mortrialus.3062 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > so much '137,258 damage you need to do to kill one necro' > > > > -nothing could've save the Necromancer- > > > /Mesmer says hello > Jumped at half health no attemp to shroud, no attemp to heal, impossible to tell even what build he's on as it's possible hes even on Berserkers while I provided a mathmatical breakdown of what the meta core necromancer's tanking capabilities at full health and shroud. Next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > so much '137,258 damage you need to do to kill one necro' > > > > > > > > -nothing could've save the Necromancer- > > > > > > /Mesmer says hello > > > > Jumped at half health no attemp to shroud, no attemp to heal, impossible to tell even what build he's on as it's possible hes even on Berserkers while I provided a mathmatical breakdown of what the meta core necromancer's tanking capabilities at full health and shroud. > > Next! on top of that he was glass cannon CHRONO with crit on slow trait with double mantra. its ass glass canon as one can go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > so much '137,258 damage you need to do to kill one necro' > > > > > > > > -nothing could've save the Necromancer- > > > > > > /Mesmer says hello > > > > Jumped at half health no attemp to shroud, no attemp to heal, impossible to tell even what build he's on as it's possible hes even on Berserkers while I provided a mathmatical breakdown of what the meta core necromancer's tanking capabilities at full health and shroud. -here is a perfect example of a full zerk Thief vs a full tank Necromancer dueling (well played on both of them) Yes, i made sure to check that the Necromancer was using shroud and sure it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gE3AS-kx9w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > so much '137,258 damage you need to do to kill one necro' > > > > > > > > > > > > -nothing could've save the Necromancer- > > > > > > > > > /Mesmer says hello > > > > > > > Jumped at half health no attemp to shroud, no attemp to heal, impossible to tell even what build he's on as it's possible hes even on Berserkers while I provided a mathmatical breakdown of what the meta core necromancer's tanking capabilities at full health and shroud. > > > > Next! > > on top of that he was glass cannon CHRONO with crit on slow trait with double mantra. its kitten glass canon as one can go yeah pretty much. Necromancer Profession(shroud or not) really has nothing on a full Zerk Mesmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Zero.3871" > > > > > you missed the most important point. > > > > > He has proven mathematically with numbers that you dont kill necro 1v1. > > > > > > > > The why do people manage it all the time? > > > > > > > > >its irrelevent how much you value dodges of other classes > > > > It's really not. > > > > > > > > >, necro doesnt die without any active play from necro player. > > > > So where do the LF and protection come from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pulsing prot in shroud, prot on every well dont have to aim it. > > > Lf fro triggering marks, dont have to hit them, from eating conditions. Pulses in shroud for you dont have to do anything. > > > Just off the top of my head > > > > Pulsing protection is shroud only comes from actually applying conditions to enemies consistently , consistently removing conditions , or a combination of both. If you don't actively keep up the pressure then it will fall off. If you take this trait you also can't take unholy sanctuary. > > > > You have to be inside the well for the protection to be granted. It gives it to everyone who is there at the time. If you miss yourself or chose to place it else where you get nothing. > > > > From eating conditions you mean unholy martyr? If you take this you can't take vampiric rituals so no prot on wells. Also it only triggers when you leave shroud. Not to mention the cost of pulling up to 5 conditions to yourself. The benefit of a potential 9% LF doesn't always outweigh the cost of those 5 pulled conditions. > > > > Marks need to go from on trigger to on hit. You still need to place the marks though. > > > > Everything you mentioned required active input/play from the necromancer player. > > Shroud removal -> carapace per condi removed. in shroud pulsing, spectral walk pulsing and 1 well is pulsing. > Unholy sanctuary is not needed, I prefer corrupted fervor expecially since every stack of condi counts for 1 stack of carapace, 4 vuln will give 4 carapace stacks for example, if you get ganked and throw well, you insta gain full stacks of carapace each pulse. > With well trait and pulsing trait shroud prot thingy you get 100% uptime on protection, ez pez. And the only class that can actually get rid of this thing is IH mirage with sword becouse its instane uptime followed by pulsing. So you're saying you have to actively do something to gain things? Interesting. Also incase you haven't realised carapace stacks do not refresh themselves. Each one lasts for it's allotted time and cannot be overwritten. If a well instantly gave me 30 stacks then that's all. The well would have ended before you're able to gain any more stacks of carapace from its effects.This also goes for shrouded removal. Using the traits passive in shroud removal alone the most stacks it will grant you is 9. The boon timer also goes off an internal clock so if you miss the 3s interval you need to make sure by the end of the next 3s you have 25 stacks again. If you don't actively do something to continually and consistently to apply apply or remove conditions you won't hit the 25 mark at the end of every 3s for CF to give you protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > so much '137,258 damage you need to do to kill one necro' > > > > > > > > > > > > -nothing could've save the Necromancer- > > > > > > > > > /Mesmer says hello > > > > > > > Jumped at half health no attemp to shroud, no attemp to heal, impossible to tell even what build he's on as it's possible hes even on Berserkers while I provided a mathmatical breakdown of what the meta core necromancer's tanking capabilities at full health and shroud. > > > -here is a perfect example of a full zerk Thief vs a full tank Necromancer dueling (well played on both of them) Yes, i made sure to check that the Necromancer was using shroud and sure it is > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gE3AS-kx9w > > > That's clearly a Reaper. Exactly how much "checking" did you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > so much '137,258 damage you need to do to kill one necro' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -nothing could've save the Necromancer- > > > > > > > > > > > > /Mesmer says hello > > > > > > > > > > Jumped at half health no attemp to shroud, no attemp to heal, impossible to tell even what build he's on as it's possible hes even on Berserkers while I provided a mathmatical breakdown of what the meta core necromancer's tanking capabilities at full health and shroud. > > > > > > -here is a perfect example of a full zerk Thief vs a full tank Necromancer dueling (well played on both of them) Yes, i made sure to check that the Necromancer was using shroud and sure it is > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gE3AS-kx9w > > > > > > > > That's clearly a Reaper. Exactly how much "checking" did you do? 