a plea for 3rd expac

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

>

> Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

 

this is true but i'm not worried as anet has made some awesome specs. there isn't one spec that I inherently dislike based on design, they're all very well done imo. the numbers seem skewed for pve it seems to me (classes weren't designed with competitive in mind) but with this new balance team maybe my fears are all in vain. we shall see.

 

edit

well there is some dumb stuff like herald boon spam and deadeye nonsense but its kinda under the rug at this point.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

>

> Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

 

Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> >

> > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

>

> this is true but i'm not worried as anet has made some awesome specs. there isn't one spec that I inherently dislike based on design, they're all very well done imo. the numbers seem skewed for pve it seems to me but with this new balance team maybe my fears are all in vain. we shall see.

>

> edit

> well there is some dumb stuff like herald boon spam and deadeye nonsense but its kinda under the rug at this point.

 

Disagree. Dragon Hunter and Renegade are inherently lame, like on a foundation fundamental thematic design. Weaver never lived up to the spell sword magic knight potential I think everyone wanted to see from Elementalists getting sword even if it did find a decent gameplay niche later on in Path of Fire.

 

Obviously I think there are right ways and wrong ways to approach elite specializations. I've said before that if the capabilities of a core profession look something like this;

 


 

Elite specializations should in turn be altering the capabilities of the class like this;

 


 

Not like this.

 


 

Generally, elite specs should be more focused in their capabilities, the way druid makes ranger have higher healing and support potential but taking druid inherently lowers your potential damage dealing capabilies. Or Berserker which boosts your damage dealing capabilities but at the expense of defense. We don't want elite specializations like Holosmith, Firebrand, and Mirage that just net buff literally every aspect of the profession's capabilities with no regard to things like niches, strengths and weaknesses.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> snips

 

I don't disagree, my post was worded poorly. I meant that the numbers are skewed for competitive modes cuz it seems that the especs were made for pve.

[Ithilwen.1529]

If I could make a request of the ANET team for the expac:

 

Please make the new Mesmer spec playable without Melee or a requirement of very high reaction time / bps. Not everyone is a 20 y/o male with the matching reflexes and reaction time.

 

**There's nothing wrong with a spec being easy to play.**

 

Did I play Mirage or Chrono? Yes, I played Chrono before the big nerf. I found Mirage unplayable because of the speed required.

 

Right now I am trying power shatter... getting out of my comfort zone and being called "trash" or outright laughed at every match.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> If I could make a request of the ANET team for the expac:

>

> Please make the new Mesmer spec playable without Melee or a requirement of very high reaction time / bps. Not everyone is a 20 y/o male with the matching reflexes and reaction time.

>

> **There's nothing wrong with a spec being easy to play.**

>

> Did I play Mirage or Chrono? Yes, I played Chrono before the big nerf. I found Mirage unplayable because of the speed required.

>

> Right now I am trying power shatter... getting out of my comfort zone and being called "trash" or outright laughed at every match.

 

There are enough other classes in the game with per se easier and more forgiving mechanics and sustain. Why not just play one of those? Mesmer is a class with insanely high active outplay potential, when it also has noobfriedly stuff on top of that it will always be an insane balance issue. Mesmer only is balanced when it is hard to play because of that. High skill requirement is a trade of Mesmer class needs.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> >

> > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

>

> Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

 

You miss a point. PvP population is suffering, in part because a typical PvE player isn't skilled enough to walk into PvP.

 

**Those "noob" players represent the population ANET is trying to recruit for PvP.**

 

The game is suffering because it's excessively difficult to play.

 

I'd also wager that those "bad" players spend more money on the game than a typical PvP player.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> > >

> > > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

> >

> > Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

>

> You miss a point. PvP population is suffering, in part because a typical PvE player isn't skilled enough to walk into PvP.

> Those "bad" players represent the population ANET is trying to recruit for PvP.

>

> The game is suffering because it's excessively difficult to play.

>

> I'd also wager that those "bad" players spend more money on the game than a typical PvP player.

