If you're going to outbid on the trading post, it should be by a minimum of 5%

[Raolin Soulherder.3195]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @EriskRedLemur.7153 said:

> > Then DONT go by copper

>

> Copper pieces, not copper ore.

>

> Also my suggestion would almost certainly not affect copper ore. Even raising the price one or two copper is a substantial percentage, which means it would pass. Most users wouldn't notice a thing, because they're not going to high ticket items and raising the price by a penny with no intention of actually paying more, just to jump the queue.

 

Nobody's talking about copper ore. He's essentially saying you're probably leapfrogging other people by 1 copper yourself. If you want to put a bid in, make it it drastically higher than next one. Then people will be less likely to leapfrog you because they don't even want to match your price. Staying in front of the line comes with a price.

[Llethander.3972]

> @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> > @Llethander.3972 said:

> > > @"Game of Bones.8975" said:

> > > Ever look at a silent auction sheet? Some times people hover over an item and bid +$0.01 (One penny) over the last bit just to swipe it.

> > >

> >

> > That would be relevant if the Trading Post were an auction system. It would also be (somewhat) relevant to the discussion if those bidding in an auction had to pay to place their bid every time they wanted to change it similarly to how the Listing Fee works in GW2. It's not and they don't.

>

> The point I was making is that what is being talked about is not unique, it happens all over the place in the real world. People snipe bids at the last minute or bid in such small increments it can be frustrating.

 

Except that bid sniping - buyers in an auction - is a thing. Sale sniping, where you sell something at a penny lower than someone else, isn't because someone selling has to wait for someone who wants to buy. In a case where two people are selling the same thing one will typically ask for less than the other to increase the interest in buyers due to the better value. However, I'm pretty sure that in reality, since you are so adamant about bringing reality into things, if someone were to offer to sell something a penny cheaper than someone else it would generate no additional interest. The only reason this works in GW2 is because the Trading Post always places the item with the lowest listing price first thus incentivising the practice of listing items 1c cheaper than the item above. Thus was my point.

 

If the trading post had a Bid vs Buyout system it would be a somewhat different story as there would be the opportunity for bidding wars as opposed to simply selling items 1c cheaper than the person above. Even to say "just list yours at a notably lower price to de-incentivise listing lower" doesn't work since a profit less 1c is not noticeable enough to truly remove the incentive of listing at that 1c lower price. To use a personal example, I have listed an item that sells immediately for 25g and was 50g on a sell order for 35g and still had my listing undercut by 1c within minutes thus either requiring me to leave mine up and run the very real risk of it not selling due to consistent undercuts or relist it and take a loss on my listing fee.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Llethander.3972 said:

> The only reason this works in GW2 is because the Trading Post always places the item with the lowest listing price first thus incentivising the practice of listing items 1c cheaper than the item above. Thus was my point.

You haven't yet established why this is bad. Why should a 50g sell-listing be prioritized over 49.9999g? Since when in a capitalist system is paying more better than paying less?

 

> To use a personal example, I have listed an item that sells immediately for 25g and was 50g on a sell order for 35g and still had my listing undercut by 1c within minutes thus either requiring me to leave mine up and run the very real risk of it not selling due to consistent undercuts or relist it and take a loss on my listing fee.

 

You realize that if you had sold your item for 25g, there would have been no possibility of being undercut. The only reason it was possible to undersell you by 1 copper is that you, like your competitor, wanted to eke out an extra 10g (pre-fees).

 

You also haven't provided enough context. Was this a new item? It's incredibly common to see the market start high and drop quickly, sometimes in large increments, sometimes not. Was in a high-velecity exotic needed for a collection? In which case, it's likely that both 35g offers would sell out soon™ if not sooner, in which case the undercutting is irrelevant. Was it a low-velocity rare that hardly drops, but lacks strong demand? in which case, the 50g seller was clearly an optimist and even 35g might have been pressing your luck. Was it a Black Lion exclusive dye, which was just re-released? In which case, the market will be falling and one should expect undercutting by all sorts of amounts.

 

The fact is that being undercut by 1 copper or 5 gold or 5% or 10% doesn't materially affect the outcome. If five people are willing to sell for around 35g, you're going to have competition, but if 10 people are willing to pay 50g, then the undercuts won't matter at all. (And if only 3 people are willing to pay 35g, then the market needed to drop and you are simply unlucky for having posted first.)

