Your problems with Thief?

[Sparrow.5936]

My main problem is that other classes are just plain better. Thief will always be the gameplay I prefer, but it's just silly how any hoops I have to jump through to get a decent amount of burst damage(including forcing me into an elite spec i might not want to play). ie: how many things can go wrong when trying to land a successful backstab, compared to other classes who just hit f1 and/or spin to win etc.., and get even greater damage out of it AND aren't nearly as squishy.

 

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> For traps, I do have one idea: Make them linger.

 

This has been requested before and a many have posted very good ideas about the lingering effects.

 

I although I like the trap to have multiple triggers before it gets destroyed.

[Ensign.2189]

The 'problem' with thief is that it has both tactical and strategic superiority over virtually everything in the game, and there isn't any good way to 'fix' that. Consequently, in every match-up the onus is on the thief to outplay their opponent, not the other way around. That makes playing thief feel wonderful since you are always in control of the match, but the downside is that in a balanced state everything else is stronger in a vacuum - because you can outplay, you have to outplay, and if you don't you get stat checked down.

[pureskullz.7536]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> 1) Real dual-wielding. Dual-Wielding mechanic (meaning same kind of weapon in both hands) should affect all 5 weapon skill not only skill #3. Using both weapons when auto-attacking similar to GW1 Assassin for daggers, for example; main-hand, off-hand, both sequence. Make this exclusive for Thief. No other profession should have this kind of dual-wielding skill -- not even Warrior (looking at you Axe skills).

> 2) Steal should be a staple F1 skill in all spec. Swipe and DE Mark should be optional.

> 3) Exhaustion is a joke.

> 4) Revealed is a joke.

> 5) Can't decap while stealth is a joke.

> 6) Expensive weapon skills (e.g. Sw/P) is a joke.

> 7) 12 init pool is a joke.

> 8) Not having separate init pool for a different weapon set is a joke.

> 9) Only using one end of the staff when attacking is a joke. Daredevil should use both end of the staff when attacking and this will make the attack speed a lot faster.

> 10) Very few weapon set selection is a joke.

>

> I play all professions and the Thief is the most restrictive profession compared to all the other professions. I cannot find the same freedom I get from the Guardian or Necro in the Thief. Playing a Thief is like playing with balls and chains on both of my wrists.

 

But why don't you use the ball and chain as a weapon?

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

 

Dude please dont praise Tornment p/d so much. It is not as good as you portrait it. Srsly i have played against MANY p/d thieves. Some of them using your build and it isnt working as much as my d/d is. I am not saying it is not good build. But it is not that good it would need so much praise. Also it is annoying to fight. It is not like it would kill you every time. But it is rly annoying. Not to mention Tronment and bleeds are the first to go out with cleanse on dodge so... yea thats what i mean

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"pureskullz.7536" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > 1) Real dual-wielding. Dual-Wielding mechanic (meaning same kind of weapon in both hands) should affect all 5 weapon skill not only skill #3. Using both weapons when auto-attacking similar to GW1 Assassin for daggers, for example; main-hand, off-hand, both sequence. Make this exclusive for Thief. No other profession should have this kind of dual-wielding skill -- not even Warrior (looking at you Axe skills).

> > 2) Steal should be a staple F1 skill in all spec. Swipe and DE Mark should be optional.

> > 3) Exhaustion is a joke.

> > 4) Revealed is a joke.

> > 5) Can't decap while stealth is a joke.

> > 6) Expensive weapon skills (e.g. Sw/P) is a joke.

> > 7) 12 init pool is a joke.

> > 8) Not having separate init pool for a different weapon set is a joke.

> > 9) Only using one end of the staff when attacking is a joke. Daredevil should use both end of the staff when attacking and this will make the attack speed a lot faster.

> > 10) Very few weapon set selection is a joke.

> >

> > I play all professions and the Thief is the most restrictive profession compared to all the other professions. I cannot find the same freedom I get from the Guardian or Necro in the Thief. Playing a Thief is like playing with balls and chains on both of my wrists.

>

> But why don't you use the ball and chain as a weapon?