 

Making competitive modes less competitive by dumbing down classes is not the way. Ppl just need to stop to be lazy, watch some guides and improve. Instead wasting time in forum to complain about stuff they should easy beat with their way lamer builds. Some PvE reward chaser not interested in the gamemode itself and not interested in getting good in PvP are no ppl will help to make competitive gamemodes any better/enjoyable. If you want to feel like a god without having any skill and still gets rewarded for that, than PvE is rly the only place you belong. In competitive gamemodes the driving aspect is, that you reward skill and only skill. Not time investment (aside from skill improvment), not grinding, just skill. If you cannot accept that you get less reward when you are worse than others skillwise then you are not a competitive player. Also it is not like that for slower and lower skilled ppl aren't enough classes available for an easier life or start. There are at least 5 out of 9 classes very slow reaction time, mistake and for that beginner friendly. That is more than enough, you cannot demand that you can choose out of 9 from 9 classes to fit low skill lvl. Some classes need to have for serveral reasons (as i just explained in previous post) a higher skill requirement. Mesmer is one of them.

Better ask Anet to add ingame tutorials and better access to guides on related fansides and youtube to increase skill lvl and improvement speed of new players instead dumbing down classes. No PvP oriented game does that. If you are new you get wrecked hard at start, you either learn or you stop playing, most ppl start to learn when they have to go the hard way, that is why PvP oriented games are successful while having pretty high skill floor. We lost more player and in particular the good ones (and with that most of competitiveness) due to stale and low skilled meta for ages.

If your skill lvl is silver you should stay in silver and not get carried to plat by a braindead build. Sorry to be that clear.

 

Also Anet needs to add more and better rewards (sadly because for me kicking asses because being better is rewarding enough but other ppl still need additional carrot in front of their nose for whatever reasons, though:), add good /legendary rewards but not grindable, only rewarding skill and not time investment directly.

[Avatar.3568]

I agree with bravan, dumbing down classes are bringing nothing, games like csgo, starcraft or whatever typ of these, are living from skill.

If you remember the release of the R8 revolver in csgo, you will see that 1 dumbed down weapon, the community explode in minutes because the skill curve was from hard learning to just one shot with easy to hit weapon.

 

Same thing in guildwars 2, if you dumb down classes, pvp Player stop playing, maybe some Pve reward grinder start, but only until they got there rewards and than Pvp is completely dead.

Also most of the Pve player will not start pvp because "no that's nothing for me" dumbing down will not help at all to the mijority.

Even now there are many players who play pvp just for getting the legendary armor and than "never ever again".

[primatos.5413]

Infight weapon swap ele inc!!!

[Stand The Wall.6987]

rewards are a bit of a double edged sword. if there are exclusive skins or titles and whatnot, you will get ppl chasing those with no regard for the mode. it will draw ppl in tho. I guess the best deterrent to farmers is to make these rewards exclusive to winning. relegate grinding to pve. then you have match manipulation... idk.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> > > >

> > > > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

> > >

> > > Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

> >

> > You miss a point. PvP population is suffering, in part because a typical PvE player isn't skilled enough to walk into PvP.

> > Those "bad" players represent the population ANET is trying to recruit for PvP.

> >

> > The game is suffering because it's excessively difficult to play.

> >

> > I'd also wager that those "bad" players spend more money on the game than a typical PvP player.

>

> Making competitive modes less competitive by dumbing down classes is not the way. Ppl just need to stop to be lazy, watch some guides and improve. Instead wasting time in forum to complain about stuff they should easy beat with their way lamer builds. Some PvE reward chaser not interested in the gamemode itself and not interested in getting good in PvP are no ppl will help to make competitive gamemodes any better/enjoyable. If you want to feel like a god without having any skill and still gets rewarded for that, than PvE is rly the only place you belong. In competitive gamemodes the driving aspect is, that you reward skill and only skill. Not time investment (aside from skill improvment), not grinding, just skill. If you cannot accept that you get less reward when you are worse than others skillwise then you are not a competitive player. Also it is not like that for slower and lower skilled ppl aren't enough classes available for an easier life or start. There are at least 5 out of 9 classes very slow reaction time, mistake and for that beginner friendly. That is more than enough, you cannot demand that you can choose out of 9 from 9 classes to fit low skill lvl. Some classes need to have for serveral reasons (as i just explained in previous post) a higher skill requirement. Mesmer is one of them.

