Mesmer needs buff

[Senqu.8054]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Mesmer's burst combo comes from well spaced multiple bounces after blowing a lengthy 30 second cooldown to gap close using all it's resources to engage safely, leaving little to escape with.

>

> Thief by comparison is safe both engaging and escaping, can make burst attempts more frequently, not being tied to legnthy cooldowns on top of better in combat mobility, also ignoring LoS on the engagement; on top of having access to far more stealth or far more evade that is simply tied to weapon kits. (although evade also comes from a lot of endurance regen and DD compared to mirage get's 3 baseline to Mirage's 1.)

>

> There is no comparison. If you are a decent thief a shatter should never land, and phantasms should never hit you. Mesmer doesn't have enough to lock down that a thief can't escape from. You can endlessly pressure a mesmer's defensive options with stealth while also making their illusions useless, or can easily evade the highly telegraphed targeted damage. Also thief has the luxury to disengage at any time and come back, a mesmer is always exposed. Even with PU mesmer's stealth is limited and tied to long cooldowns. A mesmer's "effective HP" doesn't make a difference, it still is to squishy to sit there and take hits auto attacking, which are relatively weak. (lot of builds can shrug off free cast of Spatial Surge beam on a zerk build like it's nothing lol.)

>

> Even if GS combo did hit harder (which it doesn't); at least it's via multiple cooldowns on a weapon kit being blown at the same time... and not some front loaded one shot like backstab- that is so safe you can just escape into stealth and try again, while your opponent is blowing defensive cooldowns in anticipation... where a thief can just extend the duration on a whim.

 

Emm I guess I have to say thank you. I mean I’m not a native English speaker and have my problems but this text is so nice written and explains it to good. I would have needed a tons of examples and words for this haha

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > Continuum Split still lets you double up on anything even if chrono is dead, means if it ever comes back it doubles the power of whatever is strong while making balance by cool down irrelevant.

> >

> > What would be the point of continuum split if you couldn't double up your skills ?

> >

> >

>

> You obviously change continuum split to be something else.

>

> They can figure it out, AoE good length alacrity might be a great start given the support nature of the spec and lose distortion, give and take ya know.

 

sounds more like take disort, take IP then take CS and give 1 boon in return :D

stop kicking dead horse just let the chrono rest in peace

[Virdo.1540]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Virdo.1540" said:

> > Tbh in my last 10rounds or so where i played pvp, ive seen some mesmers.

> > yes they dont have their tons of sustain from their 2. dodge, but they are still an killing machine.

> >

> > Just like they should be. Good supporters, very high damage but low(well lets say more than mediocre) sustain

>

> supporters? what supporters? moral support? we cheerleaders now or wat?

> have i missed some supporting buffs?

 

support for many things ofc ^^ Like boons, invis ,save stomps etc

 

its still strong. There is only the typical "i cant win, buff my class" scenario.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Virdo.1540" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Virdo.1540" said:

> > > Tbh in my last 10rounds or so where i played pvp, ive seen some mesmers.

> > > yes they dont have their tons of sustain from their 2. dodge, but they are still an killing machine.

> > >

> > > Just like they should be. Good supporters, very high damage but low(well lets say more than mediocre) sustain

> >

> > supporters? what supporters? moral support? we cheerleaders now or wat?

> > have i missed some supporting buffs?

>

> support for many things ofc ^^ Like boons, invis ,save stomps etc

Ye, mesmer became firebrand and sucked up thief smoke blasting in the process.

> its still strong. There is only the typical "i cant win, buff my class" scenario.

With such dumb logic we can delete 90% of class mechanics and add there 10 minutes cooldown(continuumsplitlol) and be like "dont whine because its harder to play now, its just no more easy facerolling and still strong (against terribad players), if you would complain then its another I CANT WIN BUFF ME".

 

[Virdo.1540]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Virdo.1540" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Virdo.1540" said:

> > > > Tbh in my last 10rounds or so where i played pvp, ive seen some mesmers.

> > > > yes they dont have their tons of sustain from their 2. dodge, but they are still an killing machine.

> > > >

> > > > Just like they should be. Good supporters, very high damage but low(well lets say more than mediocre) sustain

> > >

> > > supporters? what supporters? moral support? we cheerleaders now or wat?

> > > have i missed some supporting buffs?

> >

> > support for many things ofc ^^ Like boons, invis ,save stomps etc

> Ye, mesmer became firebrand and sucked up thief smoke blasting in the process.

> > its still strong. There is only the typical "i cant win, buff my class" scenario.

> With such dumb logic we can delete 90% of class mechanics and add there 10 minutes cooldown(continuumsplitlol) and be like "dont whine because its harder to play now, its just no more easy facerolling and still strong (against terribad players), if you would complain then its another I CANT WIN BUFF ME".

>

 

well it is like it is. Its still very strong, if not one of the strongest classes. And still people complain cuz they cant play without an second burst-immunity-clonebuff

[apharma.3741]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > Continuum Split still lets you double up on anything even if chrono is dead, means if it ever comes back it doubles the power of whatever is strong while making balance by cool down irrelevant.

> > >

> > > What would be the point of continuum split if you couldn't double up your skills ?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You obviously change continuum split to be something else.

> >

> > They can figure it out, AoE good length alacrity might be a great start given the support nature of the spec and lose distortion, give and take ya know.

>

> sounds more like take disort, take IP then take CS and give 1 boon in return :D

> stop kicking dead horse just let the chrono rest in peace

 

You need to have the original context in mind:

 

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Buffing mesmer without addressing the problems that still persist but nerfed down into irrelevancy is a bad idea. What are those Pharma?

>

> Mantra of pain still giving 12 stacks of might.

> Continuum Split still lets you double up on anything even if chrono is dead, means if it ever comes back it doubles the power of whatever is strong while making balance by cool down irrelevant.

> Mirage cloak is still, imo, a bad mechanic even if it's nerfed down to 1 dodge.

>

> Don't get me wrong, there were some really (in my opinion) dumb changes over time like mantra of concentration becoming 60s CD making it one of the worst stability skills in the game, no IP on chrono makes it unplayable without clone spam...which no-one wants and many utility skills in a very weird place for various reasons.

>

> Having said that one thing I have to praise the balance team for is increasing mesmer identity a little with bountiful blades and adding more boon removal to domination. Perhaps if chaos was more about transferring conditions from yourself to enemies (sort of how mallyx was supposed to work) it might cement mesmer as kind of this manipulation class again but the above absolutely need changing before anything else can happen as these aspects are simply too strong.

