Firebeard.1746
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Posts posted by Firebeard.1746
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> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.
>
Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.
> We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.
>
> If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.
>
What % of guilds are doing progression runs?
As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.
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You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.
Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.
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> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.
> > >
> > > Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.
> >
> > I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.
>
> You’re pretty much suggesting that. You state that end game systems are broken because veteran players do not want to teach new players. You’re making it out as if veteran players are obligated to teach new players otherwise the end-game system is broken.
>
> There is also plenty of cooperation in raids. Cooperation doesn’t mean just teaching new players.
If veteran players are not creating an environment where new players feel welcome they are essentially killing the game and/or game mode. There must be some level of help in an mmo if it's to thrive. You're right it doesn't but in a game like gw2 where all progression is permanent something needs to be done to put everyone on the same level if you want to open the door to the rest of the community participating.
Again this is so funny for you to be saying while expecting anet to crank out more content in raids specifically.
Other games essentially do what i stated by introducing new raids each season and making the okd gear obsolete. And players will usually even take new people in the guild around the turn of a season freely because everyone is essentially new. I never see the vets complain. What you're advocating by disagreeing with me is that you never want to learn anything new. Why do you even want new raids then?
>
> >
> > Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.
>
> There’s a difference between expecting veteran players to teach you versus expecting them to carry you. I said the former.
If you're implying i'm not willing to learn that's also a false statement. Do you really think that the barrier is just people not willing to learn? How is the ridiculous setup in the op NOT proof that's not the issue.
100 kp is not "i'm willing to teach " especially when there's people in LFG who have already cleared it. At least 50 times.
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> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.
>
> Veteran players are not obligated to teach new players. It’s rather entitled to believe that. There are also many veteran players who do teach through LFG or various discords.
I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying trip everyone up so they can work together, everyone is new. It's just as entitled to play an MMO expecting to be carried all the time as experienced players by other experienced players. THE WHOLE POINT of an mmo is cooperation. The moment you're soullessly playing for rewards, you need to find a new game.
Edit: it is both stupid and offensive to tell me that i expect to be carried. I'm the one who will solo carry noobs through gold tier rewards on the easy strikes, set up fault tolerant WoJ comps that pass on the first try. I like helping people win. I've never asked for kp either unlike other strike leaders. I don't do strikes much because i want legendaries these days, but dude, i carry people and judge people who don't.
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Honestly this is probably the biggest proof that the end game systems here are broken. People have played the content so long they are no longer willing to teach new players, which in turn discourages them from participating and encourages the vets to give up too because no one is playing any more. Which is the opposite of how an mmo should be. The best solution i can come up with is anet bags leggie based achievement collections tied to any end game and severely limits the number of raids, fractals, strikes available at once, cycling through every 3-6 months. On top of this, tweak mechanics to keep the difficulty about the same but different enough to trip up vets to the point everyone will be learning at once.
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> @"paulelle.6813" said:
> > @"Blumpf.2518" said:
> > What Seera.5916 basically said is: "If you want to learn how to drive a car, go to the formula 1 racing track first and learn how to drive that highspeed car that can get people killed. And once you are able to do that, slow down to the level that works for you and drive your Toyota at the speed that you want."
> > Which is of course total bullkitten.
>
> Okay, maybe you will understand it like this:
> SC is the formula 1 racing track. If you want to learn driving a car, you don't go to a racing track. So if you want to learn raiding, you don't go to SC website, you go to training discords instead.
> SC WEBSITE IS NOT A TRAINING WEBSITE AND WILL NEVER BE, SAME AS RACING TRACK WILL NEVER BE A DRIVING INSTRUCTOR, BECAUSE IT'S A RACING TRACK. SO IF SOMEONE WHO CAN'T DRIVE GOES TO A RACING TRACK INSTEAD OF DRIVING INSTRUCTOR, THEY CAN ONLY BLAME HIMSELF.
Then we should stop treating it as meta, like everyone does.
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> @"paulelle.6813" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.
>
>
> Raids is ENDGAME content. You ARE EXPECTED to know your class at a BASIC LEVEL, which means you are supposed to know how CS works and that it will TELEPORT YOU TO PREVIOUS LOCATION.
