Condi thief is the least problematic/OP condi spec out there

[Arheundel.6451]

It's unreasonable to complain about condi thieves when there are far worst condi specs out there! People complain about a spec that has vast access **to the least damaging condis in game** , which can be cleared quite effectively by using good condi clear and...some knowledge of fighting **infiltrator's strike**.

 

Fighting a condi thief is nothing like fighting specs like :**condi mirage , terrormancer variants, hybrid firebrand, fire weaver** , the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......**2-3x more sustain than condi thieves** , to that you can add broken gameplay like : fear chain -boon corruption - CC lock.......

 

It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent**

 

I hope anet for once will nerf the right things , which tend to always go undetected till they become too much of an obvious problem

[Sakorath.8910]

Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

[Doto.6357]

Condi s/d is fine but why infinite horizon clone spam mirage is still a thing confounds me. Gut the passive condi bomb from clones and move that damage into shatters.

 

There is absolutely no reason as to why the main source of a Mesmers damage comes from setting up a bunch of clone/turrets and then playing defensively and dodging. The class mechanic is shattering the clones, that’s where the damage should be coming from.

[MyPuppy.8970]

To be fair, condispinning weavers are annoying too, but more avoidable. Most of their damage comes from people not paying attention to them in TF.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> It's unreasonable to complain about condi thieves when there are far worst condi specs out there! People complain about a spec that has vast access **to the least damaging condis in game** , which can be cleared quite effectively by using good condi clear and...some knowledge of fighting **infiltrator's strike**.

>

> Fighting a condi thief is nothing like fighting specs like :**condi mirage , terrormancer variants, hybrid firebrand, fire weaver** , the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......**2-3x more sustain than condi thieves** , to that you can add broken gameplay like : fear chain -boon corruption - CC lock.......

>

> It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent**

>

> I hope anet for once will nerf the right things , which tend to always go undetected till they become too much of an obvious problem

 

Clearly 9.5k poison damage and enough confusion stacks to do 1.2k per skill use on an instant cast, animationless, unlockable attack is the fairest thing in the game compared to the build that is 90% dependant on slow moving projectiles, the ones that depend on aoe fields, melee range and a single damaging condition, and the one that doesn't even do that much damage at all it's just really tanky.

 

Condition Daredevil has always been degenerate every time it's reared it's ugly head back into the game.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Doto.6357" said:

> Condi s/d is fine but why infinite horizon clone spam mirage is still a thing confounds me. Gut the passive condi bomb from clones and move that damage into shatters.

>

> There is absolutely no reason as to why the main source of a Mesmers damage comes from setting up a bunch of clone/turrets and then playing defensively and dodging. The class mechanic is shattering the clones, that’s where the damage should be coming from.

 

nobody wanted to play passive clone condi, they just overnerfed everything. condi shatter legit applies 1 stack of confusion, 1 autoattack from clone is better then entire shatter. why would anyone shatter ever then ?

and the shatter condi is so bad its not even funny. entire condi "bomb" deal less dmg then 1 ability from warrior, while taking time to set up, long cooldown and getting yourself in sticky situation while using ability that just doesnt land sometimes becouse reasons.

 

people complain about clone amubushes but reality is its not a condi bomb, if you 3clone ambush 1 will land, 2 at best when you are lucky. thats 3-8k dmg if not cleansed.

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> It's unreasonable to complain about condi thieves when there are far worst condi specs out there! People complain about a spec that has vast access **to the least damaging condis in game** , which can be cleared quite effectively by using good condi clear and...some knowledge of fighting **infiltrator's strike**.

>

> Fighting a condi thief is nothing like fighting specs like :**condi mirage , terrormancer variants, hybrid firebrand, fire weaver** , the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......**2-3x more sustain than condi thieves** , to that you can add broken gameplay like : fear chain -boon corruption - CC lock.......

>

> It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent**

>

> I hope anet for once will nerf the right things , which tend to always go undetected till they become too much of an obvious problem

 

U missed the point, ppl don't complain about the condi (not me at least) but about they about **the accumulation** of condi + can't catch the thief.