 

The point is the ability to double up on anything is simply too power a mechanic, if something is worth using on it's own it's worth doubling up on. I'd rather F4 give a load of alacrity to you and nearby and IP restored than ever keep continuum split even if it's a really fun concept.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> Mesmer's burst combo comes from well spaced multiple bounces after blowing a lengthy 30 second cooldown to gap close using all it's resources to engage safely, leaving little to escape with.

>

 

Blink is an option, but normally you just use stealth to engage. Additionally, even if you use Blink, thats not "all your resources". You still have a stunbreak, 2 forms of stealth, and various forms of superspeed.

 

> Thief by comparison is safe both engaging and escaping, can make burst attempts more frequently, not being tied to legnthy cooldowns on top of better in combat mobility, also ignoring LoS on the engagement; on top of having access to far more stealth or far more evade that is simply tied to weapon kits. (although evade also comes from a lot of endurance regen and DD compared to mirage get's 3 baseline to Mirage's 1.)

>

 

Partially true. Thief is relatively safe in engaging since it just uses stealth to engage, but so does the Mesmer. Still, Thief *does* have shortbow 5, and its hard to compete with that. Unless youre a Warrior on flat ground. However, thief actually cant make burst attempts more frequently (well, not ones that hit hard anyway). Assassins Signet has a 30 second cooldown. Mindwrack and mirror blade dont, and there are multiple ways to approach an instant burst combo. Also, no, the thief doesnt have more evades. D/P Thief has the standard 2 evades that core Mesmer also has, Withdraw, and Dagger Storm. Thats it. S/D might, but S/D also doesnt have any burst (and isnt good right now).

 

> There is no comparison. If you are a decent thief a shatter should never land, and phantasms should never hit you. Mesmer doesn't have enough to lock down that a thief can't escape from. You can endlessly pressure a mesmer's defensive options with stealth while also making their illusions useless, or can easily evade the highly telegraphed targeted damage. Also thief has the luxury to disengage at any time and come back, a mesmer is always exposed. Even with PU mesmer's stealth is limited and tied to long cooldowns. A mesmer's "effective HP" doesn't make a difference, it still is to squishy to sit there and take hits auto attacking, which are relatively weak. (lot of builds can shrug off free cast of Spatial Surge beam on a zerk build like it's nothing lol.)

>

 

This is however false. No matter how good a thief is, if a Mesmer oneshots you out of stealth, there was nothing you couldve done. Its your entire health exploding in .1 seconds. Just as a friendly reminder, the fastest recorded human reaction time is about .18 seconds. Youd need to be almost twice as fast at reacting, have no ping at all, and no input delay, to potentially be able to dodge. Its not physically possible. And the Mesmer can in fact ensure that it happens out of stealth. "Easily evade the highly telegraphed targetted damage". That you dont see because of stealth. Which is itself ignoring the fact that Shatter is instant.

 

"You can endless pressure a Mesmers defensive options with stealth". If the thief is using in-combat stealth, you just blow them up there. Entering stealth usually means BP or Smokescreen + Heartseeker. Which is such a long cast time, you can just explode the thief. Which is of course, why the thief wont do that. He will just switch to shortbow and peace out instead of fighting. Also, you think Mesmer is too squishy to sit there and take hits autoattacking (which is false, they have skills they can use), but you dont think that the Thief, with almost 30% less effective HP, isnt? Yeah that makes no sense.

 

> Even if GS combo did hit harder (which it doesn't); at least it's via multiple cooldowns on a weapon kit being blown at the same time... and not some front loaded one shot like backstab- that is so safe you can just escape into stealth and try again, while your opponent is blowing defensive cooldowns in anticipation... where a thief can just extend the duration on a whim.

 

The unreactable GS combo (short of any bugs which may or may not be fixed) hits almost *twice* as hard. Thats an undeniable fact. It hits *much* harder. And its also a frontloaded oneshot like backstab. Its also as safe as Backstab (remember, the D/P thief wont be able to stealth for 3 seconds, and has no defenses whatsoever. At least Mesmer has CC or Distortion).

 

You had some good points, but they were sadly outnumbered by the simple falsehoods and misrepresentations that ultimately make the whole argument fall apart.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

>

> Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

 

Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

 

Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, ~~vuln~~ blind. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

 

All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

 

Mystery solved!

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

> >

> > Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

>

> Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

>

 

Thats ... not how it works. Its additive with itself. Its not 1.05\*1.05. Its 1.10.

 

> Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, vuln. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

>

 

Thats ... also not how it works. Its 1.06, not 1.02^3. And as I said, this doesnt apply. *If* it did, it wouldve been included in my 1334, but it doesnt anyway. The Might stacks are from the backstab. Even the Odds specifically applies 5 stacks of might when a stealth attack hits. The Swipe hit before the backstab. The might didnt apply to it. So, no.

 

> All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

>

 

They don't. To fix your equation real quick, it would be 1334\*1.1\*1.15=1687. Which is *far* away from 1935. Though I should give a bit of a spoiler here, I do know how he did it. Its quite simple, and while its not as insidious as stacking might/vulnerability, removing the Mesmers armour or whatever he did for the Shadowshot screenshot, it does involve creating a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage. But you seem to enjoy the math, so Ill just give you a hint. There are only 3 extra damage modifiers applied. Exposed Weakness and Weakening Strikes are not amongst them.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

> > >

> > > Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

> >

> > Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

> >

>

> Thats ... not how it works. Its additive with itself. Its not 1.05\*1.05. Its 1.10.

>

> > Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, vuln. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

> >

>

> Thats ... also not how it works. Its 1.06, not 1.02^3. And as I said, this doesnt apply. *If* it did, it wouldve been included in my 1334, but it doesnt anyway. The Might stacks are from the backstab. Even the Odds specifically applies 5 stacks of might when a stealth attack hits. The Swipe hit before the backstab. The might didnt apply to it. So, no.

>

> > All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

> >

>

> They don't. To fix your equation real quick, it would be 1334\*1.1\*1.15=1687. Which is *far* away from 1935. Though I should give a bit of a spoiler here, I do know how he did it. Its quite simple, and while its not as insidious as stacking might/vulnerability, removing the Mesmers armour or whatever he did for the Shadowshot screenshot, it does involve creating a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage. But you seem to enjoy the math, so Ill just give you a hint. There are only 3 extra damage modifiers applied. Exposed Weakness and Weakening Strikes are not amongst them.

 

There's no point anymore, I just went in-game, dodged 3 times > assassin's signet > black powder > swipe = got 1684 against light armor golem.

 

1684 * 2185 = 3679540 (light armor golem has 2185 armor)

3679540 / 1920 = 1916

 

Now I have, what did you call it? - *in-game evidence along with infallible math to support it*, there is no reason to further this baseless argument.

