Nerf Renegade

[GewRoo.4172]

massive aoe dmg, daze and condition output paired with tons of heals, evades, boons and dmg reduction makes the jalis/kalla bunker renegade one of the biggest threats to pvp balance. If played by gaming master minds like Zheart who afks a solid 8 min untouched by 3 roamers on close a defeat is Impossible. Delete.

[Kuma.1503]

Is this an ironic post? I can't tell.

 

Either way, comments gave me a good laugh. +1

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Kuma.1503" said:

> Is this an ironic post? I can't tell.

>

> Either way, comments gave me a good laugh. +1

 

 

Really?...Try again, reality is different from what the forum want you to believe

[Aridon.8362]

Why weren't people like this about Holismiths when they were able to 1v3 bunk a point.

[FrownyClown.8402]

Renegade can do some nasty damage with little effort. Not sure it needs a nerf though

[Tayga.3192]

Renegade is just aoe spam.

[Shao.7236]

These builds always existed while people were facerolling the last meta saying that nothing else is viable. You just so happen to discover they exist because people are finally going outside their comfort zone. At best Renegade is a lesser Symbol Brand that you can stop mid way in their burst while the bunker you speak about has one stunbreak, think about what you're even asking for.

 

This EU mAT was full of memes with clueless people that knew nothing about how to deal with them. Any type of AoE CC that affects their summons if not given Stability easily throws a Renegade out of their comfort zone.

[ArthurDent.9538]

Kalla legend has always been an abomination that was only tolerable because it has historically been underpowered but now like lich form is one of the things that has become strong by being ignored by the balance patch. All 5 skills on the legend are pulsing 360 radius aoes that each last 6-10 seconds and bring a tremendous amount of visual cancer while they are up; it's a build like minion master Necro that I just don't want to see being viable at top tier. I propose giving soulcleave the standard 30% reduction to healing and damage, reduce darkrazor from 6 seconds of daze spam to 4, and reduce breakrazor from 10 sec duration to 6. I think ice razor is fine currently maybe reduce duration but up damage per hit and razorclaw is still pretty much useless outside pve so maybe similar treatment so the scary looking but mostly harmless aoe doesn't linger as long.

 

Also leave ventari out of this, none of the wurms ran it because it got gutted hard in the big balance patch despite being bad pre patch.

[ollbirtan.2915]

I.....have seen everything.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> Kalla legend has always been an abomination that was only tolerable because it has historically been underpowered but now like lich form is one of the things that has become strong by being ignored by the balance patch. All 5 skills on the legend are pulsing 360 radius aoes that each last 6-10 seconds and bring a tremendous amount of visual cancer while they are up; it's a build like minion master Necro that I just don't want to see being viable at top tier. I propose giving soulcleave the standard 30% reduction to healing and damage, reduce darkrazor from 6 seconds of daze spam to 4, and reduce breakrazor from 10 sec duration to 6. I think ice razor is fine currently maybe reduce duration but up damage per hit and razorclaw is still pretty much useless outside pve so maybe similar treatment so the scary looking but mostly harmless aoe doesn't linger as long.

>

> Also leave ventari out of this, none of the wurms ran it because it got gutted hard in the big balance patch despite being bad pre patch.

 

Agreed. Khalla is worse visual noise than Scourge ever was. Even if it's fine for renegade to be top tier, khalla should never be allowed to be good in it's current form and should 100% get the full minionmancer, turret engineer, and spirit ranger treatment.

[Kuma.1503]

Ok, this is unironic. In that case I'll give a serious response.

 

Renegade is fine.

 

I see this same tactic used so often in nerf threads. List out all the specialization's pros as if reading off a grocery list while disregarding, or at best, minimizing it's cons. You can make even the most under powered specialization sound overpowered while using this tactic. For that reason, I will present the other half of the equation, reasons why Renegade is not overpowered despite it's stregnths.

 

1. High Energy costs.

 

Renegade does not get to "spam" AoE's on the point as some claim. You start out with 50 energy. Icerazer is your most damaging spirit at 20 energy. Darkrazer is your most powerful spirit overall, which pulses AoE daze. It costs 30 energy. What this means is that if you see a Renegade facerolling it's keyboard and putting both Icerazer and Duskrazer on point, he's very likely burned though his energy pool.

 

2. Spirits can be CC'd

 

With spirit energy costs being so high, it would be a shame if they were rendered useless by AoE CC. If you watch a spirit closely when it get's CC'd you'll notice they have a wind up before they resume their cast. What this means is that even brief dazes can cut down a spirit's usefulness by a significant amount.

 

3. Renegade's Daze is also their Stunbreak.

 

Not only is the renegade down 30 energy if they pop down Duskrazer, but they're also down their stunbreak. In other words, both their offensive and defensive capabilities are going to be reduced. Punish them.

 

4. Shortbow is immobile. Kalla is also immobile.

 

What this means is that Renegade makes a much easier focus target than herald. Most run staff for defense because of this, but staff was neutered as a defensive weapon in the last patch with Staff 5 now applying a self root.

