Swagger.1459 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 @"Whiteout.1975" You want to needlessly complicate the way aoes function. The devs aren’t going to overhaul aoes in these ways and make changes to skills that will ultimately cause even more lag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 different aoe fields should terminate the other type of aoe fields in the ground, imo that’s needed as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > different aoe fields should terminate the other type of aoe fields in the ground, imo that’s needed as well. > That’s not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluberblasen.9684 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 remove all aoe fields which you can just " put on the ground" make them all projectiles remove all deflect skills and reduce the count of block skills, or make them all arcane shield "styles" with can only blocks 3 attack (for example) maybe 5 attacks. edit: another good idea - not for all maybe only for me. remove all " passive " blocks - only classes with a REAL shield equipped can block ( + Elementalist " arcane" shield ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > @"Whiteout.1975" > > You want to needlessly complicate the way aoes function. The devs aren’t going to overhaul aoes in these ways and make changes to skills that will ultimately cause even more lag. > No. I'm just not afraid to explore past the default way of thinking. An idea != a want... Because that's what these are... Idea's. My actual "want" atm however, is to reduce AoE spam to where multiple (tons of) AoE's are not going off at once. Resulting in a sea of red. Besides that... Thank You for your opinion on what the devs won't do and how they view idea's they probably didn't read yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > different aoe fields should terminate the other type of aoe fields in the ground, imo that’s needed as well. > This is an interesting concept to consider :+1: Might be useful to some degree :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > snips weaker aoe favors the bigger group. its called an ambush. its called skill and coordination. also I never said I would increase the aoe cap for all skills. I would actually decrease it for some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Whiteout.1975" > > > > You want to needlessly complicate the way aoes function. The devs aren’t going to overhaul aoes in these ways and make changes to skills that will ultimately cause even more lag. > > > > No. I'm just not afraid to explore past the default way of thinking. > > An idea != a want... Because that's what these are... Idea's. My actual "want" atm however, is to reduce AoE spam to where multiple (tons of) AoE's are not going off at once. Resulting in a sea of red. > > Besides that... Thank You for your opinion on what the devs won't do and how they view idea's they probably didn't read yet. The idea doesn’t reduce the amount of aoes... What it does do is add to lag. Your aoe skill idea... 1-Visual warning indicator to alert a player that an aoe is being placed. 2- New aoe skill timer that reduces the radius multiple times until it expires. 3- So now each aoe has additional calculations the system has to track, more so than what happens now... Result... Devs waste time and resources overhauling how every ground target aoe functions, but we still have the same amount of aoes being used that now put additional strains on the system to calculate in real time... Great idea, and great way to add more lag! This is much better than, let’s say, reducing the target cap so there are less calculations that need to be made, while saving some time and money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > snips > weaker aoe favors the bigger group. > its called an ambush. its called skill and coordination. > also I never said I would increase the aoe cap for all skills. I would actually decrease it for some. Bigger groups have more boons, heals, attacks... everything... You think it’s hard now? Just wait until aoes are more potent... Maybe spvp is more your cup of tea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 As noted above, AoEs having a flight time before landing at the location marked on the ground already exists in the game. This does not add any more lag, and is actually less intensive on the system because it is not a persistent effect. It instead does one shot of damage or application of conditions to targets that did not move out of the circle after 3/4th or a second of delay. Adjusting player AoE fields to not be persistent ticking effects would greatly help reduce the glowing fields that last 5 to 15 seconds or autoupdating ticks of conditions (durations and strength all need to be checked each tick, then applied, and so on). The proposed idea of one shot, all the damage or conditions applied at once, doesn’t change or add damage to any of the abilities. It does improve expectation of damage when you can keep an opponent in it for the time it will take for the skill to land and adds value to landing immobilize, cripple, slow, or chill effects. Compressing the effects into one duration for multiple tick effects also means cleanses become more powerful, and less individual instances of boons with varying durations (for some fields that do both conditions/damage and boons currently). A few persistent fields are not bad, but every AoE in the game right now seems to be a persistent field. Also, far too many of our skills are targeted, instant reward button presses, I personally like having to try to land skillshots and feel rewarded when doing so. The reward is setting up a shot with a number of actions or predicting where an enemy is going to be; it just feels good to land something that is not a targeted one button press easy win. Not every skill has to be such, but the stronger effects should be a skill shot or have a travel time to land, instant targeted effects should be less rewarding as they are more reliable to land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel.8427 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Personally, I'd like to see a lot of things done to AoEs. My shortlist: 1) The radius of all persistent AoE fields reduced. 