> If you read ANY Soulless Horror guide or wiki page or even SC guide, you will notice that it has WALL MECHANICS.
>
> Now, knowing those 2 facts, you use your brain, because you are a smart human being, and come to the conclusion that using CS when walls are around MAY BE DANGEROUS AND CAUSE DEATH. SO, you will not use CS when wall is around.
>
> It's like going to the university and demanding them to teach you 2+2 = 4
>
>
It's funny you talk to me like i'm an idiot when the guide itself tells people to stack toughness like it's not a global attribute of all classes easily explained in a tooltip. And wait for it.... trainers didn't even mention the fact i pointed out here. None of the other 10 people i've played with during bad runs. people with far more experience than me.... if that's not evidence for what op is saying i don't know what is. And on top of all this you have to dribble on the L2P noob. I did. And i've had issues forming groups explaining this strategy. So who's not learning to play? Who's toxicly forcing a meta. Not me.
A better analogy is the snow crows guide is like a guide for kindergarten teaching you abcs when it's saying it's a guide on rocket science.
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> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > > > > > Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.
> > > > > > I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?
> > > > >
> > > > > I think it would be beneficial to look up what entitlement actually means. Your usage of it in your post is incorrect.
> > > >
> > > > It's completely correct. You want the devs to use precious resources on something that isn't valued by the community. Because of the community's behavior. You're literally a 1-2% of the population being asked to be catered to.
> > >
> > > First off, what you just said doesn’t dispute the previous post. You still missed the term.
> > >
> > > With this post, you’re still misusing it as well. It’s not entitlement to expect Anet to maintain a part of the game, which they added, when they routine update other areas. Equality is not entitlement. Otherwise, by your definition, sPvP and WvW players must be entitled for wanting support in their game modes when the active player base in open world PvE dwarfs theirs.
> >
> > Except I bet you more players dabble in those than raids as a % of the population. They have limited resources. Expecting them to expend massive resources disportionate to the playerbase is the very definition of entitlement: you expect resources to be spent on YOU instead of other players, when it would benefit way more people than you. YOu see yourself entitled to anet's resources.
> >
> > I blame the player base more than the raids themselves for this downturn in activity.
>
> It’s not massive resources for raids as the raid team, when it existed, was fairly small. I’m fairly certain that you are already aware of this and your usage of “massive” was just a gross exaggeration.
>
> As I said, you’re twisting what entitlement actually means in the context of what I had said. It’s not entitlement to expect Anet to maintain a part of the game that they haven’t formally stated they would no longer maintain (e.g. dungeons).
No you're just blatantly refusing to acknowledge what I'm saying. That's fine. Your chance, and the community's chance is if Strike missions work in funneling players into raids. I bet it doesn't happen, with how little response I've gotten when I've tried lately.
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> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > > > Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.
> > > > I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?
> > >
> > > I think it would be beneficial to look up what entitlement actually means. Your usage of it in your post is incorrect.
> >
> > It's completely correct. You want the devs to use precious resources on something that isn't valued by the community. Because of the community's behavior. You're literally a 1-2% of the population being asked to be catered to.
>
> First off, what you just said doesn’t dispute the previous post. You still missed the term.
>
> With this post, you’re still misusing it as well. It’s not entitlement to expect Anet to maintain a part of the game, which they added, when they routine update other areas. Equality is not entitlement. Otherwise, by your definition, sPvP and WvW players must be entitled for wanting support in their game modes when the active player base in open world PvE dwarfs theirs.
Except I bet you more players dabble in those than raids as a % of the population. They have limited resources. Expecting them to expend massive resources disportionate to the playerbase is the very definition of entitlement: you expect resources to be spent on YOU instead of other players, when it would benefit way more people than you. YOu see yourself entitled to anet's resources.
I blame the player base more than the raids themselves for this downturn in activity.
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> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.
> > I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?
>
> I think it would be beneficial to look up what entitlement actually means. Your usage of it in your post is incorrect.
It's completely correct. You want the devs to use precious resources on something that isn't valued by the community. Because of the community's behavior. You're literally a 1-2% of the population being asked to be catered to.