 

5. Shiro was also nerfed.

 

It's alright if they burn duskrazer because they have Shiro as a backup stunbreak, I hear you saying. Well... yes, but if you force them to legend swap into Shiro dodge, you just forced them to burn 40 out of 50 energy right off the bat. Shiro isn't the slippery legend it once was.

 

6. Even if Spirits don't get CC'd... you can walk out of their radius and the Renegade just blew all that energy for nothing.

 

Sure you got forced off the point momentarily, but this is a worst case scenario for you unless the Renegade hard CC's you into his spirit channel ahead of time. Luckily, Scorchrazer is very easy to dodge and comes with a decently high energy cost as well, so that limits what they pump out in terms of spirits.

 

Despite these weaknesses, Renegade is playable now. It's advantages over power herald are it's teamfight and it's considerably lower skill floor and the fact that it's been garbage tier for so long, people don't know how to play against it. It's disadvantages are it's comparative lack of defense, weakness to being focused, high energy costs, telegraphed burst setups, easily avoidable spirits, and good old fashioned projectile hate. Renegade spends most of it's time spamming 1 because of the aforementioned energy cost issues. If you have projectile hate, you not only stop their SB projectiles, you also counter Icerazer.

 

[LolLookAtMyAP.8394]

"1. High Energy Costs"

-- Every Renegade is running the 75 Energy trait because of this.

 

"2. Spirits can be CCd"

--This only works if you have group CC. Single CC is ineffective and odds are you'll get punished hard.

 

I agree with 3.

 

"4. Shortbow is immobile. Kalla is also immobile."

 

--You can kite while casting spirits and shortbow skills. You can swap to staff in Kalla for defense. If the enemy lacks stability you can utterly pressure them with the elite and other spirits.

 

Also regarding staff, the self root is still an EVADE, this is important to know.

 

"5. Shiro was also nerfed."

 

--Mostly agree with your intent here.

 

It still has en evade. But yeah at this point I'd recommend Jalis instead.

 

--I agree with 6, but it's all about planning. Your spirits soft-force enemies away from an area which can be advantageous.

[Kuma.1503]

> @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

> "1. High Energy Costs"

> -- Every Renegade is running the 75 Energy trait because of this.

>

> "2. Spirits can be CCd"

> --This only works if you have group CC. Single CC is ineffective and odds are you'll get punished hard.

>

> I agree with 3.

>

> "4. Shortbow is immobile. Kalla is also immobile."

>

> --You can kite while casting spirits and shortbow skills. You can swap to staff in Kalla for defense. If the enemy lacks stability you can utterly pressure them with the elite and other spirits.

>

> Also regarding staff, the self root is still an EVADE, this is important to know.

>

> "5. Shiro was also nerfed."

>

> --Mostly agree with your intent here.

>

> It still has en evade. But yeah at this point I'd recommend Jalis instead.

>

> --I agree with 6, but it's all about planning. Your spirits soft-force enemies away from an area which can be advantageous.

 

I was under the impression that Renegades ran Roiling mists. 75 energy does give them access to more of their kit, but it does come with tradeoffs. taking all your points into account, I still wouldn't say Renegade is overpowered. It does it's job well enough while still having plenty of weaknesses for good players to exploit. I'd actually like for other classes to have more vulnerabilities in this way.

 

All that being said, Renegade does have one issue that I'd like to be addressed. Spirits add way too much visual clutter. Spirit AoE's can have their particle effects toned down in PvP. Maybe also change the color of Soulcleave or Duskrazer so that they're more distinguishable from one another. You could also add unique warm up effects on the renegade themselves that correspond to which spirit is being placed. A more readable renegade should feel much more manageable to fight.

[Kickpuncher.8109]

Renegade is for people who wanna be carried by their class. Among other things.

 

Just the same status quo in GW2 pvp. Let my broken ass class carry me and be sure to make up logical fallacies in my head and online to make sure my ego and self esteem stay high!

[ArlAlt.1630]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Kuma.1503" said:

> > Is this an ironic post? I can't tell.

> >

> > Either way, comments gave me a good laugh. +1

>

>

>

> Really?...Try again, reality is different from what the forum want you to believe

 

Is there a way I can bribe you to not post garbage?

[Shao.7236]

Pro tips are the moment you hear Darkrazor's Daring, they can't stunbreak even if they have the energy until they can Legend swap (or not at all if it's Ventari) or have waited the 12 seconds (9 seconds with Alacrity). People use it offensively a lot which is really risky and even if there is dazing going on, you can stop it with any form of CC or prevent with Stability.

 

The rune of Mad King is also something else you should always keep in mind because after that, there isn't much damage coming out unless you willingly stand in their AoE being racked up with 25 vulnerability and constant siphon.

 

These are the key elements to counter Renegade, just like a Symbol Brand you shouldn't risk to contest them.