 

Due to the nerfs, not strong enough to swing it.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

>

> Dude please dont praise Tornment p/d so much. It is not as good as you portrait it. Srsly i have played against MANY p/d thieves. Some of them using your build and it isnt working as much as my d/d is. I am not saying it is not good build. But it is not that good it would need so much praise. Also it is annoying to fight. It is not like it would kill you every time. But it is rly annoying. Not to mention Tronment and bleeds are the first to go out with cleanse on dodge so... yea thats what i mean

 

It can be very good if used right, you can burst condi pretty well but vs some enemies it pretty much requires baiting cleanse then blowing every cooldown you have. I haven't played it since the daredevil swipe change as it would force me to play deadeye or core, something I'm not sure I like the idea of, and the generally weak state of condi thief compared to just hitting something for 17k on deadeye.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Ensign.2189" said:

> The 'problem' with thief is that it has both tactical and strategic superiority over virtually everything in the game, and there isn't any good way to 'fix' that. Consequently, in every match-up the onus is on the thief to outplay their opponent, not the other way around. That makes playing thief feel wonderful since you are always in control of the match, but the downside is that in a balanced state everything else is stronger in a vacuum - because you can outplay, you have to outplay, and if you don't you get stat checked down.

 

I'm fine with this being a thing, there is a point when the nerfs are just because they have nothing else to put in the patch notes tho. Pretty sure the swipe change started off like this.

[saerni.2584]

@"Jack Redline.5379" @"Jugglemonkey.8741"

 

It’s not a Daredevil build it’s a Deadeye build. I’ve also changed it a bit to reflect the meta. It was last a Daredevil build during HoT and pre-Unhindered Combatant nerf.

 

Currently it’s a hybrid build based around torment and bleed with a decent crit rate.

 

I’m not sure where you’ve been encounting P/D thieves because I see one may once every few months at most. And most are just in arena practicing for giggles.

 

Edit: On my old old condi build all I’d do would be to load up condi and sheath my weapons. Flail, flail, dead. Of course in team fights I was better off timing Body Shot to lock them down at key moments. Evade spam only takes a Daredevil so far with the right timing.

[Ensign.2189]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> I'm fine with this being a thing, there is a point when the nerfs are just because they have nothing else to put in the patch notes tho. Pretty sure the swipe change started off like this.

 

Nah, when they have nothing else to put in the patch notes they buff random unused stuff. That's where the P/D change came from for instance.

 

Every nerf is poorly received by the community, enough so that they don't nerf anything without a compelling reason. There is lots of abstract complaining about power creep, but players strongly prefer every detail of power creep to any move curtailing it.

[pureskullz.7536]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"pureskullz.7536" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > 1) Real dual-wielding. Dual-Wielding mechanic (meaning same kind of weapon in both hands) should affect all 5 weapon skill not only skill #3. Using both weapons when auto-attacking similar to GW1 Assassin for daggers, for example; main-hand, off-hand, both sequence. Make this exclusive for Thief. No other profession should have this kind of dual-wielding skill -- not even Warrior (looking at you Axe skills).

> > > 2) Steal should be a staple F1 skill in all spec. Swipe and DE Mark should be optional.

> > > 3) Exhaustion is a joke.

> > > 4) Revealed is a joke.

> > > 5) Can't decap while stealth is a joke.

> > > 6) Expensive weapon skills (e.g. Sw/P) is a joke.

> > > 7) 12 init pool is a joke.

> > > 8) Not having separate init pool for a different weapon set is a joke.

> > > 9) Only using one end of the staff when attacking is a joke. Daredevil should use both end of the staff when attacking and this will make the attack speed a lot faster.

> > > 10) Very few weapon set selection is a joke.

> > >

> > > I play all professions and the Thief is the most restrictive profession compared to all the other professions. I cannot find the same freedom I get from the Guardian or Necro in the Thief. Playing a Thief is like playing with balls and chains on both of my wrists.

> >

> > But why don't you use the ball and chain as a weapon?

>

> Due to the nerfs, not strong enough to swing it.

 

Not with that attitude.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> @"Jack Redline.5379" @"Jugglemonkey.8741"

>

> It’s not a Daredevil build it’s a Deadeye build. I’ve also changed it a bit to reflect the meta. It was last a Daredevil build during HoT and pre-Unhindered Combatant nerf.

>

> Currently it’s a hybrid build based around torment and bleed with a decent crit rate.

>

> I’m not sure where you’ve been encounting P/D thieves because I see one may once every few months at most. And most are just in arena practicing for giggles.

