaling from the game, and that's derailing the discussion (or what could have been).

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

> > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > > Levels themself is a useless grandfathered feature from old MMOs.

> > >

> > > +1 So much, so very much.

> >

> > Diverting resources to the OP's request would effectively impact everyone.

>

> Probably true, but I don't see the harm in trying to discuss and come up with ideas and ways to make it work, instead of just bashing it down. I suggested one way earlier in the thread for how to implement this without affecting everyone else, though I can't know how much work it would be to implement since I'm no dev.

>

> I guess I just dislike this kind of "mob mentality" the forum easily fall into, where everyone is busy bashing an idea rather than try to think of new ideas for it.

 

Its not mob mentality for others to not think that an idea is worth the effort. Calling it that is just an attempt to demonize those who disagree with you in an attempt to discredit any disagreement with your idea.

[Monimon.6710]

@OP You Sir, are deserving a fish <*)))o>

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > Just to point out to everyone responding to this thread, that the OP doesn't ask to change the entire game to remove scaling, he is asking for a way to play that way separated from others if he must (He mentions making a own server for that). While some have responded to and pointed out the problems with this. Most looks like they think he wants to flat out remove scaling from the game, and that's derailing the discussion (or what could have been).

> > >

> > > ---

> > >

> > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > > Levels themself is a useless grandfathered feature from old MMOs.

> > >

> > > +1 So much, so very much.

> >

> > Diverting resources to the OP's request would effectively impact everyone.

>

> Probably true, but I don't see the harm in trying to discuss and come up with ideas and ways to make it work, instead of just bashing it down.

 

So you are asserting that is definitely a problem?

 

> I suggested one way earlier in the thread for how to implement this without affecting everyone else, though I can't know how much work it would be to implement since I'm no dev.

 

Your suggestion also completely ignores other factors that other people have mentioned such as how to deal with rewards because if left in place it would have to drag a lot of things along with it. This includes but splitting the TP, if they are split then it becomes two different economies which means the gold<->gem exchange also needs to be split. Player trading via mail and guild banks would need to have the same to avoid circumvention. Characters would also need to be permanently locked to that mode. Is there even enough people who would participate to fill 1 map? How are these people going to deal with the rest of the game such as expansions? If you can't fight a lv10 enemy with a lv80 then how are you going to fight a lv80 enemy?

 

> I guess I just dislike this kind of "mob mentality" the forum easily fall into, where everyone is busy bashing an idea rather than try to think of new ideas for it.

 

Treating every suggestion as some sort of brilliant insight is just as bad.

[Hannelore.8153]

If anything level 80s are way too strong in low level zones, they can solo content designed for five level-appropriate players..

You can even do this in story dungeons, soo...

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > > Just to point out to everyone responding to this thread, that the OP doesn't ask to change the entire game to remove scaling, he is asking for a way to play that way separated from others if he must (He mentions making a own server for that). While some have responded to and pointed out the problems with this. Most looks like they think he wants to flat out remove scaling from the game, and that's derailing the discussion (or what could have been).

> > > >

> > > > ---

> > > >

> > > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > > > Levels themself is a useless grandfathered feature from old MMOs.

> > > >

> > > > +1 So much, so very much.

> > >

> > > Diverting resources to the OP's request would effectively impact everyone.

> >

> > Probably true, but I don't see the harm in trying to discuss and come up with ideas and ways to make it work, instead of just bashing it down.

>

> So you are asserting that is definitely a problem?

>

 

Nope, but that doesn't mean it isn't something that can be discussed and come up with ideas. Besides I enjoy the intellectual challenge of coming up with game design solutions.

 

> > I suggested one way earlier in the thread for how to implement this without affecting everyone else, though I can't know how much work it would be to implement since I'm no dev.

>

> Your suggestion also completely ignores other factors that other people have mentioned such as how to deal with rewards because if left in place it would have to drag a lot of things along with it. This includes but splitting the TP, if they are split then it becomes two different economies which means the gold<->gem exchange also needs to be split. Player trading via mail and guild banks would need to have the same to avoid circumvention. Characters would also need to be permanently locked to that mode. Is there even enough people who would participate to fill 1 map? How are these people going to deal with the rest of the game such as expansions? If you can't fight a lv10 enemy with a lv80 then how are you going to fight a lv80 enemy?

>

 

Considering my idea doesn't need you to split the TP, doesn't change loot one bit, doesn't split servers, doesn't need to lock people to specific modes, and only separates people from each others when they chose to go into an instance and otherwise doesn't depopulate maps and more than a dungeon might. I don't really see what you're saying here.

 

It certainly wouldn't help or change on bit for people already struggling against level 80 enemies, but honestly what would?

 

> > I guess I just dislike this kind of "mob mentality" the forum easily fall into, where everyone is busy bashing an idea rather than try to think of new ideas for it.

>

> Treating every suggestion as some sort of brilliant insight is just as bad.