 

Clearly i can clear some condi and after ??? he gonna teleport and comeback while my cleaning still in cd, not everyone has enough access to condi cleaning as weaver ;)

 

the sword 2 2 2 2 mech + the dodges system get thief enough time to kill with condi and escape.

 

An hybrid fb u can face him, probably need +1 to get them down but it's ok.

A terrormancer ? a good cc + very good burst and it's past.

A mirage, once u know how to focus the guy who runing between clones, it's not a big deal, kill him before condi kills u.

A condi weaver, this one gives me sometimes sweat if i waste my burst/cc while he's dancing, i'm done.

 

Since, the thief's main don't understand nether what the problem with condi thief maybe the problem is the sword then, prefer to nerf sword 2 ??? reduce the teleport to 600 maybe 400 :D and u can keep the condi then .....

 

Personally, i don't have problem with condi thief in 1 vs 1 but in +1 (huh he's role) i can't.

[Duiz.6042]

Top of ladder is full of condi thieves, each game is filled with 2 to 4 condi thieves, top players are saying this is bs, top condi thieves themselves are saying this is bs spec, and "It's unreasonable to complain about condi thieves"? Are you playing condi thief and never get that much rating? What is wrong with you?

[Zawn.9647]

Except condi thief applies his damage while evading/dodging :)

It's not the strongest damage wise but its the most annoying on par with mirage

[Doto.6357]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Doto.6357" said:

> > Condi s/d is fine but why infinite horizon clone spam mirage is still a thing confounds me. Gut the passive condi bomb from clones and move that damage into shatters.

> >

> > There is absolutely no reason as to why the main source of a Mesmers damage comes from setting up a bunch of clone/turrets and then playing defensively and dodging. The class mechanic is shattering the clones, that’s where the damage should be coming from.

>

> nobody wanted to play passive clone condi, they just overnerfed everything. condi shatter legit applies 1 stack of confusion, 1 autoattack from clone is better then entire shatter. why would anyone shatter ever then ?

> and the shatter condi is so bad its not even funny. entire condi "bomb" deal less dmg then 1 ability from warrior, while taking time to set up, long cooldown and getting yourself in sticky situation while using ability that just doesnt land sometimes becouse reasons.

>

> people complain about clone amubushes but reality is its not a condi bomb, if you 3clone ambush 1 will land, 2 at best when you are lucky. thats 3-8k dmg if not cleansed.

 

Did you actually read the part where I said “move the damage from infinite horizon into shatters” because judging from what you wrote I do not think you did

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Sakorath.8910" said:

> Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

 

kill a weaver in a single stun.

 

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Zawn.9647" said:

> Except Arcane Elementalist applies his damage while evading/dodging :)

 

 

Fixed it for you.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Sakorath.8910" said:

> Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

 

You conveniently speak in teamfight terms when it comes to terrormancer and fire weaver..but "jump" to 1v1 scenarios when it comes to condi thieves, like they would perform just as good in a teamfight scenario.

 

1) Fire weaver has 3 stunbreaks with evades included (Twist of fate) on top of stability with stance use ( they have 3 stances )

2) Core necro treat for stunbreak on entering DS (10s CD ) plus gaining stab , add Spectral walk as second stunbreak

 

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Again and again and again people use "yo, look there, that boi there, he's broken aswell, why you focus meeeee" argument... Like seriously? I'll write it once again and remember this very well: *Just because other classes/speces are overpowered a bit more in certain areas, that doesn't mean YOURS shouldn't be nerfed before theirs!*

You've pointed out other unhealthy builds for the game that need to be deleted, so what? Suddenly thief compared to others will become "okay"? You're tying to turn situation by 180 degree and point a finger at something else, but in reality you turned it by 360 showing that this spec indeed need nerfs/removal.

Conditions should never be so easy to apply with so many cover condis, or rather, conditions should never be main source of damage if it doesn't have any kind of heavy drawbacks(if you go full power dmg, you shouldn't have high tier sustain close to that of support/tank, that logic should apply to condis aswell, meaning if you go full condi damage, your sustain should be very low). Yes yes, there are classes like Warrior and Yolosmith, they're not balanced either, so don't even bring them into arguments...

