Most of the Races are hard to look at

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > That's the problem with you people. You try to make your characters into hot/cute girl things. Just make a cool character? :s

>

> Those cannot be synonymous?

 

I didn't say that. But what I meant was actually that something doesn't have to be a pretty girl to be a compelling character. That's all. There can be cool characters who are ugly or neutral.

 

 

[Leo G.4501]

> @"burrowowl.1457" said:

> The asura pictures above (and everywhere else for that matter) cutesy them up as much as possible.

 

Which pictures? The one by Drew.1865? The face there looks near identical to one of the in-game faces. Or the screenshots from LadyKitty.6120? I don't think it's a matter of cutsey'ing anything, it's just that Asura have the capacity to look cute.

 

I personally feel a lot of the criticism is diverging and we have some judging beauty for beauty and judging beauty with sexual attraction. Like, I can look at a bird outside flying or doing burb things near a lake and can see natural beauty in it. I'd find it hard to dismiss the unique beauty of the Asura just because they have extremely unique (but symmetrical) teeth, for example. That isn't saying all Asura, as some look like frog faces (although some frogs have their appeal as well: http://d37mj2y90xfw6q.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/poison-dart-frog2-e1461547244698.jpg?x82903)

 

 

 

[Danikat.8537]

I find it interesting (and to me kind of surprising) that it seems to be important to a lot of people that player characters conform to human beauty standards (or at least have the ability to be customised that way) - that they look attractive (in the sense that you could be attracted to them), or cute or pretty, like a real life human is pretty, even if the character is not human.

 

If anything I tend to go the other way, I find it more interesting when my characters look alien to me. When I first played Morrowind (the 3rd Elder Scrolls game and the first one I played) I was immediately drawn to the khajiit and the argonians because I'd only ever played one other game with cat people and lizard people (Lands of Lore...if anyone remembers it) and they looked quite different. It was the same with the charr and later sylvari in GW2.

 

Although it came as a bit of a surprise when I realised a few years ago that I don't even try to make my human characters attractive. Even my main who is kind of a mary-sue. When I'm making a character I have a clear idea of who they are - what their personality is, maybe some defining features (like hair colour, hair styles they'd wear), how old they are - and I make a face to suit that but I never worry about whether they're attractive. At least not unless my husband comments on it - he tends to say they're not and then I feel kind of insulted on their behalf, even though I wasn't trying to make them attractive.

 

But I want my charr to look like cats, my sylvari to look like plants and my asura to look like weird rat things. My one male norn isn't as massive as he could be, but that's because he's a necromancer so he wouldn't be very muscular. I don't want them to look human, or I would have made them all humans but that would be boring to me. I still think they look attractive in their own ways (although I'd be more inclined to use words like dramatic and imposing), but they could be beautiful - like a tree or a snow leopard is beautiful even though it doesn't look remotely human and I'd never be attracted to it.

 

> @"burrowowl.1457" said:

> Caithe looks great in most artwork of her and is presented as having far more human characteristics than she does in her actual character model. Concept art seems to ignore just how plant like sylvari are. In game female faces are cringey for the most part, the males admittedly doing much better. It's a cool art direction and one I can respect, but whether it was intentional or not, they sure aren't "pretty." Armor and outfits don't work as well as they do on human models and are inconsistent in how much they seem to soften body features.

 

That's actually because a lot of the concept art of Caithe you see in the game is from early on, before the sylvari were completely re-worked for not being plant-like enough. There's a blog post about it here, but unfortunately a lot of the pictures don't work any more: https://web.archive.org/web/20110810170026/https://www.arena.net/blog/kristen-perry-on-designing-and-redesigning-the-sylvari

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> I find it interesting (and to me kind of surprising) that it seems to be important to a lot of people that player characters conform to human beauty standards (or at least have the ability to be customised that way) - that they look attractive (in the sense that you could be attracted to them), or cute or pretty, like a real life human is pretty, even if the character is not human.