2) Durations decreased on most persistent AoE fields (anything that lasts longer than 3 seconds), but non-damage efficacy increased to compensate (cleanse, boonrip, healing etc) 3) Target limit increased/removed on persistent AoE fields. 4) Damage re-evaluated for all multi-target skills. Single target abilities should hit harder than multi target and melee range skills should hit harder than ranged as a general rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Whiteout.1975" > > > > > > You want to needlessly complicate the way aoes function. The devs aren’t going to overhaul aoes in these ways and make changes to skills that will ultimately cause even more lag. > > > > > > > No. I'm just not afraid to explore past the default way of thinking. > > > > An idea != a want... Because that's what these are... Idea's. My actual "want" atm however, is to reduce AoE spam to where multiple (tons of) AoE's are not going off at once. Resulting in a sea of red. > > > > Besides that... Thank You for your opinion on what the devs won't do and how they view idea's they probably didn't read yet. > > The idea doesn’t reduce the amount of aoes... What it does do is add to lag. > > Your aoe skill idea... > > 1-Visual warning indicator to alert a player that an aoe is being placed. > > 2- New aoe skill timer that reduces the radius multiple times until it expires. > > 3- So now each aoe has additional calculations the system has to track, more so than what happens now... > > Result... Devs waste time and resources overhauling how every ground target aoe functions, but we still have the same amount of aoes being used that now put additional strains on the system to calculate in real time... Great idea, and great way to add more lag! This is much better than, let’s say, reducing the target cap so there are less calculations that need to be made, while saving some time and money... No... That's your idea... of my AoE idea's. 1.) Isn't really my Idea. I believe @"Delofasht.4231" was the first to mention it. I'm just agreeing with them because the idea looks wonderfully useful. Thus, I linked a classic gw2 video that helps demonstrate the usefulness in what they are talking about... [https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA "https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA"). If I were to give the idea a name personally... I would call it "AoE Prescience". 2.) I never said "multiple times". I said (from OP) "AoE Downscaling... Certain AoE's may reduce in radius through a "combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time". In order to receive **a more desirable radius** if too problematic in it's initial state." How far the initial radius reduces... is dependent up what is "desirable". It could be "multiple time"... It might not be. Depends on what is desired. 3.) & onward... Just read @"Delofasht.4231" reply because they actually understand. Thus, this is your imagination coupled with misunderstanding. However, Thank You for better explaining yourself this time :+1: I'll be honest here though... Your idea makes it harder to kill bigger groups, further promotes stacking. and AoE's still are lasting longer... With no warning sign of future AoE activity (where the AoE will be) to better react to. Your idea doesn't even attempt to allow AoE's to go away faster. You still have the potential "sea of red" just sitting there waiting to make calculations. . Also, AoE's still have to calculate who not to hit; especially given that targets can quickly move. Thus, "There are just too many AOEs being flung around" still holds true. Which, often makes the combat a dull laggy spam fest. I don't think anyone wants that. We may as well be playing "The floor is lava". Along with that, you can just reread your initially linked post in case you forgot about the points people made against it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes It's a complicated problem. The answer should not be expected to be so transparent as "Oh just adjust the targets lower" to fix it. If the answer was so cut and dry it would have been done by now. It's been a very long time since @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: "There are just too many AOEs being flung around". Despite WvW track record... Trust me the whole AoE target would have been handled already if it were that easy. Anet can easily tell what it's like to hit 3 targets vs 5 with a skill or skills. Let's not make the "target" suggestion by you more dramatic then what it actually is; to be fair here :+1: To top it off. Anet has already went against this way of thinking by allowing certain AoE skills to hit 10 targets as a opposed to the typical 3-5. And has been this way for a fairly long time now. So make of that what you will ?♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Whiteout.1975" > > > > > > > > You want to needlessly complicate the way aoes function. The devs aren’t going to overhaul aoes in these ways and make changes to skills that will ultimately cause even more lag. > > > > > > > > > > No. I'm just not afraid to explore past the default way of thinking. > > > > > > An idea != a want... Because that's what these are... Idea's. My actual "want" atm however, is to reduce AoE spam to where multiple (tons of) AoE's are not going off at once. Resulting in a sea of red. > > > > > > Besides that... Thank You for your opinion on what the devs won't do and how they view idea's they probably didn't read yet. > > > > The idea doesn’t reduce the amount of aoes... What it does do is add to lag. > > > > Your aoe skill idea... > > > > 1-Visual warning indicator to alert a player that an aoe is being placed. > > > > 2- New aoe skill timer that reduces the radius multiple times until it expires. > > > > 3- So now each aoe has additional calculations the system has to track, more so than what happens now... > > > > Result... Devs waste time and resources overhauling how every ground target aoe functions, but we still have the same amount of aoes being used that now put additional strains on the system to calculate in real time... Great idea, and great way to add more lag! This is much better than, let’s say, reducing the target cap so there are less calculations that need to be made, while saving some time and money... > > No... That's your idea... of my AoE idea's. > > 1.) Isn't really my Idea. I believe @"Delofasht.4231" was