State Of Game Balance 3/5/20 - Let's Talk 2v2s & Conquest - Edited

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> After the hotfix today, is anyone else noticing that builds rocking 80% uptime of CC are just, really making the game feel clunky?

>

> I mean the combat is losing its fluid feel. I think it may have been a mistake to remove so many stun breaks and stab uptime.

>

> From what I seen tonight, the meta seems to now be shifting into mass CC spam builds, at least in 2v2s. This is not carrying a good flavor.

 

That was my biggest complaint with 2v2 right off the bat, with the nerfs to stab uptime, getting ping ponged to death became a thing.

[Sunshine.5014]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> After the hotfix today, is anyone else noticing that builds rocking 80% uptime of CC are just, really making the game feel clunky?

>

> I mean the combat is losing its fluid feel. I think it may have been a mistake to remove so many stun breaks and stab uptime.

>

> From what I've seen tonight, the meta seems to now be shifting into mass CC spam builds, at least in 2v2s. This is not carrying a good flavor.

 

Warrior has crazy hard CC uptime now. SB also has crazy damage. It's not as bad as the Necro/FB meta, but it's still overtuned.

 

CC Warrior is the new meta.

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Sunshine.5014" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > After the hotfix today, is anyone else noticing that builds rocking 80% uptime of CC are just, really making the game feel clunky?

> >

> > I mean the combat is losing its fluid feel. I think it may have been a mistake to remove so many stun breaks and stab uptime.

> >

> > From what I've seen tonight, the meta seems to now be shifting into mass CC spam builds, at least in 2v2s. This is not carrying a good flavor.

>

> Warrior has crazy hard CC uptime now. SB also has crazy damage. It's not as bad as the Necro/FB meta, but it's still overtuned.

>

> CC Warrior is the new meta.

 

You have no idea what you’re talking about. You’ll do well to can it.

[Shao.7236]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> After the hotfix today, is anyone else noticing that builds rocking 80% uptime of CC are just, really making the game feel clunky?

>

> I mean the combat is losing its fluid feel. I think it may have been a mistake to remove so many stun breaks and stab uptime.

>

> From what I've seen tonight, the meta seems to now be shifting into mass CC spam builds, at least in 2v2s. This is not carrying a good flavor.

 

There's a lot of falling back and forth in the game now to properly utilize potential. CC spam hasn't been too apparent to me, probably because I have a lot of stability on demand in and out, seems like it's a good thing if CC spam doesn't do damage then because it means waiting to stunbreak at key moments is the way to go. I would say the gameplay is slow but really, is it that bad when we don't have all the spam of everything else anymore? Personally I like where this is headed right now, I still miss damage on CC but the fact that I am able to run ANYTHING I want right now as a Revenant shows the shift in gameplay.

[Luthan.5236]

The thing about "2 vs 2 balance" vs. "conquest balane" is that for 2 vs. 2 you 'd want the classes to be a bit more balanced towards 1 vs. 1 or 1 vs. 2 fights. In case the team member is bad or the team composition (enemy classes/builds are countering you and you haven't played all other classes to just switch to another class before match starts) is bad it could get worse ... the more the class is designed to especially work together in teams and certain situations.

 

Now in 5 vs. 5 I'd want to prefer such balancing. Random queuing (you can do max with one other player) might give not the desired results. But I have seen a few matches (though I'm playing only in the lower league tiers might be different at the top) where actually the match turned around and it felt like the own team got used to the enemy ... and also to each other.

 

For the maps in 2 vs. 2 I noticed the difference when I found certain maps "easier" with my necro than with my engineer. (I play necro, engineer and ranger.) The smaller area in Hall of the Mists is nice as Necro when you can fear them a lot in the corner/wall. If I decide to run a lot around myself I prefer Auric Basin.

 

5 vs. 5 is fine for me. Random ... sometimes good team compositon. Sometimes bad. (+ the fact that sometimes the enemy are more skilled at the fighting or at strategy)

 

I also have to admit that I like Spirit Watch a lot since I played it a few times in unranked now (since conquest is only in unranked). Similar thoughts as above when I compared conquest to the 2-man-team-deathmach. Here just even more the team composition and team play is important. (I geuss that is why people did not want it in ranked where random teams and only duo queue is allowed.) I like maps and game modes where you need a lof teamplay and need to be good ad "reading the situaton". I'm more of that type of player while most that prefer 2 vs. 2 like to just train and hone their "pure fighting" skills.

[otto.5684]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Hotfix today -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latest

>

> Whether anyone agrees or not with what happened, it was paid attention to.

>

> That's all we wanted to see.

>

> ~ Thanks

 

These.. do not matter. The balance is so fucked. Unless there is a major redesign (again), sPvP will remain shit.