 

Edit: I removed black powder, got 1619. End result = 1842.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

> > >

> > > Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

> > >

> >

> > Thats ... not how it works. Its additive with itself. Its not 1.05\*1.05. Its 1.10.

> >

> > > Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, vuln. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

> > >

> >

> > Thats ... also not how it works. Its 1.06, not 1.02^3. And as I said, this doesnt apply. *If* it did, it wouldve been included in my 1334, but it doesnt anyway. The Might stacks are from the backstab. Even the Odds specifically applies 5 stacks of might when a stealth attack hits. The Swipe hit before the backstab. The might didnt apply to it. So, no.

> >

> > > All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

> > >

> >

> > They don't. To fix your equation real quick, it would be 1334\*1.1\*1.15=1687. Which is *far* away from 1935. Though I should give a bit of a spoiler here, I do know how he did it. Its quite simple, and while its not as insidious as stacking might/vulnerability, removing the Mesmers armour or whatever he did for the Shadowshot screenshot, it does involve creating a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage. But you seem to enjoy the math, so Ill just give you a hint. There are only 3 extra damage modifiers applied. Exposed Weakness and Weakening Strikes are not amongst them.

>

> There's no point anymore, I just went in-game, dodged 3 times > assassin's signet > black powder > swipe = got 1684 against light armor golem.

>

> 1684 * 2185 = 3679540 (light armor golem has 2185 armor)

> 3679540 / 1920 = 1916

>

> Now I have, what did you call it? - *in-game evidence along with infallible math to support it*, there is no reason to further this baseless argument.

>

> Edit: I removed black powder, got 1619. End result = 1842.

 

Actually, dodging 3 times is unneccessary. Its much simpler than that. He used Executioner. Which is why its a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage, because executioner requires the target to be below 50%, at which point its not a oneshot anymore. I didnt even apply Superiority complex's second part to the second half of Mesmers burst, certainly not to its entirety of it.

 

Anyway, for completeness sake, its 1334\*1.2\*1.05\*1.15=1933. I assume the difference of 2 damage is down to rounding errors. Much closer, and Mug is in fact static now as opposed to the dual weild skills that seem to still have varying damage.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

> > > >

> > > > Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thats ... not how it works. Its additive with itself. Its not 1.05\*1.05. Its 1.10.

> > >

> > > > Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, vuln. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thats ... also not how it works. Its 1.06, not 1.02^3. And as I said, this doesnt apply. *If* it did, it wouldve been included in my 1334, but it doesnt anyway. The Might stacks are from the backstab. Even the Odds specifically applies 5 stacks of might when a stealth attack hits. The Swipe hit before the backstab. The might didnt apply to it. So, no.

> > >

> > > > All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

> > > >

> > >

> > > They don't. To fix your equation real quick, it would be 1334\*1.1\*1.15=1687. Which is *far* away from 1935. Though I should give a bit of a spoiler here, I do know how he did it. Its quite simple, and while its not as insidious as stacking might/vulnerability, removing the Mesmers armour or whatever he did for the Shadowshot screenshot, it does involve creating a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage. But you seem to enjoy the math, so Ill just give you a hint. There are only 3 extra damage modifiers applied. Exposed Weakness and Weakening Strikes are not amongst them.

> >

> > There's no point anymore, I just went in-game, dodged 3 times > assassin's signet > black powder > swipe = got 1684 against light armor golem.

> >

> > 1684 * 2185 = 3679540 (light armor golem has 2185 armor)

> > 3679540 / 1920 = 1916

> >

> > Now I have, what did you call it? - *in-game evidence along with infallible math to support it*, there is no reason to further this baseless argument.

> >

> > Edit: I removed black powder, got 1619. End result = 1842.

>

> Actually, dodging 3 times is unneccessary. Its much simpler than that. He used Executioner. Which is why its a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage, because executioner requires the target to be below 50%, at which point its not a oneshot anymore. I didnt even apply Superiority complex's second part to the second half of Mesmers burst, certainly not to its entirety of it.

>

> Anyway, for completeness sake, its 1334\*1.2\*1.05\*1.15=1933. I assume the difference of 2 damage is down to rounding errors. Much closer, and Mug is in fact static now as opposed to the dual weild skills that seem to still have varying damage.

 

Dude I don't play thief, but even I can tell he's running improvisation. My evidence just proved that he didn't need executioner at all, only just a few more might stacks.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > Tiny issue, you did not actually notate what *any* of those multipliers you wrote down are. Also, your formula comes out to 5537 damage, not 1918. Plus, if I had to guess, Id say that you included several multipliers that werent actually applying. Remember, the damage from Mug does not benefit from any of the other things Steal applies, they happen at the same time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Edit: for the sake of clarity, my assumption is 1.07 is weakening strikes, 1.06 (which he wrote as 1.02\*3) is exposed weakness, 1.15 probably is bounding dodger, the 2 1.05 ones however are a mystery. I suspect one is Scholars that he applied again despite me explaining that 1334 is *with* scholars active. 1.07, 1.06 both do not apply, as the Mug damage does not get amped by the conditions swipe applies. Though, even if it *did* apply, given that its impossible to have Mug without those active, they would be included in 1334 anyway.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to tie up loose ends, if you knew what was available on thief (I intentionally left it blank so you could prove yourself) you’d eventually figure out the two mystery 1.05 is from havoc specialist (why would he run anything else), more than 1 dodge bar is missing for a reason. Maybe it would’ve been easier to solve if I left it as (1.05 ^ 2) but I would’ve made a typo anyway cuz I was sleepy (and now there is a giant gap from the relevant comments)

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thats ... not how it works. Its additive with itself. Its not 1.05\*1.05. Its 1.10.

> > > >

> > > > > Yes (1.02 * 3) is typo, it’s (1.02 ^ 3), where I assumed 3 because there would have been 3 guaranteed condis - poison, weakness, vuln. A number of condi applying skills apply condis first and then deal dmg, but anet doesn’t let us know what they are/if they do. Regardless, you can get rid of this and try replace it with the ??? might stacks he has (note he has 5 but at 1/3 duration when the last stack was applied). Where’d this might come from? It is viable? Don’t ask me, I don’t pvp/play thief.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thats ... also not how it works. Its 1.06, not 1.02^3. And as I said, this doesnt apply. *If* it did, it wouldve been included in my 1334, but it doesnt anyway. The Might stacks are from the backstab. Even the Odds specifically applies 5 stacks of might when a stealth attack hits. The Swipe hit before the backstab. The might didnt apply to it. So, no.