the first to mention it. I'm just agreeing with them because the idea looks wonderfully useful. Thus, I linked a classic gw2 video that helps demonstrate the usefulness in what they are talking about... [https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA "https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA"). If I were to give the idea a name personally... I would call it "AoE Prescience". > > 2.) I never said "multiple times". I said (from OP) "AoE Downscaling... Certain AoE's may reduce in radius through a "combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time". In order to receive **a more desirable radius** if too problematic in it's initial state." > How far the initial radius reduces... is dependent up what is "desirable". It could be "multiple time"... It might not be. Depends on what is desired. > > 3.) & onward... Just read @"Delofasht.4231" reply because they actually understand. Thus, this is your imagination coupled with misunderstanding. > > However, Thank You for better explaining yourself this time :+1: > > I'll be honest here though... > Your idea makes it harder to kill bigger groups, further promotes stacking. and AoE's still are lasting longer... With no warning sign of future AoE activity (where the AoE will be) to better react to. Your idea doesn't even attempt to allow AoE's to go away faster. You still have the potential "sea of red" just sitting there waiting to make calculations. . Also, AoE's still have to calculate who not to hit; especially given that targets can quickly move. Thus, "There are just too many AOEs being flung around" still holds true. Which, often makes the combat a dull laggy spam fest. I don't think anyone wants that. We may as well be playing "The floor is lava". > Along with that, you can just reread your initially linked post in case you forgot about the points people made against it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes > > It's a complicated problem. The answer should not be expected to be so transparent as "Oh just adjust the targets lower" to fix it. If the answer was so cut and dry it would have been done by now. It's been a very long time since @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: "There are just too many AOEs being flung around". Despite WvW track record... Trust me the whole AoE target would have been handled already if it were that easy. Anet can easily tell what it's like to hit 3 targets vs 5 with a skill or skills. Let's not make the "target" suggestion by you more dramatic then what it actually is; to be fair here :+1: > > To top it off. Anet has already went against this way of thinking by allowing certain AoE skills to hit 10 targets as a opposed to the typical 3-5. And has been this way for a fairly long time now. So make of that what you will ?♂️ Sorry, doesn’t work that way. You wrote it and I used them as examples. “Here is a very old classic example of telltale way the game show's where AoE's will be before they land.” “This method allows AoE's to shrink in size. This can be done through some combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time... perhaps (likely) depending on the AoE.” You’re not getting these new designed aoes period. They don’t address issues, and I can’t fathom how you don’t seem to understand the more functions a skills has the more the system has to keep track of it in real time... Which contributes to more lag, but you’re obviously unaware of that... It’s also obvious you haven’t put any real thought into the idea, except what seems to look good and fancy on paper.... Lastly, you’re obviously not aware of the technical limitations with player generated aoes, so you should probably do some research on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother.1504 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Do you really want the gw2 game engine making even more calculations during 3 way Zerg fights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > We may as well be playing "The floor is lava". Or "the floor is a kaleidoscope" if using shrinking AoE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > We may as well be playing "The floor is lava". > Or "the floor is a kaleidoscope" if using shrinking AoE. Lol that's funny. I would like to play the floor is kaleidoscope... I've never tried it before =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"Whiteout.1975" > > > > > > > > > > You want to needlessly complicate the way aoes function. The devs aren’t going to overhaul aoes in these ways and make changes to skills that will ultimately cause even more lag. > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I'm just not afraid to explore past the default way of thinking. > > > > > > > > An idea != a want... Because that's what these are... Idea's. My actual "want" atm however, is to reduce AoE spam to where multiple (tons of) AoE's are not going off at once. Resulting in a sea of red. > > > > > > > > Besides that... Thank You for your opinion on what the devs won't do and how they view idea's they probably didn't read yet. > > > > > > The idea doesn’t reduce the amount of aoes... What it does do is add to lag. > > > > > > Your aoe skill idea... > > > > > > 1-Visual warning indicator to alert a player that an aoe is being placed. > > > > > > 2- New aoe skill timer that reduces the radius multiple times until it expires. > > > > > > 3- So now each aoe has additional calculations the system has to track, more so than what happens now... > > > > > > Result... Devs waste time and resources overhauling how every ground target aoe functions, but we still have the same amount of aoes being used that now put additional strains on the system to calculate in real time... Great idea, and great way to add more lag! This is much better than, let’s say, reducing the target cap so there are less calculations that need to be made, while saving some time and money... > > > > No... That's your idea... of my AoE idea's. > > > > 1.) Isn't really my Idea. I believe @"Delofasht.4231" was the first to mention it. I'm just agreeing with them because the idea looks wonderfully useful. Thus, I linked a classic gw2 video that helps demonstrate the usefulness in what they are talking about... [https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA "https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA"). If I were to give the idea a name personally... I would call it "AoE Prescience". > > > > 2.) I never said "multiple times". I said (from OP) "AoE Downscaling... Certain AoE's may reduce in radius through a "combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time". In order to receive **a more desirable radius** if too problematic in it's initial state." > > How far the initial radius reduces... is dependent up what is "desirable". It could be "multiple time"... It might not be. Depends on what is desired. > > > > 3.) & onward... Just read @"Delofasht.4231" reply because they actually understand. Thus, this is your imagination coupled with misunderstanding. > > > > However, Thank You for better explaining yourself this time :+1: > > > > I'll be honest here though... > > Your idea makes it harder to kill bigger groups, further promotes stacking. and AoE's still are lasting longer... With no warning sign of future AoE activity (where the AoE will be) to better react to. Your idea doesn't even attempt to allow AoE's to go away faster. You still have the potential "sea of red" just sitting there waiting to make calculations. . Also, AoE's still have to calculate who not to hit; especially given that targets can quickly move. Thus, "There are just too many AOEs being flung around" still holds true. Which, often makes the combat a dull laggy spam fest. I don't think anyone wants that. We may as well be playing "The floor is lava". > > Along with that, you can just reread your initially linked post in case you forgot about the points people made against it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes > > > > It's a complicated problem. The answer should not be expected to be so transparent as "Oh just adjust the targets lower" to fix it. If the answer was so cut and dry it would have been done by now. It's been a very long time since @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: "There are just too many AOEs being flung around". Despite WvW track record... Trust me the whole AoE target would have been handled already if it were that easy. Anet can easily tell what it's like to hit 3 targets vs 5 with a skill or skills. Let's not make the "target" suggestion by you more dramatic then what it actually is; to be fair here :+1: > > > > To top it off. Anet has already went against this way of thinking by allowing certain AoE skills to hit 10 targets as a opposed to the typical 3-5. And has been this way for a fairly long time now. So make of that what you will ?♂️ > > Sorry, doesn’t work that way. You wrote it and I used them as examples. > > “Here is a very old classic example of telltale way the game show's where AoE's will be before they land.” > > “This method allows AoE's to shrink in size. This can be done through some combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time... perhaps (likely) depending on the AoE.” > > You’re not getting these new designed aoes period. They don’t address issues, and I can’t fathom how you don’t seem to understand the more functions a skills has the more the system has to keep track of it in real time... Which contributes to more lag, but you’re obviously unaware of that... It’s also obvious you haven’t put any real thought into the idea, except what seems to look good and fancy on paper.... Lastly, you’re obviously not aware of the technical limitations with player generated aoes, so you should probably do some research on it. You misrepresented what I wrote before lol. That was the issue. Okay... so telling me "You’re not getting these new designed aoes period" isn't going to magically make me believe you. It just comes across as assertive without care for a real discussion. That said, idk what all you can "fathom", but I will try to help you a bit. Those "functions" are for the limitations of current other functions and the greater opportunity to which they can currently take place. I'm trying to limit the elongated opportunity for them. If You can keep running through tons of active AoE's picking and re-picking up effects that's a problem. An AoE won't go away unless it knows when to do so. I thank you for telling me it looks good and fancy on paper. Even though you tell me I didn't put any real thought into the idea. That may be one of the nicest things you've ever said to me <3 Sure, I'm willing to learn about the "technical limitations" further. Show me what you know so that I may improve :+1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Brother.1504" said: > Do you really want the gw2 game engine making even more calculations during 3 way Zerg fights? Is this a trick question? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 @"Whiteout.1975" > I think there's a misunderstanding of the OP here. The idea here is to allow AoE's to go away faster based on the environment they're in (talking large vs small scale fights). However, to retain their effectiveness as much as possible so that they still work against "larger groups". > > Nope. If it's a larger fight. The larger group will have AoE's happen more quickly in general than that of the smaller group. So no... If anything it can help the smaller group. If large groups AoE's will be used up more quickly, then small groups AoE will be used up even more quickly (target saturation). Actually letting the larger group play more "area denial" than the smaller group. Example: * 20x players with hit10 aoes = 200 hits * 50x players with hit10 aoes = 500 hits * Those 20 players aoes will last shorter (more targets) * The 50 players aoe will likely last just as long (less targets) * The extra layer of calculation might generate just as much calc (can't know, server tech, players doesn't have access) * It would make aoe's go away faster in general (see above for server calc) If 20 people chased a single roamer, their aoe's would likely all last out their entire durations, since the roamer will only trigger 1-2 hits on each aoe before running out for his life. While I don't like the current system/setup, at least an outnumbering group get more out of their AoE's in "time" than the outnumbering, simply because more players will be walking through it, strongly hampered by the "5target-limit". If for nothing else, the aoe still remains to pretend to give an "area-denial" zone, despite that it