Thief in larger scale

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

> > >

> > > It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

> >

> > Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

>

> This is wildly exaggerated and you know that.

> You'll hit 2k in zerker playing against a tank with weakness and running something like SA/Acro/DrD traits.

>

> Problem is tanks are meta via condi stats (Dire/TB) and a 5k hit is just too low to be impactful.

>

> As far as why they aren't good in blobs... there are just better condi bombs. By a lot. Especially guardians.

Which is equally exaggerated. On my full trailblazer builds I've fought with power thieves that just stomps me to death with tons of damage while permaevading, which makes my conditions utterly useless because of course most trait the cleanse on evade.

 

For some reason when it comes to thieves, people always seem to judge them by the lowest bar. I mean its understandable since it *is* thieves but it doesnt really represent what they can do when they are actually good at it. And dont even get me started on fighting a tp thief.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

> > > >

> > > > It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

> > >

> > > Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

> >

> > This is wildly exaggerated and you know that.

> > You'll hit 2k in zerker playing against a tank with weakness and running something like SA/Acro/DrD traits.

> >

> > Problem is tanks are meta via condi stats (Dire/TB) and a 5k hit is just too low to be impactful.

> >

> > As far as why they aren't good in blobs... there are just better condi bombs. By a lot. Especially guardians.

> Which is equally exaggerated. On my full trailblazer builds I've fought with power thieves that just stomps me to death with tons of damage while permaevading, which makes my conditions utterly useless because of course most trait the cleanse on evade.

>

> For some reason when it comes to thieves, people always seem to judge them by the lowest bar. I mean its understandable since it *is* thieves but it doesnt really represent what they can do when they are actually good at it. And dont even get me started on fighting a tp thief.

 

If you are losing to thieves that easily it’s L2p. I’ve fought some of the best thieves in NA on necro, and even the most annoying aids builds I’ve fought weren’t that bad. Thief is a super hard counter to necro via mobility but you have a fighting chance if you know how to fight them. Every patch this far has made it easier and easier to kill thief, which is sad to hear that people still complain about it.

 

Thief is a mere shadow of what it usto be able to do.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > > With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

> > > >

> > > > Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

> > >

> > > This is wildly exaggerated and you know that.

> > > You'll hit 2k in zerker playing against a tank with weakness and running something like SA/Acro/DrD traits.

> > >

> > > Problem is tanks are meta via condi stats (Dire/TB) and a 5k hit is just too low to be impactful.

> > >

> > > As far as why they aren't good in blobs... there are just better condi bombs. By a lot. Especially guardians.

> > Which is equally exaggerated. On my full trailblazer builds I've fought with power thieves that just stomps me to death with tons of damage while permaevading, which makes my conditions utterly useless because of course most trait the cleanse on evade.

> >

> > For some reason when it comes to thieves, people always seem to judge them by the lowest bar. I mean its understandable since it *is* thieves but it doesnt really represent what they can do when they are actually good at it. And dont even get me started on fighting a tp thief.

>

> If you are losing to thieves that easily it’s L2p. I’ve fought some of the best thieves in NA on necro, and even the most annoying aids builds I’ve fought weren’t that bad. Thief is a super hard counter to necro via mobility but you have a fighting chance if you know how to fight them. Every patch this far has made it easier and easier to kill thief, which is sad to hear that people still complain about it.

>

> Thief is a mere shadow of what it usto be able to do.

>

Please do tell that to sindrener that we fought the other day, he needs to updated on the obvious reality.

 

I do find it hilarious that you instantly react with L2P yet also say "but you have a fighting chance if you know how to fight them". Yeah. Thats called balance. It apply to thieves too. As I said... lowest bar. Or cant thieves be skilled?

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Dawdler.8521" I mean we could just tag @"bluri.2653" and he could tell us himself, whether thief is a mere shadow of what it usto be able to do.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Meme builds like pw and assassins siget are still used in wvw.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Meme builds like pw and assassins siget are still used in wvw.

 

Assassin signet just got ganked.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> @"Dawdler.8521" I mean we could just tag @"bluri.2653" and he could tell us himself, whether thief is a mere shadow of what it usto be able to do.

Sure, but the answer would be yes regardless of class. I mostly play engineer in the last 3 years and used to play condi scrapper - dont tell me whats a "shadow of itself". The thief has nothing on devs claiming purity of purpose. They literally got a **kitten portal**. Here's the thing:

 

I meet 1 thief thats good and I loose.

I meet 4 thieves thats bad and I win.

 

What does people say?

 

You: *"OmG L2p iF YoO lOSt tO a ThiEF!!!"*.

4 out of 5 thieves: *"Thief is unplayble, condi op!"*

Me: *"A thief beat me so the class is still in the fight."*

That 1 thief: *beats most roamers he meet*

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

> > > >

> > > > It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

> > >

> > > Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

> >

> > This is wildly exaggerated and you know that.

> > You'll hit 2k in zerker playing against a tank with weakness and running something like SA/Acro/DrD traits.

> >

> > Problem is tanks are meta via condi stats (Dire/TB) and a 5k hit is just too low to be impactful.

> >

> > As far as why they aren't good in blobs... there are just better condi bombs. By a lot. Especially guardians.

> Which is equally exaggerated. On my full trailblazer builds I've fought with power thieves that just stomps me to death with tons of damage while permaevading, which makes my conditions utterly useless because of course most trait the cleanse on evade.

