How to fix the new player experience.

[Hypnowulf.7403]

I think it's time to remove levels. All I ask is that you hear me out.

 

I feel that Guild Wars 2 is a game whose design is focused around the concept of freedom of play and enjoying a lot of alt characters. The least fun thing in any MMORPG is grinding up a new character from the beginning, which is why a lot of new players will either bounce off of the game or get a level 80 boost and stick with only a handful of characters. This limits the majority of players from doing what they'll want to do—making alts.

 

Yes, there is a kind of player who prefers sticking with a character and grinding excessively but I feel that kind of person isn't served well by Guild Wars 2. Heart of Thorns was an attempt to appeal to them at the expense of other demographics and that didn't work out too well, did it? Path of Fire was a response to how poorly that went, because as I recall it lead to cash shop purchases drying up and ArenaNet finding themselves in a bit of a sustainability pickle. The people who want that are better served by World of Warcraft, League of Legends, Fortnite, or other online games which are far more efficiently functional as operant conditioning chambers. There are those who want operant conditioning chambers and those who don't.

 

I think Guild Wars 2 has attracted a large playerbase of those who don't.

 

So how would what I'm planning work? Every new player would be effectively level 80. The scaling system is already present within the game, after all! ArenaNet wouldn't need to do anything other than make players level 80 out the gate because the game already scales to level 80. I think some minor tinkering would need to be done, perhaps some alteration of resource nodes but that wouldn't be difficult versus the payoff of sustainability. A lot of new players would stick around if they didn't have to keep grinding up new characters. There's a reason why Tamriel Unlimited was such a resounding success in The Elder Scrolls Online, but I don't think that ESO did it the right way. I think there's a better way.

 

Guild Wars 2 already has that better way on tap, and I feel that potential could be tapped for its potential and maximised. Masteries and achievements. This was such a clever idea! Whomever it was at ArenaNet that came up with this idea as it is now deserves a promotion. The reason this works is because a.) it's focused on mobility through new content and b.) sidegrades that are fun without limiting existing characters. It's bloody clever. It's so attuned to how Guild Wars 2 players work, that once you've done it on one character you have it on all of your characters, so you can then create new characters and take them through this content however you want.

 

There would need to be a few more tweaks to really make this work, too. Off the top of my head I can think of:

 

* Birthday presents need to be based upon the account age rather than the character's age and the rewards rebalanced with that in mind (perhaps having it be claimable only on one character);

* Resource nodes would need to be reworked so that they'll offer rewards which are relevant to players who're effectively level 80;

* Loot tables would need to be rebalanced to be suitable to level 80 (this isn't as difficult as it sounds);

* Zones need to become unlocked across all characters once one character has done the story that unlocks that zone, this needs to happen in a way that doesn't prevent new characters from playing the story but does allow for mobility through the zones (sort of like how Path of Fire is setup).

 

I think that's all that really needs to be done. With that you can make all new characters level 80 effectively and just remove the level number. The grinds that they'll experience will be for achievements and masteries rather than the slog of a grind to level 80, which is the worst and least palatable grind in the game. This way the player can choose which content they wish to experience. If they want to go to the Elonian Desert from the outset they can, but they could also still play the old world content as well whenever they choose. The game is already setup to accommodate this, this final step just needs to be taken to fully execute this vision.

 

Yes, earlier zones will be a little easier with this change but that's not a bad thing! I mean, this will give players the space they need to learn how to play their class. It would also make elite specialisations more interesting because the base class would be unlocked fully by default, allowing for further horizontal progression into elite specs. I feel that this would open the door to ArenaNet selling elite specialisations as I believe htat's a completely fair way to profit. I understand that currently ArenaNet may be too small to do expansions in the future but that doesn't mean that elite specialisations need to go away. What can happen instead is that elite specs can become a cash shop item which unlock for all characters once purchased, though they still need to be progressed through in the regular way.

 

As it is now I don't believe that Guild Wars 2 is very welcoming to new players or players who enjoy creating alts. That's problematic. It's problematic because Guild Wars 2 really needs to attract new players and show them that it caters to demographics that no other MMORPG does, it's also problematic because one of the biggest demographics in Guild Wars 2 is casual gamers and roleplayers who love creating new alts. This, I think, is a necessary step forward in the evolution of the game. It would bring Guild Wars 2 more in line with ESO and show that it can adapt to fit contemporary audiences.