 

****

Don't want to be undercut by 1 copper? Accept the highest buy offer and the problem is avoided entirely. If you're willing to risk your item taking longer to sell, then by all means go after the higher prices. Just don't expect that much sympathy for the idea that ANet should reduce your risk, without being willing to also reduce your earnings.

 

 

 

 

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > The goal of the market has never been fun.

>

> Can someone from ANet confirm please?

 

Seriously..

 

One persons idea of fun might not align with yours.. shock horror I know, but some players enjoy playing the markets not just running across a map to pick up 20 objects then swing a sword to kill 10 skritt over and over.

If you don't like the market don't play it... if you get undercut by whatever amount you can simply wait a whiles for it to come back.. or like others make a decision to repost at a lower price.

At the end of the day players will buy if they feel the price is right.. if your item is taking longer then likely your item isn't in demand or the players don't like your price.. the longer its unsold the more chance your gunna get undercut and yes that might be a copper piece.

Players a fickle thing.. we like to buy at the best price or sit and wait for someone to sell it to them for a bid price... its a hard life I know but if the TP is causing you this much pain and anguish, maybe just sell to vendors instead.. less return, but less drama.. or maybe you enjoy using the TP more than your letting on :)

[Malediktus.9250]

I kind of agree. It feels like a waste of time having to repost your offer just because someone outbid you by a single copper on an item worth several magnitudes more. (100g = 1m coppers)

[Trise.2865]

Welcome to the world of capital trading, where wars are won with pennies, and where you learn, very quickly, that fighting with honor will get you kicked square in the nuts.

 

To quote a line in this very game: "Cheap? A kill is a kill. You kill or you die."

[Zionka.6897]

copper implementation is good for the market. if people had to make larger amounts to sell/overbid/underbid whatever, there could be huge crashes (or spikes for that matter) in value on things. I'm just going from a selling perspective, since I've never done the "order" angle. I just know if buying and selling was forced into bigger gaps for the warring, it could go very badly. For both sellers and buyers. Embrace the copper coins, lol

[Bloodstealer.5978]

> @Malediktus.9250 said:

> I kind of agree. It feels like a waste of time having to repost your offer just because someone outbid you by a single copper on an item worth several magnitudes more. (100g = 1m coppers)

So when players begin outbidding you by 10 silver.. are you going to complain its a waste then as well or that your items gotten to cheap.. some will never be happy.

If you want to sell your items fast then you gotta play the game.. if you find it frustrating when your outbid, simply thing to do is sell to a vendor instead, problem solved!

 

[Lady Deedra.3126]

What happens when all the bids reach 10k?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Malediktus.9250 said:

> I kind of agree. It feels like a waste of time having to repost your offer just because someone outbid you by a single copper on an item worth several magnitudes more. (100g = 1m coppers)

 

If you don't want to be outbid, accept the lowest sell offer. If you want to take a risk to save some money (and why shouldn't you?), accept that there's a risk that it might take longer to fulfill. It's your choice as to how much risk you're willing to accept for how much coin.

[Zacchary.6183]

This would make Trading Post PvP more interesting. A Thumbs up for you OP.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @Malediktus.9250 said:

> > I kind of agree. It feels like a waste of time having to repost your offer just because someone outbid you by a single copper on an item worth several magnitudes more. (100g = 1m coppers)

>

> If you don't want to be outbid, accept the lowest sell offer. If you want to take a risk to save some money (and why shouldn't you?), accept that there's a risk that it might take longer to fulfill. It's your choice as to how much risk you're willing to accept for how much coin.

buy offers are most often flippers. I try to avoid giving people effortless profits

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @Malediktus.9250 said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > @Malediktus.9250 said:

> > > I kind of agree. It feels like a waste of time having to repost your offer just because someone outbid you by a single copper on an item worth several magnitudes more. (100g = 1m coppers)

> >

> > If you don't want to be outbid, accept the lowest sell offer. If you want to take a risk to save some money (and why shouldn't you?), accept that there's a risk that it might take longer to fulfill. It's your choice as to how much risk you're willing to accept for how much coin.

> buy offers are most often flippers. I try to avoid giving people effortless profits

 

There's no data supporting that contention. Buy offers are made by all sorts of people; I almost only offer something below, near, or just above buy offers. Sell offers are also made by all sorts of people; similarly, I rarely sell much below the market (often above).

 

But even if "buy offers are most often flippers", you're imposing the extra cost on yourself and asking ANet to change the game to support it. It's your choice, but that doesn't mean you get to avoid the risk of being under/overcut.