likely already used up its 5 targets and just stands there looking pretty. --- > Nope. The larger group will pretty much always have the advantage of more AoE's in general. This idea here doesn't change this fact. As such, smaller groups are already punished based on that alone. No one is benefited or punished anymore than the other than normally. And if AoE's are creeping in/shrinking... Then the smaller group could have an easier time navigating the field; just like the bigger group. Even inside chokes it would be still pretty even, regarding pro/cons. This is not considering Hit Counters though. However, if Hit Counters are involved... Then it's as I stated before regarding them. After re-reading your OP again I agree that this wouldn't really change outnumber/outnumbered much at all. Agreed on that. To be honest, I don't quite see the purpose of this suggestion though? I think I'd rather go with other changes instead, like a few suggested in this thread that I liked: * Smaller aoe circles * Instant Aoe's (dmg/condi) * Less AoE's in general (more single target skills, stronger but rared aoes) These would reduce the "red carpet" and also be easier for the server to calculate (fire and forget, or smaller scales), can even be combined. And possibly even open up a few new ways to use skills. --- > I am just focused on reducing the time of AoE's primarily. In respect to whats going on given that situations can very greatly. Your focus is how smaller groups can come up to par defensively against larger groups regarding AoE's. Which is cool :+1: However, I think we have different focus's here... At least initially considering the OP Valid point. I see all game mechanics as part of a large whole (design), and that they interact with each others in many ways. So changing a system will naturally have impacts on many other aspects of the game. Thus from my limited perspective AoE's affect: * Combat Strategy (numbers) * Combat Position (area denial) * Server load/calculations * Spam vs Skill Guess I'm just trying to point out/hint that there are more things to consider when changing basic game designs like this :) Any change to AoE's in general is going to heavily affect all zerg combat for example. Which again might force a big balance change anyways. --- > Maybe? But if so... Anet would have to remove A LOT of AoE's for the sake of WvW. Given that WvW allows for so many players to be present at a time. Instead, if we had more smaller maps limiting the numbers of Players by maybe 50%? Compared to currently. Then this whole thing wouldn't as be as big of an issue IMO. I agree though, I don't want AoE's to be so "spammy". It leads to really dull and simpleminded gameplay IMO. Would also prefer skill... But that's in part why I don't want them around so much compared to currently. Have AoE's still be effective by all means... This is what I also wanted in the OP. Just not so many to where players getting hit without much of a thought. Yup. --- I think a lot of the current AoE skills could be changed to single target skills that affects "nearby" enemies, or bounce to the nearest 2-4 targets etc. Which would remove a lot of red aoe's on the ground, let them be reflect-able, more fire-and-forget for the server etc. And rather keep few but stronger AoE's, giving fewer but stronger aoe's on the ground. So when enemy stack 5+ AoE in one place you know you should get the kitten out. Would reward coordination/organization in wvw. Would clean up the battlefield with much less red carpets. Would probably save some calculations from the server. Would remove aoe spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joneirikb.7506 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Sorry, kind of lost track of everyone that added to these ideas over the thread, but a few examples I really liked, so thanks @everyone ! ;) * Smaller aoe circles * Instant Aoe's (dmg/condi) * Less AoE's in general --- * Smaller aoe circles Essentially, make several of the more spammy aoe skills into very small aoe's, more around 150-200 radius, so they hit the middle and anyone standing right next to. With the majority of the spammable aoe's made into these small/tiny aoe's, then instead of "red carpet" the floor would look more like a mass of red polka-dots, which actually would give some room to manuver and walk around. Though it wouldn't help much with server calc. Advantages: * Less "floor is lava" more "Floor is polka! lets dance!" * Spammy aoe's would be less area denial * Spammy aoe's would be less efficient in open field * Less obvious skills to spam Disadvantages: * likely wouldn't help any with server-calc * That's still a lot of red polka dots... * Still very strong in chokes, even unorganized. * Unless WvW split skills, would make PVE rage. --- * Instant Aoe's (dmg/condi) Really liked this idea, and the several variants that can be made of this. Here is my take on it: When you cast an AoE, it creates an "initial effect" and an AoE field. This AoE field has a timer, before it triggers a "secondary effect" then it's over and goes away. An example: Say we have a medium size aoe that does bleeding and knockdown. * Cast spell create an Aoe effect (primary effect) * This does instant damage * This does instant Bleeding * Then the AoE effect waits for X time (0.5 - 1 second) before triggering "second effect" * This does more damage * This does Knockdown * Aoe is now over and removed. This way, you get some use of aoes even if everyone walks out of it instantly, but at the same time the strongest effects that should be telegraphed are linked to the second effect. This means that any aoe's on the ground are clear warning signs that something nasty is coming. This would drastically shorten the duration of all aoe's, while still leaving them efficient (obviously need some balancing to compensate, but honestly they already need that). You could still apply this to other AoE's without CC or other such effects at the end, by having them give large stacks of fire, or strong secondary damage effects etc. They're still dangerous but not in the same way. Of devs wanted to work further on this, they could even have a symbol in the middle reflect what the nasty thing coming was. So an AoE with a symbol for Knockdown in the middle. So... Advantages: * Greatly reduces AoE duration, less