>

> If anything I tend to go the other way, I find it more interesting when my characters look alien to me. When I first played Morrowind (the 3rd Elder Scrolls game and the first one I played) I was immediately drawn to the khajiit and the argonians because I'd only ever played one other game with cat people and lizard people (Lands of Lore...if anyone remembers it) and they looked quite different. It was the same with the charr and later sylvari in GW2.

>

> Although it came as a bit of a surprise when I realised a few years ago that I don't even try to make my human characters attractive. Even my main who is kind of a mary-sue. When I'm making a character I have a clear idea of who they are - what their personality is, maybe some defining features (like hair colour, hair styles they'd wear), how old they are - and I make a face to suit that but I never worry about whether they're attractive. At least not unless my husband comments on it - he tends to say they're not and then I feel kind of insulted on their behalf, even though I wasn't trying to make them attractive.

>

> But I want my charr to look like cats, my sylvari to look like plants and my asura to look like weird rat things. My one male norn isn't as massive as he could be, but that's because he's a necromancer so he wouldn't be very muscular. I don't want them to look human, or I would have made them all humans but that would be boring to me. I still think they look attractive in their own ways (although I'd be more inclined to use words like dramatic and imposing), but they could be beautiful - like a tree or a snow leopard is beautiful even though it doesn't look remotely human and I'd never be attracted to it.

>

> > @"burrowowl.1457" said:

> > Caithe looks great in most artwork of her and is presented as having far more human characteristics than she does in her actual character model. Concept art seems to ignore just how plant like sylvari are. In game female faces are cringey for the most part, the males admittedly doing much better. It's a cool art direction and one I can respect, but whether it was intentional or not, they sure aren't "pretty." Armor and outfits don't work as well as they do on human models and are inconsistent in how much they seem to soften body features.

>

> That's actually because a lot of the concept art of Caithe you see in the game is from early on, before the sylvari were completely re-worked for not being plant-like enough. There's a blog post about it here, but unfortunately a lot of the pictures don't work any more: https://web.archive.org/web/20110810170026/https://www.arena.net/blog/kristen-perry-on-designing-and-redesigning-the-sylvari

 

the picture you're searching for is [this one](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/004/788/017/large/hai-phan-gw2-sylvariprototype.jpg?1486283127 "https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/004/788/017/large/hai-phan-gw2-sylvariprototype.jpg?1486283127") and i am quite sad they never kept some body paterns and faces like the old concept, it would be a nice alternative one without completely making it a separate race, they could do the same the other way around like having some body shapes and faces like ents.

[Dashiva.6149]

Norn females are visually the same as the ones found in GW1, including Jora, so that is what I'm used to and okay with. The Norn males deviates a fair bit though, looking more... mutated than their ancestors. As for players complaining they look too human, I think much of that is because the majority of armors in the game are designed for humans then "upscaled" for Norns. If we had more cultural skins and outfits they could be way more visually distinct beyond body size.

 

The main problem I have with the Norn are two things:

 

1. Much of the lore around their culture and society found in Eye of the North (through quests and dialouge) didn't translate into Gw2. In EotN, they are basically described as apex predators in the Far Shiverpeaks, and _very_ devoted to their spirits. And since humans are mostly pack-animals and thrive in larger communities, the very invidualistic nature of the Norn felt distinctly non-human at times.

 

For example: even after escaping a horde of Destroyers and certain death, Ogden still sees a single Norn as a major threat.

 

 

In gw2, way more emphasis are put to the Norn being braggarts, hotheads and drunkards.

 

2. One of the main physical characteristics unique of the Norn is their ability to shapeshift, and it was featured pretty heavely in EotN. In Gw2 it has been nerfed into oblivion beyond all playability. It's been _years_ since I've seen another player use any Norn-skills (skills from the other races pop up sometimes). A shame because it was one of the things I had high hopes for.

 


 

[Danikat.8537]

I use the norn transformation skills sometimes. I mainly play in PvE and most of the time it's easy enough that you can get away with using skills because they're fun rather than being the best choice. Part of the reason I re-made my male norn as a necromancer instead of a revenant is I hated being unable to use the racial skills.