'Death Shroud- Assume a spectral form and gain new skills, turning your life force into health.' https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud 'Reaper's Shroud-Assume the form of a reaper and gain new skills, turning your life force into health.' https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper%27s_Shroud what do they both have in common? they both turn Necromancer life force into health Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Zero.3871" > > > > > > you missed the most important point. > > > > > > He has proven mathematically with numbers that you dont kill necro 1v1. > > > > > > > > > > The why do people manage it all the time? > > > > > > > > > > >its irrelevent how much you value dodges of other classes > > > > > It's really not. > > > > > > > > > > >, necro doesnt die without any active play from necro player. > > > > > So where do the LF and protection come from? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pulsing prot in shroud, prot on every well dont have to aim it. > > > > Lf fro triggering marks, dont have to hit them, from eating conditions. Pulses in shroud for you dont have to do anything. > > > > Just off the top of my head > > > > > > Pulsing protection is shroud only comes from actually applying conditions to enemies consistently , consistently removing conditions , or a combination of both. If you don't actively keep up the pressure then it will fall off. If you take this trait you also can't take unholy sanctuary. > > > > > > You have to be inside the well for the protection to be granted. It gives it to everyone who is there at the time. If you miss yourself or chose to place it else where you get nothing. > > > > > > From eating conditions you mean unholy martyr? If you take this you can't take vampiric rituals so no prot on wells. Also it only triggers when you leave shroud. Not to mention the cost of pulling up to 5 conditions to yourself. The benefit of a potential 9% LF doesn't always outweigh the cost of those 5 pulled conditions. > > > > > > Marks need to go from on trigger to on hit. You still need to place the marks though. > > > > > > Everything you mentioned required active input/play from the necromancer player. > > > > Shroud removal -> carapace per condi removed. in shroud pulsing, spectral walk pulsing and 1 well is pulsing. > > Unholy sanctuary is not needed, I prefer corrupted fervor expecially since every stack of condi counts for 1 stack of carapace, 4 vuln will give 4 carapace stacks for example, if you get ganked and throw well, you insta gain full stacks of carapace each pulse. > > With well trait and pulsing trait shroud prot thingy you get 100% uptime on protection, ez pez. And the only class that can actually get rid of this thing is IH mirage with sword becouse its instane uptime followed by pulsing. > > So you're saying you have to actively do something to gain things? Interesting. > > Also incase you haven't realised carapace stacks do not refresh themselves. Each one lasts for it's allotted time and cannot be overwritten. If a well instantly gave me 30 stacks then that's all. The well would have ended before you're able to gain any more stacks of carapace from its effects.This also goes for shrouded removal. Using the traits passive in shroud removal alone the most stacks it will grant you is 9. The boon timer also goes off an internal clock so if you miss the 3s interval you need to make sure by the end of the next 3s you have 25 stacks again. > > If you don't actively do something to continually and consistently to apply apply or remove conditions you won't hit the 25 mark at the end of every 3s for CF to give you protection. I know, I wouldnt mention it if it was hard to do, from my exp playing even 1v1 you get this perma, in 1vX there is no way you DONT have 25+ carapace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > I'll deal with your post more in depth when I get home but for starters just a bit ago I posted a 2014 SPvP video showcasing the significantly higher damage numbers we saw back then compared to now even of the same Berserkers stats. Damage is lower than it has ever been in game. So you're just objectively wrong that's this is the same as core in terms of damage values. I think you didn't read my post. I don't talk about 2014 damage. The only damage I talk about are those that you present to everyone. And yes, without any doubt 2 meta DPS are more than sufficient to down a full tank necromancer without even bursting. The necromancer have 10 seconds where he is vulnerable when he is out of shroud. If 2 meta pvp dps can't dish out 40k damage in 10s which merely translate to 2k dps each, then the players that play those ain't doing their job right, they are slacking. And yes, you can dish out this amount of damage in sPvP right now, if you care to use some CD to burst you can even do it in a shorter timeframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > I'll deal with your post more in depth when I get home but for starters just a bit ago I posted a 2014 SPvP video showcasing the significantly higher damage numbers we saw back then compared to now even of the same Berserkers stats. Damage is lower than it has ever been in game. So you're just objectively wrong that's this is the same as core in terms of damage values. > > I think you didn't read my post. I don't talk about 2014 damage. The only damage I talk about are those that you present to everyone. And yes, without any doubt 2 meta DPS are more than sufficient to down a full tank necromancer without even bursting. > > The necromancer have 10 seconds where he is vulnerable when he is out of shroud. If 2 meta pvp dps can't dish out 40k damage in 10s which merely translate to 2k dps each, then the players that play those ain't doing their job right, they are slacking. And yes, you can dish out this amount of damage in sPvP right now, if you care to use some CD to burst you can even do it in a shorter timeframe. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > I'll deal with your post more in depth when I get home but for starters just a bit ago I posted a 2014 SPvP video showcasing the significantly higher damage numbers we saw back then compared to now even of the same Berserkers stats. Damage is lower than it has ever been in game. So you're just objectively wrong that's this is the same as core in terms of damage values. > > I think you didn't read my post. I don't talk about 2014 damage. The only damage I talk about are those that you present to everyone. And yes, without any doubt 2 meta DPS are more than sufficient to down a full tank necromancer without even bursting. > > The necromancer have 10 seconds where he is vulnerable when he is out of shroud. If 2 meta pvp dps can't dish out 40k damage in 10s which merely translate to 2k dps each, then the players that play those ain't doing their job right, they are slacking. And yes, you can dish out this amount of damage in sPvP right now, if you care to use some CD to burst you can even do it in a shorter timeframe. Oh but then they wouldn't have a easy kill like they want. They want their cake ant to eat it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > I'll deal with your post more in depth when I get home but for starters just a bit ago I posted a 2014 SPvP video showcasing the significantly higher damage numbers we saw back then compared to now even of the same Berserkers stats. Damage is lower than it has ever been in game. So you're just objectively wrong that's this is the same as core in terms of damage values. > > I think you didn't read my post. I don't talk about 2014 damage. The only damage I talk about are those that you present to everyone. And yes, without any doubt 2 meta DPS are more than sufficient to down a full tank necromancer without even bursting. > > The necromancer have 10 seconds where he is vulnerable when he is out of shroud. If 2 meta pvp dps can't dish out 40k damage in 10s which merely translate to 2k dps each, then the players that play those ain't doing their job right, they are slacking. And yes, you can dish out this amount of damage in sPvP right now, if you care to use some CD to burst you can even do it in a shorter timeframe. For starters, shroud was build for 2012 damage when damage across the board was higher than we're seeing now. Shroud was literally not built for this level of damage, hence why necros are so bloated defensively it's taking three players to kill one. Sorry but this idea of "Everything should be unkillable and no one should die unless they get focused by the entire enemy team at once" that people like you propagate is fucking stupid. We saw the same stupid shit when Scrappers got reworked. Literally nothing, nothing is more unhealthy for the game mode than things that are broken defensively and grinding the game to a halt. Even overpowered one shot builds aren't that toxic if they suitably glass. 40% damage boost sic em soulbeast was never as toxic for the game mode as Reworked Scrapper was then and Core Necro is now because it can't twist literally the entire game around itself the way real bunkers do. You're seeing games with 40% necro representation in them. That's time to wake up and realize something is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away. > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time. > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits > > 64,804. > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option. > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.** > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own. > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are. > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage. Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta. The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is: August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn. Solutions: Revert the Death Shroud degen change above Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds. Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time. Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away. > > > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time. > > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer > > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits > > > > 64,804. > > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option. > > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.** > > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own. > > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are. > > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage. > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta. > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is: > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%. > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn. > > Solutions: > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds. > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time. > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there. Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.** 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now. For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away. > > > > > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time. > > > > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer > > > > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits > > > > > > 64,804. > > > > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option. > > > > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.** > > > > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own. > > > > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are. > > > > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage. > > > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta. > > > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is: > > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn. > > > > Solutions: > > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above > > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds. > > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time. > > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there. > > Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.** > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now. > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. > > > Backstab sure, look at his other hits, 3k+ shadowshot is very similar to core depending on the circumstances and clusterbomb hits as hard as it ever did. The reality is most skills are doing similar levels of damage to what they would in core with the exception of CC skills obviously. It's hard to get a reliable comparison because of how much the game varies between then and now especially with skill splits but on the whole in PvP the damage at the moment is at a closer level to core than core was to PoF/HoT. Some little snips here and there as I said will likely have the desired effect if necros can't go into full Life Force Death Shroud every 10s and it's degen is reverted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away. > > > > > > > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time. > > > > > > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer > > > > > > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits > > > > > > > > 64,804. > > > > > > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option. > > > > > > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.** > > > > > > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own. > > > > > > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are. > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage. > > > > > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta. > > > > > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is: > > > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%. > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn. > > > > > > Solutions: > > > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above > > > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds. > > > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time. > > > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there. > > > > Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.** > > > > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now. > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. > > > > > > > > Backstab sure, look at his other hits, 3k+ shadowshot is very similar to core depending on the circumstances and clusterbomb hits as hard as it ever did. The reality is most skills are doing similar levels of damage to what they would in core with the exception of CC skills obviously. > > It's hard to get a reliable comparison because of how much the game varies between then and now especially with skill splits but on the whole in PvP the damage at the moment is at a closer level to core than core was to PoF/HoT. Some little snips here and there as I said will likely have the desired effect if necros can't go into full Life Force Death Shroud every 10s and it's degen is reverted. "Oh sure the primary DPS dealing apparatus of all the classes have been heavily nerfed even if they hadn't seen any changes since core as account of the MegaBalance pathch but THAT DOESN'T MEAN DAMAGE HAS GONE DOWN" Buddy, listen to yourself. Across the board if you look at Berserker Amulet Spellbreaker's now vs Berserker Amulet Warrior's then and almost every single build damage is lower for everyone. Berserker's Amulet Mesmers now vs Then. Literally everyone, is doing less damage now than they were in Pre-Hot. I showed you a video of Berserker's Amulet Pre-Hot thief doing 6k,7k,8k. And I showed you a video of the literal best thief in the game also running a Berserker's amulet in 2020 doing literally 2.5k, 3k, 4k, on backstab. Let alone how much lower damage auto attacks and Heartseeker are. Literally objectively, **damage is lower than it has ever been for literally everyone**. Damage is lower than it was in core GW2 before HoT released. Maybe a handful of skills are doing the same damage now as they were then because of a largely half-hazard and incomplete balance patch allowed a number of nondps orientated skills to escape getting their damage nerfed. But when you look at the overall damage numbers now compared to then there is absolutely ZERO doubt; Builds across the board do LESS damage NOW than they did back before Heart of Thorns when a lot of players describe balance as being Utopian. I would genuinely consider 50% of what the player base perceives as "OMG damage power creep" is attributed to the culling of defensive orientated amulets like Soldier's, Sentinel's, Dires, Ect. Ect. And yes, those amulets 100% needed to be cleansed. Compared to the mega balance patch, damage across the board really only needed a 10%-20% trim depending on the build. Not the 50-70% gutting we actually got. Like maybe if pre-hot you played celestial engineer or soldier's engineer for your entire career, you took a break, and then you came into Path of Fire where the tankiest amulet in the game was Paladins I'm sure the increase in speed of combat was shocking. But compared to the defensively crept nonsense of Heart of Thorns and even the absolutely most noxious nonsense from Core, Path of Fire felt reasonably well minus maybe 100-200 healing per second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time. > > > > > > > > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer > > > > > > > > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits > > > > > > > > > > 64,804. > > > > > > > > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option. > > > > > > > > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.** > > > > > > > > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own. > > > > > > > > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are. > > > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage. > > > > > > > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta. > > > > > > > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is: > > > > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > > > > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn. > > > > > > > > Solutions: > > > > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above > > > > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds. > > > > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time. > > > > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there. > > > > > > Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.** > > > > > > > > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now. > > > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Backstab sure, look at his other hits, 3k+ shadowshot is very similar to core depending on the circumstances and clusterbomb hits as hard as it ever did. The reality is most skills are doing similar levels of damage to what they would in core with the exception of CC skills obviously. > > > > It's hard to get a reliable comparison because of how much the game varies between then and now especially with skill splits but on the whole in PvP the damage at the moment is at a closer level to core than core was to PoF/HoT. Some little snips here and there as I said will likely have the desired effect if necros can't go into full Life Force Death Shroud every 10s and it's degen is reverted. > > "Oh sure the primary DPS dealing apparatus of all the classes have been heavily nerfed even if they hadn't seen any changes since core as account of the MegaBalance pathch but THAT DOESN'T MEAN DAMAGE HAS GONE DOWN" > > Buddy, listen to yourself. Across the board if you look at Berserker Amulet Spellbreaker's now vs Berserker Amulet Warrior's then and almost every single build damage is lower for everyone. Berserker's Amulet Mesmers now vs Then. Literally everyone, is doing less damage now than they were in Pre-Hot. I showed you a video of Berserker's Amulet Pre-Hot thief doing 6k,7k,8k. And I showed you a video of the literal best thief in the game also running a Berserker's amulet in 2020 doing literally 2.5k, 3k, 4k, on backstab. Let alone how much lower damage auto attacks and Heartseeker are. > > Literally objectively, **damage is lower than it has ever been for literally everyone**. Damage is lower than it was in core GW2 before HoT