Your DPS is Trash

[Vinceman.4572]

@"zionophir.6845", some straight facts. You can prove some of them by yourself:

 

1. arcdps tracks the actual damage per second done to an encounter/group of enemies once you start the fight. --> visible when having arcdps installed

 

2. If you are in a group or a squad the counting will start once a player is in combat. Players that aren't fighting are doing 0 dmg (per second). This is how the tool works (and the combat log as well btw.) --> visible when having arcdps installed

 

3. The damage (per second) can be displayed via the game chat window (lower left panel when using standard settings). --> visible without arcdps

 

4. If you have arcdps installed **AND** the chat window adjusted to the damage stats you will see that the numbers of the ingame log and the arcdps numbers are the same. The difference is abysmal and can be neglected. --> visible when having arcdps installed

 

5. If you try the golem with a mate and both of you would practice one after each other and assuming both of you are using the identical rotation - the numbers would be identical as well - for arcdps and the ingame combat log.

 

6. and maybe not a fact but: If you think the numbers are not correct it wouldn't matter. It's the only criterion players have. Since fact 4 applies both numbers are identical in scale and players have an overview over the actual (dps) performance with the tool. I think you agree to me that the ingame combat log is terrible to observe this is why competent programmers like deltaconnected invented arcdps.

 

7. Your attempt on the veteran guard in WVW shows a number to others but can't be compared in a significant way. You would need to have other players under the same circumstances with the exact same buffs like 9 might, vigor, swiftness and others that ran out during the fight before you hit the skill 2 and/or for example trait specific things.

This is why players chose to use the golem because everyone can use it the same way in a closed environment. It's like research in science - you always want to have the same conditions for your experiments otherwise you'll get different results ending up in having none valid information at all.

 

8. I've never sold a raid boss but gave some free boss kills away to other players with my squad. Yes, a fact. But what I encountered very often in the past and also a fact: Lots of fails because players came into raids and tried to kill bosses with their own builds or builds from guides they weren't able to execute properly.

[Kain Francois.4328]

> @"BRNBRITO.9624" said:

> > @"Kain Francois.4328" said:

> > Honestly, I think the amount of "your dmg is bad" groups are grossly exaggerated. Most groups I encounter are happy as long as you stay quiet and just do the mechanics properly.

> >

> > Any group nitpicking dps in t3 fractal is an isolated incident. Rather, I would check their AP and see how much they have. Chances are it's just some noobs who think they are baddass because they imitate the raiders, but are too new to raid themselves.

>

> AP isn't related to skill at all though, i got fractal god with a bit over 5k AP and always been a tryhard pve'r on MMO's but never cared for achievements, even 40k AP or fractal god/raid titles don't mean much IMO. Started playing jan/2018 but was out for 5 months so been playing for roughly 1 year.

 

Correlation is not causation, but correlation is correlation.

[Safandula.8723]

this whole topic is about 1 ill guy, arguing with rest of forum, lol

[Sykper.6583]

I thought to come back to this thread and saw the pages blow up, thinking there was something real interesting brought up.

 

My expectations were dashed.

[Sigmoid.7082]

This thread used to be interesting and have substance. I feel its been so far de-railed its teetering on absolute worthlessness. I was genuinely enjoying the discussion that was going on. Its also likely far to late to get back on topic.

[mindcircus.1506]

@"zionophir.6845" In your rally against DPS meters you have betrayed several fundamental misunderstandings of this game. You have actually made the point for a lot of people why DPS meters are a positive tool for this community. Your toxicity in this thread has zero value.

The longer you go on desperately clinging and posing , the better DPS meters look.

[zionophir.6845]

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> this whole topic is about 1 ill guy, arguing with rest of forum, lol

 

always been the case.

 

and i don't wonder why..

 

METAFAMOUS

 

lel..

 

and are you not wondering why they are DEFENDING ARCDPS TO DEATH? that by itself leads to some funny situation that they are in atm..