[burrowowl.1457]

 

> Which pictures? The one by Drew.1865? The face there looks near identical to one of the in-game faces. Or the screenshots from LadyKitty.6120? I don't think it's a matter of cutsey'ing anything, it's just that Asura have the capacity to look cute.

>

> I personally feel a lot of the criticism is diverging and we have some judging beauty for beauty and judging beauty with sexual attraction. Like, I can look at a bird outside flying or doing burb things near a lake and can see natural beauty in it. I'd find it hard to dismiss the unique beauty of the Asura just because they have extremely unique (but symmetrical) teeth, for example.

 

Yes, the one by Drew. It's a great picture but it implies asura look way better than they do. The screenshots are caught during emotes and still look more creepy than cute. They managed to find the only few half decent looking outfits for an asuran female as well, so it doesn't do justice to what the player can expect.

 

Attraction I wasn't even trying to imply. That's not an argument at all, because by human standards they just aren't. What I'm trying to say is that they aren't cute the way puppies and other baby animals are cute. They can be a sort of ugly-cute, but that's about it. If they didn't have such cartoony personalities (which I love, to be clear) almost no one would think they actually look cute. It seems pretty obvious they were meant to be weird looking and a little off putting.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"burrowowl.1457" said:

>

> > Which pictures? The one by Drew.1865? The face there looks near identical to one of the in-game faces. Or the screenshots from LadyKitty.6120? I don't think it's a matter of cutsey'ing anything, it's just that Asura have the capacity to look cute.

> >

> > I personally feel a lot of the criticism is diverging and we have some judging beauty for beauty and judging beauty with sexual attraction. Like, I can look at a bird outside flying or doing burb things near a lake and can see natural beauty in it. I'd find it hard to dismiss the unique beauty of the Asura just because they have extremely unique (but symmetrical) teeth, for example.

>

> Yes, the one by Drew. It's a great picture but it implies asura look way better than they do. The screenshots are caught during emotes and still look more creepy than cute. They managed to find the only few half decent looking outfits for an asuran female as well, so it doesn't do justice to what the player can expect.

>

> Attraction I wasn't even trying to imply. That's not an argument at all, because by human standards they just aren't. What I'm trying to say is that they aren't cute the way puppies and other baby animals are cute. They can be a sort of ugly-cute, but that's about it. If they didn't have such cartoony personalities (which I love, to be clear) almost no one would think they actually look cute. It seems pretty obvious they were meant to be weird looking and a little off putting.

 

Again, like the frog pic I linked to, there are different degrees of cute. Beyond being symmetric and having smooth features (not lumpy, not bumpy, not scaly) they have another degree of cute angling toward diminutive. So long as they don't have features that that could be attributed as creepy (asymmetry, extra appendages, unnaturally long appendages...trying to think of other possible creepy creature features but they all seem to lend to multiple eyes, 8+ legs, multiple mouths or more than 2 eyes) then I believe a degree of cute can (and does, IMO) exist partly because they are small.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"KeoLegend.5132" said:

> i dont understand how people can find a PLANT atractive

 

Because they're still very much shaped exactly like people, and not like unshapely people, either.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> Tera is nearly as bad but for a specific reason, namely that classes are locked not only by race but by sex as well and all the new classes are limited to female characters except, I believe, the Brawler.

 

Welcome to Asian MMOs. The idea that your sex has no impact on your abilities is a distinctly western and modern notion. Everywhere else in the world (Asia in particular) sees sex as a division of ability, and likewise of professions. I remember seeing this as far back as Phantasy Star Online, where you were given limited race + class combinations that determine everything about the character.

 

You can even see the difference in philosophies between western MMOs. GW2 is particularly liberal, in that race and sex have no influence other than aesthetics. Compare it to WoW, in which sex has no impact, but race still determines which class you can play.

 

... When I'm bored I think about stuff like this.

