It's Time To Let Go of This Most Useless Character

[Lucas.4876]

Kill Braham and bring back Apatia!!!

 

Thank you.

[yann.1946]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"KidRoleplay.3615" said:

> > From that standpoint, his insecurity-fueled tantrum made sense.

>

> It was just a bit too much.

>

> As for him being a Norn, listening to someone vomitting _is_ immature/lowbrow writing and does nothing for the story or for the character. It's plain disgusting.

>

>

 

Honestly I think it did a lot for the character and the story. It showed that he was already way over his limit. This drunken thing was a nice way to show the manipulation of rynald.

 

 

[Keriana.9635]

I agree 1000% with op about Braham. I am so sick of him.

[thepenmonster.3621]

> @"ScyeRynn.4218" said:

>The most unlikable, useless character in their story and after years of players asking to get rid of him and stop wasting time and development on him what do they do?

 

Counterpoint: Nah, son.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> Hear me out a second:

> I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

>

> It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

 

Agreed.... and when you add that to the fact that Braham getting drunk essentially replaced Taimi the knowitall on comms for the episode? I thought it was pretty well done from a comic relief standpoint and as a plot device at the same time.

It was one of the highlights of the episode for me.

[KidRoleplay.3615]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"KidRoleplay.3615" said:

> > From that standpoint, his insecurity-fueled tantrum made sense.

>

> It was just a bit too much.

>

> As for him being a Norn, listening to someone vomitting _is_ immature/lowbrow writing and does nothing for the story or for the character. It's plain disgusting.

>

>

 

That just all sounds like opinions and feelings to me. My original point was whether or not things made sense for him to do, and based on that, determining if the writing was good or bad. I wasn't going for subjectivities in that evaluation.

 

If writing efficiency was based on how good someone felt by it, then Lovecraft would probably be the world's worst author.

[Chadramar.8156]

> @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> Hear me out a second:

> I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

>

> It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

 

That is a very good point! I didn't consciously think about it while it was all happening, but when Braham discovered that his bow was missing I had a definite "Oh s* don't tell me it was Ryland, I was happy they were hitting it off so well" moment followed by an "I knew it!" in the war room. That was quite satisfying, and only possible because we got to see/hear it develop in the background. It's also a good use for that stupid communicator, especially compared to what they used to do with it i.e. omnipresent omniscient asura remote-controlling the player character.

 

[Ben K.6238]

I'll agree with the first five words of the topic: it is, indeed, time to let go.

 

He's hardly the worst thing that GW2 has ever done, so I can only see this as an irrational dislike of Braham. Fortunately, there's plenty of other games out there without him.

[Tukaram.8256]

I have game music and game conversation turned down low, and my Winamp up high. None of the characters bother me. Doing the prologue story is the first time I had the game sounds up, and I got sick of Braham so quick I turned them all back down. I just wish there was a way to skip the long, useless, conversations. :)

[perilisk.1874]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> What happens when Bangar realizes it wasn't Eir's bow that cracked the tooth but Braham himself?

> That would be a cool plot twist.

 

How would that work, exactly? Is he Balthazar's illegitimate kid or something?

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Brother.1504" said:

> Simple mentally here guys. Braham is in our party. He’s a guardian. He’s a support guardian. He stays.

>

> Rox is a ranger with a devourer pet and melee ranges with a short bow. So party kicked.

>

> Kasmeer is a mesmer so shes been nerfed like 5 times since last time she was in the story. She can stay we may need a portal to end of a JP.

>

> Marjory is still spec’d reaper instead of scourge for boon strips and barriers. She can stay as generic dps. Watch the ARCdps. Maybe kick later.

>

> Canach is a warrior. He stays.

>

> Rytlock is a herald. Sword dps and boon support. He stays.

>

> The answer is obvious.

 

I've never seen Canach drop a banner, though. Iffy.

[TheNecrosanct.4028]

> @"ScyeRynn.4218" said:

> > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > There are several things wrong with the OP's post. The first being that he claims to be talking bout everyone, while this is certainly not true. There are people who dislike Braham, but just as much as there are people disliking any other member of the living world story. (a good example would be Taime, whom is loved and hated at the same time.

