Firebrand is OP

[Ouk.5914]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWABc6t/lRwiYPsMmJOsX9vKA-z5YfKRqAyUE0tEIlhgNGA

 

My Meme FB Build :)

 

Took me a few mins to learn how to properly "spam" my dps onto a node and just see people die lmfao.

 

Fb isn't OP at all........said no one ever.

 

lmfao Axe 2 - Slow, Chill, Daze, Cripple, Bleed, Burns and gives Vulnerability ALL ON A 8 second Cool down?

 

Axe 3 -Burn, Slow, Chill, Bleed and Pulls an enemy all for a 12 second cool down

 

I can keep listing a few traits and skills that makes this entire spec completely busted at the moment but literally just by making my own Meme fb build you can see how much dps they can dish out with such low cool-downs and a massive kite to keep themselves sustain. This Issue is ONLY WITH DPS fb but full support fb isn't a problem at all unless you start stacking FB into a game......

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:

> Also, guard has plenty of defensive skills outside of aegis, many of which are available to and used by the meta mantra bunker or symbolbrand builds.

 

Name them?

 

The only other meaningful ones are Mantra of Truth (against power), which is also on your hit-list for removal, CoP (against condi) and Renewed Focus, which is on 90s CD (symbolbrand doesn't take meditation CD reduction).

 

Now compare that to, I dunno, every other class.

 

FB gets 1 Aegis every 5 seconds. So mitigate 1 hit every 5 seconds. Thief *easily* mitigates more that 1 per 5 seconds with evades. SpB *easily* mitigates more than 1 per 5 seconds with its array of defensive tools. Mirage *easily* mitigates more than 1 per 5 seconds with its array of defensive tools. Just equipping a scepter as a mesmer is already providing almost the same blocks as an entire FB's toolkit. Herald *easily*& mitigates more than 1 per 5 seconds with its evades and staff blocks. I could go on....

 

If your argument is that all (well, most) PoF classes are OP, you should have made a thread about that. Not one titled "Firebrand is OP". And even if that was all you wanted to focus on, you should have presented the reasons in terms of what roles it is overperforming in. Simply listing out the traits and skills isn't even a bad argument, it just isn't an argument at all. I can go and list out Herald's skills, that doesn't constitute an argument. I would need to comment on how it is over-performing in the Roamer role and is a little too easy to chain evades given how much damage it can also do.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:

> > Some fun FB facts.

> > Aegis:

> > Between mantra of solace, shield of judgement, and the f3 passive, FB gets roughly 2 aegis applications every 10 seconds.

> >

> > CC:

> > Between Axe 2&3, shield 5, and one use of heated rebuke (f1 chpt 3) per cooldown, FB gets roughly 2.5 hard cc every 10 seconds. With the stoic demeanor trait, this also means FB puts out roughly 6 seconds of slow every 10 seconds.

> >

> > Quickness:

> > Assuming the use of stalwart speed and swift scholar, FB gets almost 50% quickness uptime, which for some odd reason has a minor trait which gives 250 healing, 250 toughness, and 250 condi damage while the boon is active.

> >

> > Additionally, FB can regularly output 6 condis on a target, regardless of being built for condi or power damage.

> > All of this is assuming no use of cd reduction traits, and no use of renewed focus.

> > And then there is passive healing through aegis, symbols, dodge roll.

> > And also all their active defense skills, and other high impact boons

> > And their amazing condi clear/conversion.

> > And also most of their skills are large aoe.

> >

> > ??????

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> All you've done is list the things that a class has, and then suggested that by having stuff it must be OP.

>

> Look, I can do this too. You can do it for any class; just make a list of all of its traits and skills, with no comparison to other classes, and anything can sound OP.

>

> Some fun Daredevil facts.

>

> They get an additional 50 endurance that no other class gets.

> Heal 456 on dodge with 1s CD, which is better than warrior healing signet, just from a minor trait

> Remove Condi on dodge, 1s CD

> Apply weakness after every dodge

> Gain an extra dodge on steal (lets ignore that this is using the PvE values eh? wHy DoN't YoU cOnTrIbUtE pOsItIvElY?!