> Better ask Anet to add ingame tutorials and better access to guides on related fansides and youtube to increase skill lvl and improvement speed of new players instead dumbing down classes. No PvP oriented game does that. If you are new you get wrecked hard at start, you either learn or you stop playing, most ppl start to learn when they have to go the hard way, that is why PvP oriented games are successful while having pretty high skill floor. We lost more player and in particular the good ones (and with that most of competitiveness) due to stale and low skilled meta for ages.

> If your skill lvl is silver you should stay in silver and not get carried to plat by a braindead build. Sorry to be that clear.

>

> Also Anet needs to add more and better rewards (sadly because for me kicking kitten because being better is rewarding enough but other ppl still need additional carrot in front of their nose for whatever reasons, though:), add good /legendary rewards but not grindable, only rewarding skill and not time investment directly.

 

We always had "skilled" builds like dunno...FA core ele , builds where you could be easily dealt with by any semi decent player...it's the reason why that build never featured in the meta section...somehow the "skillful" build all "top" players rave about are always about huge dmg on low CD coming from build with plethora of disengage and inbuilt defensive options.

 

Your definition of "skillful" build is quite skewed...because "skilled" players always played meta and ...meta builds become such for overall lack of clear counterplay at basic skill level meaning the average guy playing meta build will always sit on the face of average player playing non meta class.

 

Any argument of "skillful" gameplay does not apply in a MMO with 9 different professions and several skills....that kind of argument would count in a game where every player can only pick a single class and a same set of skill....Build wars is not skilled gameplay...period.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

> > > >

> > > > Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

> > >

> > > You miss a point. PvP population is suffering, in part because a typical PvE player isn't skilled enough to walk into PvP.

> > > Those "bad" players represent the population ANET is trying to recruit for PvP.

> > >

> > > The game is suffering because it's excessively difficult to play.

> > >

> > > I'd also wager that those "bad" players spend more money on the game than a typical PvP player.

> >

> > Making competitive modes less competitive by dumbing down classes is not the way. Ppl just need to stop to be lazy, watch some guides and improve. Instead wasting time in forum to complain about stuff they should easy beat with their way lamer builds. Some PvE reward chaser not interested in the gamemode itself and not interested in getting good in PvP are no ppl will help to make competitive gamemodes any better/enjoyable. If you want to feel like a god without having any skill and still gets rewarded for that, than PvE is rly the only place you belong. In competitive gamemodes the driving aspect is, that you reward skill and only skill. Not time investment (aside from skill improvment), not grinding, just skill. If you cannot accept that you get less reward when you are worse than others skillwise then you are not a competitive player. Also it is not like that for slower and lower skilled ppl aren't enough classes available for an easier life or start. There are at least 5 out of 9 classes very slow reaction time, mistake and for that beginner friendly. That is more than enough, you cannot demand that you can choose out of 9 from 9 classes to fit low skill lvl. Some classes need to have for serveral reasons (as i just explained in previous post) a higher skill requirement. Mesmer is one of them.

> > Better ask Anet to add ingame tutorials and better access to guides on related fansides and youtube to increase skill lvl and improvement speed of new players instead dumbing down classes. No PvP oriented game does that. If you are new you get wrecked hard at start, you either learn or you stop playing, most ppl start to learn when they have to go the hard way, that is why PvP oriented games are successful while having pretty high skill floor. We lost more player and in particular the good ones (and with that most of competitiveness) due to stale and low skilled meta for ages.

> > If your skill lvl is silver you should stay in silver and not get carried to plat by a braindead build. Sorry to be that clear.

> >

> > Also Anet needs to add more and better rewards (sadly because for me kicking kitten because being better is rewarding enough but other ppl still need additional carrot in front of their nose for whatever reasons, though:), add good /legendary rewards but not grindable, only rewarding skill and not time investment directly.

>

> We always had "skilled" builds like dunno...FA core ele , builds where you could be easily dealt with by any semi decent player...it's the reason why that build never featured in the meta section...somehow the "skillful" build all "top" players rave about are always about huge dmg on low CD coming from build with plethora of disengage and inbuilt defensive options.