 

lel.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> This thread used to be interesting and have substance. I feel its been so far de-railed its teetering on absolute worthlessness. I was genuinely enjoying the discussion that was going on. Its also likely far to late to get back on topic.

 

While it wasn't the most constructive turn, it did show to me something consistent with what I have observed many times ingame over the years, and that is that hostility and toxicity rarely comes from the hardcore crowd using tools like ArcDPS, but rather those that feel like they are too good for it, while in reality being the ones that have quite lacklustre performance and understanding of the game while trying to make up for that with arrogance and hostility.

 

It's quite similar in PvP actually. The ones who tilt and flame the quickest are usually the ones making the misplays that are losing the matches themselves.

 

After 7 years of playing I can count the number of times where I've seen an actually good hardcore player (presumably) using tools like ArcDPS being the ones to flame people on one hand.

I have never seen someone been called out, getting asked to leave or getting kicked for their DPS unless they drastically underperformed to a point of being behind supports.

And at that point it's simply a matter of being disrespectful to the other 4-9 players and the person should either practice before joining such content, or doesn't care and is maliciously dragging the group down/wanting to get carried.

 

Using ArcDPS to identify such players in a group is vital, as without it nobody knows where the issues lie and what happens is that people start to discriminate by class or irrelevant information like AP etc., with well performing but offmeta or new players getting on the chopping block over the actual problem player which then keeps failing the content for the entire group, while someone who actually put the effort in got kicked unfairly simply because no one was able to check their performance.

 

That's why I would not only argue that DPS meters are ethical, but actually a positive influence on the community.

 

To anyone who is scared of DPS Meters, I highly recommend just trying it out yourself. There is nothing to be afraid of.

When they first came to GW2, I had similar worries until I just tried them myself which led to me vastly improving as player and getting into the hardcore content I now enjoy the most.

More importantly, don't waste your time and energy getting agitated and inciting people about something you don't know or understand just because of some irrational fears about people seeing how much damage you do.

 

Just try it out, it's interesting stuff that can give you some new perspectives and lead you to enjoy new and different content as well as challenging yourself.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

The fact this thread went on as long as it did is evidence dps meters should be banned. Anet should take the simple stance to end all of it; if you can't play nicely with the toy, you don't get the toy, simple as that. This thread isn't the 1st rodeo that's popped up, nor will it be the last (which again is evidence, they should be banned). It's only going to be a matter of time, just you watch.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The fact this thread went on as long as it did is evidence dps meters should be banned. Anet should take the simple stance to end all of it; **if you can't play nicely with the toy, you don't get the toy, simple as that**. This thread isn't the 1st rodeo that's popped up, nor will it be the last (which again is evidence, they should be banned). It's only going to be a matter of time, just you watch.

 

With that assumption, anet should just delete the entire game...

[Safandula.8723]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The fact this thread went on as long as it did is evidence dps meters should be banned. Anet should take the simple stance to end all of it; if you can't play nicely with the toy, you don't get the toy, simple as that. This thread isn't the 1st rodeo that's popped up, nor will it be the last (which again is evidence, they should be banned). It's only going to be a matter of time, just you watch.

 

lol no. half of this thread should be cut out. first of all, dps meter is rly important tool that help u verify ur rotation, and optimize ur stuff, fact that some ppl do dps racing and flame others make this tool bad? no

if someone kill a guy with a knife it doesnt mean, knifes should be forbidden, it just means there is something in human nature that ordered him to do so. As Yasi said at start,without arc, ppl would start to flame party mistakes basing only on composition, and everyone would flame themselfes even more.

tldr, ppl are stupid

[Asum.4960]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The fact this thread went on as long as it did is evidence dps meters should be banned. Anet should take the simple stance to end all of it; if you can't play nicely with the toy, you don't get the toy, simple as that. This thread isn't the 1st rodeo that's popped up, nor will it be the last (which again is evidence, they should be banned). It's only going to be a matter of time, just you watch.

