Megametzler.5729 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > Rofl you rly try to talk gold to kitten here... When used first the cd is already running, means when used right after another you can use the next one 5 secs after the first, then after 30 secs (because 10 secs cds from the main recharge are already gone) you can use another one (if you use it that way), then you have the first time 40 secs cd on the next use. That is something completely different and way better than what you try to make it (40secs cd for one normal dodge). The only thing i am not sure of is, if it is called an ammo skill or not, because it has no visible recharge line like Mantras have for each charge but it is far away from being only one dodge with 40 secs cd. And if you then just time them when you get hard-cced these cds outrun every normal builds cc cooldowns. Means even without nearly perma stabi a Weaver barely can be lock downed. > > > > > > > > Twist of Fate has not been changed at all, ever. How has it become an issue now? > > > > > > > > It hasn't. > > > > > > > > Traiting fire should reduce the sustain on weaver significantly, more than it does now. And the burning is too bursty. Fire auras cleansing and the burning application should be changed to damage over time (look at the Glyph and double attuned Primordial Stance). I wouldn't even touch Invigorating Strikes, but that might become necessary. That's fine tuning though. > > > > > > > > The overall CDs on the weapon evades can be increased too or the durations decresed when all other builds get nerfs too. Otherwise you push water weavers and Lightning Rod eles out of the game (depending on which weapon skills you nerf), while the issue is with fire weaver only. Heck, you can reduce the evade uptime on ToF too, if you need to, if you nerf damage elsewhere or add some other sustain to weaver. > > > > > > > > > > Who said it just became an issue? In my opinion it always was an issue, no matter if used or not. It is an ammo btw i just didn't remember it had the same recharge line running on the edge of the tooltip. Just checked it ingame. > > > > > > I think the mechanic itself is not healthy in general but after rethinking (i forgot about Roll for Initiative what i never rly considered an issue and i just asked me why) i think if we have single skills with high cd on squishy (melee) classes it is clearly less of an issue, less enough to not delete it maybe. Still on Weaver with an ammo skill on a class with nearly perma stabi and such facetank ability it is not healthy just as it isn't on Mesmers EM trait because of the low cd (still more than 7secs considering the Mesmer cannot use dodges only for stunbreaks). Same for Rev with that overall insane amount of dodges/ stunbreaks in general. And before we remove soemthing else on these builds, i would go for this one first because as said, i still think the mechanic is not healthy in general. For Weaver, Rev and Mesmer its the same: The utility and the trait rewarding facetanking the cc too much and neutralize lock down mechanic way too hard and too often considering the whole spec design and cds. On Weaver even more because it adds even more dodges in addition to normal dodges and low cd weapon dodge on a facetank spec with high resustain ability and nearly perma stabi. > > > > I am all with you if you wanted to reduce stunbreaks along with stuns in the game. I also agree ele has a very specific defense - evades. Other classes have blocks, stealth, blinds, offering more counterplay (dodges still have some, but few indeed. Ground stun fields and stuff, shocking aura). > > > > But if you nerf it now, you will hurt many other weaver specs as well. That is why changes should focus on the problematic builds, not skills every other specs use too. > > > > But let's have a more specific look at it: What exactly would you like to see ToF change into? Just getting rid of the evade, together with a CD reduction? Or block instead of evade? > > > > (I still think decreasing the CD of Primordial Stance was completely random and noone ever asked for this. Anet could revert this, since you mention lots of stability. But this is not the core question here I think?) > > Either remove the stunbreak or the dodge, i don't even mind which one, but because Weaver has nearly perma stabi anyway keeping the dodge with the current animation Ele mains would prefer i guess. Or you make it a stunbreak with a combofinisher that has the current dodge (the whirling around) animation, to compensate for the defense loss from less dodges (that is what i would prefer on the first view). It 100% needs the stunbreak! It is weaver's only one. I also wouldn't mind the animation tbh... instead of the evade one or two seconds of aegis? (This would be a minor nerf, but fine in my opinion. Won't come though, because ele is not allowed to have access to impactful boons though. :lol:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > Rofl you rly try to talk gold to kitten here... When used first the cd is already running, means when used right after another you can use the next one 5 secs after the first, then after 30 secs (because 10 secs cds from the main recharge are already gone) you can use another one (if you use it that way), then you have the first time 40 secs cd on the next use. That is something completely different and way better than what you try to make it (40secs cd for one normal dodge). The only thing i am not sure of is, if it is called an ammo skill or not, because it has no visible recharge line like Mantras have for each charge but it is far away from being only one dodge with 40 secs cd. And if you then just time them when you get hard-cced these cds outrun every normal builds cc cooldowns. Means even without nearly perma stabi a Weaver barely can be lock downed. > > > > > > > > > > Twist of Fate has not been changed at all, ever. How has it become an issue now? > > > > > > > > > > It hasn't. > > > > > > > > > > Traiting fire should reduce the sustain on weaver significantly, more than it does now. And the burning is too bursty. Fire auras cleansing and the burning application should be changed to damage over time (look at the Glyph and double attuned Primordial Stance). I wouldn't even touch Invigorating Strikes, but that might become necessary. That's fine tuning though. > > > > > > > > > > The overall CDs on the weapon evades can be increased too or the durations decresed when all other builds get nerfs too. Otherwise you push water weavers and Lightning Rod eles out of the game (depending on which weapon skills you nerf), while the issue is with fire weaver only. Heck, you can reduce the evade uptime on ToF too, if you need to, if you nerf damage elsewhere or add some other sustain to weaver. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who said it just became an issue? In my opinion it always was an issue, no matter if used or not. It is an ammo btw i just didn't remember it had the same recharge line running on the edge of the tooltip. Just checked it ingame. > > > > > > > > I think the mechanic itself is not healthy in general but after rethinking (i forgot about Roll for Initiative what i never rly considered an issue and i just asked me why) i think if we have single skills with high cd on squishy (melee) classes it is clearly less of an issue, less enough to not delete it maybe. Still on Weaver with an ammo skill on a class with nearly perma stabi and such facetank ability it is not healthy just as it isn't on Mesmers EM trait because of the low cd (still more than 7secs considering the Mesmer cannot use dodges only for stunbreaks). Same for Rev with that overall insane amount of dodges/ stunbreaks in general. And before we remove soemthing else on these builds, i would go for this one first because as said, i still think the mechanic is not healthy in general. For Weaver, Rev and Mesmer its the same: The utility and the trait rewarding facetanking the cc too much and neutralize lock down mechanic way too hard and too often considering the whole spec design and cds. On Weaver even more because it adds even more dodges in addition to normal dodges and low cd weapon dodge on a facetank spec with high resustain ability and nearly perma stabi. > > > > > > I am all with you if you wanted to reduce stunbreaks along with stuns in the game. I also agree ele has a very specific defense - evades. Other classes have blocks, stealth, blinds, offering more counterplay (dodges still have some, but few indeed. Ground stun fields and stuff, shocking aura). > > > > > > But if you nerf it now, you will hurt many other weaver specs as well. That is why changes should focus on the problematic builds, not skills every other specs use too. > > > > > > But let's have a more specific look at it: What exactly would you like to see ToF change into? Just getting rid of the evade, together with a CD reduction? Or block instead of evade? > > > > > > (I still think decreasing the CD of Primordial Stance was completely random and noone ever asked for this. Anet could revert this, since you mention lots of stability. But this is not the core question here I think?) > > > > Either remove the stunbreak or the dodge, i don't even mind which one, but because Weaver has nearly perma stabi anyway keeping the dodge with the current animation Ele mains would prefer i guess. Or you make it a stunbreak with a combofinisher that has the current dodge (the whirling around) animation, to compensate for the defense loss from less dodges (that is what i would prefer on the first view). > > It 100% needs the stunbreak! It is weaver's only one. I also wouldn't mind the animation tbh... instead of the evade one or two seconds of aegis? (This would be a minor nerf, but fine in my opinion. Won't come though, because ele is not allowed to have access to impactful boons though. :lol:) The animation needs to have a reason because it locks the Weaver into it, or just delete the whirling animation when we make it a stunbreak without dodge. Such a long animation for only a combofinisher that can be