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> @"PyrateSilly.4710" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"carey.3169" said:
> > > Would love to see a updated version of contacts, similar to other online games, that friendship be mutually requested, and to remove unwanted followers, without having to change account details.
> >
> > What's the issue with the current system? Not attacking, just curious.
>
> The problem comes in when you have a harasser in game (or out of game) that follows you. Yea ... kinda had a few of those and yes I do block them but if they follow you to try to keep harassing you then, at least from I can see on my lists, they can still see you. The only good thing is since I have blocked them I don't see stuff from them ... others can thou. All because they followed me.
Gross
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I'm super curious what they'll be releasing. How close to the end of the other seasons were Vision, Aurora and Exordium Announced?
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> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"yann.1946" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"yann.1946" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
> > > > > > > > > Heal scourge is not meta.
> > > > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
> > > > > > > > > Power Reaper is not meta.
> > > > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
> > > > > > > > > Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Take care when using
> > > > > > Tides of Time
> > > > > > as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
> > > > > > Epidemic
> > > > > > .
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
> > > > > > Vortex Slash
> > > > > > , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
> > > > > > Signet of the Ether
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > Signet of Inspiration
> > > > > > to share Aegis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
> > > > > > Soul Rift
> > > > > > , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power%20boon/
> > > > >
> > > > > Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.
> > > >
> > > > It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.
> > >
> > > Let me explain then.
> > > Cyns point was that
> > > 1) snowcrows does provide nonmeta builds so the question becomes how much non meta builds should they add.
> > > 2)this amount will vary for different people and it will never be enough to satisfy everyone.
> >
> > And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.
> >
> >
>
> Guides and recommendations are not written with a "go in, do it immediately without failing" in mind. The death wall hardly needs a warning. It is both explained on the official bosses wiki:
> > Surging Souls spawn off-platform and move across the platform in a random selection of predetermined patterns, defeating players on touch.
> - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soulless_Horror
>
> As well as one of the most noticeable attacks a boss can have. You will notice it when touching it. There is no need to explain to people: please don't touch this and be prepared to move a lot. Every semi sentient being should pick up on that after two or three tries.
>
> Also no, SC guide are certainly not written with "people on their skill level". Many of their guides revolve around builds and tactics they don't even use themselves regularly. Which becomes very obvious for players who alternate between different skilled groups and have to make alterations on things themselves (like myself when I help out friends in the more casual raid guilds I am in, versus the full clear static Mondays). The SC builds and guides are custom tailored to probably a midfield skilled player while giving enough guidance for new players to start practicing and improving.
>
> The nit-picky details are literally minor things which can make a significant difference but require little attention. Not standing in front of her is a SIGNIFICANT damage decrease to the squad while easily achieved by slightly aware players. Giving aegis right before the circle below the group fills up also again reduces damage significantly while requiring little to no attention from guardians or mesmers. Those guides are guides for how to improve with that class, they are not complete boss guides.
>
> The problem with low hanging fruit is always the same: there is someone smaller who will still not be able to reach it, no matter how many types of stairs you try to reach that person.
I could use the same logic for any of the other mechanics you explained on death walls, for me it's like "no crap I woudln't want to take more damage, why wouldn't I have toughness!?". I find the OP's sentiments far from wrong. I'm glad you're adaptable when working with various skill levels. Not all raid trainers are. And even some people, if you request in a ping on RA, will not be tolerant for suggesting a particular comp to counter something. Which is ridiculous in context IMO.
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> @"GuyZ.9058" said:
> Like I know I'm not good, but I feel like unranked can highlight some of the worse disparities in skill level that i know exist between me and some of the really good players that have been on for like 4-7 years.
Eh. The matchmaker does its thing. I tend to do better in unranked unless I'm up against an organized group. The matchmaker will not get you to a 50% win rate if that's what you're asking. That being said, you can still grind legendary armor while never winning a single match (note, I'm not talking about neck/back which absolutely do require wins).
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> @"carey.3169" said:
> Would love to see a updated version of contacts, similar to other online games, that friendship be mutually requested, and to remove unwanted followers, without having to change account details.
What's the issue with the current system? Not attacking, just curious.
