Kuma.1503

I'm convinced Anet could give Necros one 2 second block on a 30 second cooldown and people would be crying that Necro has "Infinite blocks"

Break the bots!

> @"Weerus.3701" said: > I'm very intrigued by ele, but never really invested into one. Where could I learn all those rotations and blasting from? :) > I was never fond of engineer tho, but it bothers me that I don't own a meduim armor class. Holo looking nice tho... > > Been playing mesmer for years, but the spot it is in, I don't really wan't to play too much with him. It's my main tho. > Thief is imo same as mesmer, decaping and only +1. Its fine and I've been doing it always. But I want some high risk/High reward. To potentially outplay oponent. Is revenant it? :pensive: > Just made HFB for fractals and it's fun. I could try it in pvp too I guess. Which build would you recomment. I do like to support. But i'm more intrigued by winning 1v1 and 2v2 etc. at the moment, as I never focused on this before. If you're interested in learning Ele, I highly reccomend checking out [Cellograg's Youtube Channel ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvpBSZfPurLAtzQj8qX6hHw) He's one of the best weavers out there, and he's got several in depth guides posted Here is a [Lightning Rod Weaver guide]( ) by Kahsua that does a good job of explaining your Bread n butter combos. [Vallun ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgcDJ60QOCj3GjHui8Ws0cg) has a few guides on his channel, including builds for Weaver, Tempest, and Support Firebrand. Check out his recent how to support video for a Firebrand build you can try out. Or if you don't mind off meta builds. I can also give you my Sage firebrand build with a quick rundown of why it takes the traits it does ect.

> @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > So based on forum posts we should: > > > > > > > > - Remove Trapper rune to balance DH > > > > > > > > - Remove Resistance rune to balance Herald > > > > > > > > - Remove Speed rune to balance Renegade > > > > > > > > Should we throw Soldier rune in there? It would hit Tempest, Healbreaker and Core shout guard in one fell swoop. That aught to tone down sustain. > > > > > > > > The game will be balanced in no time at this rate. Runes can't carry builds if there are no runes left. > > > > > > The problem is how th 6th bonus of some runes are absolutely broken OP. Just compare the 6th bonus on something like Rune of the Water: AoE (small range though) condicleanse after using a healing skill on a 20 seconds ICD... to 3 seconds of stealth and superspeed on trap usage with no ICD... what? They are not even in the same ballpark. Not to mention trap is a type of skill that guardians have access to... which of course fits perfectly. The brave defenders of Tyria, using the powers of light, justice and stealth. > > > > > > Rune of Speed turns swiftness into superspeed. How do you justify an easy access 66% speedboost when some classes are designed and balanced around being slow? Even if it's not broken currently, I don't want a necro running around with a 66% speedbuff. You want to play necro? Deal with being slow. > > > > > > I don't see problem with the rest though. I mean Resistance and Soldier runes are actually useful(unlike 90% of the runesets we get to choose from), so I get why some people are whinging about them, but they are not over the top. > > > > > > My point is, sometimes removal of a thing can be a good thing. Especially when the studio is working on the next x-pac and can't be bothered with reworks. > > > > Removing something **can** be a good thing, but it should always be a last resort. > > > > Imagine if doctors treated patients the same way Anet does balance. > > > > "So doc, I stubbed my toe this morning... I think it might be bruised." > > > > "Yup, that's gonna have to come off" > > > > "I beg your pardon--" > > > > "Nurse, grab the Gilgi saw!" > > > > Whether they're busy or not is no excuse for poor balance. It's a large corporation not a small indie dev team. If they wanted to devote resources to PvP they could. 1 or 2 people spending 1 day out of the week work over PvP issues would more than suffice. Balance would be slow, but they could at least ensure patches were of higher quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When your little finger has a cancerous growth, taking time to weigh your options puts you at risk for metastasis. Trapper Rune is not a bruise, it's one of the main reason players leave the gamemode in drowes. If you take too long to balance, there will be no point in balancing. You're not operating on a dead patient. > To be fair, every time something becomes popular and strong in PvP it becomes the new "main reason why players are leaving". I've heard the same thing about condi rev, renegade, nade holo, condi thief... The best things I could compare to a cancerous growth would be gamebreaking bugs, bots, exploits, cheating/hacking, wintrading. These are the kinds of things that need to be dealt with immediately. (And unfortunately, many of them haven't). The problem in this context that we're too quick to call for an excision before we've even done a proper diagnosis. That mole growing on your foot might be benign, it sure would suck to lose an entire foot to something that would have caused you a few inconveniences at worse, but enough of the medical analogies. Others have suggested ways that these runes can be balanced without the need to remove them. Whether it be an ICD, rework, or other tweaks. With their limited man power in mind, the easiest solution would be to give the rune an ICD. If it still proves to be problematic despite attempts to balance it, then removal should be considered. > Also them working on EoD is not an excuse, it's a reason. I abhore how they just let the MMO with the best combat system rot away like this, but hey, I'm not the one giving the devs next months payckeck so... all I can do is **casually** boo from the sidelines. Sucks when the average player seems to care 10x more about the game than the creators (specifically the higher ups) do, but yeah. It's about all we can do.