> > > >

> > > > > All the mods I used (besides exposed weakness which can be replaced with might anyway) *can line up, and it looks like it did* just by looking at the dodge bar - he emptied all his dodges for 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.05, dodging applies weakness on next attack (1.07, *maybe activated by the black powder?*) and just that is already enough to bring 1334 to 1810, so maybe ‘1935’ isn’t so much of a fabrication after all.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > They don't. To fix your equation real quick, it would be 1334\*1.1\*1.15=1687. Which is *far* away from 1935. Though I should give a bit of a spoiler here, I do know how he did it. Its quite simple, and while its not as insidious as stacking might/vulnerability, removing the Mesmers armour or whatever he did for the Shadowshot screenshot, it does involve creating a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage. But you seem to enjoy the math, so Ill just give you a hint. There are only 3 extra damage modifiers applied. Exposed Weakness and Weakening Strikes are not amongst them.

> > >

> > > There's no point anymore, I just went in-game, dodged 3 times > assassin's signet > black powder > swipe = got 1684 against light armor golem.

> > >

> > > 1684 * 2185 = 3679540 (light armor golem has 2185 armor)

> > > 3679540 / 1920 = 1916

> > >

> > > Now I have, what did you call it? - *in-game evidence along with infallible math to support it*, there is no reason to further this baseless argument.

> > >

> > > Edit: I removed black powder, got 1619. End result = 1842.

> >

> > Actually, dodging 3 times is unneccessary. Its much simpler than that. He used Executioner. Which is why its a scenario that inaccurately represents the damage, because executioner requires the target to be below 50%, at which point its not a oneshot anymore. I didnt even apply Superiority complex's second part to the second half of Mesmers burst, certainly not to its entirety of it.

> >

> > Anyway, for completeness sake, its 1334\*1.2\*1.05\*1.15=1933. I assume the difference of 2 damage is down to rounding errors. Much closer, and Mug is in fact static now as opposed to the dual weild skills that seem to still have varying damage.

>

> Dude I don't play thief, but even I can tell he's running improvisation. My evidence just proved that he didn't need executioner at all, only just a few more might stacks.

 

I assumed that was just that steal bug where stealing twice on the same target just gave you the ability to use it twice, but it looks like that has been fixed. If he is using Improvisation, then thats odd, because 1916 is quite far off. And uh, his build has no way to get *any* more might stacks. It has only precisely 3 sources. Consume Plasma, backstab, and steal itself, and as usual, steal doesnt apply to itself (And if it did, wouldve been included in the 1334. Let me see. 1334\*1.15\*1.15=1764. 1935/1764=1.097. He would need about a 10% damage multiplier for the damage to lineup. Hm. What would that be? There isnt anything left that applies 10%.

 

Though, in this case, the scenario is "the thief dodges 3 times before doing his burst", which is just as misleading as in a oneshot scenario, the thief isnt gonna be dicking around dodging 3 times, especially since dodges are his only real defense. Thats just screwing himself over.

[Quadox.7834]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> this is the dumbest thread this month

 

this year*

[Avatar.3568]

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > this is the dumbest thread this month

>

> this year*

 

The dmg calculating is killing me

[Daishi.6027]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > Mesmer's burst combo comes from well spaced multiple bounces after blowing a lengthy 30 second cooldown to gap close using all it's resources to engage safely, leaving little to escape with.

> >

>

> Blink is an option, but normally you just use stealth to engage. Additionally, even if you use Blink, thats not "all your resources". You still have a stunbreak, 2 forms of stealth, and various forms of superspeed.

> > Thief by comparison is safe both engaging and escaping, can make burst attempts more frequently, not being tied to legnthy cooldowns on top of better in combat mobility, also ignoring LoS on the engagement; on top of having access to far more stealth or far more evade that is simply tied to weapon kits. (although evade also comes from a lot of endurance regen and DD compared to mirage get's 3 baseline to Mirage's 1.)

> >

>

> Partially true. Thief is relatively safe in engaging since it just uses stealth to engage, but so does the Mesmer. Still, Thief *does* have shortbow 5, and its hard to compete with that. Unless youre a Warrior on flat ground. However, thief actually cant make burst attempts more frequently (well, not ones that hit hard anyway). Assassins Signet has a 30 second cooldown. Mindwrack and mirror blade dont, and there are multiple ways to approach an instant burst combo. Also, no, the thief doesnt have more evades. D/P Thief has the standard 2 evades that core Mesmer also has, Withdraw, and Dagger Storm. Thats it. S/D might, but S/D also doesnt have any burst (and isnt good right now).

>

 

Often both stealth and blink are used much like how stealth and steal is used. This is better with the super speed, but that is something really only afforded to core and not mirage or chorno, which are the ones I'd argue needs buffs, not core.

 

But to compare mes to thief you don't really need assassin's signet to kill a squishly power build. You do if you want to one shot finish it, but even the more sturdy condi counterpart can't just eat a backstab. Even if it's not 100%, it's still a good 75-85% HP with either a heartseeker finish, or safely back into stealth, or one of the many access to blinds to stop a phant summon. If mes goes stealth, distance and out stealth will wear out the mesmer's options.

As for cooldowns; Mirror blade and Mind Wrack are nothing compared to backstab's 1 second recharge. Which sure requires stealth, but thief still has a lot of on demand access even after a whiff. A mesmer is far more locked out of options thanks to cooldowns.

 

As for evades you forgot disabling shot, and there is almost enough blind in there to count as a solid defensive option; But yes I was referring to S/D as the "more evade" alternative. Sure, it may not burst as hard in a single hit. But it sure as hell can out sustain any squishy burst build so long as it properly evades... Which it can well afforded to do so, not to mention the lenient and plentiful in combat mobility. Where as Mesmer only gets blurred frenzy and distortion to supplement, and distortion eats the entire resource pool.

 

> > There is no comparison. If you are a decent thief a shatter should never land, and phantasms should never hit you. Mesmer doesn't have enough to lock down that a thief can't escape from. You can endlessly pressure a mesmer's defensive options with stealth while also making their illusions useless, or can easily evade the highly telegraphed targeted damage. Also thief has the luxury to disengage at any time and come back, a mesmer is always exposed. Even with PU mesmer's stealth is limited and tied to long cooldowns. A mesmer's "effective HP" doesn't make a difference, it still is to squishy to sit there and take hits auto attacking, which are relatively weak. (lot of builds can shrug off free cast of Spatial Surge beam on a zerk build like it's nothing lol.)

> >

>

> This is however false. No matter how good a thief is, if a Mesmer oneshots you out of stealth, there was nothing you couldve done. Its your entire health exploding in .1 seconds. Just as a friendly reminder, the fastest recorded human reaction time is about .18 seconds. Youd need to be almost twice as fast at reacting, have no ping at all, and no input delay, to potentially be able to dodge. Its not physically possible. And the Mesmer can in fact ensure that it happens out of stealth. "Easily evade the highly telegraphed targetted damage". That you dont see because of stealth. Which is itself ignoring the fact that Shatter is instant.