>

> Your definition of "skillful" build is quite skewed...because "skilled" players always played meta and ...meta builds become such for overall lack of clear counterplay at basic skill level meaning the average guy playing meta build will always sit on the face of average player playing non meta class.

>

> Any argument of "skillful" gameplay does not apply in a MMO with 9 different professions and several skills....that kind of argument would count in a game where every player can only pick a single class and a same set of skill....Build wars is not skilled gameplay...period.

 

I am not talking about skilled player i am talking about balance that make skilled builds meta (you are right nothing we had in GW2 since HoT release, one reason the skill lvl in the game on all PvP rank lvls decreased so heavily over the last years, not to mention all the wannabe good special snowflakes thinking they are at least the best of the rest for no good reasons).

 

But the player i responded to even ask for giving bad players even more braindead builds to compete with better players and that on classes like Mesmer, which get very toxic very fast when providing lame builds on top of the insane active outplay potential Mesmer has on mechanical lvl. And as you can see in every successful PvP orientated game they do not balance for bad players, they do not reward simple grind. Casual game or not that doesn't make sense in competitive gamemodes.

 

I want a skillful meta in GW2, at least a more skillful meta we had since years and that is possible when you balance classes by deleting and reworking passives and low skill ceiling traits/skills. And stop nonsense changes like the one dodge change on Mirage or the pet swap deletion on Ranger which delete skill ceiling without even solving any balance issues some playstyles on those specs have. I mean it would be enough to Hot fix quite obvious outliners wich are atm still Necro no matter what spec, Eles (yes including Tempests), FB, Condirev, Ranger. But you also have still sleeping builds like for example on Warrior, some tanky, power but also condi orientated builds i will not spreed out.

 

Devs with knowledge and balance experience should be able to see outliners in traits/skills and synergies by simply looking at it (ofc not while doing a big rework on all classes as with last patch, but now they should be able to see stuff more in detail again already), at least at the peak of brokenness, when even players can do that. Most stuff we had for ages in the game were so obiously broken right from a theoretical look at it based on simple balance logic, that it was unbelievable how long it didn't get fixed after it even was quite visible in praxis ingame when finally was used on meta builds (for example old CI trait on Mesmer should have never existed in the game at all, no matter that it never saw big uses outside of some niche hotjoin players before it became meta). And i mean fixed in a way it will NOT just be deleted from the game by making it completely useless but by either nerfing or reworking it into something that produce the need and the incentive of skillful plays to make it work.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> anet pls don't make op elite specs that break competitive modes again.

 

+1

PLEASE.

Work with the design team closely on this. think about how the new fantastic skills they create for maximum flash impact pvp, where we use them against other human players.

Make sure those skills transfer well to competitive before release, -while you work on the xpack.-

 

Assuming there's new elites at all.

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

> > > >

> > > > Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

> > >

> > > You miss a point. PvP population is suffering, in part because a typical PvE player isn't skilled enough to walk into PvP.

> > > Those "bad" players represent the population ANET is trying to recruit for PvP.

> > >

> > > The game is suffering because it's excessively difficult to play.

> > >

> > > I'd also wager that those "bad" players spend more money on the game than a typical PvP player.

> >

> > Making competitive modes less competitive by dumbing down classes is not the way. Ppl just need to stop to be lazy, watch some guides and improve. Instead wasting time in forum to complain about stuff they should easy beat with their way lamer builds. Some PvE reward chaser not interested in the gamemode itself and not interested in getting good in PvP are no ppl will help to make competitive gamemodes any better/enjoyable. If you want to feel like a god without having any skill and still gets rewarded for that, than PvE is rly the only place you belong. In competitive gamemodes the driving aspect is, that you reward skill and only skill. Not time investment (aside from skill improvment), not grinding, just skill. If you cannot accept that you get less reward when you are worse than others skillwise then you are not a competitive player. Also it is not like that for slower and lower skilled ppl aren't enough classes available for an easier life or start. There are at least 5 out of 9 classes very slow reaction time, mistake and for that beginner friendly. That is more than enough, you cannot demand that you can choose out of 9 from 9 classes to fit low skill lvl. Some classes need to have for serveral reasons (as i just explained in previous post) a higher skill requirement. Mesmer is one of them.