[Greyjoy.5167]

There's too much on too many specs.

game needs to be reworked with huge one balance patch. They can work a year on it, I don't care. Just don't try to balance one by one, that's not the way...

[ArthurDent.9538]

Op's argument that because poison and bleed do less damage than confusion, burning, and torment makes condi thief damage weaker than the condi builds which utilize those conditions is extremely flawed. It completely neglects the fact that condis stack in intensity so while 1 stack of burn may do more dps than 1 stack of poison, 1 stack of burn does not do more damage than say 20 stacks of poison. You can't just say torment, burning, and confusion are stronger conditions that do more dps without accounting for number of stacks. Also can't neglect how burn, confusion, and torment only do raw damage, while poison does both raw damage and reduces target healing which means much less damage is required to out sustain a foe.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I actually see more fire weavers and burn guards these days than I do condi thief and I think it's pretty easy to see why.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent**

 

This, but

 

> @"Sakorath.8910" said:

> Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

 

Also this.

 

I'm willing to give up condi thief as it is now, if the assertion of dumping out conditions while porting around/being hard to hit being frustrating and unbalanced also applies to condition Mirage and gets it balanced.

[Oslaf Beinir.5842]

you're joking right? Condi thief is more oppressive than any of the builds you mentioned

 

If i remember right from Sind's stream of the Monthly AT, Flandre's team ran condi thief. must be because it is not a viable op build!

 

 

this degenerate build needs to go back to the garbage can.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"Duiz.6042" said:

> Top of ladder is full of condi thieves, each game is filled with 2 to 4 condi thieves, top players are saying this is bs, top condi thieves themselves are saying this is bs spec, and "It's unreasonable to complain about condi thieves"? Are you playing condi thief and never get that much rating? What is wrong with you?

 

xD But nailed it pretty much!

[ZDragon.3046]

What is this.... you must be kidding lol.

While its true its not the most problematic condi build out there its pretty far up there

 

Its certainly above terrormancer (lmfao) and weaver

The only builds that compete with it are firebrand sage with mantras and mirage which is the strongest condition build in the game when it comes to constant application.

Theif would be just under mirage or just under firebrand

Everything else is easily manageable.

 

Terrormancer builds = not very effective as fear is pretty weak as a condition in 2019 arguably only the most effective on core necromancer builds which are already underpowered compared to say core guardian, ranger, warrior, etc.

Weaver condi = countered by kiting and their main condition is burning remove that single condition and they have no damage it can be pretty hard for a weaver to apply their conditions if the player is paying attention

 

Then you have condi thief that often has 2-3 shadow steps to get to a player in which they only need to dodge or use evasive skills to apply conditions heavily then move back out. While the conditions dont ramp as hard as burning from a weaver the ease and safety of application makes up for it.

 

Poison also does very good damage when thieves take the trait for it.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent.**

 

This is true however looking at some of the other things you listed.

Terrormancer cant win against most classes alone unless it does the same thing its so easy for them to get killed before their slow ramping condis have enough time to do damage which can be stretched out even longer if the foe has any kind of condi cleans (add very limited evades/mobility and almost non existent stability ontop of this)

Weavers are kind of in the same boat they dont just win for free if the person has any idea of how 95% of how most condi weavers play.

 

You are not the only one here it should be clear.

 

> the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......2-3x more sustain than condi thieves

 

Hmmm have you forgotten how much stronger poison becomes when when you take the trait? ITs a flat out 33% damage increase on a condition that you can stack to 8+ stacks with ease. Which also last very long in duration. It also cuts healing heavily reducing the sustain of anyone that you apply it to.

Burning hits harder but wont linger as long

Confusion is not nearly as strong as it use to be

Torment requires your foe to move to reach max damage. (and unless its scourge/mirage torment from core necro is pretty weak)

 

Also about sustain.. no

See you are probably not counting evades as sustain tools but you should, damage avoidance is always going to be one of the best sustain tools you can have in any video game. You use your sustain while applying heavy conditions so that you take practically no damage from attacks while doing so.

