Tayga.3192 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Thief is pretty bad in 2v2, like mesmer. (guess who said this) Thief is good in 5v5, mesmer is not. (guess who said this) Hence buff mesmer. (and this is what I say) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice Talk. > > > > Here's a better idea, why don't you point out why Thief loses against Mesmer? Funny how that works now, doesn't it? > > I .... I already did. That was the whole point of the list. "No U" doesnt really work in this scenario. But let me repeat myself in a Tl;Dr **Its because Mesmer does more damage, has higher burst, better CC lockdown, higher health and slightly better sustain.** And this is where a lot of us called BS and defacto asked you to substaintiate your claim with video material. And you started pointing fingers and fighting windmills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senqu.8054 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice Six if not more people are telling you that you are wrong. I mean often should we tell you that the design How a thief does dmg counters Mesmer in the most ways. Should we now talk about the fact that thief just can kite out Mesmer shatters etc? Sorry if I repeat myself but how are you supposed to explain someone who believes the earth is flat that it isn’t? „Ehh gravitation, ehh forming spheres“ I mean do you see that there is no point in even trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice Talk. > > > > > > Here's a better idea, why don't you point out why Thief loses against Mesmer? Funny how that works now, doesn't it? > > > > I .... I already did. That was the whole point of the list. "No U" doesnt really work in this scenario. But let me repeat myself in a Tl;Dr. **Its because Mesmer does more damage, has higher burst, better CC lockdown, higher health and slightly better sustain. ** > > And this is where a lot of us called BS and defacto asked you to substaintiate your claim with video material. And you started pointing fingers and fighting windmills. Im afraid your memory is faulty. None of you did. Itd be pretty stupid if you had, but luckily for you, you didnt. What one guy did is fabricate screenshots as a desperate attempt to try and act like thief burst was much higher than it actually is. Only for me to prove it was fabricated using both math, and a screenshot (despite how useless screenshots are). However, it wouldnt matter, because if you want to disprove my claim, you need to disprove any of the parts. Of course, health, sustain and CC are pretty clearly not disprovable, Im sure even youre aware of it. So your best bet is burst or damage. The math is already there. If you want to disprove it, try to find and error. And uh, good luck with that. But just to be clear, your argument is that Mesmer doesnt beat thief because Mesmer does less damage, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice Talk. > > > > > > > > Here's a better idea, why don't you point out why Thief loses against Mesmer? Funny how that works now, doesn't it? > > > > > > I .... I already did. That was the whole point of the list. "No U" doesnt really work in this scenario. But let me repeat myself in a Tl;Dr. **Its because Mesmer does more damage, has higher burst, better CC lockdown, higher health and slightly better sustain. ** > > > > And this is where a lot of us called BS and defacto asked you to substaintiate your claim with video material. And you started pointing fingers and fighting windmills. > > Im afraid your memory is faulty. None of you did. Itd be pretty stupid if you had, but luckily for you, you didnt. What one guy did is fabricate screenshots as a desperate attempt to try and act like thief burst was much higher than it actually is. Only for me to prove it was fabricated using both math, and a screenshot (despite how useless screenshots are). However, it wouldnt matter, because if you want to disprove my claim, you need to disprove any of the parts. Of course, health, sustain and CC are pretty clearly not disprovable, Im sure even youre aware of it. So your best bet is burst or damage. The math is already there. If you want to disprove it, try to find and error. And uh, good luck with that. > > But just to be clear, your argument is that Mesmer doesnt beat thief because Mesmer does less damage, or what? Ok, I give up. ANET should balance based on what this guy says. Rejoice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice > > Six if not more people are telling you that you are wrong. I mean often should we tell you that the design How a thief does dmg counters Mesmer in the most ways. Should we now talk about the fact that thief just can kite out Mesmer shatters etc? > > Sorry if I repeat myself but how are you supposed to explain someone who believes the earth is flat that it isn’t? „Ehh gravitation, ehh forming spheres“ I mean do you see that there is no point in even trying. Argumentum ad Populum. A logical fallacy, and as such a worthless argument. Usually sign of a lack of a real argument. In