Permanent fix to Condi Creep in all game modes

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

> @Malicious.3716 said:

> > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > > @ROMANG.1903 said:

> > > > @dusanyu.4057 said:

> > > > Put the cap back on condi stacks to where they were at launch. Condi meta solved.

> > >

> > > Terrible idea. World bosses for example, where you could only have 25 stacks, rendered condi builds completely useless. Should you try to apply your damages when the target is already at 25 stacks, they are completely negated.

> >

> > There is always the split for PvE/PvP/WvW. In fact, they should restrict the stacks to even less than that for PvP/WvW because 25 stack of burn alone is still like 15k damage per tick.

>

> Seriously a split between the game modes would solve everything.

 

They have a split for things like Retaliation, so why not condi stacks eh?

[Aeolus.3615]

> @Kidel.2057 said:

> Protection now also reduces condition damage received.

> Resistance becomes an effect and cannot be stripped.

> Every class can apply max 2 types of conditions and some even just 1 (if it's burning).

> Expertise effectiveness is reduced by 10% or capped.

>

> Done.

 

That would make game to difficult for the target population gw2 is ment for...

 

Game is ment to be stupidly easy on offensive to help bad players, Anet have been dumbing down the game to make game much easyer.

 

 

[mygamingid.5816]

> @RedSPINE.7845 said:

> Under specific circumstances ? Open World is the main thing, that's where 80% of the people spend 80% of their time ! Please, don't kill diversity in the open world.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that Open World is key, but condi would still be very effective. It just wouldn’t be a perfect choice in all conditions. Power would excel against low-health Open World targets, condi would excel against high-health Open World targets. You could still use either against any opponent, but there should be advantages and disadvantages to both. Many attacks have both a power and a condi component, too.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> I would also add that Open World soloing _should_ favor power builds. The opponents are (generally) low health and that's where power's burst should be advantageous. It's okay for a damage type to be better under specific circumstances than another so we have reasons not to run the exact same build all the time.

 

Well, it still does. Even with something like Mirage, I kill normal open world enemies faster with Berserker gear and a sword than I do with Viper's gear and an axe. But I still kill things quickly enough with a condition Mirage build that I can still have fun. If you reduced my condition damage by 50%, even if you boosted the duration of my conditions, I wouldn't have any fun anymore.

 

What I'm saying is that I think you can achieve the same goal as your suggestion with a less-extreme swing, because I think condition burst _can_ be toned down and remain fun. Just not by 50%.

[Wondrouswall.7169]

> @Kidel.2057 said:

> Protection now also reduces condition damage received.

 

Only thing I'll take from that list. Probably adjust Weakness so conditions applied on glancing blows are reduced by 50% as well. Tweaking both would be minor adjustments but still have enough impact.

[Artaz.3819]

Or just queue the damaging conditions to take affect 1 second (1s) later than normal.

 

I spam apply 6 stacks of bleed with one ability. The 6-stack bleed condition is applied to target and debuff icon appears on target (half-faded). The first bleed tick doesn't happen at 1s but is instead delayed for 1 additional second, so it is now 1s + 1s or 2s before the first damage is done (which now shows the normal bleed icon). Less bursty, more reactionary. Counter-play = good. Small tweak to increase ramp-up time, better than a mad crazy nerf.

 

If a condition cleanse affects the Bleed condition, both the current stacks of Active bleed and the Queue bleed stacks are removed.

 

The ANet model damage tweak is how long in the queue before damage from condition is applied (1s may be too little, too much or just right and this can different by game mode). Hint, PvE can stay the same if deemed fine as is.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @mygamingid.5816 said:

> > 1. Reduce condi damage by 50%

> > 2. Extend condi duration by 100%

> >

> > No change to DPS, just less burst from condis and more opportunity to clear them.

>

> I get the core idea here, but I think the effect of this would be to essentially ruin any condition build's ability to operate solo in the open world, which would suck. Something along these lines could help reduce the ability to spike up condition damage quickly, but that much of a change would be too much.