 

> > @"Sakorath.8910" said:

> > Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

 

> You conveniently speak in teamfight terms when it comes to terrormancer and fire weaver..but "jump" to 1v1 scenarios when it comes to condi thieves, like they would perform just as good in a teamfight scenario.

 

But you did this as well with your initial post (moving on)

 

Terrormancer does not work very well in team fight scenario's either lol. Fear is not that effective let alone aoe fears. that often last for like 1-2 seconds on a 32 second cooldown in which you hope no one will have resistance or stab, or just plane ole condi removal. Terrormancer itself is crap in team fights you would be looking to apply your other condis which ramp very very very slowly. (mostly bleeds and some torment). Scourge is a bit better with its shades but you know how thats doing right now with the recent changes. (laughable)

 

Weaver and firebrand are far more effective in team fights when it comes to wide spread condi application in quick ramping damage.

 

>

> 1) Fire weaver has 3 stunbreaks with evades included (Twist of fate) on top of stability with stance use ( they have 3 stances )

 

A person should not even be trying to stun a weaver for lockdown unless they have used twist of fate twice already, You simply need to kite them or use lesser condi removals once the burning is gone they have no damage. Once a weaver attempts to burst you twice they are just done. This is survivable even by necro standards should you be paying attention. Thief let alone daredevil thief should easily be able to survive it.

 

> 2) Core necro treat for stunbreak on entering DS (10s CD ) plus gaining stab , add Spectral walk as second stunbreak

Necro can be countered by using chain cc as they have no vigor traits like theif, weaver, or mirage meaning they are bound to get hit if you do this which leads to them popping all their stunbreaks or them just instantly getting screwed (happens to me all the time and there is not much you can do about it. other than hope your foe does not chain cc or that you can dodge some/most of the chain)

 

Theif is by far more effective when it comes to application and burst damage with condition. I dare say with choking gas (which is very good now) + dagger storm their team fight potential is even pretty solid. IT can just dodge or use evasive skills and stack pretty decent burst that will melt you. They also get to keep stun breaks like shadow step and have an elite like dagger storm that they can use in a pinch.

 

The only builds you should compare to condi thief are mirage condi and possibly firebrand condi sage. Every other condi build not nearly on the same level when it comes to oppression, application effectiveness, ramp speed, and counter-play.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent.**

>

> This is true however looking at some of the other things you listed.

> Terrormancer cant win against most classes alone unless it does the same thing its so easy for them to get killed before their slow ramping condis have enough time to do damage which can be stretched out even longer if the foe has any kind of condi cleans (add very limited evades/mobility and almost non existent stability ontop of this)

> Weavers are kind of in the same boat they dont just win for free if the person has any idea of how 95% of how most condi weavers play.

>

> You are not the only one here it should be clear.

>

> > the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......2-3x more sustain than condi thieves

>

> Hmmm have you forgotten how much stronger poison becomes when when you take the trait? ITs a flat out 33% damage increase on a condition that you can stack to 8+ stacks with ease. Which also last very long in duration. It also cuts healing heavily reducing the sustain of anyone that you apply it to.

> Burning hits harder but wont linger as long

> Confusion is not nearly as strong as it use to be

> Torment requires your foe to move to reach max damage. (and unless its scourge/mirage torment from core necro is pretty weak)

>

> Also about sustain.. no

> See you are probably not counting evades as sustain tools but you should, damage avoidance is always going to be one of the best sustain tools you can have in any video game. You use your sustain while applying heavy conditions so that you take practically no damage from attacks while doing so.

>

> > > @"Sakorath.8910" said:

> > > Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

>

> > You conveniently speak in teamfight terms when it comes to terrormancer and fire weaver..but "jump" to 1v1 scenarios when it comes to condi thieves, like they would perform just as good in a teamfight scenario.