this case also selection bias, of course Mesmer mains are likely to say Mesmer loses it, that makes their statements inherently less objective. You havent told me any reason even *once*. You said "Mesmer is countered by thief, because its countered by thief", and thats it. So please, do tell me how thief damage totally counters Mesmers. Also, how is Thief supposed to "kite out" Mesmer Shatters? Thief is predominantly a *close* range class. They cant hit the Mesmer without being in shatter range. Im afraid *you* are the flat earthers in this scenario. *I* have tried to explain it to you. You just dismissed it with reasonings on the same level of "Its a conspiracy by NASA" while providing no counterargument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouk.5914 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 i have 6 hours on thief..... they counter power mesmer, chrono and mirage. Any idiot that say's otherwise should probably stop playing thief LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice > > > > Six if not more people are telling you that you are wrong. I mean often should we tell you that the design How a thief does dmg counters Mesmer in the most ways. Should we now talk about the fact that thief just can kite out Mesmer shatters etc? > > > > Sorry if I repeat myself but how are you supposed to explain someone who believes the earth is flat that it isn’t? „Ehh gravitation, ehh forming spheres“ I mean do you see that there is no point in even trying. > > Argumentum ad Populum. A logical fallacy, and as such a worthless argument. Usually sign of a lack of a real argument. In this case also selection bias, of course Mesmer mains are likely to say Mesmer loses it, that makes their statements inherently less objective. > > You havent told me any reason even *once*. You said "Mesmer is countered by thief, because its countered by thief", and thats it. So please, do tell me how thief damage totally counters Mesmers. Also, how is Thief supposed to "kite out" Mesmer Shatters? Thief is predominantly a *close* range class. They cant hit the Mesmer without being in shatter range. > > Im afraid *you* are the flat earthers in this scenario. *I* have tried to explain it to you. You just dismissed it with reasonings on the same level of "Its a conspiracy by NASA" while providing no counterargument. It took you saying "fallacy," for it to click exactly who you are and why I shouldn't waste any more keyboard hits on you. Have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice Talk. > > > > > > > > > > Here's a better idea, why don't you point out why Thief loses against Mesmer? Funny how that works now, doesn't it? > > > > > > > > I .... I already did. That was the whole point of the list. "No U" doesnt really work in this scenario. But let me repeat myself in a Tl;Dr. **Its because Mesmer does more damage, has higher burst, better CC lockdown, higher health and slightly better sustain. ** > > > > > > And this is where a lot of us called BS and defacto asked you to substaintiate your claim with video material. And you started pointing fingers and fighting windmills. > > > > Im afraid your memory is faulty. None of you did. Itd be pretty stupid if you had, but luckily for you, you didnt. What one guy did is fabricate screenshots as a desperate attempt to try and act like thief burst was much higher than it actually is. Only for me to prove it was fabricated using both math, and a screenshot (despite how useless screenshots are). However, it wouldnt matter, because if you want to disprove my claim, you need to disprove any of the parts. Of course, health, sustain and CC are pretty clearly not disprovable, Im sure even youre aware of it. So your best bet is burst or damage. The math is already there. If you want to disprove it, try to find and error. And uh, good luck with that. > > > > But just to be clear, your argument is that Mesmer doesnt beat thief because Mesmer does less damage, or what? > > Ok, I give up. ANET should balance based on what this guy says. Rejoice. You know, most people would actually try to self-reflect when they realise "wait, I *have* been saying this without having any argument for it or any answer for why. Could it be that I just repeated something Ive heard without really ever thinking about it?". Because thats usually a good indicator. But I suppose its not for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > > > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice Talk. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here's a better idea, why don't you point out why Thief loses against Mesmer? Funny how that works now, doesn't it? > > > > > > > > > > I .... I already did. That was the whole point of the list. "No U" doesnt really work in this scenario. But let me repeat myself in a Tl;Dr. **Its because Mesmer does more damage, has higher burst, better CC lockdown, higher health and slightly better sustain. ** > > > > > > > > And this is where a lot of us called BS and defacto asked you to substaintiate your claim with video material. And you started pointing fingers and fighting windmills. > > > > > > Im afraid your memory is faulty. None of you did. Itd be pretty stupid if you had, but luckily for you, you didnt. What one guy did is fabricate screenshots as a desperate attempt to try and act like thief burst was much higher than it actually is. Only for me to prove it was fabricated using both math, and a screenshot (despite how useless screenshots are). However, it wouldnt matter, because if you want to disprove my claim, you need to disprove any of the parts. Of course, health, sustain and CC are pretty clearly not disprovable, Im sure even youre aware of it. So your best bet is burst or damage. The math is already there. If you want to disprove it, try to find and error. And uh, good luck with that. > > > > > > But just to be clear, your argument is that Mesmer doesnt beat thief because Mesmer does less damage, or what? > > > > Ok, I give up. ANET should balance based on what this guy says. Rejoice. > > You know, most people would actually try to self-reflect when they realise "wait, I *have* been saying this without having any argument for it or any answer for why. Could it be that I just repeated something Ive heard without really ever thinking about it?". Because thats usually a good indicator. But I suppose its not for you. :-1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice > > > > > > Six if not more people are telling you that you are wrong. I mean often should we tell you that the design How a thief does dmg counters Mesmer in the most ways. Should we now talk about the fact that thief just can kite out Mesmer shatters etc? > > > > > > Sorry if I repeat myself but how are you supposed to explain someone who believes the earth is flat that it isn’t? „Ehh gravitation, ehh forming spheres“ I mean do you see that there is no point in even trying. > > > > Argumentum ad Populum. A logical fallacy, and as such a worthless argument. Usually sign of a lack of a real argument. In this case also selection bias, of course Mesmer mains are likely to say Mesmer loses it, that makes their statements inherently less objective. > > > > You havent told me any reason even *once*. You said "Mesmer is countered by thief, because its countered by thief", and thats it. So please, do tell me how thief damage totally counters Mesmers. Also, how is Thief supposed to "kite out" Mesmer Shatters? Thief is predominantly a *close* range class. They cant hit the Mesmer without being in shatter range. > > > > Im afraid *you* are the flat earthers in this scenario. *I* have tried to explain it to you. You just dismissed it with reasonings on the same level of "Its a conspiracy by NASA" while providing no counterargument. > > It took you saying "fallacy," for it to click exactly who you are and why I shouldn't waste any more keyboard hits on you. Have a good day. Lemme guess. Someone who requires actual arguments to be convinced and cant just be pressured into accepting what you believe? Yeah I guess those would be inconvenient for you who doesnt have any arguments. Edit: But dont worry, your implicit admittal of being wrong has been heard loud and clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt Crunch.7058 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Oh yeah, I forgot, we talked about the difference in burst between Mesmer and Thief. Ill quickly calculate Mesmers burst then. Im gonna actually use the metabattle build though instead of an artificial one that tries to up the damage as much as possible. Thieves armour rating is 2029. Now here is where it gets tricks, since Mesmer is multiple hits at the same time, the damage gets messy. Specifically, vulnerability from Mirror Blade and Power Spike, and Power from Mirror Blades might. Way Im going to handle it is that I simply apply it to the next one, so mirror blade wont benefit from its own vulnerability or might. Less damage than the actual burst, but easier to calculate. So, Mesmers power is 2375. With Mirror Blades might, its 2645. Power Spike applies 12 vulnerability, Mirror Blade applies 12. The scalings Ive mentioned above, but its 0.45 for Power Spike, Mirror blade 1.57. Mind Wrack 2.0. Greatswords weapon strength is 1015. Time to do math. > > So, were gonna calculate the 3 base damages first, then the multipliers. Power spike is (0.45\*2375\*1015)/2029=534. Mirror Blade is (1.57\*2375\*1015)/2029=1865. Mind Wrack is (2.0\*2645\*1015)/2029=2646. Now, multipliers. Power Spike gets affected by Scholar, the weapon sigils, and of course Superiority Complex boosted crit. So, 1.12 and 2.4. Thats 534\*1.12\*2.4=1435. Now, Mirror Blade. Here it gets more interesting. Since Power Spike did damage, egotism kicks in. Additionally, Power Spike applied 12 vulnerability, futher increasing damage by 18% thanks to Fragility. So its 1865\*1.12\*2.4\*1.05\*1.18=6211 damage. Now, at this point against a thief, Superiority Complex's second part would also kick in. But Im going to ignore it. Just because its too close (And unneccessary). However, now