>

 

A one shot out of stealth is just as avoidable as a backstab if not even more so. Mesmer ones shot requires a fairly precise distance to get the bounces (again not so bad to set up with super speed) and this is significantly slower without quickness. Literally good movement can delay the bounces throwing the whole thing off, and if you're good at anticipation you can dodge in place and avoid the whole thing like one would do for a backstab. If I can avoid Kronos and Short's one shot combos, (and historically supcutie's) you should be able to avoid any rando mes. Yes a thief may not have the HP to survive that hit, but it's a far cry easier to consistently avoid than the relentless attempts at backstabs.

Plus a back stab being front loaded to one button; only needing to land somewhere in a 180degree space with the saftey of re-stealth and teleports is far more forgiving than fickle bounces.

 

I hate the whole "you can't see anything in stealth argument"... At a certain point you have to anticipate and read your opponent. This is a factor even in fighting games where there are options you literally cannot react to visually.

 

I like to apply the martial arts philosophy of Seme when it comes to stealth, and the only reason I'd ever find thief OP by contrast to any other stealth burst (Mesmer, DH, old Holo[which had a different problem], or Maul ranger) is that thief can extend stealth for a really long time and when it disengages it's resources return much faster than any other builds cooldown...

 

(A tip to anyone here struggling to avoid GS shatters is calculating their stealth duration, their eagerness to hit you, and the 3/4 cast attached to mirrorblade... and knowing that if their stealth falls off they need to burn another cooldown to re-stealth or escape)

 

> "You can endless pressure a Mesmers defensive options with stealth". If the thief is using in-combat stealth, you just blow them up there. Entering stealth usually means BP or Smokescreen + Heartseeker. Which is such a long cast time, you can just explode the thief. Which is of course, why the thief wont do that. He will just switch to shortbow and peace out instead of fighting. Also, you think Mesmer is too squishy to sit there and take hits autoattacking (which is false, they have skills they can use), but you dont think that the Thief, with almost 30% less effective HP, isnt? Yeah that makes no sense.

>

 

If the mesmer doesn't have blink you can Smokescreen + HS pretty much anywhere you want. Even if they do have blink what are they going to do? Port to you get blinded so that mirror blade misses? or better yet the mindwrack? by the time either hits you alone you'll be in stealth and anywhere else you want to be. Mesmer's only significant free cast AoE is Chaos Storm, and once your in stealth illusions wont follow you, and once in stealth you can rinse and repeat with nothing really to stop you. But sure taking the short bow option is viable too. Ini refreshes a lot better than any cooldowns, so the mes that chases dies; and the mes who sits there loses pressure and if you return is still going to be recovering cooldowns from the last encounter.

 

and sure they have skills they can use... like what? the 0.7 coefficent mind stab?, or throwing out mirror blades at range? I mean the only other option is a phantasm which dies in cleave, oh and also ignores any thief you cast on once they stealth. Also I never said thief can just free cast, but thief does get the options to either evade spam or linger safely in stealth. Options infinitely safer.

 

by the by in terms of free casting if you take a power mes and a thief, GS vs Shortbow even standing on a anti-port location Short bow is going to win so long as you evade the phantasm.

 

> > Even if GS combo did hit harder (which it doesn't); at least it's via multiple cooldowns on a weapon kit being blown at the same time... and not some front loaded one shot like backstab- that is so safe you can just escape into stealth and try again, while your opponent is blowing defensive cooldowns in anticipation... where a thief can just extend the duration on a whim.

>

> The unreactable GS combo (short of any bugs which may or may not be fixed) hits almost *twice* as hard. Thats an undeniable fact. It hits *much* harder. And its also a frontloaded oneshot like backstab. Its also as safe as Backstab (remember, the D/P thief wont be able to stealth for 3 seconds, and has no defenses whatsoever. At least Mesmer has CC or Distortion).

>

> You had some good points, but they were sadly outnumbered by the simple falsehoods and misrepresentations that ultimately make the whole argument fall apart.

 

I disagree on the strength but okay, let's say I concede on the strength. They are both equally "unreactable" and I called that out above.

 

But how can you call a bunch of bounces and 3-5 separate cooldowns "front loaded"? We may be arguing terms here, but my point is that back stab is one button, with a cooldown of 1s in a game where missing, hitting a block, or whatever doesn't reveal you. yes- sure, you have to wait a moment before you stealth again, but between the plethora of escape options including shortbow evasion and ports, and other options like blinds that all together refresh much earlier than what mesmer gets, I hardly consider that inferior. Plus what use is distortion after a whiff, or even after a successful burst? 1 second for a massive 50 second cooldown?

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > Mesmer's burst combo comes from well spaced multiple bounces after blowing a lengthy 30 second cooldown to gap close using all it's resources to engage safely, leaving little to escape with.

> > >

> >

> > Blink is an option, but normally you just use stealth to engage. Additionally, even if you use Blink, thats not "all your resources". You still have a stunbreak, 2 forms of stealth, and various forms of superspeed.

> > > Thief by comparison is safe both engaging and escaping, can make burst attempts more frequently, not being tied to legnthy cooldowns on top of better in combat mobility, also ignoring LoS on the engagement; on top of having access to far more stealth or far more evade that is simply tied to weapon kits. (although evade also comes from a lot of endurance regen and DD compared to mirage get's 3 baseline to Mirage's 1.)

> > >

> >

> > Partially true. Thief is relatively safe in engaging since it just uses stealth to engage, but so does the Mesmer. Still, Thief *does* have shortbow 5, and its hard to compete with that. Unless youre a Warrior on flat ground. However, thief actually cant make burst attempts more frequently (well, not ones that hit hard anyway). Assassins Signet has a 30 second cooldown. Mindwrack and mirror blade dont, and there are multiple ways to approach an instant burst combo. Also, no, the thief doesnt have more evades. D/P Thief has the standard 2 evades that core Mesmer also has, Withdraw, and Dagger Storm. Thats it. S/D might, but S/D also doesnt have any burst (and isnt good right now).

> >

>

> Often both stealth and blink are used much like how stealth and steal is used. This is better with the super speed, but that is something really only afforded to core and not mirage or chorno, which are the ones I'd argue needs buffs, not core.