[burrowowl.1457]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> So long as they don't have features that that could be attributed as creepy (asymmetry, extra appendages, unnaturally long appendages...trying to think of other possible creepy creature features but they all seem to lend to multiple eyes, 8+ legs, multiple mouths or more than 2 eyes) then I believe a degree of cute can (and does, IMO) exist partly because they are small.

 

In this incredibly forgiving definition that amounts to "small and not a nightmarish monstrosity" I guess asura can maybe slip by, but just barely. They have creepy features, as they look like shaved rodents with no tails, have pointed teeth, odd colored skin (mostly grey), and have weird three-toe feet. As an artistic choice I'm totally fine with it, weird is definitely an okay look for a race and it makes them unique. However, if the intent was to make them visually pleasing, it was a failure.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Welcome to Asian MMOs. The idea that your sex has no impact on your abilities is a distinctly western and modern notion.

 

GW2 has to be the most western focused MMO there is. Asian countries tend to more highly value being part of a group (guild or whatever) than have an awesome personal character. GW2 is ironically kind of lacking in the guild side of things and focuses very heavily on the individual character with fashion wars, personal story and all of that sort of thing as well as hitting all your earlier points.

[KeoLegend.5132]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > @"KeoLegend.5132" said:

> > i dont understand how people can find a PLANT atractive

>

> That's the problem with you people. You try to make your characters into hot/cute girl things. Just make a cool character? :s

 

That's the problem with you. I have a Sylvari that looks COOL

i was talking about finding a plant ATRACTIVE

 

ATRACTIVE and COOL aren't the same thing

 

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Enoah.1956" said:

> Sylvari are beautiful. Humans are boring, **Norns are fat**.

 

Objection!

 


 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Enoah.1956" said:

> > Sylvari are beautiful. Humans are boring, **Norns are fat**.

>

> Objection!

>

> 

>

>

 

I totally dig this guy, singing and dancing in the hot spring. Hysterical.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > > @"Enoah.1956" said:

> > > Sylvari are beautiful. Humans are boring, **Norns are fat**.

> >

> > Objection!

> >

> > 

> >

> >

>

> I totally dig this guy, singing and dancing in the hot spring. Hysterical.

 

It is actually my main. ;)

 

And yeah, I love mr Splishy-Splashy, too.

[arenta.2953]

> @"burrowowl.1457" said:

> While the non-human races are original and creative, I definitely understand the point that they are hard to look at. The art for female sylvari and asura tends to always make them look way more attractive or cute than is possible in game. Charr do their own thing, and do it well, but suffer from problems that all non human races do.

>

> Caithe looks great in most artwork of her and is presented as having far more human characteristics than she does in her actual character model. Concept art seems to ignore just how plant like sylvari are. In game female faces are cringey for the most part, the males admittedly doing much better. It's a cool art direction and one I can respect, but whether it was intentional or not, they sure aren't "pretty." Armor and outfits don't work as well as they do on human models and are inconsistent in how much they seem to soften body features.

>

> The asura pictures above (and everywhere else for that matter) cutesy them up as much as possible. The only two feminine looking outfits are shown in screenshots, since the rest look pretty awful and just drape over them. Pointed teeth are ignored and faces are caught in the best possible moment of an expression. In reality, they're weird little rodent-alien looking things with pointy teeth. They can have an element of cuteness, but by design they're basically objectively ugly. Taimi is cute because of her personality, and maybe that little bow helps, but by human standards she at best has that ugly-but-cute thing going that you see in certain pets. I love the personality and voice acting for them, which hurts because the fashion wars element is basically impossible as an asura. You find one of the few outfits that looks okay and that's it, you're done. Everything else just looks bland and androgynous, if you can even notice on the tiny character model to begin with.

>

> Charr aren't attractive, or meant to be, and it works. They look tough, cool, and the bestial aspect is done incredibly well. A lot of armor stretches on them in a weird way because it seems to be modeled for humans first and then adapted as well as it can for other races.

 

ok you got a point about the outfits for asura

 

but for the face, you can make them cute by choosing the smoothest face, and lowering mouth width to its lowest setting. as well as making chin as big as possible.