> >

> > There is a lot of disliking in the post, but not where he would be bad or wrong. It is all about personal taste and has nothing to do with actual feedback about the writing. So any good reason to let him go is missing. (and yes there can be made good points about any character as they misfit someones personality and reacts to ones irritation, but that doesnt validate as a reason, im talking about feedback about the writing.)

>

> This is incorrect. The OP (also known as me) did not claim that "everybody" had the same opinion of Braham. Using words like "players" and "we" loosely and undefined is not claiming everyone. It could mean a majority of players, a large portion of players, or a small handful of players. And did you just assume my gender? :O There are far more than several things wrong with your post including incorrect claims, failed comprehension, assumptions, spelling and word usage, and an overall lack of anything relevant to the thread and its topic.

 

And in the meantime you ignored the rest of his post. You talked about cherrypicking in another reply. I guess you do know what that is, don't you?

 

Tbf, I also see nothing more than a person who dislikes a certain character and thinks that is a reason to kill them off. I see nothing but an opinion of a character, but not actual reasons why he's such a bad character. I don't see any valid criticism in writing style (even though you criticize others for theirs, the most pedantic thing to do on the Internet, especially if you also ignore large parts of their replies to you). He's irritating: opinion. He's useless: opinion. He's cringy: opinion. I could go on, but you catch my drift.

 

Braham isn't my favorite character either. At one point I wanted him gone too. But calling to kill him off seems a bit of an overreaction at this point.

[Henry.5713]

Didn't you see the presentation and reveal about the upcoming content... "Community favorites (characters) like Rytlock and ... BRAHAM"?

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > What happens when Bangar realizes it wasn't Eir's bow that cracked the tooth but Braham himself?

> > That would be a cool plot twist.

>

> How would that work, exactly? Is he Balthazar's illegitimate kid or something?

 

He wouldn't have to be according to the legend.

" It is generally believed that when a hero damages the fang, that hero will be capable of defeating Jormag once and for all."

While Braham used Eir's bow to crack the fang, there's nothing to say he couldn't have used any weapon enchanted with a Jotun fire scroll. There's nothing to say that he wasn't just worthy to do it.

The legend says nothing about who or how cracking the tooth needed to be done.

[Julia Nardin.9824]

> @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> Hear me out a second:

> I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

>

> It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

 

That's true! Every line of dialogue between Ryland and Braham serves a purpose! Braham's young, he's gregarious, he's still high on life after killing Kralkatorrik. The celebration is a great opportunity to celebrate in lieu of a moot. He was an easy mark for Ryland. I like to think Ryland genuinely started to befriend Braham by the time he was ready to steal the bow -- they have a lot in common, after all -- but orders are orders, and Braham's not charr.

 

We framed it the way we did so it didn't feel ominous or on the nose. It's one of those things we wanted people to notice in hindsight rather than in the moment. Ryland is _really_ interested in that Jormag story...

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Ben K.6238" said:

> I'll agree with the first five words of the topic: it is, indeed, time to let go.

>

> He's hardly the worst thing that GW2 has ever done, so I can only see this as an irrational dislike of Braham. Fortunately, there's plenty of other games out there without him.

 

The fact that you can only see something one way does not mean that others are being irrational.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Julia Nardin.9824" said:

> > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > Hear me out a second:

> > I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

> >

> > It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

>

> That's true! Every line of dialogue between Ryland and Braham serves a purpose! Braham's young, he's gregarious, he's still high on life after killing Kralkatorrik. The celebration is a great opportunity to celebrate in lieu of a moot. He was an easy mark for Ryland. I like to think Ryland genuinely started to befriend Braham by the time he was ready to steal the bow -- they have a lot in common, after all -- but orders are orders, and Braham's not charr.

>

> We framed it the way we did so it didn't feel ominous or on the nose. It's one of those things we wanted people to notice in hindsight rather than in the moment. Ryland is _really_ interested in that Jormag story...

 

The team always does a great job with characters and the story!

[Mewcifer.5198]

> @"Julia Nardin.9824" said:

> > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > Hear me out a second:

> > I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.