 

It's not the people with the toy that aren't playing nicely though. It's the people who for some reason don't want to get the toy who want to smash everybody else's so nobody gets to have it.

 

Every time this comes up it turns out most of the people complaining the loudest about toxicity in Raids or DPS Meters either have never actually even tried to join a Raid or never bothered to look for and join training groups, entering experienced groups wholly unprepared to then complain that those groups were the problem.

 

The other times it's extreme niche cases of indeed toxic players which the rest of us just moves on from to another group and which would increase in toxicity should things like DPS Meters be banned.

All the while the people who actually care about their performance and contribution to a group, striving to improve, would lose an invaluable tool.

 

It just doesn't make sense on any level.

[Metasynaptic.1093]

Some people here are suggesting that benchmarks are not created by arenanet. This is false. A benchmark is defined by the time allowed for the fight vs the health pool of the boss, eg 8 minutes, 40 million health. That's the benchmark.

 

Anything else is merely aspirational.

[Warscythes.9307]

> @"Metasynaptic.1093" said:

> Some people here are suggesting that benchmarks are not created by arenanet. This is false. A benchmark is defined by the time allowed for the fight vs the health pool of the boss, eg 8 minutes, 40 million health. That's the benchmark.

>

> Anything else is merely aspirational.

 

When people are talking about the benchmark, they are talking about the potential highest dps by each class which are done by actual players themselves. Anet doesn't do that for us. They just provide us with the training golem. Players would have used infinite hp golem except it would mess up with some traits or skills that do extra under 50%, so we just agree on a number and use that as the standard.

[Metasynaptic.1093]

That isn't a benchmark. A benchmark is a standardized test applied to some given scenario. If you could save a long macro, share that macro to a thousand different mirages, then collate the results, you have benchmarked mirages. Some guy with 10ms ping beating his rotato against a golem isn't a benchmark. It's a highscore.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> The fact this thread went on as long as it did is evidence dps meters should be banned. Anet should take the simple stance to end all of it; if you can't play nicely with the toy, you don't get the toy, simple as that. This thread isn't the 1st rodeo that's popped up, nor will it be the last (which again is evidence, they should be banned). It's only going to be a matter of time, just you watch.

 

Only there is no evidence given, even in this thread. Only this:

> I've seen particular players, not naming names, not even playing dps but at the end of an engagement will call out people for DPS that's not even that low at the end of a fight and in some cases even kick based on that.

 

I'm sorry but anyone can say anything they want on a forum. Supporting it though with "evidence", as you call it, is another story.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Metasynaptic.1093" said:

> That isn't a benchmark. A benchmark is a standardized test applied to some given scenario. If you could save a long macro, share that macro to a thousand different mirages, then collate the results, you have benchmarked mirages. Some guy with 10ms ping beating his rotato against a golem isn't a benchmark. It's a highscore.

 

You might want to update your vocabulary:

> 1a : something that serves as a standard by which others may be measured or judged

- https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/benchmark

 

Strait up the very first definition in Merrian Webster.

 

When someone developes a build, his skill to exectute said build as well as the build itsself are benchmarks to which others can compare. Both in difference of build, skill or execution. Usually as many factors as possible are kept similar as to not taint the result or information value gained.

[lare.5129]

Someone is dps and don't like arcdps and think that this is toxic source ? NO, there is many possibilities check is without any tool,

 

if arcdps is absent at all all this is no any problem on same phase let one dps to his dps on miniboss/boss, check time manually by look on clock near monitor, and kick player if it looks long. So in this more we have more dps requirements, to ensure that dps is real good. So if someone is near normal he will get kick in this hard dps check.

No toxic - kick and be happy.

[Henry.5713]

How dare these tools provide a rather accurate and transparent estimate of individual performance (in terms of DPS)...

We should probably also rally to have the display of boons removed as they tend to make people complain about specific players on their boon supports. And then how about we demand bosses are turned invisible so those poor tanks will no longer be blamed for their bad movement or tanking positions by those mean elitists? Haven't thought about how to protect healers yet as removing healthbars does little to stop the complaing if people end up dying.