 

I guess I rather like to see every suggestion as the start of a possible discussion on finding good ideas.

 

For example the earlier post where I made a suggestion to how it could be solved, that same change could also be used for other things, that might benefit other parts of the player-base, specifically I mentioned the addition of a "hard mode" for open-world maps. And that is something a decent amount of other players have voiced a desire for.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > > > Just to point out to everyone responding to this thread, that the OP doesn't ask to change the entire game to remove scaling, he is asking for a way to play that way separated from others if he must (He mentions making a own server for that). While some have responded to and pointed out the problems with this. Most looks like they think he wants to flat out remove scaling from the game, and that's derailing the discussion (or what could have been).

> > > >

> > > > ---

> > > >

> > > > > @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> > > > > Levels themself is a useless grandfathered feature from old MMOs.

> > > >

> > > > +1 So much, so very much.

> > >

> > > Diverting resources to the OP's request would effectively impact everyone.

> >

> > Probably true, but I don't see the harm in trying to discuss and come up with ideas and ways to make it work, instead of just bashing it down. I suggested one way earlier in the thread for how to implement this without affecting everyone else, though I can't know how much work it would be to implement since I'm no dev.

> >

> > I guess I just dislike this kind of "mob mentality" the forum easily fall into, where everyone is busy bashing an idea rather than try to think of new ideas for it.

>

> Generally speaking, I completely agree. In this specific case, I don't see a problem that needs a solution. Downscaling is one of the best things about this game and has much more support than not. I don't think Anet or the game have anything to gain by offering this or significantly altering the way scaling works in the game. It's simply a matter of changing games if you like being able to faceroll content even more than you already can.

 

+1 Really love the downscaling system myself, and I do think people would be better off considering changing game rather than expect that in GW2. (Heck, I actually wish the down scaling system scaled us a bit further, I'd like to be 2 levels under, to compensate for advantages og build/gear etc. But that doesn't belong here!)

 

Guess the way the thread was going just rubbed me the wrong way :p

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Considering my idea doesn't need you to split the TP, doesn't change loot one bit, doesn't split servers, doesn't need to lock people to specific modes, and only separates people from each others when they chose to go into an instance and otherwise doesn't depopulate maps and more than a dungeon might. I don't really see what you're saying here.

 

That would only be true if your suggested "instanced unscaled map version" offered absolutely no rewards of any kind: no xp, no drops, no map rewards, no event rewards, no achievements, no nodes. In such a case it would be completely pointless. Yes, it would let the player experience the feeling of overwhelming power, but let's be honest, it's unlikely OP would be satisied with that. What he claims to want is to not have to wory about other mobs when he's doing his own things - notice, that your suggestion would do nothing for that, because those things OP wanted to do would still be on scaled version of the map, not in the unscaled instance.

 

And anything without those restrictions i mentioned above _would_ require strict player separation, or it would impact the whole game - even those players that didn't want that feature in the first place.

[joneirikb.7506]

Curious exactly how that would interact. If you just instance a copy of say Queensdale, what rewards could you get there in an instance mode you couldn't get just as easy or easier due to other players in the normal version?

 

Disable Achievements for safety, and disable the Shadow Behemoth and the bandit champions, so they're not farm-able.

 

Is there anything else there that could be worth anything that isn't just as easy to farm and get in the normal map?

 

Because if not, then even un-scaled doesn't really change that.

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Curious exactly how that would interact. If you just instance a copy of say Queensdale, what rewards could you get there in an instance mode you couldn't get just as easy or easier due to other players in the normal version?

>

> Disable Achievements for safety, and disable the Shadow Behemoth and the bandit champions, so they're not farm-able.

>

> Is there anything else there that could be worth anything that isn't just as easy to farm and get in the normal map?

>

> Because if not, then even un-scaled doesn't really change that.

One word: trading post

 

If you get the same loot going around one-shooting everything that you get on the scaled maps, farming the non-scaling version would require considerably less investment in time, attention and equipment for everyone, no matter how clueless they are about builds and playstyles.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > Curious exactly how that would interact. If you just instance a copy of say Queensdale, what rewards could you get there in an instance mode you couldn't get just as easy or easier due to other players in the normal version?

> >

> > Disable Achievements for safety, and disable the Shadow Behemoth and the bandit champions, so they're not farm-able.

> >

> > Is there anything else there that could be worth anything that isn't just as easy to farm and get in the normal map?

> >

> > Because if not, then even un-scaled doesn't really change that.

> One word: trading post

>

> If you get the same loot going around one-shooting everything that you get on the scaled maps, farming the non-scaling version would require considerably less investment in time, attention and equipment for everyone, no matter how clueless they are about builds and playstyles.

 

Continuing to use Queensdale as an example here. You can close to 1 shot most mobs there anyways, and you wouldn't have groups of other players so on average I'd say it would even out ? But I could definitively see this on other maps (though it would reduce in efficiency the higher the level of the map).