red carpet * Still retains most use of AoE's * Standardize the timing and effect more * Lets players react more to the battlefield Disadvantages: * Less red Carpet, more Red Disco. Might trigger epilepsy * Less constant area denial * Going to be hell with combo field durations, might have to be separated --- * Less AoE's in general Think I talked a bit about this already in this thread. Largely: * Change most spam-able aoe's into target skills, with extra effects (bounce, hit nearby, etc) * change some into other types of skills like target lines * Make the remaining AoE's stronger with longer cooldowns on average Advantage: * Less spam * More impact with the ones you keep * work better for organized play/skill * less floor is lava Disadvantage: * If that floor IS lava, run for your life! * players likely going to freak out with so many single target skills * Unless skill split for WvW, PVE players would murder someone * Harder to 1vsX for roaming with less aoe --- For any and all changes, no matter what, how or when. Disadvantage: * Requires ANet to balance stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > > > > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > > > > > @"Whiteout.1975" > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to needlessly complicate the way aoes function. The devs aren’t going to overhaul aoes in these ways and make changes to skills that will ultimately cause even more lag. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. I'm just not afraid to explore past the default way of thinking. > > > > > > > > > > An idea != a want... Because that's what these are... Idea's. My actual "want" atm however, is to reduce AoE spam to where multiple (tons of) AoE's are not going off at once. Resulting in a sea of red. > > > > > > > > > > Besides that... Thank You for your opinion on what the devs won't do and how they view idea's they probably didn't read yet. > > > > > > > > The idea doesn’t reduce the amount of aoes... What it does do is add to lag. > > > > > > > > Your aoe skill idea... > > > > > > > > 1-Visual warning indicator to alert a player that an aoe is being placed. > > > > > > > > 2- New aoe skill timer that reduces the radius multiple times until it expires. > > > > > > > > 3- So now each aoe has additional calculations the system has to track, more so than what happens now... > > > > > > > > Result... Devs waste time and resources overhauling how every ground target aoe functions, but we still have the same amount of aoes being used that now put additional strains on the system to calculate in real time... Great idea, and great way to add more lag! This is much better than, let’s say, reducing the target cap so there are less calculations that need to be made, while saving some time and money... > > > > > > No... That's your idea... of my AoE idea's. > > > > > > 1.) Isn't really my Idea. I believe @"Delofasht.4231" was the first to mention it. I'm just agreeing with them because the idea looks wonderfully useful. Thus, I linked a classic gw2 video that helps demonstrate the usefulness in what they are talking about... [https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA "https://youtube.com/watch?v=MPYGvUMdsrA"). If I were to give the idea a name personally... I would call it "AoE Prescience". > > > > > > 2.) I never said "multiple times". I said (from OP) "AoE Downscaling... Certain AoE's may reduce in radius through a "combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time". In order to receive **a more desirable radius** if too problematic in it's initial state." > > > How far the initial radius reduces... is dependent up what is "desirable". It could be "multiple time"... It might not be. Depends on what is desired. > > > > > > 3.) & onward... Just read @"Delofasht.4231" reply because they actually understand. Thus, this is your imagination coupled with misunderstanding. > > > > > > However, Thank You for better explaining yourself this time :+1: > > > > > > I'll be honest here though... > > > Your idea makes it harder to kill bigger groups, further promotes stacking. and AoE's still are lasting longer... With no warning sign of future AoE activity (where the AoE will be) to better react to. Your idea doesn't even attempt to allow AoE's to go away faster. You still have the potential "sea of red" just sitting there waiting to make calculations. . Also, AoE's still have to calculate who not to hit; especially given that targets can quickly move. Thus, "There are just too many AOEs being flung around" still holds true. Which, often makes the combat a dull laggy spam fest. I don't think anyone wants that. We may as well be playing "The floor is lava". > > > Along with that, you can just reread your initially linked post in case you forgot about the points people made against it here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/44028/ideas-to-tone-down-offensive-aoes > > > > > > It's a complicated problem. The answer should not be expected to be so transparent as "Oh just adjust the targets lower" to fix it. If the answer was so cut and dry it would have been done by now. It's been a very long time since @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said: "There are just too many AOEs being flung around". Despite WvW track record... Trust me the whole AoE target would have been handled already if it were that easy. Anet can easily tell what it's like to hit 3 targets vs 5 with a skill or skills. Let's not make the "target" suggestion by you more dramatic then what it actually is; to be fair here :+1: > > > > > > To top it off. Anet has already went against this way of thinking by allowing certain AoE skills to hit 10 targets as a opposed to the typical 3-5. And has been this way for a fairly long time now. So make of that what you will ?