>

> But you did this as well with your initial post (moving on)

>

> Terrormancer does not work very well in team fight scenario's either lol. Fear is not that effective let alone aoe fears. that often last for like 1-2 seconds on a 32 second cooldown in which you hope no one will have resistance or stab, or just plane ole condi removal. Terrormancer itself is kitten in team fights you would be looking to apply your other condis which ramp very very very slowly. (mostly bleeds and some torment). Scourge is a bit better with its shades but you know how thats doing right now with the recent changes. (laughable)

>

> Weaver and firebrand are far more effective in team fights when it comes to wide spread condi application in quick ramping damage.

>

> >

> > 1) Fire weaver has 3 stunbreaks with evades included (Twist of fate) on top of stability with stance use ( they have 3 stances )

>

> A person should not even be trying to stun a weaver for lockdown unless they have used twist of fate twice already, You simply need to kite them or use lesser condi removals once the burning is gone they have no damage. Once a weaver attempts to burst you twice they are just done. This is survivable even by necro standards should you be paying attention. Thief let alone daredevil thief should easily be able to survive it.

>

> > 2) Core necro treat for stunbreak on entering DS (10s CD ) plus gaining stab , add Spectral walk as second stunbreak

> Necro can be countered by using chain cc as they have no vigor traits like theif, weaver, or mirage meaning they are bound to get hit if you do this which leads to them popping all their stunbreaks or them just instantly getting screwed (happens to me all the time and there is not much you can do about it. other than hope your foe does not chain cc or that you can dodge some/most of the chain)

>

> Theif is by far more effective when it comes to application and burst damage with condition. I dare say with choking gas (which is very good now) + dagger storm their team fight potential is even pretty solid. IT can just dodge or use evasive skills and stack pretty decent burst that will melt you. They also get to keep stun breaks like shadow step and have an elite like dagger storm that they can use in a pinch.

>

> The only builds you should compare to condi thief are mirage condi and possibly firebrand condi sage. Every other condi build not nearly on the same level when it comes to oppression, application effectiveness, ramp speed, and counter-play.

 

I disagree fire weavers can burst an opponent down faster than a condi thief and if there good with their evades and water attunment swapping they can almost require two opponents to down, or it takes too long for one opponent to bother doing. Fire weaver, burn guard/fb and condi mirage on top of holo are all far more broken than condi thief.

Regardless their all garbage cheese specs/builds so who cares in the end as they all fit into the direction this games pvp is going.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent.**

> >

> > This is true however looking at some of the other things you listed.

> > Terrormancer cant win against most classes alone unless it does the same thing its so easy for them to get killed before their slow ramping condis have enough time to do damage which can be stretched out even longer if the foe has any kind of condi cleans (add very limited evades/mobility and almost non existent stability ontop of this)

> > Weavers are kind of in the same boat they dont just win for free if the person has any idea of how 95% of how most condi weavers play.

> >

> > You are not the only one here it should be clear.

> >

> > > the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......2-3x more sustain than condi thieves

> >

> > Hmmm have you forgotten how much stronger poison becomes when when you take the trait? ITs a flat out 33% damage increase on a condition that you can stack to 8+ stacks with ease. Which also last very long in duration. It also cuts healing heavily reducing the sustain of anyone that you apply it to.

> > Burning hits harder but wont linger as long

> > Confusion is not nearly as strong as it use to be

> > Torment requires your foe to move to reach max damage. (and unless its scourge/mirage torment from core necro is pretty weak)

> >

> > Also about sustain.. no

> > See you are probably not counting evades as sustain tools but you should, damage avoidance is always going to be one of the best sustain tools you can have in any video game. You use your sustain while applying heavy conditions so that you take practically no damage from attacks while doing so.

> >

> > > > @"Sakorath.8910" said:

> > > > Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?

> >

> > > You conveniently speak in teamfight terms when it comes to terrormancer and fire weaver..but "jump" to 1v1 scenarios when it comes to condi thieves, like they would perform just as good in a teamfight scenario.