 

Hmm, lets say a 50% debuff to all rewards, that should fix most of those issues, and probably be a bit overkill just for safety.

 

---

 

Friend pointed out some technical problems to me, that I can't really say since I don't know the tech ANet works with etc:

 

* Server Load: We don't know how much extra work creating a whole map instance would create, and how many things runs in the background compared to most other Instances (dungeons and story instances tend to have little to no background running things like vent timers and movement around in the world etc).

* User Interface: Something that seems simple to us on the front end, but can be a nightmare in many ways for the people at the back-end side.

 

Another place that might be easier to accomplish this from a technical and impact point of view, might be to make un-synched dungeons (remove all rewards and stuff, remove scaling). It wouldn't give you the feeling of killing everything in the open world map (which I felt was what the OP wanted), but it might be the easiest way (tech) to implement a non-scaling instance in the game.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Continuing to use Queensdale as an example here. You can close to 1 shot most mobs there anyways, and you wouldn't have groups of other players so on average I'd say it would even out ?

I wouldn't call being able to solo worldbosses, and being able to do all achievements/map completion/collections on those maps without worry "evening out".

 

No, a 50% reward reduction would not be enough (and not all things can be simply reduced anyway).

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > Continuing to use Queensdale as an example here. You can close to 1 shot most mobs there anyways, and you wouldn't have groups of other players so on average I'd say it would even out ?

> I wouldn't call being able to solo worldbosses, and being able to do all achievements/map completion/collections on those maps without worry "evening out".

>

> No, a 50% reward reduction would not be enough (and not all things can be simply reduced anyway).

 

I already suggested removing World Boss and Disabling Achievements.

 

Personally don't see a problem with map completion considering it would still impact less on the higher maps anyways so the effort isn't completely gone, just from the easiest maps anyways. And it will still take about the same amount of time to go and do all of that anyways. I just don't see a real impact, but granted I don't really care about map completion myself, so I might under-value it.

 

Hmm, why would collections be easier to do on a solo-no-scale map than one a normal map where more people could potentially help ?

 

Considering that even with no-scaling so you can be level 80 with all the stats in a level 15 zone, and you can already kill almost anything in a level 15 zone when scaled down easy with a full 80 zerk scaled down anyways, the main limitation becomes how many actions you can do per time unit. If you need 2 skills or AA's to kill a mob in Queensdale now, and your unscaled level 80 1 shots them instead, you're effectively doubling the effective amount of actions you can take. Even that runs into some problems as on a normal map you can force multiply that with other players by everyone tagging multiple mobs. But there is a direct limit to how much faster you can go, so I honestly don't think complete removal of rewards really is warranted, reduction sure.

 

But for the OP's request, then sure removing all rewards wouldn't cause a problem (to the way he worded it).

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> I already suggested removing World Boss and Disabling Achievements.

For something that you aren't sure is even an issue, your "discussion of ideas" keeps veering into the impractically-expensive category. Adding a new instance in which a fundamental mechanic doesn't trigger is costly. Removing a world boss (and dealing with its pre-event chains) is also costly. That seems like an awful lot of trouble for something that might not even be needed.

 

****

 

For whatever reasons, the OP's problem statement was ambiguous. From later posts, I suspect the catalyzing issue might have been the added Shining Blade Bounty bosses (_Vic the Iron_ will shred the unprepared). There's also an expectation mismatch from those who have played other games, since "overleveling" is a common mechanic.

 

I think it remains an open question for the community about whether Queensdale is best off with two bounties that most of us seem to avoid. If that's the "real" issue, the easiest solution would be to simply move them elsewhere. (I say "simply," but of course, it's far from free to find an appropriate location.)

 

If the issue is instead the strong preference that some have for "god mode" or "being able to one-shot," then I think it's better to first agree about whether that's even important for this particular game, rather than to invest in trying to figure out how to address that preference.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Hmm, why would collections be easier to do on a solo-no-scale map than one a normal map where more people could potentially help ?

Because more people do not necessarily help. Remember, that events scale up to the number of people participating. Also, you mentioned going in solo, or _in a group_.

That's without even considering that someone who knows what they're doing, and are utilizing a proper build can often deal upward of 25% of the damage of a 50-man open world zerg - and in instanced version of the map you'd have perfect control over who goes in and who doesn't.

 

A hypothetical unscaled 5-man meta group would be doing damage greater by an order of magnitude than the _whole map_ of scaled down open world players. To mobs/bosses whose hps would _not_ be scaled up to a whole zerg of players. You may think that the worldbosses on low level maps are melting now, during the world boss event, but it would be nothing compared to what would happen then.

 

> But for the OP's request, then sure removing all rewards wouldn't cause a problem (to the way he worded it).

The way he worded it, it seemed he was doing something on the map, ended up close to the bandit champ, and got owned (which is not surprising - those _were_ made for fully kited out level 80 players after all). With your suggestion this would still happen, because the things he was doing in that map most likely he'd have to do in the normal version of it, not in the instanced one.