the target has 24 vulnerability. Which means 1.36 increase. Additionally, shatters benefit from Shattered Anguish, which adds another 1.2. So, thats 2646\*1.12\*2.4\*1.05\*1.36\*1.2= 12188 damage. Total damage: 1435+6211+12188=19834 damage. Remember, even your max malice malicious backstab didnt do this much damage. And Mesmers actual damage is *higher* since I didnt include Superiority Complex's second part, or the might and vulnerability on each hit of Mirror Blade. > > So yeah, Mesmers burst is way higher. And this is just the version that cant be reacted to. If you want more damage you can then follow up with Mind Stab and Phantasmal Berserker. But theyre totally superfluous. > Your math is wrong. Coefficient for Mirror Blade is 0.6 with supposedly 15% reduction in damage on each bounce, so 0.51 for 2nd strike, and 0.4335 for third strike (currently bugged though, the damage reduction is greater than 15% atm). Coefficient for Mind Wrack is 1.0 for 1 clone, 0.7 for 2 clones, and 0.613 for 3 clones in PvP/WvW (per what is on the latest patch notes). Also, when calculating the damage from Mind Wrack, don't be disingenuous and use the 3 clone coefficient since the burst you are describing occurs when only 1 clone is active + IP from the mesmer standing close by. I could criticize more but it seems you were already incorrect from the beginning by grabbing whatever numbers you wanted straight from the Wiki despite not everything being up-to-date yet. A better course of action is to do what Lincolnbeard did which is to... you know.... **actually test** things as they are in game right now. Tool tips, patch notes, and wiki can be incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"Virdo.1540" said: > Tbh in my last 10rounds or so where i played pvp, ive seen some mesmers. > yes they dont have their tons of sustain from their 2. dodge, but they are still an killing machine. > > Just like they should be. Good supporters, very high damage but low(well lets say more than mediocre) sustain supporters? what supporters? moral support? we cheerleaders now or wat? have i missed some supporting buffs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Senqu.8054" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That was *outside* of the burst combo. How exactly do you intend to blind the Mesmer you dont even know is there before they do the burst combo? Doesnt work, does it? Sides, even if you coul somehow, they just powerspike and get rid of blind, then hit with the GS + Mind Wrack anyway. Its lower damage than the proper burst, but still much higher than backstab. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The mass invis from nowhere + burst is a problem for thieves, yes, but that's how matchups against thieves work on mesmer since ever; if the mesmer oneshots, it's done; if the mesmer can't, he's a goner, the thief can leave and chase much better than a mesmer can. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, I know oneshots are a problem -they made a big patch to remove oneshots, with the result that power mesmer had everything removed EXCEPT oneshots- but not nearly a question of balance for thieves, they already have enough of an easy time against mesmers anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Thats the thing. If the Mesmer doesnt oneshot, he is still favoured.** Yes, the thief can run away much better, but that doesnt make the thief *win* the fight, now does it? Now, lets say the thief is stupid enough to fight. Well, the Mesmer has about 30% more effective HP, much higher damage, better CC lockdown (which isnt saying much tbh, Thief typicall has a daze and thats it), *very* slightly better sustain (healing about 1k extra every 25 seconds) and better defensive options. The thief has .... well he can run away better. Thats it though. Maybe if were talking condi thief, thatd be a different story, but then reflect would be a big deal, and I also have that sneaking suspicion you werent talking about condi thieves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I think you lost all your reputation here. No matter how good your arguments are if you say the earth is flat you are not even worth listening / reading. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What, because I point out that something that "everybody knows" hasnt been true in years? Yes, thief used to counter Mesmer, including Power Mesmer. But that was a long time ago. Things changed. Thieves autoattacks were once *really* high damage, and as a result their DPS post-burst was higher. But their autoattacks got nerfed over and over, and right now they hit like wet noodles. The advantage thief had in the power matchup is gone, now their burst and DPS is lower. Against a class that also has much better CC, thats a death-sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im confusied. Should I think that you are a troll or just live in your own world by this point > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you should realise that neither is the case. But