> >

> > It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

>

> That's true! Every line of dialogue between Ryland and Braham serves a purpose! Braham's young, he's gregarious, he's still high on life after killing Kralkatorrik. The celebration is a great opportunity to celebrate in lieu of a moot. He was an easy mark for Ryland. I like to think Ryland genuinely started to befriend Braham by the time he was ready to steal the bow -- they have a lot in common, after all -- but orders are orders, and Braham's not charr.

>

> We framed it the way we did so it didn't feel ominous or on the nose. It's one of those things we wanted people to notice in hindsight rather than in the moment. Ryland is _really_ interested in that Jormag story...

 

Senpai noticed me!

 

But I did notice how Ryland sounded a little put off by how little Braham could tell him about Jormag. And it gave us insight into why Braham was so shocked to see that Ryland had taken his bow and why he sounded so concerned for Ryland. Poor Braham thought he found a new comrade. He has been needing someone since Rox has started spending more time with the Olmakhan instead of him. I can't wait to see what is going to happen next.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"KidRoleplay.3615" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > As for him being a Norn, listening to someone vomitting _is_ immature/lowbrow writing and does nothing for the story or for the character. It's plain disgusting.

> That just all sounds like opinions and feelings to me.

 

Probably, but it is a cheap device to explain to the player that he's drunk. A "I think I am going to be sick" would have sufficed. Vomitting, farting etc is just distasteful, in movies, games and everywhere. It's not funny. It equals toilet humor.

[ugrakarma.9416]

i agree Braham is beyond useless,...., i hate Taimi, but even for someone be hated has merit, some sort of talent, has some sparkle in it; i mean: someone to be hated need be *noticed*,... but Braham? he doesnt serve even to be hated, is just to fill empty spaces..... **Even Merchant NPCs in Divinity Reach had more life than Braham**. Braham equals a lag in WvW battles, something that exists only to be "fixed". _Anet should get rid of characters thats needs our care_. Aurene was enough, and thank god shes become a Elder Dragon very fast. i dislike peting, babysiting and all this.

Braham need more hate to be alive, a true hate in his heart.

 

[KidRoleplay.3615]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"KidRoleplay.3615" said:

> > > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > > As for him being a Norn, listening to someone vomitting _is_ immature/lowbrow writing and does nothing for the story or for the character. It's plain disgusting.

> > That just all sounds like opinions and feelings to me.

>

> Probably, but it is a cheap device to explain to the player that he's drunk. A "I think I am going to be sick" would have sufficed. Vomitting, farting etc is just distasteful, in movies, games and everywhere. It's not funny. It equals toilet humor.

 

That's fine. To each his own and what not. Again, all I was saying is that the inclusion of such things do not automatically or necessarily point to bad writing.

 

Braham's immature; I expect him to mostly do immature things.

 

Anything beyond that, y'all have fun discussin', nah, ya hear? :)

[ScyeRynn.4218]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"ScyeRynn.4218" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > I have no issues with Braham.

> > >

> > > The more reaction he provokes, the more the writers will feel justified in him.

> >

> >

> > I'm sure they would. That's part of the problem with them and the point of this thread. Gimmick is the intention over substance.

> >

> > > Also, i like parsley

> > Including the plastic version solely meant to decorate your plate?

> >

> >

>

> Never been in any restaurant using fake parsley before. I'd still prob like it mind you, I just wouldn't like to eat it ;)

>

> I don't necessarily agree with your other point. Generating a reaction, esp an intended one isn't an example of amateurish or gimmicky writing. I willing to concede most of the story has been of poor writing quality, but a lot of what I see from people's complaints about specific characters come from a dislike rather than an actual issue with the writing.

>

> People toss around terms about bad writing a lot, when what they mean is they didn't like them. Not liking them is perfectly reasonable and acceptable.

>

> For example

>

> - Braham acting out after his mother was correct behaviour given his background and how he had finally started to feel a connection with a parent he'd rejected due to her Legend overshadowing him. That was twhen he's still young and immature enough to have raw emotion. It made him dislikable, but I wouldn't argue it was bad writing. In the end it allowed for some measure of redemption and characters development. The problem was, people kicked up because of his terrible attitude. And that was exactly what Anet had intended for that character at that time.