>

> Edit: On my old old condi build all I’d do would be to load up condi and sheath my weapons. Flail, flail, dead. Of course in team fights I was better off timing Body Shot to lock them down at key moments. Evade spam only takes a Daredevil so far with the right timing.

 

Yeah, apologies, I knew you played something different to me but couldn't remember specifics so I just responded on a p/d level irrespective of elite.

 

> @"Ensign.2189" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > I'm fine with this being a thing, there is a point when the nerfs are just because they have nothing else to put in the patch notes tho. Pretty sure the swipe change started off like this.

>

> Nah, when they have nothing else to put in the patch notes they buff random unused stuff. That's where the P/D change came from for instance.

>

> Every nerf is poorly received by the community, enough so that they don't nerf anything without a compelling reason. There is lots of abstract complaining about power creep, but players strongly prefer every detail of power creep to any move curtailing it.

 

Yeah, that's also fair. It has just felt more arbitrary than usual lately, that's all. I'm fine with power creep like stealth on dodge being nerfed, I guess it often feels like ours gets nerfed but other classes get a pass for whatever reason. Frankly I'm probably a bit jaded at this point, so take what I'm saying with a pinch of salt etc.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> It has just felt more arbitrary than usual lately, that's all. I'm fine with power creep like stealth on dodge being nerfed, I guess it often feels like ours gets nerfed but other classes get a pass for whatever reason.

 

Such things that annoy me are the so called "bug fixes" that had been around for years... "bugs" that were actually very useful to the Thief, but didn't really cause it to be overpowered as the Thief was still struggling. Such "bugs" as the ability to control the distance of Heartseeker based on camera orientation and the ability to jump-Infiltrator's Strike without having to port back. Those things were much more like "features" than bugs. Personally, I believe the Thief needs MORE of such features/options just to allow it to adapt more to the situation.

 

What's next? Removing the ability to jump-Infiltrator's Arrow so we can't shoot over low obstacles?

[getalifeturd.8139]

Arenanet being in control of its balance.

[bluri.2653]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

>

> Dude please dont praise Tornment p/d so much. It is not as good as you portrait it. Srsly i have played against MANY p/d thieves. Some of them using your build and it isnt working as much as my d/d is. I am not saying it is not good build. But it is not that good it would need so much praise. Also it is annoying to fight. It is not like it would kill you every time. But it is rly annoying. Not to mention Tronment and bleeds are the first to go out with cleanse on dodge so... yea thats what i mean

 

And ur build is good? Bahahah

[Westenev.5289]

One thing that annoys me about Thief isn't the thief itself, but rather the powercreep of other classes. The Thief seems to be balanced with a fragile speedster theme in mind, but a lot of classes can maintain swiftness/superspeed to catch (or at least, keep up with) a thief built for speed, all the while maintaining a bruiser build that can shrug off a thief's burst.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> >

> And ur build is good? Bahahah

 

Well. At least it is MY BUILD

copy cat much? :3

[Barzah.8019]

1. Stealth mechanic are wonky in general, make it last a while then everyone and their dad will make permastealth build for the lul. Shorten the duration on the other hand will make a spec that actually relied on stealth suffer, hence forcing them to take shadow art as core

2. Pistol and rifle doesn't have reliable area attack which obviously core on GW2, bring back ricochet talent pls

[Jack Redline.5379]

@"saerni.2584" Mate i have just figured out why i disagree with you so much on viability of p/d condi build. It is not only cuz I rly think it is not that strong I just figured out it is the playstyle that I disagree with.

P/D condi build brings the Tic Toc aspect of s/d into Condi Thief ranks.

That is why I disagree so much...

Cuz you bring that blink in and out while using Condi as dmg and thwt is taking away the fighter aspect out of it.

The condi builds are the only builds where Thief needs his opponent to come to him and then outsmartand defeat him.

That is why I play d/d Trapper which Bluri so despises. Because it is challenging and fun and if you learn how to use it it is extremely rewarding. And that is why i always will disagree with p/d, because it sucks the fun right out of condi thief. The only Brawler build we still have.

If you disagree i understand but just pls try playing couple of games on my build i have posted it multiple times. I am sure you will see the difference. I have tried yours and I have figured this out so I just wanted to let you know.

