An Argument for the Return of Hard Mode

[Ashen.2907]

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> Not sure how you could implement something like this in open world and still call it optional.

>

> If you're Tanky McHardcore with Elite Bonecrusher Mode active in, say, Queensdale, how do you reconcile your beefed-up mob groups with new players, low-levels, or others who have not activated the challenge mode? The closest we have to something like this now are the bandit bounties and the legendary executioners who are purposefully placed out of the way as not to interfere with casual gameplay; this is the point.

>

> In GW2, challenges are separated in such a way that you can pick your path: Raids are their own game mode. PvP is its own game mode. Dungeons are their own game mode. Champions and world bosses are set to spawn in specific places or in reaction to player concentration to ensure that they can always be avoided or defeated.

>

> At the moment, I see no way to implement a world-wide 'hard mode' that wouldn't disrupt other people or open the door for serious abuse using upgraded mobs against players who aren't interested.

 

A separate hard mode nstance of each map perhaps.

[Xeno.1298]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

> > >

> > > I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

> >

> > It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

> >

>

> Yes it does matter what the source of the challenge is. If I want to see what challenges I can overcome with my character at his best then playing him not at his best doesn't serve.

>

> It would be like a runner trying to see how fast he can run, not by running faster but by tying himself to the starting blocks.

 

Wrong, source doesn't matter if it's just personal challenge one seeks. Personally setting different boundaries for what limits one's "best" has the same result as potential "best" being determined for you. If the Running Rules Association makes being tied to the blocks the new rule it's no different than if you had decided that for yourself when it comes to personal challenge. Either way, obtaining your "best" speed now also requires sufficient strength to pull loose the blocks and the agility to run without becoming tripped up by the attached rope, cable, chain, or whatever. Asking for new rules to increase challenge for you isn't really a necessity when you can make your own rules to challenge yourself.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> > Not sure how you could implement something like this in open world and still call it optional.

> >

> > If you're Tanky McHardcore with Elite Bonecrusher Mode active in, say, Queensdale, how do you reconcile your beefed-up mob groups with new players, low-levels, or others who have not activated the challenge mode? The closest we have to something like this now are the bandit bounties and the legendary executioners who are purposefully placed out of the way as not to interfere with casual gameplay; this is the point.

> >

> > In GW2, challenges are separated in such a way that you can pick your path: Raids are their own game mode. PvP is its own game mode. Dungeons are their own game mode. Champions and world bosses are set to spawn in specific places or in reaction to player concentration to ensure that they can always be avoided or defeated.

> >

> > At the moment, I see no way to implement a world-wide 'hard mode' that wouldn't disrupt other people or open the door for serious abuse using upgraded mobs against players who aren't interested.

>

> A separate hard mode nstance of each map perhaps.

With the limited resources that Anet seems to have, I can't see duplicating all of the maps with a "hard mode" element would be beneficial to the entire community at the cost of producing additional, new content. I don't have the statistics (but am sure that Anet does), but my experience leads me to believe that those truly interested in a hard mode -- enough to sustain it -- would be a small sample of the entire player base. I don't believe that this would justify the expenditure of resources.

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> >

> > Yes it does matter what the source of the challenge is. If I want to see what challenges I can overcome with my character at his best then playing him not at his best doesn't serve.

> >

> > It would be like a runner trying to see how fast he can run, not by running faster but by tying himself to the starting blocks.

>

> Wrong, source doesn't matter if it's just personal challenge one seeks. Personally setting different boundaries for what limits one's "best" has the same result as potential "best" being determined for you. If the Running Rules Association makes being tied to the blocks the new rule it's no different than if you had decided that for yourself when it comes to personal challenge. Either way, obtaining your "best" speed now also requires sufficient strength to pull loose the blocks and the agility to run without becoming tripped up by the attached rope, cable, chain, or whatever. Asking for new rules to increase challenge for you isn't really a necessity when you can make your own rules to challenge yourself.

 

Your assertion does not take into account that one of the primary goals of a role-playing game is character progression. Maxing out what a character can do in GW2 (and many other RPG's) _includes_ everything that feeds into that process. Choosing to ignore that aspect of progression flies in the face of what the genre offers. Despite how you and some others view this issue, it can and will ruin the process for some other players.

[Xeno.1298]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > >

> > > Yes it does matter what the source of the challenge is. If I want to see what challenges I can overcome with my character at his best then playing him not at his best doesn't serve.

> > >

> > > It would be like a runner trying to see how fast he can run, not by running faster but by tying himself to the starting blocks.

> >

> > Wrong, source doesn't matter if it's just personal challenge one seeks. Personally setting different boundaries for what limits one's "best" has the same result as potential "best" being determined for you. If the Running Rules Association makes being tied to the blocks the new rule it's no different than if you had decided that for yourself when it comes to personal challenge. Either way, obtaining your "best" speed now also requires sufficient strength to pull loose the blocks and the agility to run without becoming tripped up by the attached rope, cable, chain, or whatever. Asking for new rules to increase challenge for you isn't really a necessity when you can make your own rules to challenge yourself.