>

> - Braham cracking Jormag's tooth in a throwaway cutscene rather than building towards it and relegating something which is entrenched in the culture and mythology of a race to an afterthought and barely referred to again for 2.5 story arcs is bad writing. Very bad writing.

>

> We are never getting high quality writing in an MMO. No MMO has it (although I'd argue Secret World prob did it best for the style it was using and genre it was doing it in) and there are various reasons for it - you have a lot of writers coming and going over time, with a story that constantly changes as time goes on due to different writers and feedback from players. Expectations need to be tempered in this way and the diversity of the playerbase means understanding the difference between what is actually bad and what is just not individually liked

>

 

Yes, there is a difference between subjective and objective criticism. However, in the case of Braham's development and the execution of his scenes, there are unmistakable flaws in the writing craft.

 

The motivations are present, but the execution is off and forced. It's one thing to have those issues in one scene shortly after the fallout. It's another to have them consistently over multiple episodes and then to abruptly pivot to make him likable again.

 

Aside from that, the bigger issue this thread addresses is Braham's overall journey and his function in the story now. Other than being utilized for things out of character, he is wasted. All the potential of this character has been derailed, forced around, and ultimately failed.

 

Having a character that is mostly meant to be a gimmick only works for small, side characters like Faren. He was designed that way for the most part.

 

Braham was designed with a decent foundation and has been part of the core team of main characters for awhile now. He should be advancing on his journey in significant ways, not serving mostly as the comedic relief or "last minute savior".

 

Braham can have comedic moments and still be as stoic and honorable as he was in the beginning. But having him mostly as a clown and trying to push that "young and immature" caricature in the way that they have been for awhile now just reeks of inauthenticity. It's forced this way for the purpose of altering his character to suit a specific agenda with him rather than from a natural development in the story.

 

[ScyeRynn.4218]

> @"Bloodstealer.5978" said:

> > @"ScyeRynn.4218" said:

> > > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > > I think that just because a character creates tension or rubs people the wrong way, it doesn't mean they need to be gotten rid of.

> >

> > That's not what is being said here. Braham being conflicting isn't the problem. There are many characters in the story that conflict with the Commander and the missions and the other characters. It's about the execution and arc of Braham. It's about how Braham isn't being developed in a way that is authentic, significant, or necessary to the story other than as a way to redeem him.

> >

> > They "180'd" his character at least two times already, more than any other character because he is not a true character. He's a playing card meant to serve a purpose. Whether it's to be an ally who conflicts with the commander or the comedic relief. He's currently serving as the caricature sidekick just for forced-humor. He adds nothing significant or essential to the actual story.

> >

> > Saying "oh but he has been by the commander's side for many episodes!" is missing the fact that he was placed there recently and purposefully to put that idea in your head that Braham is now essential and not the annoying, useless, complaining character he was just prior. It's to make up for that. But they didn't even do that right. They decided to force down our throats that he's also now suddenly a highly comedic, buddy-buddy partner for the Commander.

> >

> > He may become useful in the Norn part of the upcoming story, but that should have been his story thus far. Instead everything till now has been filler or unnecessary conflict that went no where.

> >

> > Braham used to be a rising hero and an interesting character. He wasn't a whiny brat or a clown when we were first introduced to him. Then the commander took over much of the journey they had planned for him and instead of giving him a proper journey of his own, they decided to make him the tag-along group member with a grudge.

> >

>

> Wow slow down... remember this is a fantasy world and meant to have multi facets in its story telling, which in turn provide opportunities to branch or switch up all whilst creating the opportunity for players to explore them, cuss them or love them... there is no actual right or wrong except from your own personal viewpoint.

> Don't get me wrong I am not a Braham fanboi either as I've already said, but your not the voice of LS or do you have some sixth sense that can tell us what is in store for the character or any character cos from where I am sitting I can see the IBS being reasonably meaningful in context when considering both Braham and Rytlock, I also feel Rox could of had an uptick in character here as well but well it doesn't look like it.

