Next rip for necro - active of signet of undeath useless!?

[KrHome.1920]

Quick test with the passive:

 

Core Signet Necro with signet trait: can be extremely frustrating to fight (sustain!) but lacks pressure itself - on the other hand the shroud uptime is so ridiculously high, that almost everytime you leave shroud all your utilities are back off cooldown. You can spam the heal signet.

 

Power Reaper: don't underestimate that 4% regen! That's 12% on the 10s shroud cooldown. It's a not too bad addition to spectral armor and walk.

 

Support Scourge: nice LF regen buff as this build did already use the signet before.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > Hey cheer up, SoU is now one of our highest hitting skill... Thought it hit us...

>

> Unless it's a bug or there are ways to mitigate the damage it's not going to see active use.

>

> I get that's it's technically the one with the lowest cast time and cooldown (when traited) but it doesn't warrant the cost.

>

> There is no way to use this in competitive modes without consigning yourself to death...

 

It's more accurate to say that there is no way to use it anywhere. But I stand on my point, no other profession have a skill that can deal 9606 point of damage reliably even if it's on themself.

 

Ah! ANet always amaze me!

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > Hey cheer up, SoU is now one of our highest hitting skill... Thought it hit us...

> >

> > Unless it's a bug or there are ways to mitigate the damage it's not going to see active use.

> >

> > I get that's it's technically the one with the lowest cast time and cooldown (when traited) but it doesn't warrant the cost.

> >

> > There is no way to use this in competitive modes without consigning yourself to death...

>

> It's more accurate to say that there is no way to use it anywhere. But I stand on my point, no other profession have a skill that can deal 9606 point of damage reliably even if it's on themself.

>

> Ah! ANet always amaze me!

 

Overheating photo forge does a similar amount of damage relative to health total. Not the same though..they can make use of forge without the huge cost.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Quick test with the passive:

>

> Core Signet Necro with signet trait: can be extremely frustrating to fight (sustain!) but lacks pressure itself - on the other hand the shroud uptime is so ridiculously high, that almost everytime you leave shroud all your utilities are back off cooldown. You can spam the heal signet.

>

> Power Reaper: don't underestimate that 4% regen! That's 12% on the 10s shroud cooldown. It's a not too bad addition to spectral armor and walk.

>

> Support Scourge: nice LF regen buff as this build did already use the signet before.

 

incorrect considering ive used this build long before it was ever considered being buffed. Trust me if someone with real damage wants you dead you will die. the small increase that came with todays patch is not enough to buffer some one who really knows how to play their profession and is built for damage.

 

Ive been an off meta user of the SoS + undeath passive for a very long time so i already knew that running it made you more tanky but most people didnt know this and will think that only because of todays buff that its a good combo when in reality it already did what you are claiming for the most part to me these buffs are very minor and will make the build a bit stronger but not much stronger than it already was dont be fooled lol.

[KrHome.1920]

I messed around with signet necro too a few times. Basicaly the only reason I gave up was plague signet which kills you when traited right in the moment an ally shows up.

 

Unfortunately plague signet is generally one of the better signets necro has. So the trait turns it into the opposite and hurts that otherwise quite viable build.

 

I was talking about something else: 1% LF degeneration combined with some high vita+toughness build (paladin) will frustrate your target more than ever before.

[misterman.1530]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> I messed around with signet necro too a few times. Basicaly the only reason I gave up was plague signet which kills you when traited right in the moment an ally shows up.

>

> Unfortunately plague signet is generally one of the better signets necro has. So the trait turns it into the opposite and hurts that otherwise quite viable build.

>

> I was talking about something else: 1% LF degeneration combined with some high vita+toughness build (paladin) will frustrate your target more than ever before.

 

It will frustrate them more. Instead of insta-downing us in one hit, a DE will now take 2, maybe 3 hits before they kill us. That's an "improvement"...I guess (?).

 

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> I messed around with signet necro too a few times. Basicaly the only reason I gave up was plague signet which kills you when traited right in the moment an ally shows up.

>

> Unfortunately plague signet is generally one of the better signets necro has. So the trait turns it into the opposite and hurts that otherwise quite viable build.