>

> Your assertion does not take into account that one of the primary goals of a role-playing game is character progression. Maxing out what a character can do in GW2 (and many other RPG's) _includes_ everything that feeds into that process. Choosing to ignore that aspect of progression flies in the face of what the genre offers. Despite how you and some others view this issue, it can and will ruin the process for some other players.

 

It takes into account that that is not and never has been the primary goal of THIS game. As far as PvE, GW2 is decidedly focused on exploration, story, and cosmetic rewards. Neither GW1 or 2 have changed max level caps or substantially increased gear stats. Folks will have to go elsewhere if they're looking for perpetual gear grind, extended leveling, and slowly perfected min-maxing. Acquiring max level and top stats gear doesn't take long at all and GW2 is committed to lateral character progression. As far as mastering gameplay, it comes down to knowledge of game mechanics and personal skill in the end, not character progression.

 

As has been pointed out repeatedly, those that don't feel challenged by the game have many options to challenge themselves if they don't want to remain forever frustrated. A new mode where mobs throughout the entire game have more and different abilities is rather certainly not going to happen, it's too costly a time and resource investment for a development team that has been gutted and shrunk from when they were already having difficulty meeting their own goals, much less the wishes of the players. While the grumbling option always remains open, I still suggest those who feel the game is insufficiently demanding take advantage of the opportunity to do what they can themselves.

 

[Blude.6812]

A simple No Thanks

[Stand The Wall.6987]

don't listen to the haters.

hard mode is a great idea for any game. ppl that are saying "well it will split the playerbase". so? you can apply that logic to any new content. might as well not have any new maps, raids, or fractals since it will take away players from the rest of us. ppl wanting to play something that took a lot of time and is generally abandoned is a good thing. it adds re-playability for the players, and more value to the content. what right do you have to say that someone shouldn't do something they want to do cuz you don't want to feel alone? thats your problem. if you want to play with people, join a guild.

 

the argument "use white gear" is also a bad one. sure it adds a bit of difficulty, but at the end of the day, all it does is add on kill time. you would have to not only adjust stats but add some low cd skills and perhaps some behavior changes to the npcs to make them challenging.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> It takes into account that that is not and never has been the primary goal of THIS game.

 

I guess the expansion and living world areas/mobs are as easy as core tyria and there is no challenge/difficulty "progression" in this game. Oh wait there is, there has been a serious effort ever since the first content patch appeared (Shadow of the Mad King in October 2012) to increase the overall difficulty of the game, including the open world areas. This game is no different than all other RPGs it just focuses on the player getting better at playing the game and using better builds, instead of getting better gear over time. The gap between a well played character and a badly played character, a good build and a bad build, is gigantic in this game, even the developers admitted something along the lines of 10x difference in damage potential.

 

As for the beaten horse of "self-imposed challenge", if I go and fight naked a Moa in Queensdale, it won't become as challenging as a Smokescale. If I go fight a Risen in Cursed Shore with auto-attacks and no dodging, it won't become as challenging as fighting an Awakened Canid. And let's not forget this is the open world, no matter how many penalties you apply to yourself, it won't make fighting Taidha Convigton any harder.

 

Now for the time and investment argument, this isn't an issue, provided they return their releases to how they were in Season 1, changing existing maps. I don't expect a "hard mode" to be added to the entire game, that would be silly, unrealistic and unreasonable, but changing certain zones by adding new types of mobs isn't something new for Arenanet. Kessex Hills has a lot of new kinds of mobs that are much better than anything available on the map originally, Iron Marches has some new ones too (like the old school pre-nerf Mordrem Wolf boss) and others. That would be the best way to implement a form of "hard mode" on old Core Tyria maps, which is the way they've been doing it for years before the expansions.

 

If I recall they even stated than this season will change old zones, not only add new ones, so there is still hope for Core Tyria.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> With the limited resources that Anet seems to have, I can't see duplicating all of the maps with a "hard mode" element would be beneficial to the entire community at the cost of producing additional, new content. I don't have the statistics (but am sure that Anet does), but my experience leads me to believe that those truly interested in a hard mode -- enough to sustain it -- would be a small sample of the entire player base. I don't believe that this would justify the expenditure of resources.

>

 

The first episode of Season 1, Flame and Frost, modified Wayfarer Foothills and Diessa Plateau, adding new types of more challenging mobs.

The Tower of Nighmares modified Kessex Hills with new types of mobs all over the map

The Twisted Marionette modified Lornar's Pass with new types of mechanical enemies created by Scarlet

 

This is how Arenanet implemented a "hard mode" for old zones in the past, and the only realistic way of doing it again in the future

 

Only maybe next time it will be permanent