 

like so


 

[Thelgar.7214]

> @"burrowowl.1457" said:

> While the non-human races are original and creative, I definitely understand the point that they are hard to look at. The art for female sylvari and asura tends to always make them look way more attractive or cute than is possible in game. Charr do their own thing, and do it well, but suffer from problems that all non human races do.

>

> Caithe looks great in most artwork of her and is presented as having far more human characteristics than she does in her actual character model. Concept art seems to ignore just how plant like sylvari are. In game female faces are cringey for the most part, the males admittedly doing much better. It's a cool art direction and one I can respect, but whether it was intentional or not, they sure aren't "pretty." Armor and outfits don't work as well as they do on human models and are inconsistent in how much they seem to soften body features.

>

> The asura pictures above (and everywhere else for that matter) cutesy them up as much as possible. The only two feminine looking outfits are shown in screenshots, since the rest look pretty awful and just drape over them. Pointed teeth are ignored and faces are caught in the best possible moment of an expression. In reality, they're weird little rodent-alien looking things with pointy teeth. They can have an element of cuteness, but by design they're basically objectively ugly. Taimi is cute because of her personality, and maybe that little bow helps, but by human standards she at best has that ugly-but-cute thing going that you see in certain pets. I love the personality and voice acting for them, which hurts because the fashion wars element is basically impossible as an asura. You find one of the few outfits that looks okay and that's it, you're done. Everything else just looks bland and androgynous, if you can even notice on the tiny character model to begin with.

>

> Charr aren't attractive, or meant to be, and it works. They look tough, cool, and the bestial aspect is done incredibly well. A lot of armor stretches on them in a weird way because it seems to be modeled for humans first and then adapted as well as it can for other races.

 

I'd disagree about fashion wars being impossible, in fact I think the Asura are the best characters to do fashion wars with. I have 13 female and two male asura just because I had ideas to dress them up. And the female Asura can definitely manage cute without ugly if you're looking for cute rather than sexy.

[Lilyanna.9361]

U FOOL.

 

You have never played with sliders on a charr, asura, and sylvari.

 

Humans look like walking Barbie dolls, to be honest. They are stiff, their animations are eye-rolling worthy, even the dialogue is lackluster.

 

When I design an asura I understand the pride and intelligence

 

When I design a charr I can take on the war and bloodshed they were bred upon

 

When I design a sylvari I can appreciate their empathic and curious outlook on life.

 

 

Humans..? Oh well gods. Religion. And more gods.

 

Their religion is the only saving grace for them, but everything else is just plain and boring.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Nox.7912" said:

> Save for Humans and Norn Women, Most of the Sylvari are ugly and have of bark for skin :# and the race is only 25 years old and for the other races, I do not want to look like an animal.

> Is ArenaNet going to include more races in the future?

 

What looks good on not its personal preference but at this point nobody knows if they will add another race.

[Edge.8724]

> @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > So basically you want another race that's human but not human? To me this would be a waste of time. I'm not sure what purpose it serves. Just make more hair styles, face choices for the existing races, and this way you can have more looks. Adding another race that's human by any other name isn't likely to happen even if Anet adds another race.

>

> Pretty much what I was thinking. In most games human is my last choice for a race because they're boring to me - I spend all day every day being a human in real life, why wouldn't I make my character something more interesting? (Admittedly I do play elves or 1/2 elves in a lot of games, but that's ones where all the races are ' tall skinny human', 'short bearded human', 'green human', 'human with horns' etc.) In GW2 my main is human, but that's because I wanted her to be descended from my GW1 character and there weren't any other playable races in that game. Otherwise she'd be a sylvari.

>

> Considering we already have humans, norn who look like humans but bigger and sylvari who can be made to look almost human but with a wider choice of skin and hair colour I think the last thing we need is yet another human looking race. Considering the most asked for race seems to be tengu, followed closely by quaggan, skritt and kodan I think a lot of people would be disappointed if Anet announced a new race and it was another 'human with 1 defining feature' race.

 

I won't even talk about Final Fantasy 14. Probably the worst races ever... Humans, humans with horns, humans with cat ears, tall human, big human, small human... literally.