> > Better ask Anet to add ingame tutorials and better access to guides on related fansides and youtube to increase skill lvl and improvement speed of new players instead dumbing down classes. No PvP oriented game does that. If you are new you get wrecked hard at start, you either learn or you stop playing, most ppl start to learn when they have to go the hard way, that is why PvP oriented games are successful while having pretty high skill floor. We lost more player and in particular the good ones (and with that most of competitiveness) due to stale and low skilled meta for ages.

> > If your skill lvl is silver you should stay in silver and not get carried to plat by a braindead build. Sorry to be that clear.

> >

> > Also Anet needs to add more and better rewards (sadly because for me kicking kitten because being better is rewarding enough but other ppl still need additional carrot in front of their nose for whatever reasons, though:), add good /legendary rewards but not grindable, only rewarding skill and not time investment directly.

>

> We always had "skilled" builds like dunno...FA core ele , builds where you could be easily dealt with by any semi decent player...it's the reason why that build never featured in the meta section...somehow the "skillful" build all "top" players rave about are always about huge dmg on low CD coming from build with plethora of disengage and inbuilt defensive options.

>

> Your definition of "skillful" build is quite skewed...because "skilled" players always played meta and ...meta builds become such for overall lack of clear counterplay at basic skill level meaning the average guy playing meta build will always sit on the face of average player playing non meta class.

>

> Any argument of "skillful" gameplay does not apply in a MMO with 9 different professions and several skills....that kind of argument would count in a game where every player can only pick a single class and a same set of skill....Build wars is not skilled gameplay...period.

 

there is difference between skilled and strong

if perfectly played mesmer is equally strong to perfectly played necro, but necro is easy to play.

then for perspective of winning there is no reason to play mesmer.

something can be strong and skillfull and still not be played becouse unskilled build can be as strong.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> there is difference between skilled and strong

> if perfectly played mesmer is equally strong to perfectly played necro, but necro is easy to play.

> then for perspective of winning there is no reason to play mesmer.

> something can be strong and skillfull and still not be played becouse unskilled build can be as strong.

 

This is well said. I hope that ANET will consider making a relatively easy to play Mesmer variant.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > there is difference between skilled and strong

> > if perfectly played mesmer is equally strong to perfectly played necro, but necro is easy to play.

> > then for perspective of winning there is no reason to play mesmer.

> > something can be strong and skillfull and still not be played becouse unskilled build can be as strong.

>

> This is well said. I hope that ANET will consider making a relatively easy to play Mesmer variant.

No just make less skilled builds less strong when played on same skill lvl or make them harder to play and equally strong when played on same skill lvl. Whatever you prefer. Just in no case dumb down classes even more.

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > there is difference between skilled and strong

> > > if perfectly played mesmer is equally strong to perfectly played necro, but necro is easy to play.

> > > then for perspective of winning there is no reason to play mesmer.

> > > something can be strong and skillfull and still not be played becouse unskilled build can be as strong.

> >

> > This is well said. I hope that ANET will consider making a relatively easy to play Mesmer variant.

> No just make less skilled builds less strong when played on same skill lvl or make them harder to play and equally strong when played on same skill lvl. Whatever you prefer. Just in no case dumb down classes even more.

 

This stance may seem "cool." **However, I think that the latest patch is a clear signal that ANET understands that the game has become too "hardcore" for it's own good.**

There is nothing wrong with a more forgiving Mesmer spec.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > there is difference between skilled and strong

> > > > if perfectly played mesmer is equally strong to perfectly played necro, but necro is easy to play.

> > > > then for perspective of winning there is no reason to play mesmer.

> > > > something can be strong and skillfull and still not be played becouse unskilled build can be as strong.

> > >

> > > This is well said. I hope that ANET will consider making a relatively easy to play Mesmer variant.

> > No just make less skilled builds less strong when played on same skill lvl or make them harder to play and equally strong when played on same skill lvl. Whatever you prefer. Just in no case dumb down classes even more.