interrupted wouldn't make sense. Maybe make the animation just shorter (1,4 secs or 1/2) add the combofinisher and some vulnerabilty stacks? I don't rly like the Aegis idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rofl you rly try to talk gold to kitten here... When used first the cd is already running, means when used right after another you can use the next one 5 secs after the first, then after 30 secs (because 10 secs cds from the main recharge are already gone) you can use another one (if you use it that way), then you have the first time 40 secs cd on the next use. That is something completely different and way better than what you try to make it (40secs cd for one normal dodge). The only thing i am not sure of is, if it is called an ammo skill or not, because it has no visible recharge line like Mantras have for each charge but it is far away from being only one dodge with 40 secs cd. And if you then just time them when you get hard-cced these cds outrun every normal builds cc cooldowns. Means even without nearly perma stabi a Weaver barely can be lock downed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Twist of Fate has not been changed at all, ever. How has it become an issue now? > > > > > > > > > > > > It hasn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > Traiting fire should reduce the sustain on weaver significantly, more than it does now. And the burning is too bursty. Fire auras cleansing and the burning application should be changed to damage over time (look at the Glyph and double attuned Primordial Stance). I wouldn't even touch Invigorating Strikes, but that might become necessary. That's fine tuning though. > > > > > > > > > > > > The overall CDs on the weapon evades can be increased too or the durations decresed when all other builds get nerfs too. Otherwise you push water weavers and Lightning Rod eles out of the game (depending on which weapon skills you nerf), while the issue is with fire weaver only. Heck, you can reduce the evade uptime on ToF too, if you need to, if you nerf damage elsewhere or add some other sustain to weaver. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who said it just became an issue? In my opinion it always was an issue, no matter if used or not. It is an ammo btw i just didn't remember it had the same recharge line running on the edge of the tooltip. Just checked it ingame. > > > > > > > > > > I think the mechanic itself is not healthy in general but after rethinking (i forgot about Roll for Initiative what i never rly considered an issue and i just asked me why) i think if we have single skills with high cd on squishy (melee) classes it is clearly less of an issue, less enough to not delete it maybe. Still on Weaver with an ammo skill on a class with nearly perma stabi and such facetank ability it is not healthy just as it isn't on Mesmers EM trait because of the low cd (still more than 7secs considering the Mesmer cannot use dodges only for stunbreaks). Same for Rev with that overall insane amount of dodges/ stunbreaks in general. And before we remove soemthing else on these builds, i would go for this one first because as said, i still think the mechanic is not healthy in general. For Weaver, Rev and Mesmer its the same: The utility and the trait rewarding facetanking the cc too much and neutralize lock down mechanic way too hard and too often considering the whole spec design and cds. On Weaver even more because it adds even more dodges in addition to normal dodges and low cd weapon dodge on a facetank spec with high resustain ability and nearly perma stabi. > > > > > > > > I am all with you if you wanted to reduce stunbreaks along with stuns in the game. I also agree ele has a very specific defense - evades. Other classes have blocks, stealth, blinds, offering more counterplay (dodges still have some, but few indeed. Ground stun fields and stuff, shocking aura). > > > > > > > > But if you nerf it now, you will hurt many other weaver specs as well. That is why changes should focus on the problematic builds, not skills every other specs use too. > > > > > > > > But let's have a more specific look at it: What exactly would you like to see ToF change into? Just getting rid of the evade, together with a CD reduction? Or block instead of evade? > > > > > > > > (I still think decreasing the CD of Primordial Stance was completely random and noone ever asked for this. Anet could revert this, since you mention lots of stability. But this is not the core question here I think?) > > > > > > Either remove the stunbreak or the dodge, i don't even mind which one, but because Weaver has nearly perma stabi anyway keeping the dodge with the current animation Ele mains would prefer i guess. Or you make it a stunbreak with a combofinisher that has the current dodge (the whirling around) animation, to compensate for the defense loss from less dodges (that is what i would prefer on the first view). > > > > It 100% needs the stunbreak! It is weaver's only one. I also wouldn't mind the animation tbh... instead of the evade one or two seconds of aegis? (This would be a minor nerf, but fine in my opinion. Won't come though, because ele is not allowed to have access to impactful boons though. :lol:) > > The animation needs to have a reason because it locks the Weaver into it, or just delete the whirling animation when we make it a stunbreak without dodge. Such a long animation for only a combofinisher that can be interrupted wouldn't make sense. Maybe make the animation just shorter (1,4 secs or 1/2) add the combofinisher and some vulnerabilty stacks? I don't rly like the Aegis idea. Yaah, delete the animation. I don't care. A combofinisher would be random - combos in general have very limited use. Only water and smoke fields are really relevant - who would wait with a burst when the enemy has Frost aura up? Exactly. No one cares. And whirl finishers are almost as bad as projectiles... You sound like you want to tie some offense to it? Like if you actually break a stun, deliver vulnerability stacks to punish or what is the idea behind this? Comparing it with Bandid's defense here (even though this is a stunbreak, block and then counterattack). Could add some nice interactivity indeed, as long as it is something significant. €: And if you delete the evade, reduce the CD according to whatever else you tie to it. Just deleting the evade would require it to have a CD of 30s or less. Which could increase the "perma" stability problem, but improve the "perma" evade situation. Yes, I'd like something like a counterattack after a stunbreak actually to avoid the CD/stab issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"Megametzler.5729" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > (...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rofl you rly try to talk gold to kitten here... When used first the cd is already running, means when used right after another you can use the next one 5 secs after the first, then after 30 secs (because 10 secs cds from the main recharge are already gone) you can use another one (if you use it that way), then you have the first time 40 secs cd on the next use. That is something completely different and way better than what you try to make it (40secs cd for one normal dodge). The only thing i am not sure of is, if it is called an ammo skill or not, because it has no visible recharge line like Mantras have for each charge but it is far away from being only one dodge with 40 secs cd. And if you then just time them when you get hard-cced these cds outrun every normal builds cc cooldowns. Means even without nearly perma stabi a Weaver barely can be lock downed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Twist of Fate has not been changed at all, ever. How has it become an issue now? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It hasn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Traiting fire should reduce the sustain on weaver significantly, more than it does now. And the burning is too bursty. Fire auras cleansing and the burning application should be changed to damage over time (look at the Glyph and double attuned Primordial Stance). I wouldn't even touch Invigorating Strikes, but that might become necessary. That's fine tuning though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The overall CDs on the weapon evades can be increased too or the durations decresed when all other builds get nerfs too. Otherwise you push water weavers and Lightning Rod eles out of the game (depending on which weapon skills you nerf), while the issue is with fire weaver only. Heck, you can reduce the evade uptime on ToF too, if you need to, if you nerf damage elsewhere or add some other sustain to weaver. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who said it just became an issue? In my opinion it always was an issue, no matter if used or not. It is an ammo btw i just didn't remember it had the same recharge line running on the edge of the tooltip. Just checked it ingame. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the mechanic itself is not healthy in general but after rethinking (i forgot about Roll for Initiative what i never rly considered an issue and i just asked me why) i think if we have single skills with high cd on squishy (melee) classes it is clearly less of an issue, less enough to not delete it maybe. Still on Weaver with an ammo skill on a class with nearly perma stabi and such facetank ability it is not healthy just as it isn't on Mesmers EM trait because of the low cd (still more than 7secs considering the Mesmer cannot use dodges only for stunbreaks). Same for Rev with that overall insane amount of dodges/ stunbreaks in general. And before we remove soemthing else on these builds, i would go for this one first because as said, i still think the mechanic is not healthy in general. For Weaver, Rev and Mesmer its the same: The utility and the trait rewarding facetanking the cc too much and neutralize lock down mechanic way too hard and too often considering the whole spec design and cds. On Weaver even more because it adds even more dodges in addition to normal dodges and low cd weapon dodge on a facetank spec with high resustain ability and nearly perma stabi. > > > > > > > > > > I am all with you if you wanted to reduce stunbreaks along with stuns in the game. I also agree ele has a very specific defense - evades. Other classes have blocks, stealth, blinds, offering more counterplay (dodges still have some, but few indeed. Ground stun fields and stuff, shocking aura). > > > > > > > > > > But if you nerf it now, you will hurt many other weaver specs as well. That is why changes should focus on the problematic builds, not skills every other specs use too. > > > > > > > > > > But let's have a more specific look at it: What exactly would you like to see ToF change into? Just getting rid of the evade, together with a CD reduction? Or block instead of evade? > > > > > > > > > > (I still think decreasing the CD of Primordial Stance was completely random and noone ever asked for this. Anet could revert this, since you mention lots of stability. But this is not the core question here I think?) > > > > > > > > Either remove the stunbreak or the dodge, i don't even mind which one, but because Weaver has nearly perma stabi anyway keeping the dodge with the current animation Ele mains would prefer i guess. Or you make it a stunbreak with a combofinisher that has the current dodge (the whirling around) animation, to compensate for the defense loss from less dodges (that is what i would prefer on the first view). > > > > > > It 100% needs the stunbreak! It is weaver's only one. I also wouldn't mind the animation tbh... instead of the evade one or two seconds of aegis? (This would be a minor nerf, but fine in my opinion. Won't come though, because ele is not allowed to have access to impactful boons though. :lol:) > > > > The animation needs to have a reason because it locks the Weaver into it, or just delete the whirling animation when we make it a stunbreak without dodge. Such a long animation for only a combofinisher that can be interrupted wouldn't make sense. Maybe make the animation just shorter (1,4 secs or 1/2) add the combofinisher and some vulnerabilty stacks? I don't rly like the Aegis idea. > > Yaah, delete the animation. I don't care. > > A combofinisher would be random - combos in general have very limited use. Only water and smoke fields are really relevant - who would wait with a burst when the enemy has Frost aura up? Exactly. No one cares. And whirl finishers are almost as bad as projectiles... > > You sound like you want to tie some offense to it? Like if you actually break a stun, deliver vulnerability stacks to punish or what is the idea behind this? Comparing it with Bandid's defense here (even though this is a stunbreak, block and then counterattack). Could add some nice interactivity indeed, as long as it is something significant. > > €: And if you delete the evade, reduce the CD according to whatever else you tie to it. Just deleting the evade would require it to have a CD of 30s or less. Which could increase the "perma" stability problem, but improve the "perma" evade situation. > > Yes, I'd like something like a counterattack after a stunbreak actually to avoid the CD/stab issue... Yes i don't like to see this ammo stunbreak to have lower cd tbh that is why i search for compensation of the missing dodges that are not too strong but still relevant to make it a nerf but not a destruction of the skill. Thats why i thought about vulnerability stacks, always helpful but not a killer mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. > > Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack > > The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. > > Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. > > Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. > Jesus christ dude does it really matter that the cooldown got lowered a few months after release? Like honestly in the grand scheme of things how important was it to point out? That's basically release, it's something rangers have had since the beginning of the game and have built up muscle memory on over the years. If you can't figure out how to counter a ranger "spamming" greatsword 4 once every 12 seconds idk what to tell you. I don't know how hard it is for you guys to mentally keep track of cooldowns but I max out at like 2.5 players generally for dodges, heals, CCs, initiative/energy costs, important skills, etc. etc. A single 12s block that can be easily baited out because so many rangers "spam" it isn't that hard to work around. I can adapt. It's just annoying and I would rather the gameplay not be slowed down and dumbed down even further. Again, it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of skills without slowing the game down and changing the way classes play. This balancing approach is what turned Druid from an active, engaging spec into a 1 spamming, mind-numbing shell of it's former self. It also finally dawned on Arenanet that simply increasing the cooldown on Rampage without actually adjusting the problems (the damage coupled with hard CCs) wasn't cutting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > > > > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > > > > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > > > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > > > > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. > > > > Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack > > > > The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. > > > > Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. > > > > Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. > > > > Jesus christ dude does it really matter that the cooldown got lowered a few months after release? Like honestly in the grand scheme of things how important was it to point out? That's basically release, it's something rangers have had since the beginning of the game and have built up muscle memory on over the years. > > If you can't figure out how to counter a ranger "spamming" greatsword 4 once every 12 seconds idk what to tell you. I don't know how hard it is for you guys to mentally keep track of cooldowns but I max out at like 2.5 players generally for dodges, heals, CCs, initiative/energy costs, important skills, etc. etc. A single 12s block that can be easily baited out because so many rangers "spam" it isn't that hard to work around. > > I can adapt. It's just annoying and I would rather the gameplay not be slowed down and dumbed down even further. Again, it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of skills without slowing the game down and changing the way classes play. This balancing approach is what turned Druid from an active, engaging spec into a 1 spamming, mind-numbing shell of it's former self. It also finally dawned on Arenanet that simply increasing the cooldown on Rampage without actually adjusting the problems (the damage coupled with hard CCs) wasn't cutting it. A few months after release =/= on release, not sure why you want to argue semantics but whatever /shrug. The problem isn't keeping track of it, the problem is it's availability at any moment you need it meaning you don't have to think about when and where you use the block and you see this all the time currently with rangers hitting block as soon as they can when no-one is even attacking. That is the very definition of dumbed down because it's always there and ready to use. That's without mentioning how effective it becomes in the hands of someone who does a small amount of thinking if they should use it or not, it becomes a really dumbed down skill on a low cool down the way you're wanting it. It needs to be a much longer cool down. The pace of the game at the moment is far too high, it's made many subtleties of the core game irrelevant and the game is much the worse for it. Your druid analogy is flawed because druid was always designed as support (go back and watch HoT previews) except they never really gave it the niche it needed nor defined clear niches for other forms of support so only 1 support was ever really top instead of each being the best for different comps/play styles. This is also what happened to tempest when FB came along because it did everything tempest did and more instead of filling a different niche. Rampage is another flawed analogy because they increased the cool down by 30s but because everyone traited it that was more like 24s, it basically wasn't enough considering it used to be a 2.5 min or 3 min cool down while also not being buffed by 25 might, peak performance or the slew of damage boosts slotted into traits over the years and being 25% damage reduction not 50%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > > > > > > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > > > > > > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > > > > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > > > > > > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. > > > > > > Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack > > > > > > The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. > > > > > > Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. > > > > > > Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. > > > > > > > Jesus christ dude does it really matter that the cooldown got lowered a few months after release? Like honestly in the grand scheme of things how important was it to point out? That's basically release, it's something rangers have had since the beginning of the game and have built up muscle memory on over the years. > > > > If you can't figure out how to counter a ranger "spamming" greatsword 4 once every 12 seconds idk what to tell you. I don't know how hard it is for you guys to mentally keep track of cooldowns but I max out at like 2.5 players generally for dodges, heals, CCs, initiative/energy costs, important skills, etc. etc. A single 12s block that can be easily baited out because so many rangers "spam" it isn't that hard to work around. > > > > I can adapt. It's just annoying and