 

Guild Wars 2 has never had the WoW-ish operant conditioning chamber audience, which I feel was powerfully evidenced by the abject failure of Heart of Thorns, so ArenaNet needs to think about how sustainability can work going forward. I think for the future health of the game this is the right choice to make. Guild Wars 2 doesn't need levels. It'd be the bold choice it could make to stand out, even above and ahead of The Elder Scrolls Online. ESO has already largely made levels pointless but they haven't been brave enough yet to completely remove the concept of levels. I think that if ArenaNet were to beat them to the punch, that'd be a very positive shot in the arm for Guild Wars 2's player count, profitability, and long-term sustainability.

[Etria.3642]

Why would the nodes need to be changed? Why would zones change? Map completion is a thing, you know? The lower mats are already way more pricey than the higher ones--this is a good thing, it gives new players and leveling alts a nice source of income. Also, GW2 is very alt-friendly. You don't have to unlock dyes, mounts, outfits on that toon. They come with a waypoint in each starting area, so even if you make all Norn alts, you can start in different areas, and get different quests. They share a bank, and taking the time to level helps you learn some skills, at least.

 

I may be biased because I played ESO at the beginning, took a character allll the way through, went to make an alt and was devastated that everything was the exact same, even though the class and race and starting area was different. Even the quests were exactly the same. I never touched it again, and canceled my subscription. Oh, yes, GW2 is sustaining itself /without/ a subscription, btw. Please do NOT turn GW2 into these other games. If I wanted to play those other games, that is where I would be.

 

I think the only point I rather like is not moving birthday gifts to account, but the ONETIME achievements for years to account. Mine is only three years old, I haven't deleted my first character, but I heartily dislike her, and wish I could delete, but it would be foolish to do so. Yes, I have already gotten extra character slots, but it just seems silly to have a character I loathe just sitting there serving as a storage bunker. Incidentally, birthdays are alt-friendly. You get more of them with more alts.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

Actually you are wrong op, I and quite a few players I know have 1 main only and a couple alts to farm keys (in my case). GW2 is a brilliant game for single main players because the content is so rich, and when you take a break that main doesn't fall behind the gear power curve aka vertical.

 

For new players, they are entitled to go through that levelling experience we all enjoyed when we played for the first time. Then like us they can play game and use the boost rewards for alts as needed. Think of it another way, the standard advice for new players is enjoy the journey and don't boost as you will miss hundreds of hours of gameplay.

 

So this is really about alts. A better argument would be more easier access to boosts, personally i could boost loads of alts with the stuff in my bank. But I get a new level 80 would not.

[notebene.3190]

I may be the only person, and if so, I concede, but I have various alts (9 serious ones, one for each class, and some extra duplicate classes of other races I fool with from time to time), and I actually enjoy the 1-80 path the most, including the full old world completion. I still have 2 insta-80 devices, and will never use them.

 

If I'm in the minority and the majority favors your approach, then of course, I concede, but I'd be sad to see that sort of progression go. I suppose if there was some way to track the progress as if I was leveling, like an 'old world completion experience bar' where I could see the number of areas completed (that would be my levels), and a percentage complete for the current area I'm in, that would mimic levels and work for me.

 

Maybe sad, but I like progress bars. :3

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I think some of your 'facts' are misinformed.

Heart of Thorns was not an abject failure. There are just as many Devs at ArenaNet now as there were before Heart of Thorns. Leveling isn't a 'slog', and I've not seen many, if any, posts from new players stating it is.

 

Birthday Gifts for only 1 character? Yeah, that will go over well.

 

You want to sell the Elite Specializations that come free with expansion purchase? Again, I don't see that being very popular.

 

I'd like to see the data that confirms new players don't make alts.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

It it was an option i wouldnt have a problem .

Or if you could get a 80 lvl character , that unlocked 1 random trait or spell every 15 min , or if you did 3 objectives to fasten it up , or explore the whole map for random 5 spells .

The first 4 maps would be used to unlock the spells , and if you get 100% world explored ( with10 days cd) you get 350 gems or random set you havent unloced

[battledrone.8315]

good luck with that one OP, youre gonna need it. unless your pony up the funds for a new game yourself, that aint gonna happen

[vesica tempestas.1563]

The issue is not new players, or 1 char players, its actually the pain for an altoholic who doesn't want to level (fair enough) . Making level boosts to 80 cheap is an answer, (say 50 gems)

 

Should change the thread title to be 'how to fix the alt experience'

[Gehenna.3625]

They already sort of removed levels by giving us knowledge tomes and birthday presents, but I do get what you mean. Even when the game was just out I was bored to tears with leveling to 80. It's one of the worst leveling experiences I've had in any game I played. There are two main issues I see with leveling in GW2.