 

EDIT

just to be sure i put it here again just like that let me know if you try

 

 

ithttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAV4Yn8lCNmitNB+OB0PhltiybCqRzJ/zP9apYAUWA-jZxBQBA4IAQxyAY4hAYw9HK5FAAA

 

First utility can be swapped for Signet of Agility or Scorpion wire ir Bandit's Defense (this one mainly against Boonbeasts abs Sellbreakers)

Trickery could have Bountiful theft in it in case you fight many spellbreakers or dragonhunters or holos

 

thx if you do if no its okay

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> @"saerni.2584" Mate i have just figured out why i disagree with you so much on viability of p/d condi build. It is not only cuz I rly think it is not that strong I just figured out it is the playstyle that I disagree with.

> P/D condi build brings the Tic Toc aspect of s/d into Condi Thief ranks.

> That is why I disagree so much...

> Cuz you bring that blink in and out while using Condi as dmg and thwt is taking away the fighter aspect out of it.

> The condi builds are the only builds where Thief needs his opponent to come to him and then outsmartand defeat him.

> That is why I play d/d Trapper which Bluri so despises. Because it is challenging and fun and if you learn how to use it it is extremely rewarding. And that is why i always will disagree with p/d, because it sucks the fun right out of condi thief. The only Brawler build we still have.

> If you disagree i understand but just pls try playing couple of games on my build i have posted it multiple times. I am sure you will see the difference. I have tried yours and I have figured this out so I just wanted to let you know.

>

> EDIT

> just to be sure i put it here again just like that let me know if you try

>

>

> ithttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAV4Yn8lCNmitNB+OB0PhltiybCqRzJ/zP9apYAUWA-jZxBQBA4IAQxyAY4hAYw9HK5FAAA

>

> First utility can be swapped for Signet of Agility or Scorpion wire ir Bandit's Defense (this one mainly against Boonbeasts abs Sellbreakers)

> Trickery could have Bountiful theft in it in case you fight many spellbreakers or dragonhunters or holos

>

> thx if you do if no its okay

 

That you prefer one build type over another hardly means the build therefore better or more interesting to play. I have both a d/d Condi build and a p/d condi build and prefer the playstyle of the p/d build recognizing it has many advantages over the other.

 

There a wide swathe of people who do not like Thief playstyle at all and avoid playing theif. This does not translate to all of those builds being better. To each their own.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" Mate i have just figured out why i disagree with you so much on viability of p/d condi build. It is not only cuz I rly think it is not that strong I just figured out it is the playstyle that I disagree with.

> > P/D condi build brings the Tic Toc aspect of s/d into Condi Thief ranks.

> > That is why I disagree so much...

> > Cuz you bring that blink in and out while using Condi as dmg and thwt is taking away the fighter aspect out of it.

> > The condi builds are the only builds where Thief needs his opponent to come to him and then outsmartand defeat him.

> > That is why I play d/d Trapper which Bluri so despises. Because it is challenging and fun and if you learn how to use it it is extremely rewarding. And that is why i always will disagree with p/d, because it sucks the fun right out of condi thief. The only Brawler build we still have.

> > If you disagree i understand but just pls try playing couple of games on my build i have posted it multiple times. I am sure you will see the difference. I have tried yours and I have figured this out so I just wanted to let you know.

> >

> > EDIT

> > just to be sure i put it here again just like that let me know if you try

> >

> >

> > ithttp://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAV4Yn8lCNmitNB+OB0PhltiybCqRzJ/zP9apYAUWA-jZxBQBA4IAQxyAY4hAYw9HK5FAAA

> >

> > First utility can be swapped for Signet of Agility or Scorpion wire ir Bandit's Defense (this one mainly against Boonbeasts abs Sellbreakers)

> > Trickery could have Bountiful theft in it in case you fight many spellbreakers or dragonhunters or holos

> >

> > thx if you do if no its okay

>

> That you prefer one build type over another hardly means the build therefore better or more interesting to play. I have both a d/d Condi build and a p/d condi build and prefer the playstyle of the p/d build recognizing it has many advantages over the other.

>

> There a wide swathe of people who do not like Thief playstyle at all and avoid playing theif. This does not translate to all of those builds being better. To each their own.