released. > > Maybe a handful of skills are doing the same damage now as they were then because of a largely half-hazard and incomplete balance patch allowed a number of nondps orientated skills to escape getting their damage nerfed. But when you look at the overall damage numbers now compared to then there is absolutely ZERO doubt; Builds across the board do LESS damage NOW than they did back before Heart of Thorns when a lot of players describe balance as being Utopian. > > I would genuinely consider 50% of what the player base perceives as "OMG damage power creep" is attributed to the culling of defensive orientated amulets like Soldier's, Sentinel's, Dires, Ect. Ect. And yes, those amulets 100% needed to be cleansed. Compared to the mega balance patch, damage across the board really only needed a 10%-20% trim depending on the build. Not the 50-70% gutting we actually got. Mortrialus, i have a question to ask you, what is the problem that you have with Necromancer Profession? Obviously, we do not have 'all-in-one' design like others including Thief Profession so exactly, what is the problem that make your experience fighting with Necromancer Toxic? - And also unlike Thief Profession and others, it is our lore and our core root to remain alive as long we can...i just don't understand why some don't understand this. Sure it took us a very long time to get to this state and that it causes some to feel uncomfortable but understand this, this is who we are, this is our identity-we feed on life force to stay alive - we are not perfected yet but gradually getting there. Being uncomfortable is ok but asking to Punish a Profession lore and its identity is wrong. side note; Mesmer Profession does not even have an identity and i can only imagine the Rage some would have against it too because it has the power to shut-down any skills at will. Yes, including the Necromancer Profession. **Blackout**  'For 2...5...6 seconds, all of touched target foe's skills are disabled, and all of your skills are disabled for 5 seconds.' https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blackout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said: > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away. > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time. > > > > > > > > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer > > > > > > > > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits > > > > > > > > > > 64,804. > > > > > > > > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option. > > > > > > > > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.** > > > > > > > > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own. > > > > > > > > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are. > > > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage. > > > > > > > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta. > > > > > > > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is: > > > > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > > > > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn. > > > > > > > > Solutions: > > > > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above > > > > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds. > > > > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time. > > > > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there. > > > > > > Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.** > > > > > > > > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now. > > > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Backstab sure, look at his other hits, 3k+ shadowshot is very similar to core depending on the circumstances and clusterbomb hits as hard as it ever did. The reality is most skills are doing similar levels of damage to what they would in core with the exception of CC skills obviously. > > > > It's hard to get a reliable comparison because of how much the game varies between then and now especially with skill splits but on the whole in PvP the damage at the moment is at a closer level to core than core was to PoF/HoT. Some little snips here and there as I said will likely have the desired effect if necros can't go into full Life Force Death Shroud every 10s and it's degen is reverted. > > "Oh sure the primary DPS dealing apparatus of all the classes have been heavily nerfed even if they hadn't seen any changes since core as account of the MegaBalance pathch but THAT DOESN'T MEAN DAMAGE HAS GONE DOWN" > > Buddy, listen to yourself. Across the board if you look at Berserker Amulet Spellbreaker's now vs Berserker Amulet Warrior's then and almost every single build damage is lower for everyone. Berserker's Amulet Mesmers now vs Then. Literally everyone, is doing less damage now than they were in Pre-Hot. I showed you a video of Berserker's Amulet Pre-Hot thief doing 6k,7k,8k. And I showed you a video of the literal best thief in the game also running a Berserker's amulet in 2020 doing literally 2.5k, 3k, 4k, on backstab. Let alone how much lower damage auto attacks and Heartseeker are. > > Literally objectively, **damage is lower than it has ever been for literally everyone**. Damage is lower than it was in core GW2 before HoT released. > > Maybe a handful of skills are doing the same damage now as they were then because of a largely half-hazard and incomplete balance patch allowed a number of nondps orientated skills to escape getting their damage nerfed. But when you look at the overall damage numbers now compared to then there is absolutely ZERO doubt; Builds across the board do LESS damage NOW than they did back before Heart of Thorns when a lot of players describe balance as being Utopian. > > I would genuinely consider 50% of what the player base perceives as "OMG damage power creep" is attributed to the culling of defensive orientated amulets like Soldier's, Sentinel's, Dires, Ect. Ect. And yes, those amulets 100% needed to be cleansed. Compared to the mega balance patch, damage across the board really only needed a 10%-20% trim depending on the build. Not the 50-70% gutting we actually got. > > Like maybe if pre-hot you played celestial engineer or soldier's engineer for your entire career, you took a break, and then you came into Path of Fire where the tankiest amulet in the game was Paladins I'm sure the increase in speed of combat was shocking. But compared to the defensively crept nonsense of Heart of Thorns and even the absolutely most noxious nonsense from Core, Path of Fire felt reasonably well minus maybe 100-200 healing per second. I stopped reading after the first paragraph when it became apparent you ignored what I said. Go back and look at the videos and compare the skills I specifically mentioned. DP daredevil right now is doing 3-4.5k shadowshots, DP thief back then did very similar. Clusterbomb is doing the similar amounts of damage, heartseeker is doing similar levels of damage to core. Seems to me the outlier is backstab and it's not by much. I was watching Sindrener's stream the other day, when he's backstabbing a mesmer without extra toughness and protection etc he hits for 6-7k. From a post I made a very very long time ago in core days when discussing who had the higher burst: Thief burst: Steal into backstab. Steal ~1500 damage. Backstab: (2255*2.4*952.5/1924)*(1.10*1.15) = 3389.3 Crit: 3344.2*1.873 = 6348.2 Total burst damage: ~7848 The damage mods it would usually have in the build was +26.5% combined damage, now what does current thief have? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Havoc_Specialist - 10% (we're going to assume you only have 2 missing) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weakening_Strikes - 10% (we're assuming you have probably dodged between your last attack and BS) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attacks - 7% at least(Likely to be another 10% but we'll be kind) When you multiply that all out we get +29.5% damage. Does this make up for backstab going from 2.4 coefficient to 1.8? No, a 25% damage decrease is kind of hard to make up for with damage mods even if they were higher but to say everyone blanket does less damage is not evident considering many skills are hitting at similar levels to back then. Which brings me back to my original solution, increase the degen on shroud back to core levels and adjust life force regen so 1 on 1 it's not high enough to keep going into and out of full Death Shroud, the goal should be to tweak it down not buff thief or heavily nerf. Edit: I also said damage is far closer to now and core than core and HoT/PoF and even now and HoT/PoF. We might not be at the final destination but it seems to me the outliers are the bunkers not the damage, seeing as you're using Sindrener as your examples you'd know he says the same thing. Don't buff thief, bring down the bunkers bit by bit till they're in a good spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > @"Brimstone Jack.3462" said: > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > > > > > > Lower the inherent -50% incoming damage and condition damage while in Death Shroud down to something like -33%. Death Shroud is too tanky post megabalance and they can cast from range unlike reaper which needs to dive bomb into melee range where shroud will get immediately cleaved away. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, cc/stunlock can kill your whole LF bar pretty quick, and then it's squishy mortal time. > > > > > > > > > > > > https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer > > > > > > > > > > > > On Meta Core Necro with full HP and a full bar of Life Force they have 64,804 Effective HP when you factor in the Death Shroud -50% all incoming damage boost. And this isn't counting Protection, which they gain a ton of through traits > > > > > > > > > > > > 64,804. > > > > > > > > > > > > Considering necromancers have significant up time on protection, for power builds if you assume a VERY conservative 33% up time on protection that's 71,141 effective HP. Oh and the necro is almost certainly healing and odds are it'll get two Consume Conditions off before it's finally dead. Averaging for 3 conditions that puts us at an effective health pool of 86,451. And I haven't even touched the healing per second provided by Vampiric Aura and regeneration uptime. Running some very basic combat simulations you can expect 383 healing per second from regeneration like Mark of Blood and Vampiric Aura. That's almost twice as much incoming healing per second as actual healing skills. If you assume 40-60 seconds of combat, which is not unrealistic especially 1v1 against a necromancer that's an additional 15,320 HP players need to punch through for 40 seconds or 22,980 for 60 seconds. But let's go with the conservative option. > > > > > > > > > > > > **That is potentially a 101,771 damage players need to do to actually kill a core necro right now.** > > > > > > > > > > > > And we aren't even talking their capacity to refill their life shroud bar. That's calculated based on ONE bar of Life Shroud. Calculate for two full bars of shroud and we're looking at **137,258 damage** you need to do to kill one necro. And yeah, shroud doesn't last for ever and there is degeneration on it. It still takes 34 seconds for death shroud to run out on it's own. > > > > > > > > > > > > And here's the thing, all that defensive capability on core necro was ALREADY top tier in a setting where everyone was doing 50-100% more DPS than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Mirage is doing 1,100 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Daredevil is doing 2,380 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Meta Condition Herald is doing 2,600 damage per second on PvP stats now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Core necro's survivability _was already balanced_ in an where everyone was running around with 50-100% more DPS. Shroud is literally not mathmatically built for this game's current level of damage. > > > > > > > > > > Actually shroud was balanced and built closer to the game as it is currently not how it was in the DPS PoF hold W meta. > > > > > > > > > > The only thing that has really changed about core Death Shroud is: > > > > > August 09, 2017 - The base drain of life force from being in death shroud has been reduced 25%. > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Shroud > > > > > > > > > > What has changed is Life Force regen where Life Force needed plenty of traits and weapons to build it up. In fact one of the problems of condi builds was being starved for Life Force because sceptre 3 was the only thing that gave Life Force on Sceptre/Dagger and it gave nearly nothing, this is also one of the reasons people took warhorn. > > > > > > > > > > Solutions: > > > > > Revert the Death Shroud degen change above > > > > > Redistribute Life Force regeneration to be a bit more accessible across multiple builds. > > > > > Reduce Life Force generation uniformaly across a category (weapon skills or traits or utilities) till you hit a good spot where core necromancers cannot simply regen full Death Shroud every 10s and sit in it face tanking for long spells of time. > > > > > Honestly I don't think it needs massive changes outside the degen change, maybe a little shave here and there. > > > > > > > > Pre-Hot Core Guild Wars 2's balance was considerably higher than what we're seeing after the mega balance patch across the board. We are in a **lower damage game than Vanilla Guild Wars 2.