 

First of all they should still have made the first 10-20 levels at least go faster. Because it's slowish right from the start it doesn't have the momentum you're used to and there's a LOT of levels still to do after. That means there's a drag that sets in much earlier that in other MMOs I usually experience around level 40-ish.

 

Secondly, I hate levels for the sake of levels. To me gaining levels should mean something more than just another level but rather the feeling that you can do something new or add something significant. In GW2 they have enough character development for 30-35 levels tops but spread it out over 80 levels. That means 45 levels just for the sake of adding levels and that's just boring. So the game still has that slump around level 35 and then it's a drag till 80.

 

I just made some characters, quit for a few years and then had b-day presents and tomes that I could use on new characters. I never level a toon anymore through gameplay. I just made a character last week. Insta-60 with a b-day level boost and 20 tomes and done. Well it's annoying still cause you have to do each level individually still and get a bunch of rewards that are useless and can't be vendored so you have to destroy those things and it's annoying but still better than going through the levels.

 

I do not think it's a good idea to take things away from players. So if people want to level through the whole thing, let them. And the map completion is something I do enjoy doing so I don't want to miss out on that.

 

Also for new players I get the annoyance of the leveling process as I experienced it also that way but at the same time if you let people skip it for a new player then there is a learning phase that you also skip and that's not necessarily good. So I'm a bit on the fence on letting new players go to 80 instantly. I think it would be better if they simply give people an item they can equip like an amulet that gives extra xp so the leveling goes a lot faster. That way people have the choice to use it or not.

 

A QoL improvement I wouldn't mind is if B-day present level boosts applied those levels instantly bypassing having to accept each level one by one and just taking out the useless rewards up to maybe level 60.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> I think some of your 'facts' are misinformed.

> Heart of Thorns was not an abject failure. There are just as many Devs at ArenaNet now as there were before Heart of Thorns. Leveling isn't a 'slog', and I've not seen many, if any, posts from new players stating it is.

>

> Birthday Gifts for only 1 character? Yeah, that will go over well.

>

> You want to sell the Elite Specializations that come free with expansion purchase? Again, I don't see that being very popular.

>

> I'd like to see the data that confirms new players don't make alts.

 

if hot did so well, they would prolly had made more like that. it was the worst maps i have ever played in my 18y of mmo gaming.

and that was even AFTER the nerfs. didnt take long before i quit the story, and i suffered through several metas to unlock gliding.

it had ONE good thing, the guitar playing frog...GG anet

 

[XatraZaytrax.2601]

Wow! So you don't want to actually play this game. You don't want to level, you don't want to do story, you don't want to clear maps, and you want to punish players who have dedicated years to this game because blah, blah, don't really understand your reasoning why it matters when you get a b-day gift. But effectively you would take multiple gifts from everyone. Why are you even trying this game.

 

If you don't like your first character, do a total make over. My norn has had at least three gender changes and five makeovers before she felt right. Unless it's the race you don't like, but ....

 

I personally like getting gifts for each of them on the b-days. I spent a lot of time with them and remember their journeys. If you have siblings how would you like it if your parents decided to only get one gift for the whole family to share on your parents anniversary? To me that was the effective date of their account opening.

 

The alt argument is specious. You have ways of boosting new toons to level 80. With the boosts in my account now I could make more than 20 level 80s today. Yet when I made my thief a week ago, she was made to go through the same paces as all the others to create her history.

 

Honestly, if I didn't have other game goals she would be level 80 by now the natural way. All of my toons, except her have 100 percent map completion, even the new maps and I have done one character through it all in two weeks.

 

New players these days get a lot of perks we didn't get and don't need any more hand holding. Why can't they be expected to put forth at least a little effort to learn this game, learn their classes, earn their gear.

[Cuks.8241]

I disagree with pretty much the whole op post. There were plenty of counter arguments already in the thread so no need to repeat.

Would add another one. New accounts get 2 lvl 80 boosts. In addition we are flooded with Tomes of knowledge and other minor xp tomes. Basically you don't really need to repeat the lvling process if you don't want to. But some of us enjoy lvling of alts. I always go through the lvling process on a new alt and if some lvls become tedious I just skip a few with tomes which I have hundreds in my bank.