♂️ > > > > Sorry, doesn’t work that way. You wrote it and I used them as examples. > > > > “Here is a very old classic example of telltale way the game show's where AoE's will be before they land.” > > > > “This method allows AoE's to shrink in size. This can be done through some combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time... perhaps (likely) depending on the AoE.” > > > > You’re not getting these new designed aoes period. They don’t address issues, and I can’t fathom how you don’t seem to understand the more functions a skills has the more the system has to keep track of it in real time... Which contributes to more lag, but you’re obviously unaware of that... It’s also obvious you haven’t put any real thought into the idea, except what seems to look good and fancy on paper.... Lastly, you’re obviously not aware of the technical limitations with player generated aoes, so you should probably do some research on it. > > You misrepresented what I wrote before lol. That was the issue. > > Okay... so telling me "You’re not getting these new designed aoes period" isn't going to magically make me believe you. It just comes across as assertive without care for a real discussion. That said, idk what all you can "fathom", but I will try to help you a bit. Those "functions" are for the limitations of current other functions and the greater opportunity to which they can currently take place. I'm trying to limit the elongated opportunity for them. If You can keep running through tons of active AoE's picking and re-picking up effects that's a problem. An AoE won't go away unless it knows when to do so. > > I thank you for telling me it looks good and fancy on paper. Even though you tell me I didn't put any real thought into the idea. That may be one of the nicest things you've ever said to me <3 > > Sure, I'm willing to learn about the "technical limitations" further. Show me what you know so that I may improve :+1: First of all, I'm using your own words to form the general idea you wanted period. Do I need to requote you again? Because you are seemingly unaware of this as well... Me describing your desire for aoes… "Your aoe skill idea... 1-Visual warning indicator to alert a player that an aoe is being placed. 2- New aoe skill timer that reduces the radius multiple times until it expires." Comments by you in this thread... 1-“Here is a very old classic example of telltale way the game show's where AoE's will be before they land.” 2-“This method allows AoE's to shrink in size. This can be done through some combination of "Hit Counters" and/or Time... perhaps (likely) depending on the AoE.” You are obviously not aware of the technical limitations for player generated aoes, but you are tossing numbers like 15/20 around. Cap is 5 for reasons. You are also not aware that adding more rules and functions to aoe skills means the servers have to work harder to track and process them, thus adding even more lag for large group play. Are you oblivious to the lag that happens in wvw at times? Not paying attention the forum complaints about lag for the past 7 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delofasht.4231 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 @"Whiteout.1975" I think we moved on from your initial idea overall and to the somewhat easier to idea I proposed, but @"Swagger.1459" didn't keep up with the transition. That is actually fine though. As to why the load become heavier for multiple check AoEs that auto change in size after a certain threshold is reached is simply because the system has more lines of code for each and every instance of an AoE with such checks. Several AoEs are already fairly heavy with checks as is it, (especially in the case of long lasting ones). Big thanks to @"joneirikb.7506" for the recap and analysis, there is a trade off on any number of these ideas it is true. We can hope that the devs read this thread, get some ideas, and maybe even implement some. The problem is, to do new abilities like this might end up with them not being used, where existing instant gratification is already so good, unless the effects were entirely too strong on the backend (which would cause an entire different set of problems). In order for them to try this they would have to play with the code and see about doing it across the board in big sweeps. I wonder if AoE skills are actually built from a kind of style sheet, where certain keys are used to change the base function. Meaning changes to the basic AoE sheet would affect all the AoEs at one time and a little fine tuning could be used across the board. Who knows! /shrug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteout.1975 Posted July 11, 2019 Author Share Posted July 11, 2019 > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > @"Whiteout.1975" I think we moved on from your initial idea overall and to the somewhat easier to idea I proposed, but @"Swagger.1459" didn't keep up with the transition. That is actually fine though. As to why the load become heavier for multiple check AoEs that auto change in size after a certain threshold is reached is simply because the system has more lines of code for each and every instance of an AoE with such checks. Several AoEs are already fairly heavy with checks as is it, (especially in the case of long lasting ones). > > Big thanks to @"joneirikb.7506" for the recap and analysis, there is a trade off on any number of these ideas it is true. We can hope that the devs read this thread, get some ideas, and maybe even implement some. The problem is, to do new abilities like this might end up with them not being used, where existing instant gratification is already so good, unless the effects were entirely too strong on the backend (which would cause an entire different set of problems). In order for them to try this they would have to play with the code and see about doing it across the board in big sweeps. I wonder if AoE skills are actually built from a kind of style sheet, where certain keys are used to change the base function. Meaning changes to the basic AoE sheet would affect all the AoEs at one time and a little fine tuning could be used across the board. Who knows! /shrug. Yea I agree. I'm just gonna try to focus on people trying to develop the discussion in a positive manner; whether or not we agree 100%. Which the vast majority are so far... so that's awesome. If @"Swagger.1459" can change the assertive demeanor and not belie past what I've actually written... Then I'll happily have a real discussion. For now, I'm just gonna have to ignore them sadly. Yea, that's a fair point about the load becoming heavier regarding this. As a recap. My initial thought was to try to tackle a specific generalized situation in which AoE's become a bigger problem. Like I don't think anyone's complaining about 5 or 10 AoE's on the ground at a time as is. I was trying to tackle instances to where maybe 20-25+ AoE's are generally considered a problem based on @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065"'s original statement about there being too many AoE's being flung around. This is still my main concern given what Ben wrote. This however, of coarse, does not mean I am saying AoE's need to be better balanced beyond this. I would just like to tackle this problematic situation first if possible. Indeed. A well made summary of points in this post @"joneirikb.7506" :+1: Yea that's a good question about AoE's Base function @"Delofasht.4231". Would be wonderful to know :+1: My current thought on the issue is this... - **How can we fix AoE's for 1 general problematic situation (The Sea of Red) without disrupting Lesser situations (No Sea of Red) to which they are not a problem?