>

> I was talking about something else: 1% LF degeneration combined with some high vita+toughness build (paladin) will frustrate your target more than ever before.

 

Again you still die quickly to some who really knows how to play the game.

 

Toughness is not very valuable right how with how high damage is in general. IF someone else is not invested into full damage yes you will be tanky. If someone is glass cannon with blocks/invulns to cover lack of defensive stats or traits you will die just as fast. its kind of silly.

 

Also yes I dont run plague sig in my setup just vamp and undeath the other slots are usually spectral walk and armor which leaves me very vulnerable to condition burst but generally more tanky to power damage than other necro/reaper setsups allow without losing all my damage.

 

You basically take a risk and trade condition removal and boon corruption for increased sustain while allowing you to keep your damage. vs droping your damage for increased sustain but being able to keep more clears and corrupts in your kit.

 

I cant wait to test my setup when i get home to see how much stronger its going to be with this minor change but yet i hate what they have done to the active of the signet.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > I messed around with signet necro too a few times. Basicaly the only reason I gave up was plague signet which kills you when traited right in the moment an ally shows up.

> >

> > Unfortunately plague signet is generally one of the better signets necro has. So the trait turns it into the opposite and hurts that otherwise quite viable build.

> >

> > I was talking about something else: 1% LF degeneration combined with some high vita+toughness build (paladin) will frustrate your target more than ever before.

>

> It will frustrate them more. Instead of insta-downing us in one hit, a DE will now take 2, maybe 3 hits before they kill us. That's an "improvement"...I guess (?).

You don't die quickly when you cast spectral armor before entering shroud on paladin gear. I am doing this for years now even in zerg fights. And the benefit of the healing signet active in shroud is something I would not underestimate. You have basically a constant healing source.

 

 

[LucianDK.8615]

Decided to do some testing.

Full berserker gear on my reaper and no buffs of any sort.. Taking Signets of Suffering to empower Signet of Undeath, as well Fear of Death. Trying it on the practice dummy with Infusing Terror/Terrify as the fear source, I was able to have six soul spirals from a single lifeforce bar. Though that would be without taking any damage, and no aditional incomming lifeforce from kills.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > I messed around with signet necro too a few times. Basicaly the only reason I gave up was plague signet which kills you when traited right in the moment an ally shows up.

> > >

> > > Unfortunately plague signet is generally one of the better signets necro has. So the trait turns it into the opposite and hurts that otherwise quite viable build.

> > >

> > > I was talking about something else: 1% LF degeneration combined with some high vita+toughness build (paladin) will frustrate your target more than ever before.

> >

> > It will frustrate them more. Instead of insta-downing us in one hit, a DE will now take 2, maybe 3 hits before they kill us. That's an "improvement"...I guess (?).

> You don't die quickly when you cast spectral armor before entering shroud on paladin gear. I am doing this for years now even in zerg fights. And the benefit of the healing signet active in shroud is something I would not underestimate. You have basically a constant healing source.

>

>

 

Yes but then thats not signet of undeath doing that its spectral armor :P

And i dont underestimate it as i said i use it in my setup its good but its not great.

Keep in mind you have to get hit for it to trigger and against big meaty hitting attacks its nto good if you take lots of chip damage hits its very good.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > Decided to do some testing.

> > Full berserker gear on my reaper and no buffs of any sort.. Taking Signets of Suffering to empower Signet of Undeath, as well Fear of Death. Trying it on the practice dummy with Infusing Terror/Terrify as the fear source, I was able to have six soul spirals from a single lifeforce bar. Though that would be without taking any damage, and no aditional incomming lifeforce from kills.

>

> Already a doable thing if you have enough targets in pve as the 3rd part of the auto chain graints life force if you have enough enemies with high hp and you dont take damage just using your auto attack can keep your shroud meter quite high. Signet of sufffering is a minor bonus tbh. good but minor > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > > I messed around with signet necro too a few times. Basicaly the only reason I gave up was plague signet which kills you when traited right in the moment an ally shows up.

> > > >

> > > > Unfortunately plague signet is generally one of the better signets necro has. So the trait turns it into the opposite and hurts that otherwise quite viable build.