> @"Bazsi.2734" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > So based on forum posts we should: > > > > - Remove Trapper rune to balance DH > > > > - Remove Resistance rune to balance Herald > > > > - Remove Speed rune to balance Renegade > > > > Should we throw Soldier rune in there? It would hit Tempest, Healbreaker and Core shout guard in one fell swoop. That aught to tone down sustain. > > > > The game will be balanced in no time at this rate. Runes can't carry builds if there are no runes left. > > The problem is how th 6th bonus of some runes are absolutely broken OP. Just compare the 6th bonus on something like Rune of the Water: AoE (small range though) condicleanse after using a healing skill on a 20 seconds ICD... to 3 seconds of stealth and superspeed on trap usage with no ICD... what? They are not even in the same ballpark. Not to mention trap is a type of skill that guardians have access to... which of course fits perfectly. The brave defenders of Tyria, using the powers of light, justice and stealth. > > Rune of Speed turns swiftness into superspeed. How do you justify an easy access 66% speedboost when some classes are designed and balanced around being slow? Even if it's not broken currently, I don't want a necro running around with a 66% speedbuff. You want to play necro? Deal with being slow. > > I don't see problem with the rest though. I mean Resistance and Soldier runes are actually useful(unlike 90% of the runesets we get to choose from), so I get why some people are whinging about them, but they are not over the top. > > My point is, sometimes removal of a thing can be a good thing. Especially when the studio is working on the next x-pac and can't be bothered with reworks. Removing something **can** be a good thing, but it should always be a last resort. Imagine if doctors treated patients the same way Anet does balance. "So doc, I stubbed my toe this morning... I think it might be bruised." "Yup, that's gonna have to come off" "I beg your pardon--" "Nurse, grab the Gilgi saw!" Whether they're busy or not is no excuse for poor balance. It's a large corporation not a small indie dev team. If they wanted to devote resources to PvP they could. 1 or 2 people spending 1 day out of the week work over PvP issues would more than suffice. Balance would be slow, but they could at least ensure patches were of higher quality.

Some classes have lower skill floors than others, but every class, even the ones considered easy by the community will have a decent skill cap attached. If you're looking for classes that will take the most time to master, you've got some options depending on which playstyle you prefer. Combo field play/ High APM / Playing "Piano" with your Keyboard - Elementalist - Engineer These are my personal favorite two classes. If you like high APM, blasting combofields, and always having a ton of buttons to press, these are the classes for you. The skill cap in both comes in learning to manage your huge reservoir of skills and pick out the best one(s) for each situation. To balance out their massive kits, It may take them 3+ actions to accomplish what other classes can with a single button press, but that's part of the fun. There's just something satisfying about weaving through attunements to blast your water fields 4 times in quick succession as an elementalist, or comboing smoke bomb into acid bomb and then landing a surprise holographic shockwave from stealth (Yes I run bomb kit in pvp. It's a blast. Literally) High Mobility/ Burst / Outplay potential - Mesmer - Thief - Revenant Thief has the lowest skill floor out of all of these, but some argue it has the highest skill cap. It's a class that mainly gets to shine in PvP, but it's fun mastering their skill combos and all their tips and tricks. If you like being the solo carry, this is the class for you. Mesmer is what you get if you cross a thief with a mage and sprinked some illusion magic on top. It's got both a high skill ceiling and a high skill cap. This is partially because they're in a rough spot right now, and partially because there's a deceptive amount of depth to each of their skills. You will need to take some time to learn them before you start to do well. The benefit is that it's a very fun and rewarding class once you get good at it. Revenant is the edgy love child of warrior and thief. It's a bit slower and a bit more telegraphed than thief, but it makes up for it with higher damage and higher sustain. Alac renegade is arguably the hardest build to master in PvE, and Power Herald is one of the harder classes to play in PvP. Rev has a med-high skill floor (depending how long it takes you to learn their energy system) and a med-high skill cap. It's also a rewarding class to main currently. It's top tier in both PvE and PvP, and has been for some time. Finally if you're looking for a support that will take you some time to master, you can't get any better than.. **Firebrand.** Where elementalists have attunements, and engineers have kits, Firebrand has tomes. These have significantly higher cooldowns in exchange for higher impact. You will need to learn how to use these at the right time on top of your usual weapon skills in order to succeed. Guardian as a whole is a versatile class that will serve you well in **any game mode** if you choose to main it.

