Holosmith has too little stability

[Halikus.1406]

@"Axl.8924"

He's talking about reaper, so the most played build out there only got 2 sources.

Well of power is a single stack on activation, not even worth mentioning. Trail of anguish is scourge only not reaper, Infusing terror I mentioned in there with chilled to the bone and Lich form.... who even bother taking that as reaper? lol

[Axl.8924]

> @"Hederrain.9207" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > You got multiple sources too mass momentum and kinetic stabilizers in scrapper

> > Crystal configuration eclipse from holosmith.

> > From core: defense field rumble and toss elixir b, so yes you do have more sources than stab than necros.

> >

> > If reaper then we can take 3 maybe total but the shouts have a noticeable CD for use and foot in the grave is a must-have for SPVP and Pve.

>

> yea its just when u put it like that is sounds like we are still swimming in stab (we can do that but exchange block for stab) without b we got holo 3, which must land on ppl meanwhile they are dodging it like its the plague xD other than that we got 1.5 sec from elixir u and thats it :) thats why imo reaper stab is more reliable.

>

> its not a question if i think the changes were bad, i welcome them since now i actaully need to kite to be succesful on holo.

>

> i just want ppl to not overbloat the spec with lists of skills that no holo is actually running at the same time and can be viable with

>

>

>

 

Just like fewer go for golem on necro for the stab from the charge ability, and instead, we go for wurm or spectral walk as an example in a similar case to engi.

 

@Axl.8924

He's talking about reaper, so the most played build out there only got 2 sources.

Well of power is a single stack on activation, not even worth mentioning. Trail of anguish is scourge only not reaper, Infusing terror I mentioned in there with chilled to the bone and Lich form.... who even bother taking that as reaper? lol

 

Well chilled is not my top top choice, but it at least has some source of stab, and foot in the grave.

[wasss.1208]

After the nerfs, playing agains holosmith is much easier. People can use hard CCs to peel, because of the lower stability and block uptime.

 

I can understand that the nerf is annoying, since:

- A pair of core skill/trait got nerfed, despite the engi subforum filled with holo only nerf suggestions, which wouldn't hurt the underperforming parts of the profession.

- A lot of other overperforming specs didn't get any meaningful changes, because they have a higher skill floor. (Holo was already considered a "budget rev" before the patch to begin with.)

- This leaves holo out of the highest tier of the competitive play.

 

The last point might be irrelevant, since way too many specs could claim the same. I would recommend treating the time until The Balance patch, as a meaningless preseason. If what is said is true, nothing will be untouched by it.

 

> @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > Try using Toss Elixir B with all the projectile destruction and reflects that fly around.

> I'm pretty sure they fixed this with all toss skills at the beginning of the month.

>

 

They didn't fix anything. Toss skills are projectiles, they are meant to be absborbed by projectile hate. Toss R got upgrated to be unblockable. There used to be a lot of suggestions on the engi forum to change these skills to "Break Elixir" or "Smash Elixir", and make them PBAoE.

 

> @"Halikus.1406" said:

> Reliable Protection generation - Check

 

Not on the Tools build, which the original poster talks about, and plays. Which got nerfed in the last patch.

[JETWING.2759]

> @"Halikus.1406" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> You're not serious are you? The only defense engi doesn't have is a god kitten teleport, which is actually the ONLY one necro has, while you got everything else....

>

> Stealth - Check

> Invul - Check

> Block - Check (Holo)

> Mobility - Check

> Reliable Protection generation - Check

> Multiple sources of Stability - Check

>

> And here you are complaining that you don't have a port?

>

> All I can say to you is L2P... I did every time they changed or nerfed rev and necro, you don't see me here on forums creating threads to cry about it when I have every right to do it given the amount of nerf hammers my classes get.

>

> So again: L2P <-----

 

Allow me add few points, plz.

Lets take a single spec to compare the Holo state:

 

* Stealth - Ranger has more (LB#3, 30% uptime).

* Invul - Ranger has more and better that allows skill use (2x Signet of Stone, Defy Pain, Unflinching Fortitude).

* Block - Ranger Better with lesser CD and folowed by evasion on skill use(GS#4).