> > > >

> > > > I was talking about something else: 1% LF degeneration combined with some high vita+toughness build (paladin) will frustrate your target more than ever before.

> > >

> > > It will frustrate them more. Instead of insta-downing us in one hit, a DE will now take 2, maybe 3 hits before they kill us. That's an "improvement"...I guess (?).

> > You don't die quickly when you cast spectral armor before entering shroud on paladin gear. I am doing this for years now even in zerg fights. And the benefit of the healing signet active in shroud is something I would not underestimate. You have basically a constant healing source.

> >

> >

>

> Yes but then thats not signet of undeath doing that its spectral armor :P

 

But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

 

Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

 

 

[LucianDK.8615]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

>

> Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

>

>

 

I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> >

> > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> >

> >

>

> I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

 

Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

 

in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

 

In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> > >

> > > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

>

> Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

>

> in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

>

> In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.

 

I said the testing was with fear of death, which gives up soul barbs. For lulz I tried adding blighters boon on top. 7 soul spirals on 1 lifeforce bar, and halfway to 8.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > > > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> > > >

> > > > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

> >

> > Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

> >

> > in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

> >

> > In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.

>

> I said the testing was with fear of death, which gives up soul barbs. For lulz I tried adding blighters boon on top. 7 soul spirals on 1 lifeforce bar, and halfway to 8.

 

IF you get to 10 you get a spectral cookie

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > > > > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> > > > >

> > > > > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

> > >

> > > Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

> > >

> > > in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

> > >

> > > In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.

> >

> > I said the testing was with fear of death, which gives up soul barbs. For lulz I tried adding blighters boon on top. 7 soul spirals on 1 lifeforce bar, and halfway to 8.

>

> IF you get to 10 you get a spectral cookie

 

Maybe doable with corruptions (Consume Conditions and Epidemic, in that order) and Spectral Walk? I honestly don't know. That's likely to only get you to 8.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > > > > > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

> > > >

> > > > Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

> > > >

> > > > in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

> > > >

> > > > In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.

> > >

> > > I said the testing was with fear of death, which gives up soul barbs. For lulz I tried adding blighters boon on top. 7 soul spirals on 1 lifeforce bar, and halfway to 8.

> >

> > IF you get to 10 you get a spectral cookie

>

> Maybe doable with corruptions (Consume Conditions and Epidemic, in that order) and Spectral Walk? I honestly don't know. That's likely to only get you to 8.

 

if you have alacrity you could probably already get 10 with what he is doing that said im not sure if he is testing in the pvp area or in special forces training area.

[LucianDK.8615]

Used the indestructible pvp dummy to be able to keep attacking without the target dying on me.

[RisenHowl.2419]

Warhorn and chilling victory, though I doubt cv giving you more uptime to AA is worth the 10% damage tradeoff

[LucianDK.8615]

But I am still wanting to hear from someone taking a good deep look at the math of signet of undeath to see how it stacks up for dps. compared with the usual alternatives.

[HardRider.2980]

Passive is amazing and well made.

Active is dog useless.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> But I am still wanting to hear from someone taking a good deep look at the math of signet of undeath to see how it stacks up for dps. compared with the usual alternatives.

 

For both core and reaper you don't want to stay longer than 10 seconds straigth in shroud, as for scourge, you don't have much control on shroud uptime. Additionally, SoU add absolutely 0 damage as an utility. Thus, however you put it, it's value for a dps build is really poor.

 

The only value of SoU is in sustain which can have an impact on tanky and support builds. Knowing how many _soul spiral_ can be done in a single shroud instance have absolutely no value in regard of DPS, because after 10 seconds in shroud you fall already 10% below your peak damage window. And this measly 10% damage loss don't even take into account the loss you incur for taking a support utility skill instead of an offesive one nor does it take into account the losses for not using your out of shroud dps skills in a proper rotation.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Signet of Undeath has value for DPS condi Scourge as it lets them use F2-5 more frequently. Other DPS builds, not so much.

[Levijeh.9643]

The signet will surely give you rapid life force generation overtime, but you lose an utility slot for something better like spectral walk or spectral ring. For me it's not worth taking signet of undeath. Losing that much HP for 1 res is not worth it.