So based on forum posts we should: - Remove Trapper rune to balance DH - Remove Resistance rune to balance Herald - Remove Speed rune to balance Renegade Should we throw Soldier rune in there? It would hit Tempest, Healbreaker and Core shout guard in one fell swoop. That aught to tone down sustain. The game will be balanced in no time at this rate. Runes can't carry builds if there are no runes left.

You weren't kidding about it being game breaking. This needs to be hotfixed.

> @"Ryan.9387" said: > Minion necro. It does better the worse you play. I laughed way harder at this than I should've. Second this though :lol:

> @"Kodama.6453" said: > @"Leonidrex.5649" > And core engineer is also a dead class, so why can't we let it have something good for once? > > I brought it up in the thief thread, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention it here. As far as Anet is concerned... if it's overperforming on the elite spec, it's overperforming on **every spec**. Hate to say it because, frankly, seeing core engi suffer for Holo's sins got old a long time ago. At least I can laugh cynically when it happens to other classes (lul thief) now. Shame I don't have a cat or a monocle because this would make for a sick villain origin story. :D

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"Kuma.1503" > PB is fine cuz it takes effort to use, rewards skill-full use while not rewarding poor use, and more rounded active trait, rather then over the top do it all passive spam trait. > mesmer being a dead class has a huge part in it too lol. It's one of my favorite traits tbh. It rewards proper timing and predictions. I wouldn't mind EE being reworked into something similar. Something you can use more mindfully. I was doing some brainstorming, and I came up with one appealing sounding idea. It would take some effort on the dev's part to impliment, but it could help to round out Engi's core kit. Instead of "deal damage on hit after you dodge" what if explosive entrance was literally an explosive entrance... ... ... or exit. To activate, perform a dodge jump. You will be rocketed forward a set distance in the direction you dodge, evading and dealing damage at both your starting and ending location. Instead of a cooldown, give it 3 seconds of Exhaustion. This would add some additional risk while also adding a bit of a trade-off vs dodging regularly. Because this is a set distance, there will be skillfullness in learning the range so you can land it. Not to mention... it would be fun to use. It will change how you interact with terrain.

Why do people use the word "balance" when they really mean "nerf"? Rev needs more than a few shaves here and there. The main thing the class needs is a rework of their utility skills. They do way too much, and this has forced ANet to compensate by bloating energy costs. ANet should remove some functionality from their utilities in exchange for lowered costs.

> @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > > > Ergo > > > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > > > > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > > > > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > > > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > > > > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > > > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > > > > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > > > > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > > > > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > > > > > > > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? > > > > If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. > > I will have to test in game (incase the wiki tool tip is off) but I dont think you are correct here. (unless it really is off) > base 121 with a .33 cof strike damage on Inv.Torment > vs > base 239 with a .90 cof strike damage on EE > You would be lucky to see Inv. Torment do half as much as EE with base numbers like these to be honest with you. > Based on the pvp only scaling incase you peeked at the wrong thing but that does not seems like a mistake you would make so I'll assume there is a high chance the wiki tool tip is wrong and give it a look in game later. > > In total damage yes Inv. Torment will do more as it also applies a torment stack (assuming it sticks for the full duration) > How ever its also limited to the 10s cool down and basically a small area outside of melee range. > > > > > To pair off the benefits of both > > > > Invoke Torment > > - Does more power damage > Will have to confirm this later. > > - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. > You can only pick 1 of these not all 3. > 1 just adds damage which is fine for a grandmaster > 2 grants 1s of resistance the utility here is basically does not exists which is why its not often used. > 3 grants decent utility as a transfer but based on what im told can be clunky at times > > - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. > > This is kind of situational while you are correct its not always the case that they can swap ontop of you and then there is still the matter of the cd using it as often as posible does not make the cd not exists I personally view EE being an auto refresh on 10s cd as more balanced than it currently is right now. I wont demand the idea but im also not against it i just think it would be more fair by comparison of other trait standards throughout the game. > > > Explosive Entrance > > - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) > > - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health > > - Applies weak barrier (traited) > > Unlike the pervious both can be taken at the same time regardless of how strong one views the benefits of adding the utility it still adds utility. > Especially in the case of flashbang triggering a cc which the majority of which should not be dealing damage at this point. That trait in itself does make EE an outlier among many things as anets goal was to basically not have instant cc attacks doing 3-5k damage or more which EE was doing it can probably still hit close to 5k on light armors. > Yes I understand the cc only triggers on basically max health targets but this is still not a fact to be ignored. > > My question is still why do other traits that have damage procing effects not have anywhere near close to the damage of EE with its utility trait addons or why adding utility to EE does not reduce its damage similarly to other traits. > > Anet, allegedly, standardized them to not be both on hit proc damage and utility in pvp. This is why people want EE nerfed more because it breaks the standard for most of the skills they have that do act in a similar way. > While not all those traits have an entire line or 2-3 parts of trait line pointing at a minor trait like EE does, this is only because EE is still for the most part is new in the game from the explosives rework so its been a sore spot for people for while as it was doing far higher numbers than what it is now and many people still consider 3-5k too high for a on hit proc. > > I would argue the same for Inv. torment to be honest if it was bursting people for more than 3-5k instantly while transferring conditions for example. > (I will do more research on inv. torment next time i log on just to see what kind of raw numbers it can hit) > I'm just saying... > I understand the "why" people want it toned down more still because in comparison to many other things its still hitting hard even with the minor/major utilities attached onto it. > Hold up a second, you are right. I wasn't aware of the skill split. This puts EE comfortably ahead of it in terms of power damage. Factoring that in, EE should be the strongest trait of it's type in terms of raw dps. With this in mind EE is (objectively) overperforming as far as on hit procs go. It still lags behind in utility in comparison to traits like Power Block, but it's leagues ahead in damage. It's worth asking why traits like IT and Power Block are considered acceptable while EE is not. It could have its power damage reduced in exchange for a bit of utility, ideally proccing in a way that is more active in nature. This is something I'll have to think on, but for now, you can I can both agree that it is a problem in it's current iteration. In the interest of not gutting core engi further It is worth looking into re allocating that power into healthier areas, but solutions will need to be simple and easy to execute, given how Anet has been approaching balance lately. If no easy solution can be found, the most easiest solution is to standardize it at a 0.5 coeff. When factoring in the explosive synergy it has with the rest of the line, this would put it in line with Reckless Dodge. (They could take that extra 0.4 coefficient and put it back into nade barrage so that it hits harder than Shrapnel Grenade again. Rounded up that's +0.07 per nade. It would still be a nerf overall, since EE has a much shorter cooldown, but it would buff back a skill that should be the hardest hitter in the nade kit).