I would rather the gameplay not be slowed down and dumbed down even further. Again, it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of skills without slowing the game down and changing the way classes play. This balancing approach is what turned Druid from an active, engaging spec into a 1 spamming, mind-numbing shell of it's former self. It also finally dawned on Arenanet that simply increasing the cooldown on Rampage without actually adjusting the problems (the damage coupled with hard CCs) wasn't cutting it. > > A few months after release =/= on release, not sure why you want to argue semantics but whatever /shrug. > > The problem isn't keeping track of it, the problem is it's availability at any moment you need it meaning you don't have to think about when and where you use the block and you see this all the time currently with rangers hitting block as soon as they can when no-one is even attacking. That is the very definition of dumbed down because it's always there and ready to use. That's without mentioning how effective it becomes in the hands of someone who does a small amount of thinking if they should use it or not, it becomes a really dumbed down skill on a low cool down the way you're wanting it. It needs to be a much longer cool down. > > The pace of the game at the moment is far too high, it's made many subtleties of the core game irrelevant and the game is much the worse for it. > > Your druid analogy is flawed because druid was always designed as support (go back and watch HoT previews) except they never really gave it the niche it needed nor defined clear niches for other forms of support so only 1 support was ever really top instead of each being the best for different comps/play styles. This is also what happened to tempest when FB came along because it did everything tempest did and more instead of filling a different niche. > > Rampage is another flawed analogy because they increased the cool down by 30s but because everyone traited it that was more like 24s, it basically wasn't enough considering it used to be a 2.5 min or 3 min cool down while also not being buffed by 25 might, peak performance or the slew of damage boosts slotted into traits over the years and being 25% damage reduction not 50%. > It's really not that important, but if you want to be anal about it, go ahead. 7 years is 7 years and it's a skill that rangers have had since the beginning of the game. Coming from a person that plays a class with the ability to DODGE WHILE STUNNED and KILL PEOPLE WITH SAID DODGES (without requiring any thought, available at any moment you need it!) that's a pretty funny statement. Druid is a complete mess right now. Idc what it was designed as, the nerfs completely butchered the spec's viability in PvP. Rampage was still busted after the cooldown increase. I've stated multiple times in the past that simply increasing the cooldown wouldn't fix the issue. Guess what happened? Anet finally came to the same conclusion and now Rampage actually got fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I think memetics play a role in this debacle. Certain things have been historically OP for so long, and other things historically underdog for so long, that when things are actually balanced, people think the historically OP things are suddenly too weak, and the historical underdogs are suddenly too strong. This is because they've played for so many years where things felt a certain way, that they stop looking at things in terms of reasonable logical mechanical gauging of balance, and rather begin forming opinions based on historical bias of how they are used to things feeling from the past. It's not that they consciously do this. It's more that they've narrowly played the same thing for so long, that their perspective of "game balance" is only coming from the subjective experience of that one class that they have by far played the most. For example, let's say a said given player had only ever played 1 class, which had spent a very high uptime during all meta patchings, always as a top 3 meta. During a single patching, his class is nerfed a bit putting it down middle way into the tiers for once. Because he has never played anything else and has nothing to compare his experience to, he really begins to believe that his class was nerfed too much when other classes are able to beat him more consistently. He begins posting in the forums about how other classes are overpowered, because he is experiencing for the first time what it is like to be countered by something, which is actually normal in Guild Wars 2 when a class is balanced. I feel that this is happening with Ranger right now in this thread. Are people forgetting that Ranger has been being hard nerfed for like the past 2 years? Let's do a quick review of what's happened ever since PoF arrived with Soulbeast: 1. Soulbeast arrives, Gazelle gets immediate nerfed. It was actually for real 1HKOing people on initial release. Even I had pointed out that the Gazelle was literally "broken" as if a dev had actually made a serious error when inputting the original damage value for that pet. 2. Boonbeast emerges. OMFG it's OP nerf it. 3. Boonbeast sustain takes enormous hits, as well as Sig of Stone nerf, Boonbeast disappears. 4. Sic Em Soulbeast shows up. OMFG it's OP nerf it. 5. Worldy Impact gets nerfed. I blame @"Ovark.2514" for being caught in a screenshot in EC, landing a 63k WI. 6. Sic Em gets nerfed. OMFG it was so strong. That's why there are so many Ranger mains with the Best Of The Best title right? Regardless, I actually advocated a lot of suggestions on how to nerf Sic Em. I admitted it was too strong for what it was. 5. OMFG Soulbeast has infinite unblockable attacks, nerf it. 6. Soulbeast unblockable attacks get nerfed into an incredibly watered down state, which I was again an advocate of this suggestion. It had too many unblockables. Regardless of if the class was or wasn't being used in higher tiered scenes, I felt it was too much for what it was. 7. A plethora of incoming Druid nerfs hit like some wrath of god natural disaster, and then Druid was gone as if it had never lived. Still to this day I truly have no clue why Arenanet chose to look at this one profession and rather nerf it, they destroyed it. Anyway, I think the truth to all of this ranger hate, is that now that Arenanet is finally actually bringing the usual big boy top 3 classes into a balance, people are experiencing what it feels like to be on par with a ranger, which is not something they are used to. But rest assured! Ranger is still not being used in any serious MAT play by teams who actually want to win. Rest assured, Ranger isn't that good yet. So chillax, give it a break, focus on the real problems. After a discussion with @"mortrialus.3062" a bit earlier, I personally feel that the class balance isn't that bad right now outside of a few things that could be tweaked. The bigger problems are within the game's direction in general, all classes wide. This time around, the problem is not as simple as pointing at one OP class/build. I sincerely hope people begin recognizing this, so we can give Arenanet better feedback rather than repeating this never ending nerf this buff that cycle. If you didn't notice, that isn't landing us anywhere even in the ballpark of balance. The issues are deeper yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigr.6481 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Arcane Thievery - So a 25 second cooldown skill is a spammable ability so that justifies the removal of slow? That's news to me. And removing the slow makes it "more interactive"? You can do better. PU: This is more of a problem of the mechanic of stealth, or rather the damage behind several attacks rather than PU itself. You're starting to sound like a dev in the way you're trying to balance things, and not in a good way. Instead of dealing with the problem directly "the mechanic of stealth", you're trying to gut the supplementary skills supporting stealth that's the problem. Pu was never a problem, make suggestions on the mechanic of stealth and how to change it game wide that benefits everyone, albeit it's harder of a fix, and possibly not realistic, but it's the change that needs to be made. This is a discussion within itself, which also involves changes to reveal. One idea off the top of my head is that stealth would only be effective based on distance, the closer you got to a target, the less effective it becomes, and if you're on top of someone it's instantly removed/able to be targetted and can be seen more clearly. Obviously you'd have to find a way for reveal to be blended into that idea, but you get my point. Reveal is like resistance, under utilized, and poorly implemented overall, it's time for a overhaul to the system. But I'm asking too much here since it makes sense, maybe for guild wars 3. Mantra Of Pain : The might is fine, the cooldown is the problem here. With a 1 second cooldown you can literally spam it. Give it a longer cooldown, keep the might, you can also do several things with mantra of pain that rewards you spamming this ability that's cheesy in nature. 