Power vs Condi effectiveness is now balanced

[subversiontwo.7501]

As often seen on these forums I see alot of people talking in absolutes.

 

There is certainly the element of how scale affects conditions and there's perspectives on pure builds and hybrids. When it comes to larger scale however most hybrids are generally referred to as condi for the simple reason of what defines the pressure and what defines the killing power. In a power meta there are still conditions that asserts control and chips away while power assures the kill. In a condi meta its the opposite and why you often see hybrids.

 

Condition damage as killing power is also as simple as how the basics of condition damage works. As long as you can cleanse it, it is only pressure. When it overwhelms your cleanses (and resistance management) you run out of counters. That works the same at all scales even if the nature of AoE cleansing keeps it in check from scaling out of control at larger scales. However, there have certainly been condi metas even at the largest scale. The epidemic meta proved its impact when overwhelming conditions could be AoE spread and the early months of PoF with the overabundance of corruptions also showed what can happen when conditions outpace the +/-.

 

At the same time, when those things happens it also goes to show why condition damage is not good as a norm or meta and why it should serve as an alternative, since its far less fun when gameplay revolves around stacking critical mass and seeing things fall apart. That also ties into the other basic aspect of conditions: They keep ticking even when you can't do damage so you can't really outrun or back out of them once applied. The feeling of knowing that you are going to drop before you do is quite boring and has a negative impact on gameplay. So again, condi works very well as an alternative or niche but there has always been problems when it has been better and become norm.

 

Even before the patch condition plays (or hybrid) was a functional alternative at mid-to-mid scale and used even up to mid-to-large scale. The case for how effective conditions relies on poor cleansing can be turned on its head and be seen as good cleansing also often meeting poor application and pressure-to-burst management at larger scale. So while I don't disagree with eg., Threater's example, of a meta squad, there's also another story of you have a damage team full of a bunch of Exys, for example. There are obvious differences as you scale up from 5 to 15 to 30 to 50 but they are also not always so wildly different as people suspect. There are plenty of good smaller scale practises that can be scaled up to a 50-man setting that people have a tendency to brush away because it is uncommon to see execution on the necessary level at that scale or within that setting.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> Like I said. There are exceptions to how it should be.

> Yet Condi damage has more counters than power damage:

>

> Counters to power:

> 1. Evade

> 2. Block

>

> Counters to Condi:

> 1. Evade the application

> 2. Block the application

> 3. Resistance

> 4. Active Condi cleanses

> 5. Passive condicleanses

>

> Even if you put active and passive Condi cleanses together into one point, that's still double the amount of counters.

Did you forgot about half the game?

 

Further counters to power:

- Protection

- Passive invoulnerability

- Active invoulnerability

- Passive damage reduction (traits, signets)

- Toughness

- Barrier (+condi)

- Reflect (+condi)

 

And the best counter to power... *go out of range*.

 

But it really doesnt matter. We are all perfectly aware that there are some egregious outliers in the condi department - the **exact same** builds and classes that existed before the patch but that power users mostly ignored because their own builds roflstomped.

 

But if they cant do it anymore, no one should do it. Because of course.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> Was roaming last night on T3 NA and started fighting a BOZ mesmer and was then plus one'd by a condi bunker Firebrand. I Managed a last ditch Eviscerate to down the mesmer, but with my condi defense on cool-down this happened. It was literally like getting stomped by a Warclaw in slow motion.

>

>

>

> This is the highest amount of condition damage I have ever been hit with in that short amount of time in the years that I have been playing this game.

>

> 35,086 condition damage in a few seconds.

>

> I was not really paying attention to the numbers until I glanced at them afterwards, I have never hit even close to those numbers with condi Berserker even with might stacking.

>

> I am seeing more and more condition bunkers, my first 8 fights were all against condition builds.

>

>

 

There in lies the joke, being that the class that is doing this ridiculous condi burst is also has the most broken OP sustain along with necro to go along with that burst lol.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

>

> And that's where you're completely wrong in my opinion.

> Condition builds also rely on at least 3 stats, them being Condi dmg, vitality, armor (well there's some exceptions).

>

> So why do I state this?

> First off, a lot of people say, that power damage can be completely negated by dodging the skill thrown at you.

> But they seem to keep forgetting, that this applies to a Condi build as well. Dodge the skill that applies condis and you won't get damage!

>

> Also why do condition builds need at least 3 stats. Being vitality, toughness and condition damage (in some cases even healing power but let's exclude that)

> Condition builds need those defensive stats to get their damage off. You can see that you won't win many duels if you only get this condition damage stat up. Cause condis take their time to do damage, so you gotta stall your opponent.

>

> Let's get to the exceptions. While some Condi builds aren't that oppressive, because they don't have insane Condi burst, there's definetly some exceptions.

> Being Condi rev, Condi guard, (thief), ele, (maybe need to add engi as well, but I first have to test this super aids Condi build myself before I can tell).

>

> Why are those exceptions? Because they all have Condi burst, not slow ramping up condis that don't tick very high.

> Fighting against those classes is like: oh you ate one Condi Spike? Then you're dead with the next 3 ticks.

> And that's the real issue here. Condis on some classes aren't that ramping up damage, that you have to stall the game for.

 

The problem is, with condi its not as simple as "just dodge the skill that applies condi". Because condi is applied either by *instant* skills (which you cant dodge), or on X procs which dont get consumed if you dodge, so they can just keep chucking X at you (usually X is any attack) and once youre hit, you get a ton of condis. Thats the problem.