>

 

Steal is not actually usually used by D/P thief to close the gap most of the time. Messes up the back part of the backstab. Its pretty much just a small damage boost to the combo. You simply stealth up, then walk up. Same with Mesmer. Blink doesnt add damage, so that there isnt really much of a point to using it. As for Power Chrono or Mirage being less optimal than core, sure, I can agree with that, core has been the default go-to for shatter builds anyway. Condi Mirage seems to still do fine though, and its kinda supposed to be a condi traitline.

 

> But to compare mes to thief you don't really need assassin's signet to kill a squishly power build. You do if you want to one shot finish it, but even the more sturdy condi counterpart can't just eat a backstab. Even if it's not 100%, it's still a good 75-85% HP with either a heartseeker finish, or safely back into stealth, or one of the many access to blinds to stop a phant summon. If mes goes stealth, distance and out stealth will wear out the mesmer's options.

 

A thief doesnt really solo-kill a squishy on his own. Thats not the point of a D/P thief. Its a +1 class. It takes even fights and makes them uneven. Actually *oneshotting* is basically impossible, even with Assassins Signet and glassy builds. Its not 75%-85% for most builds. Depending on how much toughness you have, its usually 50% or less (unless youre zerkers, I suppose, which is more common now). There also isnt a way to "safely back into stealth". 3 seconds reveal time. Thats actually the main reason why its exclusively a +1 class. Its incredibly vulnerable after exiting stealth while lacking the damage to achieve any real oneshot. Also, blind does not stop a Mesmers phant summon. It stops the 12 vulnerability from Power Spike, but thats it.

 

> As for cooldowns; Mirror blade and Mind Wrack are nothing compared to backstab's 1 second recharge. Which sure requires stealth, but thief still has a lot of on demand access even after a whiff. A mesmer is far more locked out of options thanks to cooldowns.

>

 

The 1 second recharge is not the cooldown. The ways to access stealth, and assassins signet are. As well as revealed. Mainly assassins signet though, you lose a *huge* chunk of damage without it. And no, D/P thieves stealth is actually surprisingly limited. Normally after it stealthed up once to engage, its not going to have access to any stealth other than concealing restoration off of Withdraw. After 5 seconds it gets another way of entering stealth, and then the thief is locked out of stealth entirely for the next 15 seconds. And locked out of anything else for at least 5.

 

> As for evades you forgot disabling shot, and there is almost enough blind in there to count as a solid defensive option; But yes I was referring to S/D as the "more evade" alternative. Sure, it may not burst as hard in a single hit. But it sure as hell can out sustain any squishy burst build so long as it properly evades... Which it can well afforded to do so, not to mention the lenient and plentiful in combat mobility. Where as Mesmer only gets blurred frenzy and distortion to supplement, and distortion eats the entire resource pool.

>

 

Disabling shot requires the thief to switch to shortbow, which is a weapon that does so little damage that the Mesmer should have no trouble crushing the thief. It would also require the thief to swap to shortbow, but not use it to run away, which is itself a mistake. As for S/D, its not good, as I said. And the reason is because its damage is low while its capabilities for dealing with CC got significantly worse, and people are swapping to low-cast time CC that cant be dodged nowadays. In a fight against Mesmer, it can dodge well, but it severely lacks damage.

 

> > > There is no comparison. If you are a decent thief a shatter should never land, and phantasms should never hit you. Mesmer doesn't have enough to lock down that a thief can't escape from. You can endlessly pressure a mesmer's defensive options with stealth while also making their illusions useless, or can easily evade the highly telegraphed targeted damage. Also thief has the luxury to disengage at any time and come back, a mesmer is always exposed. Even with PU mesmer's stealth is limited and tied to long cooldowns. A mesmer's "effective HP" doesn't make a difference, it still is to squishy to sit there and take hits auto attacking, which are relatively weak. (lot of builds can shrug off free cast of Spatial Surge beam on a zerk build like it's nothing lol.)

> > >

> >

> > This is however false. No matter how good a thief is, if a Mesmer oneshots you out of stealth, there was nothing you couldve done. Its your entire health exploding in .1 seconds. Just as a friendly reminder, the fastest recorded human reaction time is about .18 seconds. Youd need to be almost twice as fast at reacting, have no ping at all, and no input delay, to potentially be able to dodge. Its not physically possible. And the Mesmer can in fact ensure that it happens out of stealth. "Easily evade the highly telegraphed targetted damage". That you dont see because of stealth. Which is itself ignoring the fact that Shatter is instant.

> >

>

> A one shot out of stealth is just as avoidable as a backstab if not even more so. Mesmer ones shot requires a fairly precise distance to get the bounces (again not so bad to set up with super speed) and this is significantly slower without quickness. Literally good movement can delay the bounces throwing the whole thing off, and if you're good at anticipation you can dodge in place and avoid the whole thing like one would do for a backstab. If I can avoid Kronos and Short's one shot combos, (and historically supcutie's) you should be able to avoid any rando mes. Yes a thief may not have the HP to survive that hit, but it's a far cry easier to consistently avoid than the relentless attempts at backstabs.

 

Its just as avoidable as a backstab. Which is to say, not at all. It happens out of stealth, within less time than the fastest known human reaction time, and without any way of being able to predict precisely *when* it will hit. And no, the option of moving doesnt really help, the bounces if set up properly happen instantly. You die before you can even more any reasonable amount.

 

> Plus a back stab being front loaded to one button; only needing to land somewhere in a 180degree space with the saftey of re-stealth and teleports is far more forgiving than fickle bounces.

>

 

Id argue 180 degrees and in melee are less limiting than just in melee. Also, I dont know why you keep going "safety of re-stealth". Stealth is extremely poor safety, and the only one the thief can use is Concealing restoration, by burning withdraw. Thats not safety. All thief has is Shortbow 5, but once you switch to shortbow, you have to commit, and you do so by running away as any good thief will.

 

> I hate the whole "you can't see anything in stealth argument"... At a certain point you have to anticipate and read your opponent. This is a factor even in fighting games where there are options you literally cannot react to visually.

>

 

There is no way to read your opponent when theyre in stealth (assuming you even know *theyre there* in the first place, which is the big issue, the builds kill you before youre even aware the player was there), but ontop of that, I dont know what fighting games youre playing, but I cannot think of any such options in BBTAG, BBCF, GGXRD Rev 2 or UNIST that you cant visually react to, that arent simply unblockable setups that you, well, cant react to at all. Unless you refer to the moves with identical appearance but different potential hitbox, but even in those you have options.

 

> I like to apply the martial arts philosophy of Seme when it comes to stealth, and the only reason I'd ever find thief OP by contrast to any other stealth burst (Mesmer, DH, old Holo[which had a different problem], or Maul ranger) is that thief can extend stealth for a really long time and when it disengages it's resources return much faster than any other builds cooldown...