[Warobaz.9543]

More body type options, more sliders, body fat, asymmetry (shorter limbs maybe?), unusual skin colors. There are so many options to make humanoids less bland!

edit : my comment followed the 1st page, I didn't see the others prior... ^^

 

And definitely, human character creation could see some things completely scrapped... god choice is so useless : favoring Kormir has absolutely no influence in PoF (contrary to being Sylvari in HoT for example). I could go on and say that being a human PC facing a god is totally identical to being any other race facing a human god. Only Kas and Jory seem to acknowledge what it represents.

 

and despite all that, afaik, humans are still the biggest demographic in game, so why would anything change?

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Zephyria.6103" said:

> Whaaaa???? Humans and Norn are my least favorite of the races. I have a toon of every race...but I've never seen the appeal to multiple varieties of different humans.

>

> I'd choose having Tengu characters over Dwarves any day...despite loving the Dwarven lore. Too easy to see them as 'short humans' unless they do something spectacular with the models and give them all cool statuary effects (mossy, glowy cracked statues, etc etc).

 

The stories change, at least the lvl 10 and 20 variants do. This applies across all the races, but for humans it's dead parents, missing sister and joining a circus. The latter I left for last, but having finished the first part recently, I wish now I'd done it first. If you're in it for the stories, that would be some of the appeal.

[phs.6089]

I have all races, most interesting was making my silvary mesmer, she is adorable if anyone says otherwise, I'll have to 1v1 you on my trailblazer mirage.

Human? Please it's boring

One thing i know for sure, you go silvary, you never look back

[Cedric Ambidexter.9174]

> @"Nox.7912" said:

> Save for Humans and Norn Women, Most of the Sylvari are ugly and have of bark for skin :# and the race is only 25 years old and for the other races, I do not want to look like an animal.

> Is ArenaNet going to include more races in the future?

 

HAHAHA I kind of agree.

 

But unfortunately the spells/skills feel exactly the same whatever class/race u choose, so GW1 was a lot more successful in terms of roleplay feel and setting a character identity between the races/classes.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> > @"Danikat.8537" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > So basically you want another race that's human but not human? To me this would be a waste of time. I'm not sure what purpose it serves. Just make more hair styles, face choices for the existing races, and this way you can have more looks. Adding another race that's human by any other name isn't likely to happen even if Anet adds another race.

> >

> > Pretty much what I was thinking. In most games human is my last choice for a race because they're boring to me - I spend all day every day being a human in real life, why wouldn't I make my character something more interesting? (Admittedly I do play elves or 1/2 elves in a lot of games, but that's ones where all the races are ' tall skinny human', 'short bearded human', 'green human', 'human with horns' etc.) In GW2 my main is human, but that's because I wanted her to be descended from my GW1 character and there weren't any other playable races in that game. Otherwise she'd be a sylvari.

> >

> > Considering we already have humans, norn who look like humans but bigger and sylvari who can be made to look almost human but with a wider choice of skin and hair colour I think the last thing we need is yet another human looking race. Considering the most asked for race seems to be tengu, followed closely by quaggan, skritt and kodan I think a lot of people would be disappointed if Anet announced a new race and it was another 'human with 1 defining feature' race.

>

> I won't even talk about Final Fantasy 14. Probably the worst races ever... Humans, humans with horns, humans with cat ears, tall human, big human, small human... literally.

 

Even more annoying, their races are based on their previous MMO's races but their new Galka (now Roegadyn) look more human by removing their tail and morphing their proportions and skin tones to make them nearly identical to humans.

 

While Galka wasn't a very popular race back in FFXI, it was heavily enjoyed by the players that did play Galka...but kitten those ppl. Gotta appease the people that need their different flavor of humans.

 

Also also, I hate how the names of their races are so damned forgettable. Galka kind of has a connotation of gruffness and bulk, Taru-taru was cute and reflected in how their speech patterns were unique, I can't even remember the names of their new races. I have to look them up every time I need to reference them lol.