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

You are over hyping the power of these three specs because of their dominance of a game mode that heavily caters to their strength. FB, necro, condi rev have always been low mobility, close range, node fighters which is exactly what the 2v2 maps force especially Auric Span and Hall of the Mists. If they aren't heavily favored against mobile specs with potentially high range damage in a mode where everyone is forced into a tiny area then they are pretty much useless in every other scenario. It's like if we got a new game mode which is basically just a foot race obstacle course, thief completely dominates it because it completely plays to the class's strength where it actually is completely unrivaled. Do we then call for thief to be nerfed down to necro/guard/rev levels of mobility? No that would be stupid classes need to have strengths and weaknesses and sometimes when you introduce a new very simplistic game mode like 2v2 death match limited to 3 tiny maps it caters to certain strengths.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Sunshine.5014" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > After the hotfix today, is anyone else noticing that builds rocking 80% uptime of CC are just, really making the game feel clunky?

> >

> > I mean the combat is losing its fluid feel. I think it may have been a mistake to remove so many stun breaks and stab uptime.

> >

> > From what I've seen tonight, the meta seems to now be shifting into mass CC spam builds, at least in 2v2s. This is not carrying a good flavor.

>

> Warrior has crazy hard CC uptime now. SB also has crazy damage. It's not as bad as the Necro/FB meta, but it's still overtuned.

>

> CC Warrior is the new meta.

 

Cc warrior is in a ok spot but not great and certainly won't be meta defining in any way.

[JTGuevara.9018]

Yes on the CCs! Getting ping-ponged around even as SB ain't no fun!! Also, don't forget the instant 2-3 second rezzes that some classes are capable of that go off every time you down somebody. I go on matches, constantly down someone around 3-4 times PER ROUND only for them to be instantly up. It's just stupid!

 

That being said, yes! This update has been mostly positive! Let's hope more of these changes come on the 17th.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"avey.4201" said:

> This is the worst balance I've seen, DE, ranger, necro are capable of 1 shot, but DH can't return favor.

> Condi bunker was viable before patch, now there's no use trying to kill them.

> My suggestion, roll back patch, any evades not on dodge roll, replace with aegis, all invuln should be channeling invuln, add reveal for 2 seconds upon leaving stealth.

> Balance wasn't perfect before, but 100% better than this, nothing wrong with 1 shot when anyone can do it, but should never be able to 1 shot while hiding behind evade/invuln as they are not mechanically counter-able.

 

Wait, DE? *Necro*? How in the world are either of those oneshotting. DE wasnt even able to oneshot anything but the squishiest targets in WvW pre-patch, and sPvP drastically lowers your burst damage.

 

Uh, noone can oneshot while evading or invulnerable. Maybe Shatter Mirage, but I havent really seen any Shatter Mirages so far.

[avey.4201]

> Wait, DE? *Necro*? How in the world are either of those oneshotting. DE wasnt even able to oneshot anything but the squishiest targets in WvW pre-patch, and sPvP drastically lowers your burst damage.

>

> Uh, noone can oneshot while evading or invulnerable. Maybe Shatter Mirage, but I havent really seen any Shatter Mirages so far.

 

I've been oneshot by DE in wvw post patch, and prepatch besides mirage, ele could be invuln while throwing unblockable 1 shot, warrior could one shot while being invuln, ranger could too.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Keep in mind that people just love to refer to a combo of multiple attacks as "a one shot".

 

And then they complain in the forum about that "one shot" multi attack combo, as if a high risk high reward DPS build that landed a perfectly executed combo on you should somehow not be dealing damage while doing it.

[avey.4201]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Keep in mind that people just love to refer to a combo of multiple attacks as "a one shot".

>

> And then they complain in the forum about that "one shot" multi attack combo, as if a high risk high reward DPS build that landed a perfectly executed combo on you should somehow not be dealing damage while doing it.

 

No class uses 1 skill to kill, all use a combination of damage modifiers then use 1-2 hard hitting skills.

There is nothing wrong with oneshot builds as long as any class has the option.

[Eurantien.4632]

2v2 is exactly the type of thing needed to make healthier ATs. Some queuing and coming across someone else that's good and sticking together for some winstreaks makes me wanna take that person on a 5v5 adventure and see how they do.

 

I haven't felt that way since free tourneys existed.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"avey.4201" said:

> > Wait, DE? *Necro*? How in the world are either of those oneshotting. DE wasnt even able to oneshot anything but the squishiest targets in WvW pre-patch, and sPvP drastically lowers your burst damage.

> >

> > Uh, noone can oneshot while evading or invulnerable. Maybe Shatter Mirage, but I havent really seen any Shatter Mirages so far.