Also Hot was not a failure. Actually many polls over the years on this forum showed the exact opposite; that Hot is actually still very much popular and for many of us the best content in the game. Constant population of the maps and meta events which are still very popular if not the most popular also show that.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > I think some of your 'facts' are misinformed.

> > Heart of Thorns was not an abject failure. There are just as many Devs at ArenaNet now as there were before Heart of Thorns. Leveling isn't a 'slog', and I've not seen many, if any, posts from new players stating it is.

> >

> > Birthday Gifts for only 1 character? Yeah, that will go over well.

> >

> > You want to sell the Elite Specializations that come free with expansion purchase? Again, I don't see that being very popular.

> >

> > I'd like to see the data that confirms new players don't make alts.

>

> if hot did so well, they would prolly had made more like that. it was the worst maps i have ever played in my 18y of mmo gaming.

> and that was even AFTER the nerfs. didnt take long before i quit the story, and i suffered through several metas to unlock gliding.

> it had ONE good thing, the guitar playing frog...GG anet

>

 

Interesting, I think hot maps are the best mmo maps I've played in 40 years, it's horses for courses however. If hot done so badly they would not have invested in another expansion, but they did, except pof was a flat map structure totally unlike hot, no expansion to be seen since then.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > I think some of your 'facts' are misinformed.

> > Heart of Thorns was not an abject failure. There are just as many Devs at ArenaNet now as there were before Heart of Thorns. Leveling isn't a 'slog', and I've not seen many, if any, posts from new players stating it is.

> >

> > Birthday Gifts for only 1 character? Yeah, that will go over well.

> >

> > You want to sell the Elite Specializations that come free with expansion purchase? Again, I don't see that being very popular.

> >

> > I'd like to see the data that confirms new players don't make alts.

>

> if hot did so well, they would prolly had made more like that. it was the worst maps i have ever played in my 18y of mmo gaming.

> and that was even AFTER the nerfs. didnt take long before i quit the story, and i suffered through several metas to unlock gliding.

> it had ONE good thing, the guitar playing frog...GG anet

>

 

They have made more maps with elements from HoT though, so it couldn't be as bad as you say it was, and both statements are actually opinions, both valid. My opinion is I liked those maps, were they challenging to navigate? I don't think so, but then I'm a person that can find someplace I've never been without a map, so for me it wouldn't be...for others it might be, it's a mix, just like everything else is in this game.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Pretty sure stating that HoT was not an abject failure is not opinion, but fact. If it had been an abject failure, there would have been no sales (even those that bought it would have gotten a refund) and ArenaNet would not have had much revenue for that quarter and the following one.

 

Saying it wasn't an abject failure isn't stating it was a roaring success (which might be considered opinion).

[Dante.1508]

Remove the Meta events and the over hard expansions and the game would shine for new players..

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> Remove the Meta and the over hard expansions and the game would shine for new players..

 

You can't "remove the meta". And the expansions aren't hard.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > I think some of your 'facts' are misinformed.

> > > Heart of Thorns was not an abject failure. There are just as many Devs at ArenaNet now as there were before Heart of Thorns. Leveling isn't a 'slog', and I've not seen many, if any, posts from new players stating it is.

> > >

> > > Birthday Gifts for only 1 character? Yeah, that will go over well.

> > >

> > > You want to sell the Elite Specializations that come free with expansion purchase? Again, I don't see that being very popular.

> > >

> > > I'd like to see the data that confirms new players don't make alts.

> >

> > if hot did so well, they would prolly had made more like that. it was the worst maps i have ever played in my 18y of mmo gaming.

> > and that was even AFTER the nerfs. didnt take long before i quit the story, and i suffered through several metas to unlock gliding.

> > it had ONE good thing, the guitar playing frog...GG anet

> >

>

> Interesting, I think hot maps are the best mmo maps I've played in 40 years, it's horses for courses however. If hot done so badly they would not have invested in another expansion, but they did, except pof was a flat map structure totally unlike hot, no expansion to be seen since then.

 

the alternative would had been, to just let the game die. and if hot was so popular, then it would be stupid not to include its strengths, yes?

pof at least had some playable parts in it, too bad they made it so annoying to be there.

given how difficult it is to find paying customers, im still baffled by their desire to get rid of them

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > I think some of your 'facts' are misinformed.

> > > Heart of Thorns was not an abject failure. There are just as many Devs at ArenaNet now as there were before Heart of Thorns. Leveling isn't a 'slog', and I've not seen many, if any, posts from new players stating it is.