> Applies 3 condis on dodge

> Remove impairing conditions on dodge

> Leap finisher on dodge

> Boon rip every steal

> Torment on interrupt

> Massive damage multipliers

> Bandit's Defense gives better block than guardian AND low CD stunbreak?

> Better portal than mesmer

> Steal does confusion

> Steal does interrupt

> Infinite escape on shortbow

> Etc

> Etc

> Etc

>

> What's that you say? You can't take all of this stuff in the same build? wHy DoN't YoU cOnTrIbUtE pOsItIvElY?!

>

> And does all of this stuff actually make daredevil OP, or is it just a pointless list of things the class can do, since every class needs to be able to do some thing?

>

> Yes, FB has alot of Aegis; it's the classes base defence mechanic. It doesn't get evades or invulns or stealth or superspeed or channeled blocks. Okay, so lets take away Aegis. What FB skills are you going to add Evade to instead? Maybe a Stealth utility? Be sensible.

>

> So your complaint is that FB is allowed to defend itself? What you really want is to be able to play against defenceless test-dummies that can't defend themselves or fight back, so you can farm free wins?

 

This actually needs to be stickied

[Ovark.2514]

Bumping this thread because it's the largest outlier in the game atm. FB is so incredibly unfun to fight, and it always takes like 2-3 ppl 2 mins to kill one.

[Tycura.1982]

They're pretty stronk. Op? Maybe a bit overtuned with mantras. Maybe a global cooldown on cast for mantras or longer recharge times would curb them a bit. But it's not that big of a deal. They rotate as slow as a necro and die to focus all the same.

[ollbirtan.2915]

OP and the post 'bumpers' clearly have very little knowledge about FB and pvp in general. How about we just nerf every class? Everyone is equal, has 1 HP, and the only skill available is auto attack. Now THAT would be fun, wouldn't it?

[Ovark.2514]

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said:

> OP and the post 'bumpers' clearly have very little knowledge about FB and pvp in general. How about we just nerf every class? Everyone is equal, has 1 HP, and the only skill available is auto attack. Now THAT would be fun, wouldn't it?

 

Be careful, you are on the internet. The people you are referring to are just as likely to be ignorant as they are to be better informed than you. . .

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> Bumping this thread because it's the largest outlier in the game atm. FB is so incredibly unfun to fight, and it always takes like 2-3 ppl 2 mins to kill one.

 

Meanwhile, I see Yolosmiths and Weaver being more of a problem than those downed-within-20-seconds-Firebrands.

At least it feels that way on my Symbol-Meditation Core Guardian.

 

[Axl.8924]

> @"alain.1659" said:

> Bring back glamour mesmer back with a good rework and see how this boon spam goes away with a mes + warr team.

> Firebrand is not op. It is ona different level. You are playing a multiplayer game yet firebrand plays a single player.

 

Didn't you guys have rip on the GS, was it? could have sworn you had multiple rips.

 

As for how good mesmer rips are, I honestly don't know.

 

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"alain.1659" said:

> > Bring back glamour mesmer back with a good rework and see how this boon spam goes away with a mes + warr team.

> > Firebrand is not op. It is ona different level. You are playing a multiplayer game yet firebrand plays a single player.

>

> Didn't you guys have rip on the GS, was it? could have sworn you had multiple rips.

>

> As for how good mesmer rips are, I honestly don't know.

>

 

Mind stab remove one boon, that's the only rip on GS. The only reliable boon strip is shattered concentration on mesmer, others are high CD utilities that most builds don't run. But then we're talking about destructible resources/clones that often gets cleaved by symbol guards.

Looking at boon strip across every profession, honestly you need a SB/thief/necro + a mesmer focusing on the FB to actually make boon strip worthwhile. Most of the time boon strip in this game is negligible.

[Axl.8924]

I think then I would like to see boon rip buffs on mesmers and other classes to take the burden of necro.

 

It's not a good idea to have 1 class be the main counter to boons Also you didn't mention Warr. I heard they can do similar to necro damaging enemies with boons.