>

 

> (A tip to anyone here struggling to avoid GS shatters is calculating their stealth duration, their eagerness to hit you, and the 3/4 cast attached to mirrorblade... and knowing that if their stealth falls off they need to burn another cooldown to re-stealth or escape)

>

> > "You can endless pressure a Mesmers defensive options with stealth". If the thief is using in-combat stealth, you just blow them up there. Entering stealth usually means BP or Smokescreen + Heartseeker. Which is such a long cast time, you can just explode the thief. Which is of course, why the thief wont do that. He will just switch to shortbow and peace out instead of fighting. Also, you think Mesmer is too squishy to sit there and take hits autoattacking (which is false, they have skills they can use), but you dont think that the Thief, with almost 30% less effective HP, isnt? Yeah that makes no sense.

> >

>

> If the mesmer doesn't have blink you can Smokescreen + HS pretty much anywhere you want. Even if they do have blink what are they going to do? Port to you get blinded so that mirror blade misses? or better yet the mindwrack? by the time either hits you alone you'll be in stealth and anywhere else you want to be. Mesmer's only significant free cast AoE is Chaos Storm, and once your in stealth illusions wont follow you, and once in stealth you can rinse and repeat with nothing really to stop you. But sure taking the short bow option is viable too. Ini refreshes a lot better than any cooldowns, so the mes that chases dies; and the mes who sits there loses pressure and if you return is still going to be recovering cooldowns from the last encounter.

>

 

Assuming the Mesmer doesnt simply interrupt the smoke-screen (doable, its 0.5 seconds cast time, and it has a pretty clear visual cue), thats when you drop the Phantasmal Berserker on them, they track through stealth after all, and they hit real hard. Hell, you can even do the same burst combo if you time it with their heartseeker (you dont need to jump into the smokescreen, the thief isnt going to stay in the smokescreen himself after all).

 

Actually, there is a lot to stop you. If youre in stealth, the only way to extend stealth is BP + Heartseeker. You dont see the thief so targetted skills arent an option, but even throwing out some damage like Mind Stab will put the thief under a lot of pressure, and they cant immediately fight back because they wont have initiative. Also, not exactly. Initiative recharges a lot *worse* than regular weapon skills, with a full recharge of initiative being 25 seconds, while none of Mesmers weapon skills other than the Prestige recharge longer, and most recharge in half the time. You could make a case for utility skills, but then the comparision would be utility skill vs utility skill, and Thieves utility skills actually have a longer recharge time (Shadowsteps 50 seconds vs Blinks 35, Roll for Initiatives 50 vs Decoys 45, and the Mantra doesnt even have a cooldown.). So, no, actually, the Mesmers cooldown will be almost all recharged by the time the thief returns.

 

> and sure they have skills they can use... like what? the 0.7 coefficent mind stab?, or throwing out mirror blades at range? I mean the only other option is a phantasm which dies in cleave, oh and also ignores any thief you cast on once they stealth. Also I never said thief can just free cast, but thief does get the options to either evade spam or linger safely in stealth. Options infinitely safer.

>

 

A D/P thief does not have cleave, and in fact, any attempt at hitting it will just drop them out of stealth. Which is to say nothing of thieves damage being lacking for dealing with phantasms. And no, thief doesnt have the option to "evade spam". If the thief engaged with a backstab, he gets *1* evade, and then nothing for 8 seconds.

 

> by the by in terms of free casting if you take a power mes and a thief, GS vs Shortbow even standing on a anti-port location Short bow is going to win so long as you evade the phantasm.

>

 

Spatial Surge does more damage than Trick Shot. Detonate cluster is incredibly slow and avoidable, while Mind Stab is fast and much harder to avoid. Thief doesnt have anything other than Cluster bomb to use else, while Greatsword still has Mirror Blade (which isnt terribly great but its *something* ) and Phantasmal berserker. I dont know why you think Shortbow would win this fight, but no, it wouldnt. It loses *miserably*, as the thief can take less damage and does less than half the damage.

 

> > > Even if GS combo did hit harder (which it doesn't); at least it's via multiple cooldowns on a weapon kit being blown at the same time... and not some front loaded one shot like backstab- that is so safe you can just escape into stealth and try again, while your opponent is blowing defensive cooldowns in anticipation... where a thief can just extend the duration on a whim.

> >

> > The unreactable GS combo (short of any bugs which may or may not be fixed) hits almost *twice* as hard. Thats an undeniable fact. It hits *much* harder. And its also a frontloaded oneshot like backstab. Its also as safe as Backstab (remember, the D/P thief wont be able to stealth for 3 seconds, and has no defenses whatsoever. At least Mesmer has CC or Distortion).

> >

> > You had some good points, but they were sadly outnumbered by the simple falsehoods and misrepresentations that ultimately make the whole argument fall apart.

>

> I disagree on the strength but okay, let's say I concede on the strength. They are both equally "unreactable" and I called that out above.

>

> But how can you call a bunch of bounces and 3-5 separate cooldowns "front loaded"? We may be arguing terms here, but my point is that back stab is one button, with a cooldown of 1s in a game where missing, hitting a block, or whatever doesn't reveal you. yes- sure, you have to wait a moment before you stealth again, but between the plethora of escape options including shortbow evasion and ports, and other options like blinds that all together refresh much earlier than what mesmer gets, I hardly consider that inferior. Plus what use is distortion after a whiff, or even after a successful burst? 1 second for a massive 50 second cooldown?

 

Its frontloaded in that it all happens in an instant. Whether its one button hitting in .1 seconds, or 5, that doesnt really make a difference. The burst will succeed either way, thats the point. Now, if the burst fails, then Thief gets one more try in 5 seconds, and then wont get another one for 15 seconds. Indeed, in those 15 seconds the thief is a sitting duck, with no defense or offense. Whereas the Mesmer, if he fails, he can just throw out Mind Stab and Berserker for some damage, then swap to Sword and use it for a bit before Mirror Blade and Mind Wrack recharge.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

core mes can still 1 hit ko from stealth

needs more nerfing

[Senqu.8054]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > @"Odik.4587"

> >

> > Getting banned in 3...2...1!

>

> Simply calling truth that hurts by itself should not get you banned. No insult included here.

> Btw i can't believe you guys still respond to him...

 

We played Mesmer for 7 years. If we are not the master of ZEN i don’t know who it is.

 

I guess uno just represents or better sums up the whole situation Mesmers are currently in. All his arguments are like „well in my fantasy this should counter that“. It’s the same thing with the one dodge nerf. In the fantasy of this Community it’s just one dodge less without any other consequences but we need to explain it again and again that we have to spam it now off cd .