 

I mean, condi splits are already a thing with confusion/torment between the game modes. There's nothing to say that condis across the board could operate this way in PvP but stay as they are now for PvE.

[Conncept.7638]

This is just gamewide nerfs, this would fix the condi meta as effectively as the gamewide might nerfs fixed the old zerker meta, that being **not at all.**

[SkyShroud.2865]

I must say that's some nice pumping of old thread.

 

The easiest way to fix condition is actually revamping the framework of the skills and traits. Current design is break into a very basic direct damage vs condi damage and debuff vs buff. However, the issue here is this, debuff and condi damage come from the same category so it is actually direct vs condi vs buff/cleanse. It is exactly because it is the same category, it is hell lot difficult to balance throughout every game mode. Why same category is harder to balance? Simply because it can be cleansed and since it can be cleanse, it it is used as a justification to boost the damage. For example, boosting it for pvp will boost pve. Anet instead of separating it into distinct category, they decided to go for pvp-only patch (partially because people suggested, lmao).

 

All anet ever have to do is to make condi damage into their own category and debuff as a true debuff. This will then make the game balancing much more simpler because by making condi damage (dot damage) into their own category, they could make it irremovable and because it is irremovable, they can adjust the damage to make it comparable to direct damage. The overall framework will become simplify with direct vs condi and debuff vs buff/cleanse instead of 3 ways of direct vs condi vs buff/cleanse.

 

Anyway, nice pumping old thread.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Malicious.3716 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > "We all agree here that conditions are crazy because they kill you in seconds when you manage to mitigate direct damage in a normal situation."

> >

> > Mitigate all conditions by mitigating the attacks which apply them ...

> > L2P issue.

>

> That's not a L2P issue. People need to stop saying that as a means to dismiss that person's statement. So please explain to me how you mitigate all conditions by mitigating the attacks which apply them? Should I create a build that gives me 100% resistance? Should I create a build that gives me tons of Condi cleanse? Should I build my entire gameplay around cleansing conditions? Can I mitigate them by dodging endlessly? Go invulnerable? Predict instant cast skills like the guardian skill that teleports you to me and instantly bursts me? What about passive AoE condition application? What about sand shades and Wells on the point in conquest that would mean I lose if I don't decap/cap the point. If you are going to claim it's a "L2P" issue then you need to state how one can overcome the current state of conditions, otherwise you are not bringing anything into the conversation.

 

Sure.

 

For example ; deadeyes rifle 4; with Full malice it can one shot me , so as soon as i see the Animation i use my "dodge - key"

 

Its a special key which helps u staying in Fight - very nice. U will evade for ~0.66sec so u can even evade follow up attacks or mutlti dmg hits...

 

..like Mesmer's F2 ( wow dat bridge )

I fight a mesmer now. He just produced his third clone so i'm aware of his shatter. He uses F2 to Stack 10 stacks confu, and 4 torment. I see those filthy clones running at me ( for at least 10 seconds) . situation get's Tricky.. Clones are still Chasing me. ...almost there, BUT THEN SUDDENLY

 

I press my dodge key.

 

Wow mitigated 10 confu + 4 torment in the same way as i mitigated the rifle 4.... L2p

Then there is the necro. I try fighting him on point, dealing good damage , but after 1 minute of fighting i go down to condis. I had to back and use blocks etc, but couldnt kill him( could not do damage while blocking etc)

 

Or ; i left the point for 20 seconds and killed necro from Range cause i wasnt pressured.

Or i go to another point capping it and use my mobility for decap as soon as Scourge Leaves.

Or i realize i'm a bird class vs a Stone and ask other teammates to swap.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Double post

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @leasm.1279 said:

> The devs have already stated the issue with conditions is they are too bursty instead of applying actual damage over time.

>

> We see scourges applying 20 stacks of 2s torment, as well as firebrand applying 15 stacks of 3s burn. This is obviously not damage over time.

>

> So, the suggestion of halving condition damage while doubling duration is sound.