**... And that's putting any actual consistent balance issues with AoE's aside for the time being. I think that's the main question to answer here ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 > @"Whiteout.1975" said: > > @"Delofasht.4231" said: > > @"Whiteout.1975" I think we moved on from your initial idea overall and to the somewhat easier to idea I proposed, but @"Swagger.1459" didn't keep up with the transition. That is actually fine though. As to why the load become heavier for multiple check AoEs that auto change in size after a certain threshold is reached is simply because the system has more lines of code for each and every instance of an AoE with such checks. Several AoEs are already fairly heavy with checks as is it, (especially in the case of long lasting ones). > > > > Big thanks to @"joneirikb.7506" for the recap and analysis, there is a trade off on any number of these ideas it is true. We can hope that the devs read this thread, get some ideas, and maybe even implement some. The problem is, to do new abilities like this might end up with them not being used, where existing instant gratification is already so good, unless the effects were entirely too strong on the backend (which would cause an entire different set of problems). In order for them to try this they would have to play with the code and see about doing it across the board in big sweeps. I wonder if AoE skills are actually built from a kind of style sheet, where certain keys are used to change the base function. Meaning changes to the basic AoE sheet would affect all the AoEs at one time and a little fine tuning could be used across the board. Who knows! /shrug. > > Yea I agree. I'm just gonna try to focus on people trying to develop the discussion in a positive manner; whether or not we agree 100%. Which the vast majority are so far... so that's awesome. If @"Swagger.1459" can change the assertive demeanor and not belie past what I've actually written... Then I'll happily have a real discussion. For now, I'm just gonna have to ignore them sadly. > > Yea, that's a fair point about the load becoming heavier regarding this. > > As a recap. My initial thought was to try to tackle a specific generalized situation in which AoE's become a bigger problem. Like I don't think anyone's complaining about 5 or 10 AoE's on the ground at a time as is. I was trying to tackle instances to where maybe 20-25+ AoE's are generally considered a problem based on @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065"'s original statement about there being too many AoE's being flung around. This is still my main concern given what Ben wrote. This however, of coarse, does not mean I am saying AoE's need to be better balanced beyond this. I would just like to tackle this problematic situation first if possible. > > Indeed. A well made summary of points in this post @"joneirikb.7506" :+1: > Yea that's a good question about AoE's Base function @"Delofasht.4231". Would be wonderful to know :+1: > > My current thought on the issue is this... > > - **How can we fix AoE's for 1 general problematic situation (The Sea of Red) without disrupting Lesser situations (No Sea of Red) to which they are not a problem?**... And that's putting any actual consistent balance issues with AoE's aside for the time being. I think that's the main question to answer here ? You only hear what you want to hear, not the facts, or even opposing views. Aoes are capped at 5 for technical reasons. During mass battles the server can’t handle the load with what’s going on now, yet you want to add more functions to aoes that will strain the system more... Yet you don’t want to accept that fact for some reason. Read over your idea and tell me how this was supposed to reduce the amount of aoes (and lag too) being used by players? It doesn’t, like at all. Just changes how they function and nothing more, plus with a hypothetical 15/20 targets being hit that the system would need to process as well... Devs would be flushing time and money down the drain with changes that makes lag worse in the end and wouldn’t resolve any issues with the “too many aoes being flung around” problem. Your idea doesn’t reduce the amount of aoes skills players have access to. You want to increase target caps. You add more functions to aoes... You haven’t brought up anything to address any issues, all the idea does is contribute to the problem, not solve it. Not even remotely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagger.1459 Posted July 11, 2019 Share Posted July 11, 2019 “10 hammer - Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 120 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 540 targets. 2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,080 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total. 3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,620 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total. And we are not even factoring in calculations from other Ranged AoE attacks, PBAoE attacks, Condis, Buffs, Heals, passives... and all sorts of other things the system has to process…” So you want to take the above (current) scenario and multiply targets hit by 15 or 20 per aoe. With aoes that now have more functions and behaviors to them... The game can’t handle mass battles well now, so what do you think the outcome of your changes will be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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