Core Classes vs Elite Question

[JpDelano.2580]

So are all elite specializations going to outperform all core specializations? I can understand if its called an elite specialization then it should out perform them, but thats not my question. Anyway, out of the 3 classes ive tried out, i like the core version of them better.

[Trise.2865]

Depends on how you define "performance", but generally no. They're more style options than strict upgrades, but they do add role choices that the core profession may lack.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"JpDelano.2580" said:

> Anyway, out of the 3 classes ive tried out, i like the core version of them better.

 

Play what you like. There's no reason to force yourself into elites if you prefer core.

[Danikat.8537]

As I understand it they're not intended to be directly more powerful, just to add options. In certain situations it's definitely useful to have those options, but it's not universal. Last time I looked one of the recommended raid builds was for a core engineer with no elites.

 

Whether they are actually better or not is situational and also depends a lot on who you ask - some people are adamant there is no point even considering a core build unless you're unable to get the elites, others that all elites (or at least those for their preferred profession) are trash and not worth taking...and there's lots of people in the middle.

[ugrakarma.9416]

At least in PvP its tends to be balanced, wasnt perfect today, but was very worse on past. in PvE with except raids, all are viable.. in Pvp/WvW the less "viable"

[JpDelano.2580]

Well i tested my my core engineer with dual pistols and my holo engineer and it was about 1k difference in favor of the holo. This is all just what I came up with, i dont really do raid guides or anything, unless i get my team killed. So its not as bad as i thought or as it seemed after i tested it on the dummy. Both were crit builds. So appreciate the feedback, i dont feel so bad now.

 

 

[rng.1024]

Core can work great against lesser skilled players, but will put you at a disadvantage regardless when on equal footing.

[LucianDK.8615]

Core Necromancer is downright terribad compared to Reaper or Scourge.

[starlinvf.1358]

The answer is complicated because of how the classes are structured. The core classes are fundamentally both Archetypes and Hybrids as a single package, and is a type of Multi-classing concept very few RPGs even think to try.

 

The disparity in "meta" mostly comes from the heavily disproportionate value of various mechanical concepts involved in the game's combat, and how this is divided up among the Core classes. Damage and Damage boosting are king in this game.... so naturally, all classes that are good at this are considered baseline; and their tier divisions are broken up by what they can do IN ADDITION to damage. Guardian is the apex of most metas, because its boon support architecture allows for a massive increase in survival at a minimal cost to damage potential. its only in raids, which have an abnormal focus on extreme builds, that will try to completely ignore features of a class because someone else is marginally better.

 

The Core classes are also built around their mechanics, and usually have a particular method of accomplishing a task. This is where that weighting issue I mentioned earlier comes into play. Necros are designed around debuffing and boon ripping (which is their PvP profile), but not direct damage. PvE doesn't value that AT ALL.... so the lack of direct damage is the reason core necro is shuned the way it is. Thieves were also looked down upon, despite being damage oriented, because they don't boost damage of a group.

 

High tier is filled with classes that do things that are hard for other classes to replicate without huge sacrifices:

 

Guardians have group synergy at its core, and doesn't have to do serious build investment to make that happen. This allows it build for damage, and still buff allies using the same skills it uses to benefit themselves.

Elementalists ranked in second in most metas because it can field both damage and support functions on the fly, and has access to every baseline combat effect the game has. Pre-HOT, they were also the premier might stacker, which every organized group wanted.

Memsers came in 3rd due to its ability to bypass parts of instanced content, and can suppress enemy mechanics in a lot of situations between both open world and instanced content. That utility is hard to ignore, and had been taken for granted in every organized fight... until HOT broke everything with its insane DPS metrics. It also holds a solid place in sPvP, being the hardest class to counter overall.

 

Mid tier is populated by low effort classes. Here sits Ranger, Warrior, Rev, who all do decent damage in their own right, but can't offer group support without giving up damage in the process. This contention is why War and Ranger didn't offer the kind of value Guardian does for a slot; while Rev was designed for, and came in during a time when Anet was fumbling hard with Raid power balancing.

 

Low Tier has the 3 classes that didn't fit into the general Damage/Might centered meta of post-launch:

 

Thief is here mostly because its burst damage is very specifically tuned to PvP, has a low target cap, and doesn't field the kind of sustain damage or CC potential desired for general play. Its defense are also very stealth oriented, which is highly dysfunctional in light of the how Mob AI works. This makes them hard to play in general, and were not particularly effective in cluster fights that were common in open world and dungeons. The only place they excelled was in PvP, as players are actively hampered by the uncertainty created by stealth.

 

Engineer is low ranked from a long standing struggle with generating damage against moving targets. Their burst damage is weak in comparison to other classes, and their utilities outside the Damage-oriented kits have limited practical use. Its also one of the hardest classes to play behind the thief- requiring the mechanical knowledge of fields (an aspect shared by eles), but lacks the direct attacks and breadth of diversity allowed by Ele's attunement system.

 

At the bottom was Necro, which represents almost every good idea done wrong with the game's overall design. Necros are oppressive, but not by damage the way other classes would do the same. Core necro is a selfish support, partially based on Warlocks, and is meant to debuff enemies and provide control. The problem with this is multi-faceted....