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7k Backstabs without even using Assassin's signet, 6k backstabs on heavy armor. Good luck getting that level of damage now even with Assassin's Signet. Also note the 5-8k Heart Seekers when below 25%. This is in conquest, running Berserker's Amulet, which meta DP Daredevil is ALSO running and not getting half this level of damage. Pre Heart of Thorns GW2 PvP was higher damage and burstier than it is now. > > > > > > > > For reference, here's Sindrener playing berserker Amulet DP daredevil. Just at a glance you can see how much lower damage is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Backstab sure, look at his other hits, 3k+ shadowshot is very similar to core depending on the circumstances and clusterbomb hits as hard as it ever did. The reality is most skills are doing similar levels of damage to what they would in core with the exception of CC skills obviously. > > > > > > It's hard to get a reliable comparison because of how much the game varies between then and now especially with skill splits but on the whole in PvP the damage at the moment is at a closer level to core than core was to PoF/HoT. Some little snips here and there as I said will likely have the desired effect if necros can't go into full Life Force Death Shroud every 10s and it's degen is reverted. > > > > "Oh sure the primary DPS dealing apparatus of all the classes have been heavily nerfed even if they hadn't seen any changes since core as account of the MegaBalance pathch but THAT DOESN'T MEAN DAMAGE HAS GONE DOWN" > > > > Buddy, listen to yourself. Across the board if you look at Berserker Amulet Spellbreaker's now vs Berserker Amulet Warrior's then and almost every single build damage is lower for everyone. Berserker's Amulet Mesmers now vs Then. Literally everyone, is doing less damage now than they were in Pre-Hot. I showed you a video of Berserker's Amulet Pre-Hot thief doing 6k,7k,8k. And I showed you a video of the literal best thief in the game also running a Berserker's amulet in 2020 doing literally 2.5k, 3k, 4k, on backstab. Let alone how much lower damage auto attacks and Heartseeker are. > > > > Literally objectively, **damage is lower than it has ever been for literally everyone**. Damage is lower than it was in core GW2 before HoT released. > > > > Maybe a handful of skills are doing the same damage now as they were then because of a largely half-hazard and incomplete balance patch allowed a number of nondps orientated skills to escape getting their damage nerfed. But when you look at the overall damage numbers now compared to then there is absolutely ZERO doubt; Builds across the board do LESS damage NOW than they did back before Heart of Thorns when a lot of players describe balance as being Utopian. > > > > I would genuinely consider 50% of what the player base perceives as "OMG damage power creep" is attributed to the culling of defensive orientated amulets like Soldier's, Sentinel's, Dires, Ect. Ect. And yes, those amulets 100% needed to be cleansed. Compared to the mega balance patch, damage across the board really only needed a 10%-20% trim depending on the build. Not the 50-70% gutting we actually got. > > Mortrialus, i have a question to ask you, what is the problem that you have with Necromancer Profession? Obviously, we do not have 'all-in-one' design like others including Thief Profession so exactly, what is the problem that make your experience fighting with Necromancer Toxic? Lots and very little at the same time tbh. Pre-MegaBalance patch Core Necromancer was a top tier excellent build with multiple MAT victories and Top 10 Ranked placements under it's belt despite not being outright godly. Post megabalance with everyone's damage nerfed even lower than it was in PreHoT-GW2, Necromancer has gone from being top tier in terms of defensive capabilities to literally god like. Maybe it wouldn't be as bad if literally every necromancer wasn't running both Power Crept Spectral Walk and boosted Flesh Wurm, and thus any fight necromancer engaged in was something they committed to. But right now you can expect a flesh worm planted max range from the node, the necromancer to engage with Spectral Walk and the second you look at them they'll snap back. Then when they charge back in they snap back with Flesh Wurm again. Necromancers are both exceptionally tanky while having more squirrelly evasive combat mechanics than Mesmer right now. It's literally packing more ports on a tankier class than Mesmer right now. > > - And also unlike Thief Profession and others, it is our lore and our core root to remain alive as long we can...i just don't understand why some don't understand this. Sure it took us a very long time to get to this state and that it causes some to feel uncomfortable but understand this, this is who we are, this is our identity-we feed on life force to stay alive Like he's the thing about lore... even if you're channeling the same god or power source everyone's capability of channeling said power is going to be different. Just like everyone's capacity to strength train is different. Or everyone's capacity to sprint long distances is different. All the core professions channel different gods or combinations of gods, or rather, at least their spectrum of magic. This includes thieves, mesmers, and necromancers. > (by the way, i clearly know that you are a very skillful experience player and have absolutely no problem fighting us...so what is it?) Outside of portal, in terms of combat efficacy I don't think anyone can be honest and not admit Mesmer isn't the least impactful class in the game right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dikkejonko.5803 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > @"KrHome.1920" said: > > > I must be the best player in this game. > > > > > > I can kill core bunkers without a sweat and everyone tells me that trash build facetanks him and his discord friends 1v3 and does not die. > > > > > > LMAO! > > > > Well if you play a damage sidenoder (warrior/ranger/mesmer?) or go vs bad necroes it doesn't mean you are good. > > > > If you go against other top players and win without hard countering bunkers, go join mAT. > You don't get the irony. > > Meta changes demand for adaptions. > > When the meta shifts to certain builds, I open the build panel and change my build to a counter. And I seem to be the only one doing this. > > This has nothing to do with side noders and other nonsense. A well crafted team focused build can kill a core bunker too. I do never play one-dimensional stuff. That's why I don't play thief. > > _edit1:_ So you want to tell me bunker core is dominating high skill level matchups? Seriously? > _edit2:_ I play and win against the necros that are responsible for the builds you wannabes copypaste from metabattle. Maybe that's the reason I don't have problems killing them while you do. you're so pro here have cookie, no wait, no cookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinon.3421 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 I know that not every class has it, but a well used reflect (Holo Shield 4, Ranger Axe 5, Mesmer passive...) makes these necros kill themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigiQWill.6378 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > I sort of agree. But that