>

> I just don't think the devs are actually taking this issue seriously, since they just released new PoF classes with many skills that apply, say, 3 stacks of burn for 3s (instead of doing it the right way from the start - 1 stack for 9s).

 

Its a lame 6k damage per second with 15 burns. Got hit by autos which dealt more damage

..

[Umbramare.9156]

When i drop people from 100 to 0 with my weaver in two hits thats okay.

 

If I cover you in conditions and you die just as fast - thats not okay.

 

why tho?

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @Umbramare.9156 said:

> When i drop people from 100 to 0 with my weaver in two hits thats okay.

>

> If I cover you in conditions and you die just as fast - thats not okay.

>

> why tho?

 

Because u can mitigate 50% of condi damage at the 50% Duration mark and survive, but u cant heal back from dead if the power build one shoted u.

 

Wait a second...

Power bursts won't allow mistakes, but conditions can be cleanses after applying?

So if im too dump to dodge the 15 stack burn attack i can still cleanse it and survive?

 

Is there some secret self revive Skill i'm missing, because i dont know how am i supposed to comeback into the fight after i was one shoted...

[Opopanax.1803]

Start with removing Resistance AND:

Toughness reduces condi DMG

Protection affects condi DMG

Retaliation affects condi damage

 

Then tune by how much so you have multiple avenues of dealing with condi spam

[Opopanax.1803]

In other games, when you put a dot (damage over time) spell on something, if you reappy it too soon, you simply overwrite it, decreasing efficiency.

 

The problem with DoTs in this game is that they stack and there is no finite mana or resource pool that makes you want to be efficient or make efficiency matter.

[Sephylon.4938]

A few questions I have; if protection now reduces condi damage, how would that stack with light aura? Would giving more access to light aura achieve the same result as making prot reduce condi damage? What would the effect of having both light aura and prot reducing condi damage be on condi builds? i.e: too much or not enough?

 

Now for a suggestion: Making weakness affect condi (either by having it reduce condi damage and/or expertise stats in addition to its current effects or by reducing the out going condi damage/duration of the affected player). Also add a new stat that reduces incoming condi damage and duration. I feel that adding it to toughness will have unforeseen consequences in pve.

[RedSPINE.7845]

I dont think conditions are crazy in PvP, it's just a matter of profession. Scourges scare people when condi Engineer remains a joke.

 

In Raid, if conditions are too strong, then just make vulnerability only increase direct damages. That would be logical since protection, which is supposed to be the opposite of vulnerability, also ignores conditions. And in PvP, I guess it's not a big change since it's not like your opponent is 100% of the time at 25 stacks of vulnerability.

[Westenev.5289]

Personally, I think it's dumb to compare two different damage types when they compete only for DPS. Conditions need another balance pass to make their primary purpose to inhibit the target, rather than this silly "STACK, BURN, DIE" meta we have today.

[Malicious.3716]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @ROMANG.1903 said:

> > > @dusanyu.4057 said:

> > > Put the cap back on condi stacks to where they were at launch. Condi meta solved.

> >

> > Terrible idea. World bosses for example, where you could only have 25 stacks, rendered condi builds completely useless. Should you try to apply your damages when the target is already at 25 stacks, they are completely negated.

>

> There is always the split for PvE/PvP/WvW. In fact, they should restrict the stacks to even less than that for PvP/WvW because 25 stack of burn alone is still like 15k damage per tick.

 

Seriously a split between the game modes would solve everything.> @RedSPINE.7845 said:

> I dont think conditions are crazy in PvP, it's just a matter of profession. Scourges scare people when condi Engineer remains a joke.

>

> In Raid, if conditions are too strong, then just make vulnerability only increase direct damages. That would be logical since protection, which is supposed to be the opposite of vulnerability, also ignores conditions. And in PvP, I guess it's not a big change since it's not like your opponent is 100% of the time at 25 stacks of vulnerability.

 

I actually like this idea. It has potential to be a good change.

[Genesis.5169]

You guys may as well remove condition damage with the changes that were put in this thread because no one would ever go condition if any of these changes were implemented.