In PvE, the lack of general damage, and poor damage scaling with stats (keep in mind, Condis were weak DPS back in Core), basically caused all fights to drag on longer then they should. If not for their inherent tankiness, they wouldn't be able to accomplish much in general PvE. In PvP, condition cleanses were common, all the Necros control skills were strong, but short lived, and they lacked active defenses on the presumption that its HP will make up for it. This sort of worked initially, but aged terribly as average damage increased significantly, and control became more common in other classes via Especs and reworks.

 

 

HOT especs had 2 goals..... First was to make Raid viable builds for all the classes. Second, try to fill in the functional weaknesses of each class, so they will all see more broad use. For the most part this was a success- but is messed up hard in how the strength of a class's core spec carried directly into the Especs. This is why most people refer to it as Power Creep, because every Espec (except Druid) enabled a stronger Damage build out of the gate. A lot of classes needed this, but the way everything compounded created a new standard in redonkulous DPS, that still lingers to this day. Ranger got the short end of the stick, as the Druid's design attempts to make its existing support functions more active (aka clunky to use)... and then tacked on the "main healer" job for the sake of Raids. This is an ironic inversion, given Druids tend to be hybrids in other games; while the Ranger in GW2 already worked that way, minus the direct healing.

 

 

So the reason you rarely see Core builds is because the game is disproportionately weighted toward damage metrics. Especs largely doubled down on that premise, and increased the numbers of CCs and AOEs to boot, while the Core Specs still anguish in a paradigm thats now 7 years old. Once Especs were released, the only reason you ever saw Core specs in the meta was due to flukes in balance at the given time. Condi Ranger was only an option because Druid was an inherent DPS loss, and Banner Slave/Phalanx Warrior required 3 Core Trait lines to work correctly. For everyone else, their top builds either revolved around the Especs, or the Especs enhanced a core build (making it superior to core only).

 

Anet's long standing refusal to address Core perpetuates this situation.... especially since Core tends to be the reason many Especs scale out of control in the first place. You have no idea how frustrating that is, because they frequently nerf Core traits to address a specific problem that only happens with specific interactions of an Espec. Not only has his weakened Core in its own right, it also creates collateral damage with the other core and espec trait lines that may or may not manifest immediately. Engineer and Thief, historically, had a lot of delayed issues with balance changes. While Mesmer and Rev issues become apparent almost immediately.

 

The recent "wvw balance proposal" is a culmination of previous actions causing them to make stupid decisions in the present, and is a shining example of how bad they are at understanding an issue, the short range of their forward thinking, and their clear reliance on metrics in their decision making process. All worthy of a case study. And they don't even get to have the prestige of being unique in this problem either. Modern game design is hard, yes. But its amazing how many companies stumble forward, and never getting a proper handle on their creations. Anet originally had a Pedigree directly from Blizzards hayday too.... which makes this situation all the more frustrating.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

If you just do casual content, play whatever you want it doesnt really matter. If you do more competitive content, elite specs outperform core specs in pretty much every way.

[Game of Bones.8975]

My Ranger is the only character I like the core better than either of the Elite Professions. I also stick to ope-world PvE with it. I never liked the Druid and couldn't get into the Soulbeast.

 

That being said, I play for fun, not for competition. I will sacrifice points for aesthetics if it makes my playtime more enjoyable.

[ROMANG.1903]

Elite specs will outshine core specs because they are much more specialised. A core build will have a little bit of everything, but an elite spec will target one specific aspect while ignoring the rest. That's true for almost any role. A DPS will always be higher with an elite spec designed for that, same goes for healing and support.

 

A solution would be to stop having core traitlines specialised in a specific aspect of the class, and instead give each line several options to buff different aspects in their own way. They kind of did that lately with the elem's water traitline, with the increased damage on vulnerable targets and when you're high on health. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent Fire/Air/Water core build started being used.

[JpDelano.2580]

Quote

" HOT especs had 2 goals..... First was to make Raid viable builds for all the classes. Second, try to fill in the functional weaknesses of each class, so they will all see more broad use. For the most part this was a success- but is messed up hard in how the strength of a class's core spec carried directly into the Especs. This is why most people refer to it as Power Creep, because every Espec (except Druid) enabled a stronger Damage build out of the gate."

 

I never knew that. This is very interesting.. I actually looked up a raid build last night, and your right. when i looked at a holosmith build it had a grenade kit in there, and i think a mortar. Im not going to use a grenade kit if i play a holosmith. sorry all, but no way am i doing that.

 

How would you even start to fix something like that? I mean the holosmith is a blast to play, just using the talents. What would happen if they made a new condition? The condition occurs whenever you use a cross class skill. So holosmith gets a penalty for using a grenade. A gadget expert gets a penalty for using a bomb. They then buff up the core abilities..... then nothing changes because you now just have a penalty while doing buttloads of damage. ...??? what happens if you buff up someone using all gadget skills only? give them a boon called gadgeteer.....????

 

As George Clooney said.. " Dang, were in a tight spot"