>

> I've been oneshot by DE in wvw post patch, and prepatch besides mirage, ele could be invuln while throwing unblockable 1 shot, warrior could one shot while being invuln, ranger could too.

 

Yeah unless that "oneshot" was preceded by 4 seconds of the DE throwing multiple skills at you to stack up his malice, Im gonna call shenanigans on "oneshot". Hell Im not even sure a fully stacked DJ can oneshot. Fully stacked MBS can, I guess, but that is basically undoable without skipping shortbow (and making yourself useless).

 

Ele could oneshot, but not while being invulnerable. It runs out just before the damage can come out. Warrior has no way of actually going invulnerable, he can only turn power damage to 0, but any condi damage still destroys him. Same with Rangers.

[anjo.6143]

> @"avey.4201" said:

> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > Keep in mind that people just love to refer to a combo of multiple attacks as "a one shot".

> >

> > And then they complain in the forum about that "one shot" multi attack combo, as if a high risk high reward DPS build that landed a perfectly executed combo on you should somehow not be dealing damage while doing it.

>

> No class uses 1 skill to kill, all use a combination of damage modifiers then use 1-2 hard hitting skills.

> There is nothing wrong with oneshot builds as long as any class has the option.

 

Totally agreed. There is no problem with basically anything, since everyone can use it and counter it.

 

That is the problem at moment, some classes can do high dmg, high burst, with also high HP, heals and/or defense and others cant.

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> 2v2 is exactly the type of thing needed to make healthier ATs. Some queuing and coming across someone else that's good and sticking together for some winstreaks makes me wanna take that person on a 5v5 adventure and see how they do.

>

> I haven't felt that way since free tourneys existed.

 

And here's the underlying issue, being good at 2v2 doesn't make you good at rotating properly. If anything it reinforces the "I will fight to the death" mentality.

[Exedore.6320]

> @"avey.4201" said:

> There is nothing wrong with oneshot builds as long as any class has the option.

There's a lot wrong with "one shots" taken in a general sense. It's not fun at all to be on the receiving end _if there's no realistic way to tell that it's coming and avoid it_. The "one shots" which people typically complain about happen from stealth, on a teleport from out of LOS, or use instant buffs.

 

 

[otto.5684]

State of sPvP?

 

Power dps mostly dead.

PvP is slooooooooooow.

The game name is stun wars.

Diversity is none existent, with even fewer builds dominating the scene.

 

From my main guardian, FB ended-up more over performing. Anet responded quickly (which was surprising). Core power was semi dead, now it is absolutely dead. DH LB medi trapper was getting there. Anet walked back every single buff during last year. And it was a few tweaks away from being competitive... nothing but FB is remotely viable.

 

You know... there is a reason why CMC team was reined in, in the past. I really which it stayed the same... cuz they ruined sPvP.

[avey.4201]

> @"Exedore.6320" said:

> > @"avey.4201" said:

> > There is nothing wrong with oneshot builds as long as any class has the option.

> There's a lot wrong with "one shots" taken in a general sense. It's not fun at all to be on the receiving end _if there's no realistic way to tell that it's coming and avoid it_. The "one shots" which people typically complain about happen from stealth, on a teleport from out of LOS, or use instant buffs.

>

>

DH one shot was blockable, dodgeable, had obvious signs(focus 5, trap drop animation, loud sound/flames from teleport), and could only oneshot full zerk players as full zerk.

Breaking target with stealth, taunts, or landing a CC anytime during the half second setup stopped the entire burst, and left the DH with 3-4 cool downs at minimum, traits/rune buffs/elite/and important damage/defense skills were all wasted.

I've never had a problem being oneshot, actually worth a good laugh when someone puts the work in to hide, and surprise you, or when you predict it, and dodge leaving them with a skill bar of cool downs.

Good luck killing a thief or any mobile class with no burst, they will take a reset anytime your low slow damage puts pressure on them.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

> @"Eurantien.4632" said:

> 2v2 is exactly the type of thing needed to make healthier ATs. Some queuing and coming across someone else that's good and sticking together for some winstreaks makes me wanna take that person on a 5v5 adventure and see how they do.

>

> I haven't felt that way since free tourneys existed.

 

The 2v2s are REALLY forcing players to learn their class as a whole as well. This in addition to players learning deeper in-combat strategies. I've noticed lately that players who are avidly playing 2v2s are just winning team fights.

 

It'll need to be in a separate thread at some point, but I can't say enough good things about the 2v2 right now. I kind of feel like Ranked Seasons should always be 2v2, and ATs should be the 5v5s. So many reasons for this. The first part of what you said, is a big reason why. There is great community cohesion in the 2v2 dynamic.