[nortask.8351]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > @Umbramare.9156 said:

> > When i drop people from 100 to 0 with my weaver in two hits thats okay.

> >

> > If I cover you in conditions and you die just as fast - thats not okay.

> >

> > why tho?

>

> Because u can mitigate 50% of condi damage at the 50% Duration mark and survive, but u cant heal back from dead if the power build one shoted u.

>

> Wait a second...

> Power bursts won't allow mistakes, but conditions can be cleanses after applying?

> So if im too dump to dodge the 15 stack burn attack i can still cleanse it and survive?

>

> Is there some secret self revive Skill i'm missing, because i dont know how am i supposed to comeback into the fight after i was one shoted...

 

You seem pretty dense, so I'll break it down. If I dodge the necro's first fit of condis and I put damage into him, he is at 50%. If I dodge a deadeye/weaver/guard/holo/good mesmer, I mean shatter mesmers burst and put damage into them, they have to pop their panic skills or passives. What I'm getting at is one is high risk high reward, the other rewards you for spamming condis.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> You guys may as well remove condition damage with the changes that were put in this thread because no one would ever go condition if any of these changes were implemented.

 

This is my problem mostly with suggestions on how to "balance" conditions from members of the forum. Very seldom do people suggest something that isn't some form of " the best way to balance conditions is to make them irrelevant ".

 

That and at times arguments are so so biased. Everything is overdosed with subjectivity instead of objecticity.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"nortask.8351" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > > @Umbramare.9156 said:

> > > When i drop people from 100 to 0 with my weaver in two hits thats okay.

> > >

> > > If I cover you in conditions and you die just as fast - thats not okay.

> > >

> > > why tho?

> >

> > Because u can mitigate 50% of condi damage at the 50% Duration mark and survive, but u cant heal back from dead if the power build one shoted u.

> >

> > Wait a second...

> > Power bursts won't allow mistakes, but conditions can be cleanses after applying?

> > So if im too dump to dodge the 15 stack burn attack i can still cleanse it and survive?

> >

> > Is there some secret self revive Skill i'm missing, because i dont know how am i supposed to comeback into the fight after i was one shoted...

>

> You seem pretty dense, so I'll break it down. If I dodge the necro's first fit of condis and I put damage into him, he is at 50%. If I dodge a deadeye/weaver/guard/holo/good mesmer, I mean shatter mesmers burst and put damage into them, they have to pop their panic skills or passives. What I'm getting at is one is high risk high reward, the other rewards you for spamming condis.

 

Dude i was with you at first , was just sarcastic.

 

Conditions are not the Problem

[AEFA.9035]

> @"RedSPINE.7845" said:

> > @Kidel.2057 said:

> > Protection now also reduces condition damage received.

> > Resistance becomes an effect and cannot be stripped.

> > Every class can apply max 2 types of conditions and some even just 1 (if it's burning).

> > Expertise effectiveness is reduced by 10% or capped.

> >

> > Done.

>

> The protection idea is great, but in a way, it is the way it is because on the other hand you have the Resistance boon. One to counter direct dmg, one to counter condition damage. The problem is Resistance is too crazy, it's a 100 to 0 damage reduction, and it makes you also unaffected by other non-damaging conditions.

> We all agree here that conditions are crazy because they kill you in seconds when you manage to mitigate direct damage in a normal situation.

> Another way to deal with this problem would be to nerf the resistance boon in some way, like making it only affects damaging conditions while stability would prevent impairing conditions. Maybe nerf the 100% damage réduction to 66% or 50%.

> Now you can give every class easy access to Resistance, and make it last longer. Some classes are nearly able to keep Protection all match long, and I think we can make Resistance look more like Protection.

>

> The idea about reducing the number of conditions that one class can apply will never be taken seriously because it involves a total redesign of every class.

 

if that's the case Ranger would be on top for condition damage mitigation. We already have 33% condition damage reduction pluse reduction from condition duration .Unless you'll change those traits overall.

 

But I like your suggestion on resistance definitely would love that.