* Mobility - Ranger has more and better, also grants Quickness, Fury and remove conditions (LB#3, GS#3, Quickening Zephyr).

* Protection Generation - Ranger more and better, protection heals and reduce incomming condition damage (Companions Defense).

* Multiple Source of Stability - Ranger has better, with several extra beneficts (Dolyak Stance, Strength of the Pack).

* Evade on skill - Not Check!!! But Ranger has 3 on the same weapon (GS#1, GS#3 and GS#4).

 

Detail... All this on the same build.

 

Then... SB >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Holo.

 

So not balanced <-------------------<<<

[Halikus.1406]

> @"JETWING.2759" said:

> Allow me add few points, plz.

 

Yeah dude, we all know ranger is busted atm but we're talking about holo here. So lets not derail the thread okay?

[Curennos.9307]

Listing 'defense - check' utterly fails to encompass the benefits and limitations of engineer/holosmith's defense. It's like saying reaper has two health bars and thus has amazing defense, better than any other class (can you hear the necro mains screaming bloody murder in the background when I said that? xD), and that's the only defense they have. It isn't and that's a totally garbage explanation for any necro setup. Necro has been repeatedly screwed over by such half assed explanations and understanding. Let's try to avoid doing the same to engineer/holo.

 

 

[XECOR.2814]

*Laughs in necro since release.

 

Now you need to learn to kite like necros. So sad.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> *Laughs in necro since release.

>

> Now you need to learn to kite like necros. So sad.

 

"My class has been repeatedly screwed over and has been stuck with a horrendous design that hasn't kept up with the game's updates so every other class should suffer the same." is not the own you think it is.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > *Laughs in necro since release.

> >

> > Now you need to learn to kite like necros. So sad.

>

> "My class has been repeatedly screwed over and has been stuck with a horrendous design that hasn't kept up with the game's updates so every other class should suffer the same." is not the own you think it is.

 

Necro is not as bad as people make it out to be, if in this big balance patch they go around nerfing stealth/evade/blocks/boons/healing all around, and dont do anything to necro. The meta will be the biggest miserable piece of kitten immaginable.

Necro is a pile of stats, as long as there are tools to outplay them its fine, remove the tools and its just unwinnable by default.

We will see what happens in the end.

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > > *Laughs in necro since release.

> > >

> > > Now you need to learn to kite like necros. So sad.

> >

> > "My class has been repeatedly screwed over and has been stuck with a horrendous design that hasn't kept up with the game's updates so every other class should suffer the same." is not the own you think it is.

>

> Necro is not as bad as people make it out to be, if in this big balance patch they go around nerfing stealth/evade/blocks/boons/healing all around, and dont do anything to necro. The meta will be the biggest miserable piece of kitten immaginable.

> Necro is a pile of stats, as long as there are tools to outplay them its fine, remove the tools and its just unwinnable by default.

> We will see what happens in the end.

 

There is no way they wont nerf necro when they are nerfing everything because the traits on necro are really strong, maybe more than other classes but the class is utter dogshit because anet refuse to give it any kitten mobility. The problems with necro will always remain no matter how much you buff or nerf everything as mobility is the most op defense+offense combined in one, specially as you get more skilled the more ways you can find to outplay opponents in bad situations using it. It adds depth to gameplay but without it, necro will always be a sand bag even if it has 1 million hp and damage.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Halikus.1406" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > You literally just made my previous point stand:

> You're not serious are you? The only defense engi doesn't have is a god kitten teleport, which is actually the ONLY one necro has, while you got everything else....

>

> Stealth - Check

> Invul - Check

> Block - Check (Holo)

> Mobility - Check

> Reliable Protection generation - Check

> Multiple sources of Stability - Check

 

My apologies, I seem to forget that engineer has 5 trait lines and 7 utility skills. :trollface:

 

What you're describing is at minimum two separate builds, closer to three. ([Prot holo](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Protection_Holo), [gadget holo](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Gadget_Holo), [some elixir holo](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Core_Grenadier))

 

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"Halikus.1406" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > You literally just made my previous point stand:

> > You're not serious are you? The only defense engi doesn't have is a god kitten teleport, which is actually the ONLY one necro has, while you got everything else....