 

Condition builds dont need Vitality or Toughness. No instead the fact that they can build both of those without giving up any damage is a large part of why condi is so overperforming. Power has to give up damage to build either, let alone both.

 

Uh, all condi builds that are any good spike. Ramping up damage doesnt make sense because you can always just throw all your condi at them at once.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

>

> I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

>

> Hint: It won't be long.

>

> Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

>

> The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

 

I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

[Groutowicz.2984]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> >

> > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> >

> > Hint: It won't be long.

> >

> > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> >

> > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

>

> I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

 

Thank you for being one of the only ones here with common sense. God blessed you with a brain.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> >

> > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> >

> > Hint: It won't be long.

> >

> > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> >

> > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

>

> I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

Wait why are people even running marauders? Dps dont need vitality.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> > >

> > > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> > >

> > > Hint: It won't be long.

> > >

> > > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> > >

> > > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

> >

> > I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

> Wait why are people even running marauders? Dps dont need vitality.

>

 

I’m actually thinking of mixing some more assassin stats :/ on my rev shiro build

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> > >

> > > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> > >

> > > Hint: It won't be long.

> > >

> > > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> > >

> > > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

> >

> > I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

> Wait why are people even running marauders? Dps dont need vitality.

>

 

In PvP, you very much so do need vitality. Berserkers is too squishy. There is the toughness alternative, but its not viable in a condi meta like the one we have rn.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> >

> > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> >

> > Hint: It won't be long.

> >

> > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> >

> > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

>

> I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

 

That's why everyone is using Carrion, right?

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> > >

> > > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> > >

> > > Hint: It won't be long.

> > >

> > > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> > >

> > > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

> >

> > I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

>

> That's why everyone is using Carrion, right?

 

I mean, yeah, condi builds *are* using Carrion. Not in WvW because Trailblazer exists and condi damage is the only stat that really matters for condi builds, but still.

[Shroud.2307]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> > > >

> > > > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> > > >

> > > > Hint: It won't be long.

> > > >

> > > > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> > > >

> > > > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

> > >

> > > I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

> >

> > That's why everyone is using Carrion, right?

>

> I mean, yeah, condi builds *are* using Carrion. Not in WvW because Trailblazer exists and condi damage is the only stat that really matters for condi builds, but still.

 

And condi damage only matters because why? You're almost there.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > > > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hint: It won't be long.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> > > > >

> > > > > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

> > > >

> > > > I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

> > >

> > > That's why everyone is using Carrion, right?

> >

> > I mean, yeah, condi builds *are* using Carrion. Not in WvW because Trailblazer exists and condi damage is the only stat that really matters for condi builds, but still.

>

> And condi damage only matters because why? You're almost there.

 

Because it wasnt nerfed nearly as hard as power was and also has a number of upsides in particularly a *drastically* higher damage potential if the enemy runs out of cleanses? I imagine youre trying to go for something, but its clearly a stretch.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> > > >

> > > > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> > > >

> > > > Hint: It won't be long.

> > > >

> > > > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> > > >

> > > > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

> > >

> > > I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

> > Wait why are people even running marauders? Dps dont need vitality.

> >

>

> In PvP, you very much so do need vitality. Berserkers is too squishy. There is the toughness alternative, but its not viable in a condi meta like the one we have rn.

But you argued that condition builds need neither toughness or vitality.

 

Why does power builds need it?

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > > > > @"Groutowicz.2984" said:

> > > > > > Guild Wars 2 has always been Build Wars 2. In order to play power builds effectively, you need Power, Precision, and ferocity. You sacrifice survivability ( toughness, vitality, healing power) in order to do damage. Furthermore, you only do damage when you successfully hit your target, damage upon landing a skill. There are a few exceptions being ranger war horn 4 and guardian focus 4(?) being that it does multiple hits after the first one landing. Now If we take a look at how condition damage works, their damage relies on 1 stat. Condition Damage. Their is expertise, however that effects longevity. Now in order to do damage, they rely on 1 stat, where power relies on 3. Leaving them able to stack toughness and vitality. Leaving them as a full tank, dealing big damage over time. So to answer your question, condition damage has been unbalanced, and is even more unbalanced due to damage being lowered, thus meaning your 3200 armor condition build, takes even less damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would love to see a stat like +Condition Damage +Expertise with no other added stats. Let's see how long anything playing that survives against a Power build.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hint: It won't be long.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cleanses are aplenty in WvW as are damage buffers. A Condition build needs defensive stats to survive long enough to apply lethal damage where as a Power build can do so instantly.

> > > > >

> > > > > The stats are not the problem, classes with too much synergy and access to rapid Condition application are. Apply X Condition also triggers application of Y Condition, press this button to apply X, Y and Z. That is the problem.

> > > >

> > > > I mean noone is using Berserkers either, its all Marauder. Now, a build like condition damage, expertise and 500 vitality? Yeah that would survive just as well as Marauder builds do, while also doing more damage. Yeah.

> > > Wait why are people even running marauders? Dps dont need vitality.

> > >

> >

> > In PvP, you very much so do need vitality. Berserkers is too squishy. There is the toughness alternative, but its not viable in a condi meta like the one we have rn.

> But you argued that condition builds need neither toughness or vitality.

>

> Why does power builds need it?

 

No I didnt. I said that they dont need *both* vitality and toughness. The fact that they can get them both without losing damage is what breaks it. Power has to give up a lot to get either, let alone both.

[Gorani.7205]

Only a limited, personal WvW view from me:

I think that Condi has the upper hand again in roaming situations (max. 3v3 scenarios) or "duelling" situations.