>

> For some reason when it comes to thieves, people always seem to judge them by the lowest bar. I mean its understandable since it *is* thieves but it doesnt really represent what they can do when they are actually good at it. And dont even get me started on fighting a tp thief.

 

On Trailblazer? To put it bluntly, the thief simply doesnt even have close to enough damage to *kill you* if you're on trailblazer. Hell, they have major trouble killing Carrion builds (unless theyre condi themselves, I suppose), and thats not even nearly as good. What he is saying is exaggerated slightly, but not really by much. Thieves backstabs on glass builds wont hit higher than 9k (especially not now that Assassins signet was indirectly nerfed), and on tanks it wont exceed 4k. If 4k backstabs and 600 damage autoattacks can kill you, I dont know what kind of build youre playing, but it seems to be lacking any sustain.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Dawdler.8521" thief been had portal because the skill we had previously “Shadowtrap” was so bugged that it was almost completely useless..,and by useless I mean game breaking useless: didn’t work 95% of the time.

 

Even with the terrible bugs, thieves like Toker used it in the ESL tourneys way back, and was putting in work with it. The portal we have now is nice sure...but when we talk about how good the potential of thief was it was near limitless back in the day.

 

Anyway I’m not sure what to make of the rest of your post...but I literally auto attack thief on reaper for 80% of their health POST patch... The amount of effort it takes to beat thief is so laughably easy. Meanwhile on thief you have to setup for 20 seconds to land a 4K tickle stab. The effort it takes to be good on theif is so incredibly high that you need to be a sindrener just to make a difference in a match full of scrubs.

 

Yes builds exist that are toxic...but it’s not even that bad. Just gotta learn the class a little bit and you’ll see all of their glaring issues

[reddie.5861]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> Vault thief was the only known viable build for large scale, which isn’t exactly an easy build to play. As of right now I don’t know it’s viability post patch, but I’m sure that with overall power nerfs it probably bit the dust too.

 

still doing well over 10k vaults so its fine still but thief is harder to play in this condi meta ye

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> but I literally auto attack thief on reaper for 80% of their health POST patch... The amount of effort it takes to beat thief is so laughably easy.

That says more about the reaper than the thief.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"Klypto.1703" said:

> > > > @"Dralor.3701" said:

> > > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > With the new condi obsession, maybe venom share will be a thing again? Or is that just too 2014?

> > > >

> > > > It’s probably fine again but people might be better off just playing a necro and spitting out non-stop condis and boon corrupt.

> > >

> > > Its worse now because of some major factors the balance patch has dropped zerker stats to 2k backstabs and marauder down to maybe 500 if you are lucky with dagger for both. Now the condi transfering powers have increased a lot now so a zerg can go without needing to worry about condi damage if they have enough necros and revs to scoop it all up and return it back to you. So for those examples of how damage can be utilized by thief there isn't any point in playing the class its completely countered now. However thief still does have the squishy factor from its high reward/high risk design but now it has no damage output against players. When I say this though you will still see players posting outnumbered videos but when you watch them you'll notice the kinds of players they are killing will be ones who have no idea what they are doing yet. I know warriors are feeling a similar state of uselessness those cc's no longer dealing damage is the same thing as a thief loosing their backstab and stealth mechanics that have that synergy. So for thief and warrior its like anet said we got a plan to solve all our problems so they sold the cars for gas money. Watching a fight between anything that involves thief and warrior right now seems like a fight in a nursing home. I hear the pistol whip skill is going to be changed to wet newspaper to properly describe the ability.

> >

> > This is wildly exaggerated and you know that.

> > You'll hit 2k in zerker playing against a tank with weakness and running something like SA/Acro/DrD traits.

> >

> > Problem is tanks are meta via condi stats (Dire/TB) and a 5k hit is just too low to be impactful.

> >

> > As far as why they aren't good in blobs... there are just better condi bombs. By a lot. Especially guardians.

> Which is equally exaggerated. On my full trailblazer builds I've fought with power thieves that just stomps me to death with tons of damage while permaevading, which makes my conditions utterly useless because of course most trait the cleanse on evade.

>

> For some reason when it comes to thieves, people always seem to judge them by the lowest bar. I mean its understandable since it *is* thieves but it doesnt really represent what they can do when they are actually good at it. And dont even get me started on fighting a tp thief.

 

Did you ignore the fact I said "with weakness" and specified "running something like SA/Acro/DrD" which excludes Deadeye's MBS and pretty much all the damage mod traits?

 

Because seriously there's no way you're taking more than that against core on a reasonably-played Dire/TB build in the current meta, and perma-evading is either core S/D which is not hitting above 5k on anything playing Dire/TB, or a Daredevil with ASignet on a glassier build/trait setup which is definitely not perma-evading and dealing meaningful damage at the same time.

 

Like I'm playing a rabid carrion throwaway-exotic condi soulbeast right now and I think the highest I've taken from a thief is 6k without weakness.

[Infusion.7149]

I've been hitting roughly 6K vaults with a few 8Ks here and there if it's a target without massive toughness. Lots of tanky targets and people with protection such as rangers , firebrands, etc. so it gets harder and harder to do meaningful power damage

 

Before patch I usually ran power herald (which no longer has stunbreak on legend swap as well as a massive decrease in staff damage) so I started playing daredevil more in WvW postpatch.

 

At this point in time if I see my autos hitting for something ridiculous like 500 while roaming I just disengage, no point in that waste of time.