 

 

 

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> I think then I would like to see boon rip buffs on mesmers and other classes to take the burden of necro.

> It's not a good idea to have 1 class be the main counter to boons Also you didn't mention Warr. I heard they can do similar to necro damaging enemies with boons.

Rather than adding boon rips or increasing the frequency of existing ones, I'd like to see reduction in boon (and condition) application.

The game needs tone down balances, not tone up.

[Axl.8924]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > I think then I would like to see boon rip buffs on mesmers and other classes to take the burden of necro.

> > It's not a good idea to have 1 class be the main counter to boons Also you didn't mention Warr. I heard they can do similar to necro damaging enemies with boons.

> Rather than adding boon rips or increasing the frequency of existing ones, I'd like to see a reduction in boon (and condition) application.

> The game needs tone down balances, not tone up.

 

That's true but necros shouldn't be the only ones controlling boons, its unhealthy for the class and put too much burden, plus other classes too have boon rips and it adds control much needed. I think its also very unhealthy for the game overall.

 

My worry is I don't want to see what happened to scourge ever happen again where it is literally prevented from a further balance due to it being oppressive due to boon corrupt.

 

 

 

[Math.5123]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:

> > Also, guard has plenty of defensive skills outside of aegis, many of which are available to and used by the meta mantra bunker or symbolbrand builds.

>

> Name them?

>

> The only other meaningful ones are Mantra of Truth (against power), which is also on your hit-list for removal, CoP (against condi) and Renewed Focus, which is on 90s CD (symbolbrand doesn't take meditation CD reduction).

>

> Now compare that to, I dunno, every other class.

>

> FB gets 1 Aegis every 5 seconds. So mitigate 1 hit every 5 seconds. Thief *easily* mitigates more that 1 per 5 seconds with evades. SpB *easily* mitigates more than 1 per 5 seconds with its array of defensive tools. Mirage *easily* mitigates more than 1 per 5 seconds with its array of defensive tools. Just equipping a scepter as a mesmer is already providing almost the same blocks as an entire FB's toolkit. Herald *easily*& mitigates more than 1 per 5 seconds with its evades and staff blocks. I could go on....

>

> If your argument is that all (well, most) PoF classes are OP, you should have made a thread about that. Not one titled "Firebrand is OP". And even if that was all you wanted to focus on, you should have presented the reasons in terms of what roles it is overperforming in. Simply listing out the traits and skills isn't even a bad argument, it just isn't an argument at all. I can go and list out Herald's skills, that doesn't constitute an argument. I would need to comment on how it is over-performing in the Roamer role and is a little too easy to chain evades given how much damage it can also do.

 

Renewed focus is actually 115 sec CD untraited. It got nerfed in the dh era.

 

> @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said:

> Some fun FB facts.

> Aegis:

> Between mantra of solace, shield of judgement, and the f3 passive, FB gets roughly 2 aegis applications every 10 seconds.

>

 

No, they don't. And even if they did, blocking two attacks per 10 seconds wouldn't even be considered middle of the road in terms of damage mitigation these days.

 

> CC:

> Between Axe 2&3, shield 5, and one use of heated rebuke (f1 chpt 3) per cooldown, FB gets roughly 2.5 hard cc every 10 seconds. With the stoic demeanor trait, this also means FB puts out roughly 6 seconds of slow every 10 seconds.

>

Where did you get these values from? Sure, you can spam all 4 hard ccs in a 10 second window. After that they will all be on cooldown though.

> Quickness:

> Assuming the use of stalwart speed and swift scholar, FB gets almost 50% quickness uptime, which for some odd reason has a minor trait which gives 250 healing, 250 toughness, and 250 condi damage while the boon is active.

>

 

You can't run cc on axe and extra quickness at the same time. Choose one build and debate around that.

> Edit: (values are actually 150 healing, toughness, and condi damage. Thank you to the observant people on this forum who quite quickly pointed out my unacceptable stupidity and incompetence)

>

 

I'm glad someone did.

> Additionally, FB can regularly output 6 condis on a target, regardless of being built for condi or power damage.