please, if you think that Thief beats Mesmer, explain how a class with lower burst, lower damage, lower CC, lower health and (slightly) lower sustain totally beats Mesmer. If it were true, that should be trivially easy for you to answer, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're just trolling, just stop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Good I’m not the only one thinking this > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats obvious. Calling everyone liars regardless evidance being presented that he is wrong and he cant even calculate right. Know very little about his poor main class that is the worst in the game ! :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you Mesmer mains really like lying. Lets start. "Regardless of evidence being presented". As I explained, that "evidence" was fabricated. Math has shown it, but given that you want to try and dismiss it as "me not being able to calculate right" (despite of course not pointing to any error in the calculation because you know there *isnt* one there), I even went in the game, tested it, and posted a screenshot. Guess what? The screenshot showed the exact same thing the math showed. That his "evidence" was fabricated. So that was a blatant lie. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Knows very little about his poor main class", first ,I havent mained thief in a while. Im playing Core Engineer. Much more effective, much more fun. Second, I do know a lot about it. Enough to be able to instantly spot fabrications. You however clearly dont, given that you either are a shameless liar, or are so clueless about thief you legitimately believed his fabricated "evidence". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey man, everyone is entitled to their opinion. You keep doing you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lies are not an opinion. And facts arent either. What I said is the undeniable, certain truth. What he said was just a bunch of lies. Something Mesmer mains truly seem to love. Seriously, you guys need to lay off the RPing a bit, youre being overtaken by your characters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now you're being disrespectful to a whole group of the playerbase, putting them under common denominator. One might suggest you're biased against Mesmers. Slippery slope there, isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just observations made from you guys. But no, Im not really biased against Mesmer, I used to play the class before I got bored of the oneshots. Close friend plays it. But somehow, they seem to be the exception, not the rule. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I see you chose option B, admitting that Mesmer does in fact not lose against thief. Wasnt so hard, was it? Well, if you ever try to repeat that phrase again, Ill just refer back to this. Nice talk. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where exactly did you see me state that? Now you're literally putting words in my mouth. You need to go splash some water on your face, cuz this is delusional. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Either, A, point out why Mesmer loses, or B, admit that you are wrong and that Mesmer doesnt. Of course, given your incessant attempts to try and repeat that claim and your continued refusal to support it, not answering the question makes you choose B by default. Choose wisely.". > > > > > > I gave you a choice. Refusal to answer was one of the options, which selected B by default. You refused to answer. You chose B. Of course, if you wanted to not choose B, all you wouldve had to do is go for option A. But you refused to. So option B it is. Nice Talk. > > > > > > > > > > Here's a better idea, why don't you point out why Thief loses against Mesmer? Funny how that works now, doesn't it? > > > > > > > > I .... I already did. That was the whole point of the list. "No U" doesnt really work in this scenario. But let me repeat myself in a Tl;Dr. **Its because Mesmer does more damage, has higher burst, better CC lockdown, higher health and slightly better sustain. ** > > > > > > And this is where a lot of us called BS and defacto asked you to substaintiate your claim with video material. And you started pointing fingers and fighting windmills. > > > > Im afraid your memory is faulty. None of you did. Itd be pretty stupid if you had, but luckily for you, you didnt. What one guy did is fabricate screenshots as a desperate attempt to try and act like thief burst was much higher than it actually is. Only for me to prove it was fabricated using both math, and a screenshot (despite how useless screenshots are). However, it wouldnt matter, because if you want to disprove my claim, you need to disprove any of the parts. Of course, health, sustain and CC are pretty clearly not disprovable, Im sure even youre aware of it. So your best bet is burst or damage. The math is already there. If you want to disprove it, try to find and error. And uh, good luck with that. > > > > But just to be