> > >

> > > Birthday Gifts for only 1 character? Yeah, that will go over well.

> > >

> > > You want to sell the Elite Specializations that come free with expansion purchase? Again, I don't see that being very popular.

> > >

> > > I'd like to see the data that confirms new players don't make alts.

> >

> > if hot did so well, they would prolly had made more like that. it was the worst maps i have ever played in my 18y of mmo gaming.

> > and that was even AFTER the nerfs. didnt take long before i quit the story, and i suffered through several metas to unlock gliding.

> > it had ONE good thing, the guitar playing frog...GG anet

> >

>

> They have made more maps with elements from HoT though, so it couldn't be as bad as you say it was, and both statements are actually opinions, both valid. My opinion is I liked those maps, were they challenging to navigate? I don't think so, but then I'm a person that can find someplace I've never been without a map, so for me it wouldn't be...for others it might be, it's a mix, just like everything else is in this game.

 

opinion is one thing, look at the drop in income after hot. that is NOT normal for a popular game with its first expansion.

hot almost felt like a different game, and that made a lot of players angry

except those, that didnt like the core game in the first place

[sevenDEADLY.5281]

TLDR: I don't like something, so no one must like it.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > Remove the Meta and the over hard expansions and the game would shine for new players..

>

> You can't "remove the meta". And the expansions aren't hard.

 

why could i complete the core game, but not the expansions, then? if they arent hard, then you should see millions of players there

and here is the next problem : people are expecting a new expansion now, BUT...

1: what should they put in it? given the backlash from the first attempts, they have very few choices left

2: who is gonna buy it? is there anyone left, that they havent disappointed yet?

i dont know what theyre working on, but i feel that GW2 isnt the top priority

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> opinion is one thing, look at the drop in income after hot. that is NOT normal for a popular game with its first expansion.

 

It is normal when said game goes free to play with the release of the expansion. A core game that was actually selling at the time. Even NCSoft at the time said that conversions are low, meaning free to play players turning into paying customers. You see up to the release of HOT anyone that wanted to try the game had to pay for it. After HOT they could try it for free, and IF the core game managed to grab them, they'd buy the expansion. But that was confirmed by NCSoft that it didn't happen, it's not the fault of the expansion.

 

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> if they arent hard, then you should see millions of players there

 

The vast majority of this game's accounts haven't reached any of the two expansions, is that the fault of the expansions? No, it's the fault of the core game for not grabbing the attention of those players long enough so they can buy the expansions. The reason you don't see millions of players playing the expansions, is because the core game didn't manage to meet expectations for those players to buy the expansions. Since you talked about the drop in income after HOT, watch the drop in income after... release.

 

They are doing some effort now, some many years later, to improve the starting experience, maybe it will work out and free players will start converting.

 

tl;dr Don't blame the expansions, the core game is what is lacking. It might've been good on release, but 8 years later it shows its age.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> As it is now I don't believe that Guild Wars 2 is very welcoming to new players or players who enjoy creating alts.

 

Guild Wars 2 is probably one of the most alt-friendly mmorpgs out there...

There are experience scrolls that can instantly get you to level 20 or level 30, there are tomes of knowledge to boost the level of alts and the personal story gives tons of experience. If talking about alts, you have loads of ways to get them to level 80 very quickly.

 

> because the base class would be unlocked fully by default

 

No no no and no. Giving players access to everything by default is a terrible idea. Players are already struggling with knowing how to play their chosen profession, and they get everything in breadcrumbs, imagine having access to everything at once.

 

> If they want to go to the Elonian Desert from the outset they can, but they could also still play the old world content as well whenever they choose.

 

Yes and then spam the forums about how hard the game is, even though they skipped all of the content between the tutorial and the expansion. No thanks

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said:

> TLDR: I don't like something, so no one must like it.

 

Bingo.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

Re hot, anet can take 2 approaches 1). Every zone is the same as the most popular zone at a given time or 2) offer variety of gameplay styles.

 

Now looking at a new player obviously looking at a game that offers variety is going to be more appealing. Furthermore its the journey through the zones and stories where you learn your profession and also get context to the world - otherwise its just pixels. In hots case new players know that at some point in the journey they are going to enter multilayered jungles that is more dangerous but you can take advantage of flying, thats interesting.

 

The players that struggle with hot are those that skip to the last chapter of the book to get to the well known dramatic ending, but are disappointed because they have no emotional attachment to anything, or worse just don't get it, It's just an abstract event. That's why the journey is important for a new players first char - they read the book.