 

Yes, mantra needs to be nerfed.

> All of this is assuming no use of cd reduction traits, and no use of renewed focus.

 

Without RF reset on tomes, you won't get nearly as much aegis and hard cc as you calculated.

> And then there is passive healing through aegis, symbols, dodge roll.

 

How is that passive healing? Isn't this the very definition of active?

> And also all their active defense skills, and other high impact boons

 

Active high defense skills? Which ones? I guess renewed focus?

> And their amazing condi clear/conversion.

 

Zeal/sagebrand both have very limited cleanses. They don't run absolute resolution or smiters boon, all their cleanse either comes from 35 second CD CoP or f2 tome which has 55s CD.

> And also most of their skills are large aoe.

 

Which needs nerf, that I agree with.

>

> ??????

>

>

>

>

Yes, Firebrand is overloaded and it needs nerf. But discuss actual values instead of taking information from no-where. It just makes you look dumb.

 

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> I think then I would like to see boon rip buffs on mesmers and other classes to take the burden of necro.

>

> It's not a good idea to have 1 class be the main counter to boons Also you didn't mention Warr. I heard they can do similar to necro damaging enemies with boons.

>

Apologies for my abbreviations, I did mention spell breaker, rather than soulbeast in my mention of SB (keep in mind soulbeast is probably 2nd/3rd in line for heavy boon generations/reliance). Unfortunately despite spellbreaker advertise as primarily PvP focus against boon heavy foes, most of the strip traits contest against survival ones :tired_face: .

 

Personally I felt like Pure Strike trait needs to make full counter strip 1 boon, then along with dispelling force + enchantment collapse (if anyone dare prefer it over MT) can make alternative spellbreaker builds much stronger counter to boon heavy fights. All the while contesting against survival/damage major trait means spellbreaker traiting for that will need more peeling from teammates.

[Burnfall.9573]

Everyone is Op

 


 

 

[Virdo.1540]

its doing decent in the current meta, but its not OP

[alain.1659]

Firebrand broke the game in ways that no one can ever fix it. Not because it is op, but because as an elite it is one of the best designed concepts ever. How can any other support compete with it? Graphically it is beautiful. Lorewise it is meaningful. It has offense defense and utility options with actually working utility skills. Only once before I felt the same joy for a concept (but that lasted like 2 mins) but unlike firebrand druids CA turned out to be a disappointment altogether.

 

So yes I want firebrand to be nerfed but I would hate to see it getting gutted down as it is one of the best designed concepts ever. (And we wanted books as kits for so long so it is kind of a dream comes true).

[Virdo.1540]

> @"alain.1659" said:

> Firebrand broke the game in ways that no one can ever fix it. Not because it is op, but because as an elite it is one of the best designed concepts ever. How can any other support compete with it? Graphically it is beautiful. Lorewise it is meaningful. It has offense defense and utility options with actually working utility skills. Only once before I felt the same joy for a concept (but that lasted like 2 mins) but unlike firebrand druids CA turned out to be a disappointment altogether.

>

> So yes I want firebrand to be nerfed but I would hate to see it getting gutted down as it is one of the best designed concepts ever. (And we wanted books as kits for so long so it is kind of a dream comes true).

 

we dont need firebrand to get worse, only because " it is one of the best designed concepts ever".

 

We need other classes that can be as good as it, and more counters against such

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"alain.1659" said:

> Firebrand broke the game in ways that no one can ever fix it. Not because it is op, but because as an elite it is one of the best designed concepts ever. How can any other support compete with it? Graphically it is beautiful. Lorewise it is meaningful. It has offense defense and utility options with actually working utility skills. Only once before I felt the same joy for a concept (but that lasted like 2 mins) but unlike firebrand druids CA turned out to be a disappointment altogether.

>

> So yes I want firebrand to be nerfed but I would hate to see it getting gutted down as it is one of the best designed concepts ever. (And we wanted books as kits for so long so it is kind of a dream comes true).

 

Give class everything and suddenly its good, what a suprise.

As a support, firebrand provides EVERYTHING.