clear, your argument is that Mesmer doesnt beat thief because Mesmer does less damage, or what? > > Ok, I give up. ANET should balance based on what this guy says. Rejoice. they already do my man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Can you guys not just ignore him? That is so obviously nonsense that it doesn't deserve any attention, not even reading. Get your own tddr (toodumbdidn'tread) list, i can tell you it helps. You waste even more time than me with narrowed ppl like phyrosomething, madsomething UNOsomething... i mean when even i stopped already to discuss... just ignore and ppl like that vanish sooner or later, feeding will not lead anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"Cpt Crunch.7058" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > Oh yeah, I forgot, we talked about the difference in burst between Mesmer and Thief. Ill quickly calculate Mesmers burst then. Im gonna actually use the metabattle build though instead of an artificial one that tries to up the damage as much as possible. Thieves armour rating is 2029. Now here is where it gets tricks, since Mesmer is multiple hits at the same time, the damage gets messy. Specifically, vulnerability from Mirror Blade and Power Spike, and Power from Mirror Blades might. Way Im going to handle it is that I simply apply it to the next one, so mirror blade wont benefit from its own vulnerability or might. Less damage than the actual burst, but easier to calculate. So, Mesmers power is 2375. With Mirror Blades might, its 2645. Power Spike applies 12 vulnerability, Mirror Blade applies 12. The scalings Ive mentioned above, but its 0.45 for Power Spike, Mirror blade 1.57. Mind Wrack 2.0. Greatswords weapon strength is 1015. Time to do math. > > > > So, were gonna calculate the 3 base damages first, then the multipliers. Power spike is (0.45\*2375\*1015)/2029=534. Mirror Blade is (1.57\*2375\*1015)/2029=1865. Mind Wrack is (2.0\*2645\*1015)/2029=2646. Now, multipliers. Power Spike gets affected by Scholar, the weapon sigils, and of course Superiority Complex boosted crit. So, 1.12 and 2.4. Thats 534\*1.12\*2.4=1435. Now, Mirror Blade. Here it gets more interesting. Since Power Spike did damage, egotism kicks in. Additionally, Power Spike applied 12 vulnerability, futher increasing damage by 18% thanks to Fragility. So its 1865\*1.12\*2.4\*1.05\*1.18=6211 damage. Now, at this point against a thief, Superiority Complex's second part would also kick in. But Im going to ignore it. Just because its too close (And unneccessary). However, now the target has 24 vulnerability. Which means 1.36 increase. Additionally, shatters benefit from Shattered Anguish, which adds another 1.2. So, thats 2646\*1.12\*2.4\*1.05\*1.36\*1.2= 12188 damage. Total damage: 1435+6211+12188=19834 damage. Remember, even your max malice malicious backstab didnt do this much damage. And Mesmers actual damage is *higher* since I didnt include Superiority Complex's second part, or the might and vulnerability on each hit of Mirror Blade. > > > > So yeah, Mesmers burst is way higher. And this is just the version that cant be reacted to. If you want more damage you can then follow up with Mind Stab and Phantasmal Berserker. But theyre totally superfluous. > > > > Your math is wrong. Coefficient for Mirror Blade is 0.6 with supposedly 15% reduction in damage on each bounce, so 0.51 for 2nd strike, and 0.4335 for third strike (currently bugged though, the damage reduction is greater than 15% atm). Coefficient for Mind Wrack is 1.0 for 1 clone, 0.7 for 2 clones, and 0.613 for 3 clones in PvP/WvW (per what is on the latest patch notes). Also, when calculating the damage from Mind Wrack, don't be disingenuous and use the 3 clone coefficient since the burst you are describing occurs when only 1 clone is active + IP from the mesmer standing close by. I could criticize more but it seems you were already incorrect from the beginning by grabbing whatever numbers you wanted straight from the Wiki despite not everything being up-to-date yet. A better course of action is to do what Lincolnbeard did which is to... you know.... **actually test** things as they are in game right now. Tool tips, patch notes, and wiki can be incorrect. > > Yes, thats the coefficients Im using. For Mirror Blade, its 0.6, then 0.6\*0.15^2, then the same with 0.15^4, and 0.15^6. Thats 1.57. Mind Wrack is 1.0 for 1 clone, yes. Which makes it do 2.0, since the Mesmer himself also gets shattered and applies the same damage. Now the Mirror Blade bug might change it, but that is a bug. Which of course, will be fixed. Edit: I have to say though, I have never had a situation where a guy went "your math is wrong" and then explained why its correct. That is actually incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Can you guys not just ignore him? That is so obviously nonsense that it doesn't deserve any attention, not even reading. Get your own tddr (toodumbdidn'tread) list, i can tell you it helps. You waste even more time than me with narrowed ppl like