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> @"yann.1946" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"yann.1946" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
> > > > > > > Heal scourge is not meta.
> > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
> > > > > > > Power Reaper is not meta.
> > > > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
> > > > > > > Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.
> > > >
> > > > O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.
> > > >
> > > > I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.
> > > >
> > > > This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.
> > > >
> > > > Take care when using
> > > > Tides of Time
> > > > as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.
> > > >
> > > > At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
> > > > Epidemic
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.
> > > >
> > > > Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
> > > > Vortex Slash
> > > > , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
> > > > Signet of the Ether
> > > > or
> > > > Signet of Inspiration
> > > > to share Aegis.
> > > >
> > > > Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
> > > > Soul Rift
> > > > , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**
> > > >
> > > > Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.
> > > >
> > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power%20boon/
> > >
> > > Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.
> >
> > It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.
>
> Let me explain then.
> Cyns point was that
> 1) snowcrows does provide nonmeta builds so the question becomes how much non meta builds should they add.
> 2)this amount will vary for different people and it will never be enough to satisfy everyone.
And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.
-
> @"yann.1946" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
> > > > > Heal scourge is not meta.
> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
> > > > > Power Reaper is not meta.
> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
> > > > > Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?
> > > >
> > > > You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.
> > >
> > > Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.
> >
> > O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.
> > >
> > > Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.
> >
> > I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:
> >
> >
> >
> > "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.
> >
> > This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.
> >
> > Take care when using
> > Tides of Time
> > as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.
> >
> > At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
> > Epidemic
> > .
> >
> > Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.
> >
> > Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
> > Vortex Slash
> > , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
> > Signet of the Ether
> > or
> > Signet of Inspiration
> > to share Aegis.
> >
> > Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
> > Soul Rift
> > , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**
> >
> > Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.
> >
> > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power%20boon/
>
> Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.
It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
> > > > > Heal scourge is not meta.
> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
> > > > > Power Reaper is not meta.
> > > > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
> > > > > Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.
> > > > >
> > > > > I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?
> > > >
> > > > You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.
> > >
> > > Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.
> >
> > O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.
> > >
> > > Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.
> >
> > I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:
> >
>
> First off, okay if you are this heel bent on "winning" the internet, I will not engage you any longer.
>
> Second:
>
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.
> >
> > This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.
> >
> > Take care when using
> > Tides of Time
> > as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.
> >
> > At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
> > Epidemic
> > .
> >
> > Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.
> >
> > Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
> > Vortex Slash
> > , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
> > Signet of the Ether
> > or
> > Signet of Inspiration
> > to share Aegis.
> >
> > Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
> > Soul Rift
> > , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**
> >
> > Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier. Eat that kitten!
> >
>
> That only shows that they do not cater to the players who don't even know their own skills or how attributes work. Which basically just reinforces my claim that you can dumb down things as much as you want, there will always be dumber players for whom this is not enough.
>
> If you can't piece together how to approach this fight when there is a disclaimer, which you also quoted btw, then no one can help you:
> **This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.**
>
> The aren is not recommended because in fact:
> A. the utility of aren is mentioned specifically under aren
> B. it is far better to take a condition renegade with RR along to cover any gaps (which both does not to change or get extra gear, and the damage loss is significantly lower than switching to power)
>
> It's once again just a simple thing of reading enough material and UNDERSTANDING or thinking about the fights. Yes, SC does not custom build your low skill compositions. They merely provide you with the tools to custom build one yourself if required.
>
> So to summarize again: you have not yet shown that SC is only catering to only meta builds or top tier players, when in fact most of their builds and explanations are for NOT meta builds. All you have shown is that there is people unable to read or make use of all the material provided to them.
So you highlight a bit about toughness when we're talking about instant death walls. How does that even make sense? It's like missing the forest for the trees. And I've seen trainers not suggest not doing CS. That's the problem. People follow these verbatim without a kill in mind, that's what the OP is saying. Also they're going into tons of detail about other, much smaller things. I totally disagree with you here. Sure people can use their brains, but the guides are not written with ease of mechanics in mind and the nitpicky detail on minor things while ignoring death walls is a great example of what the OP is talking about.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.