big shroud is all the Core Necro has. It's honestly just kind of bad all around in the DPS department, mobility, and even CC. Like right now, the only reason why a Core Necro can even deal damage at all, is because it can face tank while completing its long slow animation channels. If the shroud mechanics are nerfed too much, it'll force too much defensive play, and the Core Necro will no longer be able to offense long enough to do anything at all. > > I do think shroud play needs to be nerfed, but if this happens the Core Necromancer shroud skills need some kind of buff compensation to accommodate. > > So I don't believe this to be a situation where "The Core Necro is OP" as much as it is "The Core Necro is imbalanced." It needs a little less sustain and a little more offensive pressure/CC. Honestly, just nerf the shroud elite on core that makes each auto hit for a minimum of 3k, and upwards to 7k. Consistently XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > I'll deal with your post more in depth when I get home but for starters just a bit ago I posted a 2014 SPvP video showcasing the significantly higher damage numbers we saw back then compared to now even of the same Berserkers stats. Damage is lower than it has ever been in game. So you're just objectively wrong that's this is the same as core in terms of damage values. > > > > I think you didn't read my post. I don't talk about 2014 damage. The only damage I talk about are those that you present to everyone. And yes, without any doubt 2 meta DPS are more than sufficient to down a full tank necromancer without even bursting. > > > > The necromancer have 10 seconds where he is vulnerable when he is out of shroud. If 2 meta pvp dps can't dish out 40k damage in 10s which merely translate to 2k dps each, then the players that play those ain't doing their job right, they are slacking. And yes, you can dish out this amount of damage in sPvP right now, if you care to use some CD to burst you can even do it in a shorter timeframe. > > For starters, shroud was build for 2012 damage when damage across the board was higher than we're seeing now. Shroud was literally not built for this level of damage, hence why necros are so bloated defensively it's taking three players to kill one. > > Sorry but this idea of "Everything should be unkillable and no one should die unless they get focused by the entire enemy team at once" that people like you propagate is kitten stupid. We saw the same stupid kitten when Scrappers got reworked. Literally nothing, nothing is more unhealthy for the game mode than things that are broken defensively and grinding the game to a halt. Even overpowered one shot builds aren't that toxic if they suitably glass. 40% damage boost sic em soulbeast was never as toxic for the game mode as Reworked Scrapper was then and Core Necro is now because it can't twist literally the entire game around itself the way real bunkers do. > > You're seeing games with 40% necro representation in them. That's time to wake up and realize something is wrong. I think you have a poor perception of what 2012 damage were. Thiefs could deal up to 21k damage in a single hit without even a single stack of might in 2012 (albeit it was in WvW, I doubt in sPvP, it was dfficult for them to deal any less than a 12k damage on a single hit). An evicerate warrior also had disgusting amount of burst. Same goes for mesmer and elementalist. I'll be honest, the difference between 2012 and now is that now the base damage is lower but we are more accustomed to build might while in 2012 few were taking advantage of boons. And, to be clear, initially the necromancer didn't have the 50% damage reduction on the shroud. ANet had to add it because of the downstate of the necromancer which had shroud amount of health while other profession had a lot more. In 2012 it was beyond easy to kill a necromancer they had paper thin defense, ridiculously low sustain and were basically forced into soldier stats for a minimum of survivability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Storm.6974 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 Core necro is not even the best choice (for a necro) right now, it has so many weakness that any experienced player (if playing a build with good damage) could use CCs and kill it very fast. If the necro got two defensive trait lines, than it has to have a lot of resistance, otherwise it would be useless with its garbage damage and all the weaknesses it got. Get damage while trying to survive is the role of a bunker, and core necromancer already has weaknesses that will never allow it to be really efficient in this role. Maybe the condition damage “needs” to get some reduction. Anet said they plan to make other changes of the “same nature” (coefficient nerfs), so it is possibile that condition damage will be the next. Core necromancer survive ability was really bad before the power coefficients nerf, and now it is just enough to not be useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Storm.6974 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 Increase the Death Shroud degeneration is not a good solution (for that problem that only exist in the mind of some people), because core necro needs to stay away from its enemies, while being able to do some damage in Shroud. Core necro can’t efficiently fight in melee. Back in 2013-2014 many people knew well how to fight a core necromancer. It was even much much stronger than now when playing a bunker build, but it was not “META” (trend is probably a better definition for what people call META in PvP) and almost none was playing a bunker build. People are just asking to remove the bunker option from necromancer, reducing the variety of “viable” (viable = at least decent) builds. Now, I hope Arenanet will not “cripple” the offensive builds usable by necromancer, just to reduce the survive ability of an already “crippled” bunker necro (change that would let to no choice to necromancer about which role to fill. Scourge healing/support got removed already, from the “viable” options). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erzian.5218 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 Take away core news survivability and it becomes 100 % useless as it doesn’t have enough damage or mobility to kill any good player of any other class. It’s literally a big damage sponge that is only useful because it tanks a lot of damage and has a strong Rez trait while providing support level damage. Curses, sr, bum core nec (so not even the bunker version, but the offensive one) legitimately cannot kill holo or ranger because it’s damage is too low compared to their sustain, as long as they manage their cool downs and dodges properly. However, the reverse is true and nec dies to both in 1v1 (and vs ranger it gets decapped as well). . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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