phyrosomething, madsomething UNOsomething... i mean when even i stopped already to discuss... just ignore and ppl like that vanish sooner or later, feeding will not lead anywhere. Thank you for the kind insight. It helped. P.S. Are you just karma whoring or am I a dunce? :lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Now the Mirror Blade bug might change it, but that is a bug. Which of course, will be fixed. *stares at power block* and *stares at elixir endurance bug* (this got fixed years late) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Can you guys not just ignore him? That is so obviously nonsense that it doesn't deserve any attention, not even reading. Get your own tddr (toodumbdidn'tread) list, i can tell you it helps. You waste even more time than me with narrowed ppl like phyrosomething, madsomething UNOsomething... i mean when even i stopped already to discuss... just ignore and ppl like that vanish sooner or later, feeding will not lead anywhere. That is so obviously ~~nonsense~~ a truth we dont want to admit that it ~~doesnt deserve any attention~~ is something we cant allow to acknowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Now the Mirror Blade bug might change it, but that is a bug. Which of course, will be fixed. > > *stares at power block* > and > *stares at elixir endurance bug* (this got fixed years late) > Thats still bugged? I mean to be fair, I guess Pulmonary Impact was bugged up until they nerfed it too, so uh, yeah thats fair. Maybe it wont be fixed. But it still has a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Thats still bugged? Yeah, it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Thats still bugged? > > Yeah, it is. Bloody hell. I mean, not too surprising but it would be nice if they could go over some of the older bugs and fix them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"Gryxis.6950" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > Continuum Split still lets you double up on anything even if chrono is dead, means if it ever comes back it doubles the power of whatever is strong while making balance by cool down irrelevant. > > What would be the point of continuum split if you couldn't double up your skills ? > > You obviously change continuum split to be something else. They can figure it out, AoE good length alacrity might be a great start given the support nature of the spec and lose distortion, give and take ya know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > Can you guys not just ignore him? That is so obviously nonsense that it doesn't deserve any attention, not even reading. Get your own tddr (toodumbdidn'tread) list, i can tell you it helps. You waste even more time than me with narrowed ppl like phyrosomething, madsomething UNOsomething... i mean when even i stopped already to discuss... just ignore and ppl like that vanish sooner or later, feeding will not lead anywhere. > > > P.S. Are you just karma kitten or am I a dunce? :lol Me? No i am just honest saying what i think, i probably would have just as much downvotes as upvotes if downvotes would be possible in this forum. Depends on whose feet i treat xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Mesmer's burst combo comes from well spaced multiple bounces after blowing a lengthy 30 second cooldown to gap close using all it's resources to engage safely, leaving little to escape with. Thief by comparison is safe both engaging and escaping, can make burst attempts more frequently, not being tied to legnthy cooldowns, on top of better in combat mobility, also ignoring LoS on the engagement; on top of having access to far more stealth or far more evade that is simply tied to weapon kits. (although evade also comes from a lot of endurance regen and DD compared to mirage get's 3 baseline to Mirage's 1.) There is no comparison. If you are a decent thief a shatter should never land, and phantasms should never hit you. Mesmer doesn't have enough to lock down that a thief can't escape from. You can endlessly pressure a mesmer's defensive options with stealth while also making their illusions useless, or can easily evade the highly telegraphed targeted damage. Also thief has the luxury to disengage at any time and come back, a mesmer is always exposed. Even with PU mesmer's stealth is limited and tied to long cooldowns. A mesmer's "effective HP" doesn't make a difference, it's still to squishy to sit there and take hits while auto attacking, which are relatively weak. (lot of builds can shrug off free cast of Spatial Surge beam on a zerk build like it's nothing lol.) Even if GS combo did hit harder (which it doesn't); at least it's via multiple cooldowns on a weapon kit being blown at the same time... and not some front loaded one shot like backstab- that is so safe you can just escape into stealth and try again, while your opponent is blowing defensive cooldowns in anticipation... Plus thief can just extend the duration on a whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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