 

[Offair.2563]

If it wasn't a dps meter they would have found and used another method to critisize and troll/salty about.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"lare.5129" said:

> Someone is dps and don't like arcdps and think that this is toxic source ? NO, there is many possibilities check is without any tool,

As certain person in this very topic has shown, without such a tool you can easily be misled about your own effectiveness and think it is much higher than it really is.

 

Personally, before dpsm meters I haven't realized as well how bad the disparity between the "meta" and average players is. I had known it was here, of course, but was completely unprepared for how massive the gap was. The game itself doesn't do a good job in highlighting that.

(mind you, i believe that such a disparity is a really serious problem and suggests some flaws with the game design, but that's not what we're talking about here. All we need to know here is that it does exist, it's absolutely massive, and the game doesn't easily let you see that)

 

> if arcdps is absent at all all this is no any problem on same phase let one dps to his dps on miniboss/boss, check time manually by look on clock near monitor, and kick player if it looks long.

Yes, you could do it that way, but who would want to do 6-7 such checks before every fight? So, what actually happened when DPS meters weren't yet a thing was for commander to estimate the whole group dps on boss. And if it was too low, it _wasn't_ the lowest dps player that got kicked (because, unless someone's been making really obvious mistakes, there was no real way to see how good the players were in relation to each other). It was the non-tempest player that usually took the blame for one of the tempests not being good enough.

 

You know, i am a quite casual player, and probably many of the raiders present can tell you what is my stance on raids, elitism and content difficulty levels (and why they disagree with me). And i still think that blaming DPS meters is at best misguided, because nothing we speak of here is their fault. There are other reasons for all of it - reasons that exist completely independently from the meters and won't disappear if those were to be forbidden.

 

[zealex.9410]

Popcorn.jpg

 

Toxicity will always exist, banning dps meters wont make it go away or reduce it. What dps meters do at least is create "toxicity" based around real time facts. Thats facrs that i can at least look back on and see if i can improve upon or not.

 

I would certainly pick that every day of the week over the mines of salt and baseless toxicity that ppl generate in the ow or pre meter instance content.

 

[The one to Rule.2593]

I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"The one to Rule.2593" said:

> I actually raid fairly often. I have both the legendary armor and the ring. I do tend to agree that raiding was much better before meters and when everyone didn't care so much about getting 30k dps. Since meters became pretty mainstream this sort of behavior is not uncommon and people who say it doesnt happen are either lying, or don't pug often.

 

It was impossible to pug raids with necro, dh, dps mesmer, dps ranger, rev after the nerf or basically anthing that wasn't considered meta like tempest or thief. Ye such great times back then.

Dps meters exist for quite a long time now. It was just bgdm instead of arc back then.

[Mordayn.6198]

Yeah, those builds had issues getting into raids before meters because people were assuming what the best builds were and weren't able to test them accurately. Since then Anet has put a DPS meter in game on the training golem. So even without Arc we would be able to benchmark build dps on the golem and practice rotations so that argument is no longer valid. As I've stated before, I use Arc for my personal dps monitoring. The issue isn't with this part of the tool. It's the ability to view other player's dps that is causing the toxic behavior we've been seeing in PUGs. A more valid monitor for player skill in raids isn't are they hitting benchmark level dps, it should be are they doing mechanics, are the reviving people, are they going down constantly or are they staying alive. DPS meters in some cases can cause people to focus more on dps numbers than anything else and they'll have high dps numbers but don't res and sometimes even die because they're trying to squeak out that little extra bit of rotation.

 

With the existence of the training golem to test the viability of builds that is no longer a valid argument for the need of Arc. As I've stated multiple times before I'm not anti DPS meter, I'm anti it being used as a tool to be toxic to other players. If the meter wasn't able to see other player dps it would actually be a lot healthier for the game.