> >

> > But you did this as well with your initial post (moving on)

> >

> > Terrormancer does not work very well in team fight scenario's either lol. Fear is not that effective let alone aoe fears. that often last for like 1-2 seconds on a 32 second cooldown in which you hope no one will have resistance or stab, or just plane ole condi removal. Terrormancer itself is kitten in team fights you would be looking to apply your other condis which ramp very very very slowly. (mostly bleeds and some torment). Scourge is a bit better with its shades but you know how thats doing right now with the recent changes. (laughable)

> >

> > Weaver and firebrand are far more effective in team fights when it comes to wide spread condi application in quick ramping damage.

> >

> > >

> > > 1) Fire weaver has 3 stunbreaks with evades included (Twist of fate) on top of stability with stance use ( they have 3 stances )

> >

> > A person should not even be trying to stun a weaver for lockdown unless they have used twist of fate twice already, You simply need to kite them or use lesser condi removals once the burning is gone they have no damage. Once a weaver attempts to burst you twice they are just done. This is survivable even by necro standards should you be paying attention. Thief let alone daredevil thief should easily be able to survive it.

> >

> > > 2) Core necro treat for stunbreak on entering DS (10s CD ) plus gaining stab , add Spectral walk as second stunbreak

> > Necro can be countered by using chain cc as they have no vigor traits like theif, weaver, or mirage meaning they are bound to get hit if you do this which leads to them popping all their stunbreaks or them just instantly getting screwed (happens to me all the time and there is not much you can do about it. other than hope your foe does not chain cc or that you can dodge some/most of the chain)

> >

> > Theif is by far more effective when it comes to application and burst damage with condition. I dare say with choking gas (which is very good now) + dagger storm their team fight potential is even pretty solid. IT can just dodge or use evasive skills and stack pretty decent burst that will melt you. They also get to keep stun breaks like shadow step and have an elite like dagger storm that they can use in a pinch.

> >

> > The only builds you should compare to condi thief are mirage condi and possibly firebrand condi sage. Every other condi build not nearly on the same level when it comes to oppression, application effectiveness, ramp speed, and counter-play.

>

> I disagree fire weavers can burst an opponent down faster than a condi thief and if there good with their evades and water attunment swapping they can almost require two opponents to down, or it takes too long for one opponent to bother doing. Fire weaver, burn guard/fb and condi mirage on top of holo are all far more broken than condi thief.

 

I didnt say they couldnt burst them down quicker how ever its much harder for them to do even more so if you see the weaver coming at you. In alot of cases you even see them pop their glyph of elemental power in fire before they do it "once that burst misses" they are just kind free assuming you dont stand in primordial stance while fire is on. (if they wnat to really burst they MUST be in fire) and from day 1 its never been in eles favor to sit in one element for too long or they just die. Any time they leave fire they are pretty open for the taking.

 

Now looking at theif. Who has multiple ways to blink to you and can apply all its condi pressure while evading attacks not nearly as much as weaver i think its fair to say that between the two there is a vast difference in potential ways to counter them. Its much harder for a weaver to retreat than it is for a condi theif. IF condi theif lands the steal and recharges spider venom they pretty much reset their burst.

 

> Regardless their all garbage cheese specs/builds so who cares in the end as they all fit into the direction this games pvp is going.

 

Lets just say ive learned how to deal with condition weavers. Unless one really really catches me off guard or plays vastly different from the majority their kills on me are not anywhere near as free as condi theif.

 

condi thief can apply their lesser damaging condis with much more ease while playing alot safer at the same time.

That said im still not calling for out right nerfs on them just yet but i just think the OP is very incorrect in trying to say that some of the other classes are better and not nearly as crazy as condi thief.

 

might not hit as hard but you still hit pretty hard and its alot safer when going in to apply those condis.

 

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

The issue is the Immob on sword and how it interacts with poison. remove the immob and replace it with Chill or Cripple and the spec would be fine.

 

Instead what Anet will do is continue to gut Deadly Arts just like the last time S/D Condi was meta instead of actually dealing with the S/D part of the build (which is the problematic part)