> >

> > Stealth - Check

> > Invul - Check

> > Block - Check (Holo)

> > Mobility - Check

> > Reliable Protection generation - Check

> > Multiple sources of Stability - Check

> >

> > And here you are complaining that you don't have a port?

> >

> > All I can say to you is L2P... I did every time they changed or nerfed rev and necro, you don't see me here on forums creating threads to cry about it when I have every right to do it given the amount of nerf hammers my classes get.

> >

> > So again: L2P <-----

>

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stability

>

> Well of power

> trail of anguish

> Infusing terror

> Charge lich form and chilled to the bone.

>

> > @"Hederrain.9207" said:

> > > @"Halikus.1406" said:

> > > You're not serious are you? The only defense engi doesn't have is a god kitten teleport, which is actually the ONLY one necro has, while you got everything else....

> > >

> > > Stealth - Check

> > > Invul - Check

> > > Block - Check (Holo) dunno how many ppl run this after last patch. imho its useless now that stab got cut. 3rd utility with stab acces or stunbreak is better

> > > Mobility - Check

> > > Reliable Protection generation - ~~Check~~ u need to roll protection holo for that, which means u lose stealth and invuln, not to mention damage.

> > > Multiple sources of Stability - Check, funny thing is that reaper got more reliable acces to stab now than holo has (if we discount toss elixir b, and if we use elixir b we dont have a block)

> >

> > just tidying up in your comment since all thats listed there is not possible in 1 build. ure listing 2 builds defences

> >

> >

> >

>

> You got multiple sources too mass momentum and kinetic stabilizers in scrapper

> Crystal configuration eclipse from holosmith.

> From core: defense field rumble and toss elixir b, so yes you do have more sources than stab than necros.

>

> If reaper then we can take 3 maybe total but the shouts have a noticeable CD for use and foot in the grave is a must-have for SPVP and Pve.

>

>

>

 

* Defense field is scrapper. Scrapper has other tools to deal with CC's and stunlocks -- namely, hammer skills and certain gyros. Hammer has built-in blocks and evades, bulwark gyro can stabilize your health when CC'ed.

* Rumble is a 1-second stability + stunbreak. In other words, it's there solely to prevent a follow-up CC after stunbreak.

* Toss Elixir B is the one source of stability besides CC: Eclipse that is more than a second. It's 4s of stability, has to deal with projectile hate, and has a casting time.

 

> @"wasss.1208" said:

> After the nerfs, playing agains holosmith is much easier. People can use hard CCs to peel, because of the lower stability and block uptime.

>

> I can understand that the nerf is annoying, since:

> - A pair of core skill/trait got nerfed, despite the engi subforum filled with holo only nerf suggestions, which wouldn't hurt the underperforming parts of the profession.

> - A lot of other overperforming specs didn't get any meaningful changes, because they have a higher skill floor. (Holo was already considered a "budget rev" before the patch to begin with.)

> - This leaves holo out of the highest tier of the competitive play.

 

To add on to your last point -- Holo was the bandaid keeping the engineer class afloat in competitive play. This is the crux of the problem -- engineer as a whole needs a serious redesign because it's aged so poorly. Scrapper's basically a joke, and core engineer is just bad.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

yeah engis need an actual profession mechanic. no, shooting out silly things from your toolbelt is not a mechanic. its just silly. awesome, but ultimately useless.

[Stallic.2397]

This just shows you how many people got screwed over by Holo's insane OP build.

 

It's like watching Endgame all over again. No one feels sry for Thanos.

[Falan.1839]

Just that the insane OP build actually stopped being insane OP over a year ago, but people are apparently either still stuck in 2017 or in Gold League where node is life and facetanking meta.

 

Yesterday mAT (EU) saw no holos in the semifinal. In the final one player swapped from Reaper to Holo, presumably to use the reveal proc against Core Mes (Oneshot PU), but it didn't work out well and he got bombed several times in focus. The defining classes rn are Ele (as weaver exclusively), thief, and Rev (mostly Herald). Guard (FB), Mes and War aren't as dominant, but still being used regularly. Necro and Ranger are in a similar state as Engi in competitive play. So that means 3 classes basically don't figure in meta comps atm, even if a few loyalists are holding on to them.