 

I said i do not underestimate power of the build i said that it is required to play it the way which is not rly a brawler and that takes away the form a condi thief has. condi thief is strongly based on brawl an smarts ab staying alive cloae to enemy

p/d takes this away that is what i said

and that is why i disagree with it

there are rly only two condi builds for thuef rn and only one of them is still rly a brawling one abd p/d is not the one

[saerni.2584]

I brawl a bit with mine. Shadowstrike isn’t my only skill. I use Sneak Attack and other skills more often, especially since the change to Shadowstrike.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I brawl a bit with mine. Shadowstrike isn’t my only skill. I use Sneak Attack and other skills more often, especially since the change to Shadowstrike.

 

dude i know but it is stil poke run away poke. That is not brawling. Not to mention projectiles are useless agaisnt anything that can evade block or have aegis on it

I am not saying it is bad build but it is not a brawler type of build. And that is why it is not 100% functional in its condi purpouse.

All condi based builds require you to be within reach

I can literally name all condi (normal ones ofc not poison p/p DE and stuff) builds in this game and they all have one single thing in common. They all have to stay within range of their attacks to be able to upkeep the condi (except for scourge cuz DUH Anet at its finest)

And that is why p/d cant be better than d/d. Not saying it is bad or anything i am sure it gives good results but the point is still that w/o the melee range to apply the condi and with the fact your condi are applicable by ranged weapon it cant simply get that efficient.

Only 2 weapons in this game I can say is ranged based condi weapon is long bow since Berserker and i guess Dragonhunter and shorbow on anything that has it.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > I brawl a bit with mine. Shadowstrike isn’t my only skill. I use Sneak Attack and other skills more often, especially since the change to Shadowstrike.

>

> dude i know but it is stil poke run away poke. That is not brawling. Not to mention projectiles are useless agaisnt anything that can evade block or have aegis on it

> I am not saying it is bad build but it is not a brawler type of build. And that is why it is not 100% functional in its condi purpouse.

> All condi based builds require you to be within reach

> I can literally name all condi (normal ones ofc not poison p/p DE and stuff) builds in this game and they all have one single thing in common. They all have to stay within range of their attacks to be able to upkeep the condi (except for scourge cuz DUH Anet at its finest)

> And that is why p/d cant be better than d/d. Not saying it is bad or anything i am sure it gives good results but the point is still that w/o the melee range to apply the condi and with the fact your condi are applicable by ranged weapon it cant simply get that efficient.

> Only 2 weapons in this game I can say is ranged based condi weapon is long bow since Berserker and i guess Dragonhunter and shorbow on anything that has it.

 

It depends how you use it. If you use it in a deadeye build, you can build up 20+ stacks of torment and bleed with good cover condis pretty easily. A deadeye aiming pistol 2 immobs for the end of your dodges to ensure his torment lands, using mercy to land double steal condis from stealth and using stealth with SA to keep your damaging condis off him will kill your trapper D/D easily as it has the advantage of out-ranging your attacks while also denying your cleanse through evades.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > I brawl a bit with mine. Shadowstrike isn’t my only skill. I use Sneak Attack and other skills more often, especially since the change to Shadowstrike.

>

> dude i know but it is stil poke run away poke. That is not brawling. Not to mention projectiles are useless agaisnt anything that can evade block or have aegis on it

> I am not saying it is bad build but it is not a brawler type of build. And that is why it is not 100% functional in its condi purpouse.

> All condi based builds require you to be within reach

> I can literally name all condi (normal ones ofc not poison p/p DE and stuff) builds in this game and they all have one single thing in common. They all have to stay within range of their attacks to be able to upkeep the condi (except for scourge cuz DUH Anet at its finest)

> And that is why p/d cant be better than d/d. Not saying it is bad or anything i am sure it gives good results but the point is still that w/o the melee range to apply the condi and with the fact your condi are applicable by ranged weapon it cant simply get that efficient.

> Only 2 weapons in this game I can say is ranged based condi weapon is long bow since Berserker and i guess Dragonhunter and shorbow on anything that has it.

 

I run in to get an additional Shadowstrike. I jump out to avoid melee retaliation. Much like a dodge but as a weapon skill. I also use my other weapon skills to control the battlefield.

 

I think melee condi build have their place. I’m also not going to go so far as to say one is always better than another. But I’d point out that with range you have the ability to always apply pressure outside of projectile denial. With melee you can be kited and with range you can be off-point and still a threat.

 

Another thing, I can apply condi on my Auto, my Stealth Attack, on Shadowstrike, on Repeater and on Dancing Dagger. That diversity doesn’t make it better but it does make it competitive with D/D condi.