0/3 my friend. Although I didn't really expect you to come up with anything too concrete since you're not experienced on the class "no offense", but there was an attempt. Countless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddbopkins.2630 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Fa ele scentament seems fair. But can you also say the same thing for the traited lighting strike as well. There instant and no animation but I guess since they don't hit over like 2-2.5k it's not that big of a problem? I also feel if its not insta cast then class will be dead an unable to condend in it's respective category with thf and rev. Thf having teleports and invis and evasions to keep out of harm's way, rev has teleport block and unlockables to get the job done. If u take away fa eles one and only most reliable damage move against those constant teleporting constant evade constant block classes then the class is DEAD Dragons tooth, pheniox, scepter water 2 all are to slow with way long delays or travel time to be of any real use in pvp. Great for cleave but a endless evade thf with telports and constant pistol wipe? Or rev with there fast hard on damage? Nah it be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Every balance patch Vallun talks about hating slow and it's the most obvious"thief main" thing to complain about because most of the other conditions that inhibit skill use thief just doesn't care about. Take Chilled for example. For most classes chilled is BRUTAL to have to suffer through, especially long durations. Not only does it grind movement to a halt but it makes every second something is cooling down take 1.66 seconds. Suddenly that three second cooldown remaining on that interrupt you need is going to take 5 seconds. Thief doesn't care about either of these, at least to the degree everyone else does. Thief is built around teleporting to and away from opponents frequently and rapidly. So the movement impairment is less of an issue for them. And while their utilities have cooldowns, their weapon skills don't at all. Chill doesn't even slow initiative generation. So thieves handle chill very well compared to everyone else. Or Blind. Blind can make or break fights in a moment. A well timed blind can stop a CC that would open up damage that would end a fight. Or cause you to whiff your main damage attack. Or prevent you from spawning a Phantasm. And let's say you're blinded, you recognize it, and you need a skill NOW you have to run through a thought process: Do I cleanse it? Do I have time to land a low value attack and spend the blind and then use the cooldown I need? But while thieves still will miss attacks due to blind, if a Flanking Strike or Head Shot gets blinded the initiative system allows them to do it again immediately after. Plus thieves attack rapidly, most of their high damage output comes from multi hit skills. So all their big damage attacks it's just one part of of maybe 3x hits or 5x hits that misses. But slow? Slow hits thieves just as hard as it hits everyone else. Initiative doesn't help them. Unless they cleanse they are slow casting just like everyone else. So you can see why Vallun just really thinks slow in particular is uniquely unfun as a condition that needs culling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > > > > > > > > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > > > > > > > > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > > > > > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. > > > > > > > > Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack > > > > > > > > The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. > > > > > > > > Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. > > > > > > > > Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. > > > > > > > > > > Jesus christ dude does it really matter that the cooldown got lowered a few months after release? Like honestly in the grand scheme of things how important was it to point out? That's basically release, it's something rangers have had since the beginning of the game and have built up muscle memory on over the years. > > > > > > If you can't figure out how to counter a ranger "spamming" greatsword 4 once every 12 seconds idk what to tell you. I don't know how hard it is for you guys to mentally keep track of cooldowns but I max out at like 2.5 players generally for dodges, heals, CCs, initiative/energy costs, important skills, etc. etc. A single 12s block that can be easily baited out because so many rangers "spam" it isn't that hard to work around. > > > > > > I can adapt. It's just annoying and I would rather the gameplay not be slowed down and dumbed down even further. Again, it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of skills without slowing the game down and changing the way classes play. This balancing approach is what turned Druid from an active, engaging spec into a 1 spamming, mind-numbing shell of it's former self. It also finally dawned on Arenanet that simply increasing the cooldown on Rampage without actually adjusting the problems (the damage coupled with hard CCs) wasn't cutting it. > > > > A few months after release =/= on release, not sure why you want to argue semantics but whatever /shrug. > > > > The problem isn't keeping track of it, the problem is it's availability at any moment you need it meaning you don't have to think about when and where you use the block and you see this all the time currently with rangers hitting block as soon as they can when no-one is even attacking. That is the very definition of dumbed down because it's always there and ready to use. That's without mentioning how effective it becomes in the hands of someone who does a small amount of thinking if they should use it or not, it becomes a really dumbed down skill on a low cool down the way you're wanting it. It needs to be a much longer cool down. > > > > The pace of the game at the moment is far too high, it's made many subtleties of the core game irrelevant and the game is much the worse for it. > > > > Your druid analogy is flawed because druid was always designed as support (go back and watch HoT previews) except they never really gave it the niche it needed nor defined clear niches for other forms of support so only 1 support was ever really top instead of each being the best for different comps/play styles. This is also what happened to tempest when FB came along because it did everything tempest did and more instead of filling a different niche. > > > > Rampage is another flawed analogy because they increased the cool down by 30s but because everyone traited it that was more like 24s, it basically wasn't enough considering it used to be a 2.5 min or 3 min cool down while also not being buffed by 25 might, peak performance or the slew of damage boosts slotted into traits over the years and being 25% damage reduction not 50%. > > > > It's really not that important, but if you want to be anal about it, go ahead. 7 years is 7 years and it's a skill that rangers have had since the beginning of the game. > > Coming from a person that plays a class with the ability to DODGE WHILE STUNNED and KILL PEOPLE WITH SAID DODGES (without requiring any thought, available at any moment you need it!) that's a pretty funny statement. > > Druid is a complete mess right now. Idc what it was designed as, the nerfs completely butchered the spec's viability in PvP. > > Rampage was still busted after the cooldown increase. I've stated multiple times in the past that simply increasing the cooldown wouldn't fix the issue. Guess what happened? Anet finally came to the same conclusion and now Rampage actually got fixed. I don't play mirage, I play core mesmer, ele (grieving) or in general whatever support my friends need so not sure why you're making that statement, though perhaps you should attack the argument not the person. Druid is still somewhat functional, go ask Stronglo if you need help playing it, I'm sure he'd happily talk to you about it. My point however was that your analogy was flawed as the reason druid is a mess is it has no niche to fill for it's intended role, the same problem with tempest vs firebrand. No focus = poor balance objectives = poor balance. Rampage was still busted because it was a meaningless increase for the power of the ability, historically it saw use on a 150s cool down and that was before it was buffed, needing to be 180s before rampage dropped off meta, that's June 2015-July 2015. Basically they needed to undo the March 2018 update to the skill, it had a high reward for a high cool down which is good to have as you need to think about when you use a skill not just use it for a stomp or a mobility aid. All of this is detracting from the points though: 1. The block is now a true block + flip over evade, much stronger than release. 2. A true block being available this often (every 12s) is dumbed down. 3. The nearest similar block is shield stance which is also 25s cool down. 4. The pace of the game needs slowing down and TTK in 1v1s, this is why people en masse left GW2 in HoT and PoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > > > > > > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. > > > > > > > > > > Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack > > > > > > > > > > The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. > > > > > > > > > > Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. > > > > > > > > > > Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus christ dude does it really matter that the cooldown got lowered a few months after release? Like honestly in the grand scheme of things how important was it to point out? That's basically release, it's something rangers have had since the beginning of the game and have built up muscle memory on over the years. > > > > > > > > If you can't figure out how to counter a ranger "spamming" greatsword 4 once every 12 seconds idk what to tell you. I don't know how hard it is for you guys to mentally keep track of cooldowns but I max out at like 2.5 players generally for dodges, heals, CCs, initiative/energy costs, important skills, etc. etc. A single 12s block that can be easily baited out because so many rangers "spam" it isn't that hard to work around. > > > > > > > > I can adapt. It's just annoying and I would rather the gameplay not be slowed down and dumbed down even further. Again, it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of skills without slowing the game down and changing the way classes play. This balancing approach is what turned Druid from an active, engaging spec into a 1 spamming, mind-numbing shell of it's former self. It also finally dawned on Arenanet that simply increasing the cooldown on Rampage without actually adjusting the problems (the damage coupled with hard CCs) wasn't cutting it. > > > > > > A few months after release =/= on release, not sure why you want to argue semantics but whatever /shrug. > > > > > > The problem isn't keeping track of it, the problem