>

> This stance may seem "cool." **However, I think that the latest patch is a clear signal that ANET understands that the game has become too "hardcore" for it's own good.**

> There is nothing wrong with a more forgiving Mesmer spec.

 

I dont think they can pull it off TBH, mes relies on active mitigation too much.

the closest it could ever be was cmirage before all the pepega nerfs, and even then if you mismanage cooldowns you die like anyone else.

there are other classes that can make it work much better due to their mechanics ( scrapper,necro,FB ) for example.

FB in particular where even the skill floor is ultra low the skill cap is deceptively high due to instacast blind mantra

[KrHome.1920]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> >

> > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

>

> Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

We had a sustain meta of certain builds before. These have been mirage, revenant, thief and warrior who could burst while avoiding damage.

 

It's incredible how someone can deny that and call the game better for dummies now. The opposite is true. Dummies won't kill anymore because they can't combo stuns and bursts and they can't outplay class mechanics.

 

I am laughing my ass of every day in wvw when I run into people that played mirage, thief, warrior and revenant and basically never lost a 1v1 and which I can now faceroll because they simply suck at the game and have been carried for ages.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > I care more about elite specs providing interesting, ambitious changes towards game play styles and class niches and capabilities than being perfectly balanced or even underperforming right out the gate.

> > >

> > > Whether you choose to accept it, as bumpy as elite specs have been for balance and power creep if we lived in a world where all of the HoT and PoF elite specs were awful and never worth taking compared to just running core specs the game-mode would be in a far, far worse situation due to the terminal level of staleness. Like imagine where League of Legends or Magic the Gathering would be if they never released new champions/cards after the initial sets.

> >

> > Agree and also ppl hardly can be more carried by braindead stuff than atm already... Can't be worse with new elites than what we have now. And i prefer a powercreep in active gameplay options (what at least increase skill ceiling) over a braindead facetank sustain meta every noob can survive for ages while playing bad.

> We had a sustain meta of certain builds before. These have been mirage, revenant, thief and warrior who could burst while avoiding damage.

>

> It's incredible how someone can deny that and call the game better for dummies now. The opposite is true. Dummies won't kill anymore because they can't combo stuns and bursts and they can't outplay class mechanics.

>

> I am laughing my kitten of every day in wvw when I run into people that played mirage, thief, warrior and revenant and basically never lost a 1v1 and which I can now faceroll because they simply suck at the game and have been carried for ages.

>

 

If you think the facetank sustain meta atm is skillful then... rofl

 

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > there is difference between skilled and strong

> > > > if perfectly played mesmer is equally strong to perfectly played necro, but necro is easy to play.

> > > > then for perspective of winning there is no reason to play mesmer.

> > > > something can be strong and skillfull and still not be played becouse unskilled build can be as strong.

> > >

> > > This is well said. I hope that ANET will consider making a relatively easy to play Mesmer variant.

> > No just make less skilled builds less strong when played on same skill lvl or make them harder to play and equally strong when played on same skill lvl. Whatever you prefer. Just in no case dumb down classes even more.

>

> This stance may seem "cool." **However, I think that the latest patch is a clear signal that ANET understands that the game has become too "hardcore" for it's own good.**

> There is nothing wrong with a more forgiving Mesmer spec.

 

Not sure what you mean, the last patch was clearly dedicated to make the game less power creeped (in both braindead spammable low effort dmg just as forgiving facetank sustain) and higher skill ceiling/ floor with it. You seems to think the opposite. Just the patch was so big with that many simultanious changes that ofc not all is balanced right from start post patch. It was kind of expectable when looking at patch notes that sustain and condis will be too strong compared to nerfed power dmg and a lot of ppl told that in the feedback thread but that doesn't mean that the current facetank state was the plan Anet had in mind. And i hope tomorrow there will be another patch with hotfixes directed at Necro, Ele, Ranger, Fb, Condirev at least. I don't expect Anet to see the hidden (facetank + high dmg) builds already but that at least they hotfix in 1-2 weeks again when they then get played from more ppl who always search for the most easy and broken stuff to get carried (i am one of them so no offence, i don't see any reason to be less carried than everyone else) and for that leave classes which are now so clearly overperforming that buildcrafting is not necessary.