[bravan.3876]

> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587"

> > >

> > > Getting banned in 3...2...1!

> >

> > Simply calling truth that hurts by itself should not get you banned. No insult included here.

> > Btw i can't believe you guys still respond to him...

>

> We played Mesmer for 7 years. If we are not the master of ZEN i don’t know who it is.

>

> I guess uno just represents or better sums up the whole situation Mesmers are currently in. All his arguments are like „well in my fantasy this should counter that“. It’s the same thing with the one dodge nerf. In the fantasy of this Community it’s just one dodge less without any other consequences but we need to explain it again and again that we have to spam it now off cd .

 

But as you can see, it rly leads to nowhere. This is going since days. Some ppl tryhard to not see truth and at some point it is rly just a waste of time. I mean it is up to you all guys to continue if you have nothing better to do (it is not that i also try very long to talk to ppl and explain stuff long and detailed, so i am guilty of that time waste often enough too), but this conversation can't hardly be beaten in nonsenseness anymore.

 

Maybe you guys need a calm down exit, let me try to give one: I haven't rly read any of the last pages (after i started to simply ignore this guy) but from skimming your answers to UNOsomething, you guys seems to talk about who has more brust dmg/ dmg overall? Without doing any math (so i might be wrong) i would assume that Mesmer sure has some more burst spike dmg than Thief (ofc also needs way more buttons for that more dmg and the oneshot clearly is harderr to hit and harder to do because it needs way more buttons pressed very fast in the right order and right timing) but that Mesmer has less dps over a longer time.

But that is not even the point, even WHEN Mesmer has more burst dmg it still gets hardcountered by Thief because Thief has like 30 strengths in compensation for that bit less burst dmg. As Daishy explained very well for example the way higher infight mobility, max range instant ports through walls, way more active sustain incl. dodges and weaponskill evades etc. The whole math about dmg is per se completely irrelevant for any point any of you guys want to make in a Thief vs Mesmer perspective. Thief is a mechanical hardcoutner not a dmg-hardcounter.

 

Also why you guys even care, let him get oneshotted out of 3 second stealth because he will not accept and learn any counterplay and everyone who not get oneshotted by a non PU-stealthspam Mesmer all day long just never met a good Powermesmer like he does all day in silver/ gold because self-fulfilling assumptions are facts in his world. He is the one with the problem not you.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"bravan.3876" it started because a thief said mesmer could burst for 14k+ and I said you could do that with a backstab too with much less effort.

I was wrong yadda yadda, backstab does only 5k damage.

So I with a couple of friends went into arena, one of this friends put on a build in some seconds and the screenshots were born.

It was all fabricated, it was impossible to do that damage, I'm a liar, etc, noodle comes in with math skills proves you can in fact do that damage.

 

TLDR: this was all a smartkitten getting kittenhurt because thief can do even a higher burst than mesmers and trying to debunked it with bad calculations.

 

Just one more thing. You don't need to dodge 3 times to do that shadowshot damage.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> @"bravan.3876" it started because a thief said mesmer could burst for 14k+ and I said you could do that with a backstab too with much less effort.

> I was wrong yadda yadda, backstab does only 5k damage.

> So I with a couple of friends went into arena, one of this friends put on a build in some seconds and the screenshots were born.

> It was all fabricated, it was impossible to do that damage, I'm a liar, etc, noodle comes in with math skills proves you can in fact do that damage.

>

> TLDR: this was all a smartkitten getting kittenhurt because thief can do even a higher burst than mesmers and trying to debunked it with bad calculations.

>

> Just one more thing. You don't need to dodge 3 times to do that shadowshot damage.

 

Not just tripling, but quadrupling down on your lie. You really should know when to quit. Anyway, you said that, and then failed to prove it, with the only backstab example that hit anywhere *close* to Mesmers burst being a fully stacked malicious backstab (which is in fact much *more* effort. Whoops).

 

And yes, the screenshots were fabricated. That has been extensively proven. Noodle didnt prove that you could do that damage, he actually proved that you couldnt.

 

"this was all a ~~smartkitten~~ player who dares to doubt getting ~~kittenhurt~~ bored by your pathetic attempts to lie because thief ~~can do even a higher burst~~ cant even burst nearly as hard (which you proved yourself since even your triple dodge havoc mastery backstab was 6k less damage than Mesmers 19k burst) than mesmers and ~~trying to debunked it with bad calculations~~ successfully debunking it with correct and infallible calculations." There, fixed it for you.

 

No, you dont, because you were Deadeye and not using Havoc Mastery. You just need to stack might or vulnerability, or ask the Mesmer to take off parts of their armour. Oh but you cant do that shadowshot damage without doing one of those things, that has been extensively proven.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587"

> > >

> > > Getting banned in 3...2...1!

> >

> > Simply calling truth that hurts by itself should not get you banned. No insult included here.

> > Btw i can't believe you guys still respond to him...

>

> We played Mesmer for 7 years. If we are not the master of ZEN i don’t know who it is.

>

> I guess uno just represents or better sums up the whole situation Mesmers are currently in. All his arguments are like „well in my fantasy this should counter that“. It’s the same thing with the one dodge nerf. In the fantasy of this Community it’s just one dodge less without any other consequences but we need to explain it again and again that we have to spam it now off cd .

 

I do have to say, as time goes on, the name of Mesmer traits just get more and more poignant. Egotism. Illusion of Vulnerability. Desperate Decoy. Self-Deception. *Superiority Complex*. Its like Anet knew these names would become oh so fitting in the end. Im sorry to say, but the only one living in a fantasy is you.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> I do have to say, as time goes on, the name of Mesmer traits just get more and more poignant. Egotism. Illusion of Vulnerability. Desperate Decoy. Self-Deception. *Superiority Complex*. Its like Anet knew these names would become oh so fitting in the end. Im sorry to say, but the only one living in a fantasy is you.

 

idk man you are talking mad stuff for a person using Trickery.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > I do have to say, as time goes on, the name of Mesmer traits just get more and more poignant. Egotism. Illusion of Vulnerability. Desperate Decoy. Self-Deception. *Superiority Complex*. Its like Anet knew these names would become oh so fitting in the end. Im sorry to say, but the only one living in a fantasy is you.

>

> idk man you are talking mad stuff for a person using Trickery.

 

I mean for one, I dont. I only play one thief build in WvW sometimes (its my only geared character), and that build doesnt use trickery. But just to go along with the metaphor, as you can tell from the traitnames within trickery, it refers to physical trickery. Sleight of Hand. Misdirection. Prestidigitation. You know, the usual magician kinda stuff. Now I actually kinda want thief to have a utility skill category that is just him performing cardistry.