is it's availability at any moment you need it meaning you don't have to think about when and where you use the block and you see this all the time currently with rangers hitting block as soon as they can when no-one is even attacking. That is the very definition of dumbed down because it's always there and ready to use. That's without mentioning how effective it becomes in the hands of someone who does a small amount of thinking if they should use it or not, it becomes a really dumbed down skill on a low cool down the way you're wanting it. It needs to be a much longer cool down. > > > > > > The pace of the game at the moment is far too high, it's made many subtleties of the core game irrelevant and the game is much the worse for it. > > > > > > Your druid analogy is flawed because druid was always designed as support (go back and watch HoT previews) except they never really gave it the niche it needed nor defined clear niches for other forms of support so only 1 support was ever really top instead of each being the best for different comps/play styles. This is also what happened to tempest when FB came along because it did everything tempest did and more instead of filling a different niche. > > > > > > Rampage is another flawed analogy because they increased the cool down by 30s but because everyone traited it that was more like 24s, it basically wasn't enough considering it used to be a 2.5 min or 3 min cool down while also not being buffed by 25 might, peak performance or the slew of damage boosts slotted into traits over the years and being 25% damage reduction not 50%. > > > > > > > It's really not that important, but if you want to be anal about it, go ahead. 7 years is 7 years and it's a skill that rangers have had since the beginning of the game. > > > > Coming from a person that plays a class with the ability to DODGE WHILE STUNNED and KILL PEOPLE WITH SAID DODGES (without requiring any thought, available at any moment you need it!) that's a pretty funny statement. > > > > Druid is a complete mess right now. Idc what it was designed as, the nerfs completely butchered the spec's viability in PvP. > > > > Rampage was still busted after the cooldown increase. I've stated multiple times in the past that simply increasing the cooldown wouldn't fix the issue. Guess what happened? Anet finally came to the same conclusion and now Rampage actually got fixed. > > I don't play mirage, I play core mesmer, ele (grieving) or in general whatever support my friends need so not sure why you're making that statement, though perhaps you should attack the argument not the person. > > Druid is still somewhat functional, go ask Stronglo if you need help playing it, I'm sure he'd happily talk to you about it. My point however was that your analogy was flawed as the reason druid is a mess is it has no niche to fill for it's intended role, the same problem with tempest vs firebrand. No focus = poor balance objectives = poor balance. > > Rampage was still busted because it was a meaningless increase for the power of the ability, historically it saw use on a 150s cool down and that was before it was buffed, needing to be 180s before rampage dropped off meta, that's June 2015-July 2015. Basically they needed to undo the March 2018 update to the skill, it had a high reward for a high cool down which is good to have as you need to think about when you use a skill not just use it for a stomp or a mobility aid. > > All of this is detracting from the points though: > 1. The block is now a true block + flip over evade, much stronger than release. > 2. A true block being available this often (every 12s) is dumbed down. > 3. The nearest similar block is shield stance which is also 25s cool down. > 4. The pace of the game needs slowing down and TTK in 1v1s, this is why people en masse left GW2 in HoT and PoF. > Druid is a mess because it has no niche to fill? LOL No. Druid is a mess because it doesn't deal damage, can barely sustain itself, and can't keep it's own pets alive against competant players/team fights. Not to mention the class mechanic is gated behind a very long 20 second cooldown with the actual skills we gain access to being relatively useless and insanely slow in a power meta. Forced into healing power amulets too due to base healing power being nearly nonexistent. Anet better give us the old greatsword block back, Crippling Throw, and the auto attack evades if they decide to GUT the living hell out of the current Greatsword 4. You clearly don't have much experience playing ranger because your suggestions would completely butcher our already weak staying power on node. The weapon _ALREADY LOSES_ against 80% of the specs out there in straight trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > > > > > > > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack > > > > > > > > > > > > The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus christ dude does it really matter that the cooldown got lowered a few months after release? Like honestly in the grand scheme of things how important was it to point out? That's basically release, it's something rangers have had since the beginning of the game and have built up muscle memory on over the years. > > > > > > > > > > If you can't figure out how to counter a ranger "spamming" greatsword 4 once every 12 seconds idk what to tell you. I don't know how hard it is for you guys to mentally keep track of cooldowns but I max out at like 2.5 players generally for dodges, heals, CCs, initiative/energy costs, important skills, etc. etc. A single 12s block that can be easily baited out because so many rangers "spam" it isn't that hard to work around. > > > > > > > > > > I can adapt. It's just annoying and I would rather the gameplay not be slowed down and dumbed down even further. Again, it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of skills without slowing the game down and changing the way classes play. This balancing approach is what turned Druid from an active, engaging spec into a 1 spamming, mind-numbing shell of it's former self. It also finally dawned on Arenanet that simply increasing the cooldown on Rampage without actually adjusting the problems (the damage coupled with hard CCs) wasn't cutting it. > > > > > > > > A few months after release =/= on release, not sure why you want to argue semantics but whatever /shrug. > > > > > > > > The problem isn't keeping track of it, the problem is it's availability at any moment you need it meaning you don't have to think about when and where you use the block and you see this all the time currently with rangers hitting block as soon as they can when no-one is even attacking. That is the very definition of dumbed down because it's always there and ready to use. That's without mentioning how effective it becomes in the hands of someone who does a small amount of thinking if they should use it or not, it becomes a really dumbed down skill on a low cool down the way you're wanting it. It needs to be a much longer cool down. > > > > > > > > The pace of the game at the moment is far too high, it's made many subtleties of the core game irrelevant and the game is much the worse for it. > > > > > > > > Your druid analogy is flawed because druid was always designed as support (go back and watch HoT previews) except they never really gave it the niche it needed nor defined clear niches for other forms of support so only 1 support was ever really top instead of each being the best for different comps/play styles. This is also what happened to tempest when FB came along because it did everything tempest did and more instead of filling a different niche. > > > > > > > > Rampage is another flawed analogy because they increased the cool down by 30s but because everyone traited it that was more like 24s, it basically wasn't enough considering it used to be a 2.5 min or 3 min cool down while also not being buffed by 25 might, peak performance or the slew of damage boosts slotted into traits over the years and being 25% damage reduction not 50%. > > > > > > > > > > It's really not that important, but if you want to be anal about it, go ahead. 7 years is 7 years and it's a skill that rangers have had since the beginning of the game. > > > > > > Coming from a person that plays a class with the ability to DODGE WHILE STUNNED and KILL PEOPLE WITH SAID DODGES (without requiring any thought, available at any moment you need it!) that's a pretty funny statement. > > > > > > Druid is a complete mess right now. Idc what it was designed as, the nerfs completely butchered the spec's viability in PvP. > > > > > > Rampage was still busted after the cooldown increase. I've stated multiple times in the past that simply increasing the cooldown wouldn't fix the issue. Guess what happened? Anet finally came to the same conclusion and now Rampage actually got fixed. > > > > I don't play mirage, I play core mesmer, ele (grieving) or in general whatever support my friends need so not sure why you're making that statement, though perhaps you should attack the argument not the person. > > > > Druid is still somewhat functional, go ask Stronglo if you need help playing it, I'm sure he'd happily talk to you about it. My point however was that your analogy was flawed as the reason druid is a mess is it has no niche to fill for it's intended role, the same problem with tempest vs firebrand. No focus = poor balance objectives = poor balance. > > > > Rampage was still busted because it was a meaningless increase for the power of the ability, historically it saw use on a 150s cool down and that was before it was buffed, needing to be 180s before rampage dropped off meta, that's June 2015-July 2015. Basically they needed to undo the March 2018 update to the skill, it had a high reward for a high cool down which is good to have as you need to think about when you use a skill not just use it for a stomp or a mobility aid. > > > > All of this is detracting from the points though: > > 1. The block is now a true block + flip over evade, much stronger than release. > > 2. A true block being available this