> > >
> > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
> > > Heal scourge is not meta.
> > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
> > > Power Reaper is not meta.
> > > https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
> > > Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.
> > >
> > > I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?
> >
> > You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?
>
>
>
> Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.
>
> Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.
O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.
>
> Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.
I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:
"**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.
This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.
Take care when using
Tides of Time
as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.
At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
Epidemic
.
Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.
Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
Vortex Slash
, for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
Signet of the Ether
or
Signet of Inspiration
to share Aegis.
Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
Soul Rift
, and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**
Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.
https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power%20boon/
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.
> > >
> >
> > I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.
>
> https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
> Heal scourge is not meta.
> https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
> Power Reaper is not meta.
> https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
> Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.
>
> I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?
You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.
>
I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> I love it. You went full circle. Man I wish I was bored enough to look up some of the responses YOU got before you got your first raid kills. The prime example of what toxicity looks like once one is "in the group". Wow, I could not have shown this better off. Thank you.
Actually I never posted here about raiding before raiding first. So no. people were saying I was inexperienced because I only did a few bosses. My thoughts on the community haven't changed much.
-
> @"Seera.5916" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Seera.5916" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > > > > > > Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.
> > > > > > I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?
> > > > >
> > > > > No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.
> > > > >
> > > > > The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.
> > > > >
> > > > > The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. **The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).**
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.
> > > >
> > > > Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.
> > > >
> > > > Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?
> > > >
> > > > Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.
> > >
> > > But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.
> > >
> > > Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.
> > >
> > > And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.
> > >
> > > **Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it**. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.
> > >
> > > Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.
> >
> > I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.
> >
> > "Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".
> > and
> > "Let's waste hours of our time learning it"
>
> Again you are MISSING THE POINT.
>
> Telling someone to do X doesn't help them.
>
> Reminds me of a saying that I'm paraphrasing: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.
>
> You're suggesting we just give people fish.
>
> I'm saying we teach people the meta: even if it's just verbal or read off of a site. Here's the meta, here's why. If people know the whys, they can adjust the build to their current skill level. You can go: "It's meta for elementalists to use the conjured weapons because they have the highest DPS skills, but you can swap to X if you don't like the conjured weapons. You'll just need to make sure your group can provide X if the boss manages to go into Y phase due to the drop in DPS."
>
> And no where did I say the first. I never once stated that anyone was an idiot if they didn't want to do something.
>
> And since when is time wasted if you're learning something? I'd rather spend 3 hours failing something and learning why than succeed on something the first try. Because we actually learn more from failing than succeeding. If we want to.
I'm not claiming that it's wasted time. I'm claiming not adjusting strategy when it makes sense is. Your wording implies that it's cutting other people off from an opportunity. You're also claiming it's handing out freebies, nothing about raiding in this game is a freebie. You can still fail SH on a more fault tolerant strategy. You're totally taking me and the OP the wrong way. Raiding in this game is hard. With or without a strategy because of the mechanics. The idiot thing is implicit: you're basically assuming people who don't want to do things the hard way are bad or stupid.
>
> It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.
>
> And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.
If you never raided then why are you arguing with people who have about something you don't understand.
-
> @"Fueki.4753" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.
>
> Why should Snow Crows be take responsibility for the actions of other people, that have nothing to do with them?
> They only provide information. What other people do with that information doesn't fall into Snow Crows' territory.
They can do what they want. But they're not getting a cent from me until they actually start caring about helping normal people clear.
KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population
in Instanced Group Content
Posted
> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > You totally sidestepped the fact that people who did the cms already were in lfg. Those backflips are amazing.
> >
>
> Since when were CMs part of the discussion? CMs are for experienced players, not new ones...
>
The op is about cms. It extrapolates quite well though. Should i report your posts as off topic?
> > Vets don't have to do anything and anet doesn't have to do anything in return if the game mode dies.
>
> Unless they have officially stopped supporting it then they still do.
>
> Your posts are kind of going all over the place with what you're saying and grasping at whatever you can. If that doesn't work then you twist things around.
Well still waiting for that next wing....
You're right i'm not responding to every little thing you say, but i think it's funny that you think taking someone with 50 kp in the group isn't a smooth run.