[Belorn.2659]

In order to save gold/maximize gold, I always sell at sell price minus one copper and buy at buy price plus one copper. Only if I am in a really rush (or been posting offers for a long time) do I skip and do a instant buy, and I only instant sell if the buy price is close enough to sell price that the risk isn't worth the difference.

 

Flippers earn their profits by taking the risk for you, mostly by holding it for a prolonged time as an investment in the hope that a future patch will make it worth several time more than it does right now.

[Ensign.2189]

> @Llethander.3972 said:

> Sale sniping, where you sell something at a penny lower than someone else, isn't because someone selling has to wait for someone who wants to buy. In a case where two people are selling the same thing one will typically ask for less than the other to increase the interest in buyers due to the better value. However, I'm pretty sure that in reality, since you are so adamant about bringing reality into things, if someone were to offer to sell something a penny cheaper than someone else it would generate no additional interest. The only reason this works in GW2 is because the Trading Post always places the item with the lowest listing price first thus incentivizing the practice of listing items 1c cheaper than the item above. Thus was my point.

 

This is probably too wonky and only of interest to a handful of people (here or otherwise), but there are issues with 'sale sniping' in the real world as well.

 

The canonical example has to do with mutual and index fund re-balancing. Such funds don't hold the same mix of equities forever, but have to periodically re-balance their portfolios to maintain their risk and growth profiles. When those funds re-balanced at particular dates and times, you'd see a lot of unusual market activity just before the order came in - for instance, if there was knowledge that a fund needed to buy more Microsoft stock to maintain its portfolio balance, for instance, you'd see a quick buy-up of Microsoft stock in the seconds before the order was placed, immediately re-listed at a higher price - and then settling back to where it was a few seconds after that.

 

Those funds break up and randomize the timing of their orders to counter this opportunism.

 

So yes, sale sniping is totally a thing that market managers need to plan for.

[Ensign.2189]

> @Llethander.3972 said:Even to say "just list yours at a notably lower price to de-incentivise listing lower" doesn't work since a profit less 1c is not noticeable enough to truly remove the incentive of listing at that 1c lower price.

 

In order for an argument for a 1c increment to be compelling, in my mind, you have to be able to explain why it not only shouldn't be higher, but also why it shouldn't be lower - why shouldn't the increment be 0.1c? Or 0.01c?

 

If you don't like fractional coppers for some reason, think of it as an increment for a whole stack of mithril ore - why not allow us to buy in bulk and increment that by a copper?

 

There is a switching cost associated with putting something new in - not just dev time, but players are invested in learning the current system and might not want to learn a new one - but that isn't a good reason for designing things the way they are a priori.

[thrdeye.1028]

If you want the price to increase to a certain amount, then bid that amount. It takes two to engage in a bidding war. If you think the other guy won't go to 110% of the current price, then bid 110%. If you're not willing to pay that much, why should you be able to make the other bidder pay that much to win? Why should you get the benefit of bidding 110% by bidding only 105%? We're talking low volume, presumably high value items here; that 5% increment could be a lot.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

Using the TP requires patience if your goal is to save gold wherever possible. Just make a bid and leave it for a while. Sure now and then someone will beat your bid by a small margin, but when their order is fulfilled yours will be next, and more likely than not, it will be fulfilled within a reasonable amount of time. The only situation where this isn't typically the case is when the value of an item gradually increases over time and your bid ends up being burried, but in that case it's less of an bidding war and more of a change in the perception of the value of the item in question.

 

I had this same situation recently. I put in an order for Runes of the Renegade, and I got one sold to me in a short space of time, but then the price started increasing and the rest of my order went unfulfilled. I just cancelled it and reevaluated the change in the value of the item and considered how to approach it. I could try bid again, and risk being outbid and having my order buried once more, or I could wait for the price to settle and then bid again. Or, I could just buy it at the lowest sell price. That's just how it goes, and setting minimum bid limits wouldn't actually change the situation much.

[Majic.4801]

Just bid a minimum of 5% more yourself and the problem will magically disappear for you without the need to change anything else.

[TwoGhosts.6790]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> Nobody in this thread, so far, has disagreed that it's a problem.

 

It's not a problem.

The TP is always a great reminder that you're not the centre of the universe.

~TG

[sorudo.9054]

the only thing that annoys me when selling stuff is that some ppl find a way to ask stuff for a lower price then the merchant value, that really needs to be addressed.

[TwoGhosts.6790]

> @sorudo.9054 said:

> the only thing that annoys me when selling stuff is that some ppl find a way to ask stuff for a lower price then the merchant value, that really needs to be addressed.