often (every 12s) is dumbed down. > > 3. The nearest similar block is shield stance which is also 25s cool down. > > 4. The pace of the game needs slowing down and TTK in 1v1s, this is why people en masse left GW2 in HoT and PoF. > > > > Druid is a mess because it has no niche to fill? LOL > > No. Druid is a mess because it doesn't deal damage, can barely sustain itself, and can't keep it's own pets alive against competant players/team fights. Not to mention the class mechanic is gated behind a very long 20 second cooldown with the actual skills we gain access to being relatively useless and insanely slow in a power meta. Forced into healing power amulets too due to base healing power being nearly nonexistent. > > Anet better give us the old greatsword block back, Crippling Throw, and the auto attack evades if they decide to GUT the living hell out of the current Greatsword 4. You clearly don't have much experience playing ranger because your suggestions would completely butcher our already weak staying power on node. The weapon _ALREADY LOSES_ against 80% of the specs out there in straight trades. You really are trying your hardest to divert talk away from Counterattack, there are only 4 channelled multihit blocks without a cancelling component that come close to the same cool down as current Counterattack: [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warding_Rift] - cannot reduce CD https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shock_Shield - cannot reduce CD or with traiting: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gear_Shield - can be as low as 13s CD https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense - this is the closest to Counterattack The closest skill to Counterattack is actually Bandit's Defence, it even has the flip over component however it is a stunbreak but the block duration is half as much while also not evading in the flip over. Most other blocks that allow multiple hits from ranged and melee are 25s or more without traiting. To put it bluntly Counterattack as it currently is on ranger is the best block in the entire game while enjoying a 2nd evade on the GS itself. Giving evade back onto GS is a bad idea, the reason the changes that we saw to ranger happened was because ranger at it's core has more evades and blocks on it's weapon sets than any other class except maybe thief and mesmer on some specific builds while enjoying sustain on par with warrior. To be clear here I wasn't saying butcher the class, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill, I said it should go up to 20s possibly 25s but hey let's start at 20s and see how it fits in with the new power levels. Before you inevitably respond please do pay attention to the duration of the blocks listed as well as those in the list of blocks and their specific conditions which cause them to cancel. Your original suggestion of 2s block on a 12s CD would also be stronger than most blocks in the game, just as my suggestion of 20s still makes it one of the strongest blocks in the game. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Vallun.2071" said: > > Buff Swipe to 900 Range > > Yeah, no. If anything should be happening to Swipe it should be it loses Unblockable so taking daredevil is an actual trade off, rather than this wishy washy "We know thieves will get TOO mad if it loses range so let's give them Unblockable on a skill that is already one of the most impactful and least counterplayable things in the game." > > What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters). Also, Daredevil already *is* an actual trade-off. Why do you think D/P became practically unplayable, while core S/D became the best build for a long time? Its not like the other classes where there is no reason to ever not use an elite spec, in thieves case you need to have a really good reason to use one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dDuff.3860 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Vallun.2071" said: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJisX9-QAqc part about portal: -your argumentation "portal is op because it can get recharged from improvisation so you can have it put twice" and "it is a save ability on 60 second cooldown" — hard lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters). Please what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 I wouldnt say that the Shadow Arts reworks were "really good". In fact, the words Id use are "absolutely atrocious". Cloaked in Shadow went from a decent ability that simply suffered from the fact that in-combat stealth sucks, to an absolute joke, which has healing so little its initial value couldve been buffed by 1000% before it was *maybe* a little viable. And even then, its *so* much worse than the old version. Shadow Siphoning has the same issue, its values are pathetic (especially since it requires you using stealth attacks), that compared to the old 25% damage reduction in stealth, it just doesnt compare. Thing is, Im not even sure either of these traits are worth salvaging. Youd have to push up the numbers way high, but even then they lack the build to get into A, and B have little to nothing to do with Shadow Arts anymore. Id say just revert em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > What? The unblockable part legitimately never matters, because it would be stupid to waste it on a blocking enemy (Which is the only time it ever matters). > > Please what? > > Whats so confusing about it? Your Swipe is a key interrupt cooldown. Especially in S/P builds where your interrupts are otherwise inefficient (headshot) or slow to use (Pistol Whip). You want to use it to stop their big hits, or healing skills, or whatever. You really dont want to waste it on a block, because they cant hit you back, and theyre just delaying you. Well, unless theyre already close to death, but at that point you might as well just wait a couple seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing the cooldown for GS4's block will mess up muscle memory > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry but that's the weakest excuse I've ever heard for not nerfing something. It even beats out "jUsT dOdGe". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay here's some quick maths for you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Vallun wants to keep the 3 second block but increase the cooldown to 15 seconds. Result? 1/5 uptime on block, messes up muscle memory for rangers on a skill we've had since release. > > > > > > > > - I want to lower the block to 2 seconds and leave the cooldown at 12 seconds. Result? 1/6 uptime on block, muscle memory stays the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's possible to reduce the effectiveness of abilities without changing the pace of the game and the way the classes play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not quite, Counterattack was 20s on release. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterattack > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The block should be at least 20s (probably25s) but kept at 3s, the reason is that it's not skillful to "spam" skills and then LoS or run away for a bit till they're all back up in 12s. This is a big contributory factor to why the power level in the game has reached such a level while skill across the board has dropped because there's little value to timing your skills properly to land or to cancel cast when the recharge is only marginally higher. Having higher recharge times, especially on channelled skills, also gives them opportunity/cost to cancel early for an opening or to continue to use, this would be almost non existent at 2s block and 12s recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Relearning and adapting to changes is a component of skill too, it's why some teams won ESLs back in the day, they had players who adapted faster. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note it's 12s traited recharge for anyone looking at this, the base cool down is 15s which already makes it one of the best if not the best blocks in the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesus christ dude does it really matter that the cooldown got lowered a few months after release? Like honestly in the grand scheme of things how important was it to point out? That's basically release, it's something rangers have had since the beginning of the game and have built up muscle memory on over the years. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you can't figure out how to counter a ranger "spamming" greatsword 4 once every 12 seconds idk what to tell you. I don't know how hard it is for you guys to mentally keep track of cooldowns but I max out at like 2.5 players generally for dodges, heals, CCs, initiative/energy costs, important skills, etc. etc. A single 12s block that can be easily baited out because so many rangers "spam" it isn't that hard to work around. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can adapt. It's just annoying and I would rather the gameplay not be slowed down and dumbed down even further. Again, it's possible to reduce the effectiveness of skills without slowing the game down and changing the way classes play. This balancing approach is what turned Druid from an active, engaging spec into a 1 spamming, mind-numbing shell of it's former self. It also finally dawned on Arenanet that simply increasing the cooldown on Rampage without actually adjusting the problems (the damage coupled with hard CCs) wasn't cutting it. > > > > > > > > > > A few months after release =/= on release, not sure why you want to argue semantics but whatever /shrug. > > > > > > > > > > The problem isn't keeping track of it, the problem is it's availability at any moment you need it meaning you don't have to think about when and where you use the block and you see this all the time currently with rangers hitting block as soon as they can when no-one is even attacking. That is the very definition of dumbed down because it's always there and ready to use. That's without mentioning how effective it becomes in the hands of someone who does a small amount of thinking if they should use it or not, it becomes a really dumbed down skill on a low cool down the way you're wanting it. It needs to be a much longer cool down. > > > > > > > > > > The pace of the game at the moment is far too high, it's made many subtleties of the core game irrelevant and the game is much the worse for it. > > > > > > > > > > Your druid analogy is flawed because druid was always designed as support (go back and watch HoT previews) except they never really gave it the niche it needed nor defined clear niches for other forms of support so only 1 support was ever really top instead of each being the best for different comps/play styles. This is also what happened to tempest when FB came along because it did everything tempest did and more instead of filling a different niche. > > > > > > > > > > Rampage is another flawed analogy because they increased the cool down by 30s but because everyone traited it that was more like 24s, it basically wasn't enough considering it used to be a 2.5 min or 3 min cool down while also not being buffed by 25 might, peak performance or the slew of damage boosts slotted into traits over the years and being 25% damage reduction not 50%. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's really not that important, but if you want to be anal about it, go ahead. 7 years is 7 years and it's a skill that rangers have had since the beginning of the game. > > > > > > > > Coming from a person that plays a class with the ability to DODGE WHILE STUNNED and KILL PEOPLE WITH SAID DODGES (without requiring any thought, available at any moment you need it!) that's a pretty funny statement. > > > > > > > > Druid is a complete mess right now. Idc what it was designed as, the nerfs completely butchered the spec's viability in PvP. > > > > > > > > Rampage was still busted after the cooldown increase. I've stated multiple times in the past that simply increasing the cooldown wouldn't fix the issue. Guess what happened? Anet finally came to the same conclusion and now Rampage actually got fixed. > > > > > > I don't play mirage, I play core mesmer, ele (grieving) or in general whatever support my friends need so not sure why you're making that statement, though perhaps you should attack the argument not the person. > > > > > > Druid is still somewhat functional, go ask Stronglo if you need help playing it, I'm sure he'd happily talk to you about it. My point however was that your analogy was flawed as the reason druid is a mess is it has no niche to fill for it's intended role, the same problem with tempest vs firebrand. No focus = poor balance objectives = poor balance. > > > > > > Rampage was still busted because it was a meaningless increase for the power of the ability, historically it saw use on a 150s cool down and that was before it was buffed, needing to be 180s before rampage dropped off meta, that's June 2015-July 2015. Basically they needed to undo the March 2018 update to the skill, it had a high reward for a high cool down which is good to have as you need to think about when you use a skill not just use it for a stomp or a mobility aid. > > > > > > All of this is detracting from the points though: > > > 1. The block is now a true block + flip over evade, much stronger than release. > > > 2. A true block being available this often (every 12s) is dumbed down. > > > 3. The nearest similar block is shield stance which is also 25s cool down. > > > 4. The pace of the game needs slowing down and TTK in 1v1s, this is why people en masse left GW2 in HoT and PoF. > > > > > > > Druid is a mess because it has no niche to fill? LOL > > > > No. Druid is a mess because it doesn't deal damage, can barely sustain itself, and can't keep it's own pets alive against competant players/team fights. Not to mention the class mechanic is gated behind a very long 20 second cooldown with the actual skills we gain access to being relatively useless and insanely slow in a power meta. Forced into healing power amulets too due to base healing power being nearly nonexistent. > > > > Anet better give us the old greatsword block back, Crippling Throw, and the auto attack evades if they decide to GUT the living hell out of the current Greatsword 4. You clearly don't have much experience playing ranger because your suggestions would completely butcher our already weak staying power on node. The weapon _ALREADY LOSES_ against 80% of the specs out there in straight trades. > > You really are trying your hardest to divert talk away from Counterattack, there are only 4 channelled multihit blocks without a cancelling component that come close to the same cool down as current Counterattack: > > [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Warding_Rift] - cannot reduce CD > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shock_Shield - cannot reduce CD > or with traiting: > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gear_Shield - can be as low as 13s CD > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense - this is the closest to Counterattack > > The closest skill to Counterattack is actually Bandit's Defence, it even has the flip over component however it is a stunbreak but the block duration is half as much while also not evading in the flip over. > > Most other blocks that allow multiple hits from ranged and melee are 25s or more without traiting. To put it bluntly Counterattack as it currently is on ranger is the best block in the entire game while enjoying a 2nd evade on the GS itself. Giving evade back onto GS is a bad idea, the reason the changes that we saw to ranger happened was because ranger at it's core has more evades and blocks on it's weapon sets than any other class except maybe thief and mesmer on some specific builds while enjoying sustain on par with warrior. > > To be clear here I wasn't saying butcher the class, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill, I said it should go up to 20s possibly 25s but hey let's start at 20s and see how it fits in with the new power levels. Before you inevitably respond please do pay attention to the duration of the blocks listed as well as those in the list of blocks and their specific conditions which cause them to cancel. Your original suggestion of 2s block on a 12s CD would also be stronger than most blocks in the game, just as my suggestion of 20s still makes it one of the strongest blocks in the game. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block Do you not read what I'm saying? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1130453/#Comment_1130453 I'm fine with a harsher block uptime nerf than Vallun proposed but leave the cooldown alone. Considering the fact that the rest of greatsword's kit is fairly lackluster, Counterattack's strength is one of the only redeeming qualities about the weapon. The auto attacks lose to majority of the spec out there right now in trades. Mauls are extremely telegraphed (both visually and with an audio cue) and easy to avoid. Swoop disengages can be punished easily and consistently. Greatsword 4 loses to unblockables and the Counterattack Kick is easy to avoid. Hilt Bash can be walked away from, dodged, or baited out easily because it can't be stowed. 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Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Isnt ranger GS 4 the absolute best defensive cooldown in the game hands down? I just cant even find anything that comes remotly close to how overtuned that skill is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > Isnt ranger GS 4 the absolute best defensive cooldown in the game hands down? I just cant even find anything that comes remotly close to how overtuned that skill is. [bandit's Defense](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense) on Daredevil is a 16s cd (traited) stunbreak, endurance regen, Pulmonary Impact proc on interrupt, 1.5s block, and the knockdown has both a lower cast time and lasts longer than the CC on GS4's Counterattack Kick. Something that's also pretty overtuned is mantra mesmer being able to instantly oneshot from stealth on a short interval with zero tells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > Isnt ranger GS 4 the absolute best defensive cooldown in the game hands down? I just cant even find anything that comes remotly close to how overtuned that skill is. > > [bandit's Defense](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense) on Daredevil is a 16s cd (traited) stunbreak, endurance regen, Pulmonary Impact proc on interrupt, 1.5s block, and the knockdown has both a lower cast time and lasts longer than the CC on GS4's Counterattack Kick. > > Something that's also pretty overtuned is mantra mesmer being able to instantly oneshot from stealth on a short interval with zero tells. thx for proving my point. the best defensive cooldown you could find has 1/2 the block bigger cooldown doesnt have extra evade deals less damage nice try to derail btw ;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > Isnt ranger GS 4 the absolute best defensive cooldown in the game hands down? I just cant even find anything that comes remotly close to how overtuned that skill is. > > [bandit's Defense](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit%27s_Defense) on Daredevil is a 16s cd (traited) stunbreak, endurance regen, Pulmonary Impact proc on interrupt, 1.5s block, and the knockdown has both a lower cast time and lasts longer than the CC on GS4's Counterattack Kick. Not even close. One is a weapon skill and another utility slot, rofl. Ranger GS is literally busted and has everything -> evades,mobility, long block, CC's, spammable AOE damage (melee but still literally spams it) 3s block channeling, 15s cd, EVADE->CC like fullcounter. Closest what I'd compare would be shield stance on warrior. There is literally no excuse to give anyone such busted skill and weapon to have everything at once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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