>

> " It's about how Braham isn't being developed in a way that is authentic, significant, or necessary to the story other than as a way to redeem him. "

> I will be honest here and say I find this a little strange considering he is just one cog in a larger machine.. also consider the depth the narrative team are able to go to in the time and cost constraints they have upon them. I would hazard a guess they could of, would of, should of expanded Braham and other character so much more every chapter and likely did, but there will always be a need to edit out, shorten and change directions in an effort to get it all ready in time for the big reveals..

> Hopefully its not a sprint for this character or any of them, its a marathon

 

Multi-facets doesn't mean you choose multi-ranges of quality. That is just silly. You strive for the best quality you can achieve within the parameters you have or you concede that it's lesser than what it could and/or should be.

 

If Anet had the Predator alien from AVP suddenly appear from the skies and kill your character without any explanation and then have that change the entire course of your story, would you consider that right or wrong in the context of quality and natural story progression? There are clear right and wrongs in storytelling principles. That "Predator" scenario would be hilarious, but it would be wrong in this story. Braham going from William Wallace in Braveheart to Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars to Tom Holland's Spiderman is not only unfunny, it's also wrong in terms of natural, fitting story-telling progression.

 

All those constraints do not equate to poor-quality writing being necessary. That just sounds like an unconnected excuse. In those same constraints, they could have written more suitable, interesting, and authentic scenes with Braham.

 

[ScyeRynn.4218]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"ScyeRynn.4218" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"ScyeRynn.4218" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > The character provokes emotions in people. That alone is enough of a reason to keep him.

> > > > >

> > > > > I was no fan of Braham, even less after his tantrum in LWS3. In hindsight I have to say, I get where the authors were coming from, and any one who has lost someone close they loved might too. Was it narratively given enough room? Maybe not.

> > > > >

> > > > > As far as Brahams bumbling and drunkeness this epilogue, all I have to ask people who gelt embarassed: have you been sober around drunk people?

> > > > >

> > > > > Ask yourself, were you embarassed due to the acting and writing, or because Braham in character and context of the world was embarassing your squad? The second case would mean the authors got it right.

> > > >

> > > > Actually, it's not. Having a character around solely for "evoking emotions" is the equivalent of a caricature or stock character and that is exactly the kind of one-dimenstional character a proper story does NOT need, unless it's not meant to be taken seriously.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well I disagree and given how one of your other points was that Braham was rewritten multiple times, I fail to see how he can be one dimensional.

> > >

> > > Is he comedic relief in this prologue? Sure, while staying in character and lore. He is a Norn which like to boast and drink. He was celebrating a recebt victory. He has slowly overcome his issues of loss.

> > >

> > > You might not like the character, maybe because drunk people annoy you, as you mentioned. But from a writing perspective Braham has seen more developement than most other characters and given the direction of the story, he is fitting to be represented.

> > >

> >

> > A proper character would never need to be rewritten. Characters go through arcs, journeys, and development, but they should never be rewritten. That's like giving Taimi Rytlocks gruff personality or making Faren the Commander. It's only funny when it's not taken seriously or a lasting change in the story. Rewriting a character is not the same as proper character development.

> >

> > _"You might not like the character, maybe because drunk people annoy you, as you mentioned."_

> >

> > Did I? Where did I mention that?

> >

> > Sounds more like you felt personally offended by your own assumption.

> >

> >

>

> Nope, merely me mixing up two different replies. My bad.

>

> On everything else: that's your subjective opinion and obviously other players feel differently on this matter.

>

> You are ofcorse free to rant and complain as much as you want. The story and production of content is far along further than what we as players see, often as far as 1 year in advance for recording of voice lines. As such, the realization of your desire is pretty much 0, so the point of implementation is moot.

 

This post is an absolute mess.

[ScyeRynn.4218]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > You're saying it as if SW episode 3 was any better.

>

> No, I'm saying that his character was pivotal to the plot, same as is the case with Braham's character with how ANET is developing the story going forward into S5.

>

> The OP describes his character as "useless". The plot of Prologue says otherwise.

 

 

Useful as a tool to the writers as a piece-mover is not the same as being a useful character because of their innate traits and naturally developing skills.

 

What you mentioned is called a "contrived plot-device".