 

I think what you might be referring to is quite a large number of legacy buy orders that survived the last purge Anet made to get rid of items like this.

Don't sweat it - it's not possible actually fill any of these orders - they're just sitting there doing nothing until such time as Anet might finally purge them.

~TG

[MMAI.5892]

> @Mercury.9784 said:

> That's fine. I'm not putting any blame on someone who accepts the order. By all means, accept an additional 0.0001% on a high ticket item, if that floats your boat. The problem comes when you actually reward players who are willing to outbid by pennies for hours. These people get substantially tangible benefits for doing something that is tedious and annoying. And what's worse, depending on the item, there are people who will put in an order unaware that it's virtually impossible that it will ever be filled unless they come back every ten minutes to fight with somebody over the price.

>

 

Or they're also getting outbid by you/want the item just as badly. If it's a buy order and the item is that rare and desired, it will always be something of a crap shot as to if your buy order gets nudged down by a new one before it's filled. The option, at that point is to explore sell orders and decide if you want to pay a higher price to have it right now. If prices are being driven down through sell orders then either 1.) The item isn't that desirable 2.) It's not that rare 3.) There's an influx of them into the market.

 

Lastly, fighting with price every ten minutes speaks, honestly, more of impatience than any flaw in the TP. If the item is that low on the trade volume, then there's no need to change a buy order that frequently as the chances of one entering the market is relatively slim. If the item you want has buy orders stacking up then either it's so desired that demand is *far* outpacing supply, in which case you're probably better off shelving it for a month (especially right now with the market flux post expansion drop) and then seeing where it's at or finding an alternative way to get it (farm it, sell orders, etc). TP buy orders aren't a guarantee that you're going to get what you want anymore than a TP sell order is a guarantee that you're going to sell something for the price you want.

 

> I imagine ArenaNet prefers not to have that sort of thing in their game.

> Imagine someone entering into a real brick and mortor auction house and engaging in the same behavior. No matter what the bid, they put in an additional one cent, and then two people spend literally hours doing that until eventually we finally reach someone's limit.

>

> Obviously the auction house would (and almost certainly they all do) have a minimum increased bid, so that we avoid that nonsense.

 

As others have pointed out, the TP is not an auction house and does not function like one at all. None of us are bidding on individual items/lots but rather putting up through buy orders what we're willing to pay and, through sell orders what we're willing let go of x for. I might put up a 20g buy order for Eternity, I might be the only the buy order for it, but it's never going to get filled unless someone misclicks or the total cost for making Eternity drops dramatically. Conversely, I could have the only sell order at 20,000 gold, but the chances of it going for that are pretty slim.

 

>

> I still remain curious why anyone would object to this. If I'm interpreting correctly, nobody disagrees that this is unpleasant, but they just want me to 'man up' and deal with it and have a bad time because... screw me, I guess?

>

 

I do not see anyone objecting so much as pointing out that the TP has a specific function and fills that function; it's just not filling the function you want it to. Changing the way we place orders - buy or sell - is not going to fundamentally solve your problem. The only thing that it will determine is if you hit your price ceiling/floor for that particular item sooner than if you did otherwise. Meaning that someone with more gold/investment in that item is *still* going to out pace your buy orders/sell orders. I grant that some people might stop and reassess a buy order or sell order if the price difference hits, say 20s, but ultimately, if they want it and the price is still in their range, they're going to do it anyway.

 

yes, there are people who spend a lot of time playing the TP. For them it is fun and they enjoy it. They are not gunning for *you* as player but rather see the TP as the same sort of player competition that one might find in PvP. However, I doubt most flippers - successful ones anyway - are feverishly changing buy/sell orders every ten minutes; they'd just lose too much money, so it really does sound like that you're going for items that are low supply and in high demand.

 

 

[Bollocks.4078]

Here's why this is a problem: when someone outbids a buy or sell order on a high price item by 1 copper they are effectively butting in line. The new offer is essentially the same price but now the new bid is first in line. If someone wants to outbid the existing buy or sell offer it makes perfect sense that they should have to change the bid amount by enough to make it essentially a new offer, not the same offer.

 

This is in no way at all about being outbid or about being impatient. Why does the first bidder have to be patient and wait but the penny increment bidder doesn't? If the next bidder wants to buy or sell for the same price then they should bid the same price and take their place in line behind other bids of the same price, not be able to butt in line.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

5% on a 2500 gold legendary is quite a lot.

 

/notsigned