Weakness

Blind

Aegis

Prot

Hard CC

Heals

Removes CC

Gives Stab

Peels with CC

Alot of cover condi ( makes cleansing harder )

Removes Condi

Yes if you make a spec with everything it will work awesome, its not hard to make overtunes pice of shit and make it fit the lore.

Whats actually hard and impresive is making it fir the lore, making it fit the feel of playing AND making it balanced.

In my eyes FB failed. Same way Chrono failed.

 

[Crozame.4098]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > I really wish there is some sort of basic understanding test so people do not post kitten feedback on the forums.

> But then you wouldnt have so many mesmer threads and such . Where is the fun? :confused:

 

Ah, defending mesmers again~

[Sovari.7246]

They need to lower the recharge of sigil of annulment that would gelp a bit against boon spammers like fb

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Sovari.7246" said:

> They need to lower the recharge of sigil of annulment that would gelp a bit against boon spammers like fb

 

There are times where I ran 2x annul + arcane thievery with mimic, doesnt matter. FB generates too much to care.

[Gamble.4580]

Fb is easy to kill on a + unlike ele war and even a good player on rev. So it’s not as op for fishing.Next it has a Rock Paper Scissors on 1v1s, so I view that as balanced there.

Next is team focused fights, it’s good but I think reaper, eng, core grd, rev are more impactful there, so although it can have some impactful combos I think for the fight all around the above would be most impactful for the win.So in my eyes it’s not op there.

So the op part must come from the fact that it can do all the roles the best out of all other. From classes such as Eng, staff ele, Dh, core nec. and that offers map control that swings games to a win as it can adapt to the roles needed to sway map.So if that’s the case, its the new Holo. And thats why it was its a S class as top players played it because it’s power won ranked games and could carry noobs there for Securing their rating. and because good players played it it become even More op. haveing games with a team mate rping that role makes games much more interesting!! that’s the games we was 200 ahead and by timer end up looseing.

And this is where thf can shine. And why thf can be S ranking. A thf who plays that role and that’s the play every role for map control they will become a S ranking thf like Sin, Vallun And so on and all the other thfs who don’t play that role and just focus on one or two of theM roles will never be.

The noobs cry on forums for the nurfs for classes that can play that role as they notice them when vs but never notice that’s why they won that game because that player carries for them securing their own rateing.

 

But if they win and it’s touched please only touch fb, and that touch be to axe so it don’t nurf other fb roles, as well as not being a nurf that effects dh and core grd.

As for what nurf to axe u could do, I could not tell u.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Gamble.4580" said:

> Fb is easy to kill on a + unlike ele war and even a good player on rev. So it’s not as op for fishing.Next it has a Rock Paper Scissors on 1v1s, so I view that as balanced there.

> Next is team focused fights, it’s good but I think reaper, eng, core grd, rev are more impactful there, so although it can have some impactful combos I think for the fight all around the above would be most impactful for the win.So in my eyes it’s not op there.

> So the op part must come from the fact that it can do all the roles the best out of all other. From classes such as Eng, staff ele, Dh, core nec. and that offers map control that swings games to a win as it can adapt to the roles needed to sway map.So if that’s the case, its the new Holo. And thats why it was its a S class as top players played it because it’s power won ranked games and could carry noobs there for Securing their rating. and because good players played it it become even More op. haveing games with a team mate rping that role makes games much more interesting!! that’s the games we was 200 ahead and by timer end up looseing.

> And this is where thf can shine. And why thf can be S ranking. A thf who plays that role and that’s the play every role for map control they will become a S ranking thf like Sin, Vallun And so on and all the other thfs who don’t play that role and just focus on one or two of theM roles will never be.

> The noobs cry on forums for the nurfs for classes that can play that role as they notice them when vs but never notice that’s why they won that game because that player carries for them securing their own rateing.

>

> But if they win and it’s touched please only touch fb, and that touch be to axe so it don’t nurf other fb roles, as well as not being a nurf that effects dh and core grd.

> As for what nurf to axe u could do, I could not tell u.

 

In what world is FB easy to kill, lol