As they say in the fighting game community "Play lame, win game".

And then some rando gets a 1v1 with an enemy minion mancer on far. And because he's hitting 7 different targets that don't dodge, he ends up with 40% of the teams damage. Better report the zerker thief for throwing. Actually, just nerf thief.

> @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > Renegade: > > Sevenshot nerf. Sustain cut. > > What would you cut on Renegade when there's nothing to remove, there's only core that's left in an already pathetic inconsistent state. Steadfast has been nerfed twice and is not anymore effective than Versed In Stone (And never was.), Righteous Rebel is not used in the meta, Wrought Iron-Will does nothing that overperforms, Brutal Momentum is high risk high reward. > > It baffles me that people think Renegade or Sevenshot right now is the problem where as the build because of speed rune is nearly untouchable unless you have it yourself or have means to constantly strip or pressure at range within the same time of negating weakness. The mobility is the real issue and there's literally nothing left to nerf without killing the class altogether just so we can have the same BORING Herald Power all over the place again which might as well be considered dead the moment Resistance gets nerfed also, good riddance though, I hate that Rune with a passion and it's been carrying TOO MANY builds right now, including Herald Condition as well. > > Seriously, what could you nerf. The vague statement that you suggest alone really shows that even yourself don't know. > > We could nerf Sevenshot even more but that won't stop people from running around and away from all danger just poking damage over and over while sharing the intricate sustain of Core Revenant that works "good" enough right now unless you add speed runes and just avoid everything altogether to camp upkeep and don't even play the class at all. It's seriously boring, most of Renegade relies around not using evades to maximize damage and it's obvious where the problem comes when one rune makes it so you NEVER have to dodge or avoid everything with movement speed that is not available outside Superspeed which is available to almost no one or niches like Impossible Odds + Rising Momentum but these two have an actual cost to be had unlike the unfathomable amount of Swiftness that's easily accessible. > > Y'all should look at Bloodbane Path and Spiritcrush instead, those skills haven't had their PvP co-efficient split yet and are undeniably just as heavy hitting as Sevenshot in the right instances. In fact, Sevenshot at best with the current used build can do 5k or so with 25 Might and 6k on zerk, it's definitely lower than what it used to be and the other skills are to be put in consideration because BP does add easily 2k to this, 3k if you're zerk when EVERYTHING crits. Y'know... The fact that you took that post seriously really makes me question some things. What if ANet took it seriously? How many dumb half-baked arguments must you have slogged through that this one, a parody, hardly stood out from the rest? ...Either that or you stopped reading at the first line and decided to write a 4 paragraph long rebuttal on it. :P If so, you should really give the rest of the post a read over, especially the "Weaver chills itself" bit... I mean... I thought it was funny...

Been beating that horse for months mate... You're welcome to try with me if you'd like.

> @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > Ergo > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. To pair off the benefits of both Invoke Torment - Does more power damage - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. Explosive Entrance - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health - Applies weak barrier (traited) Both have their benefits in relation to each other, but I would not say EE is out of line in comparison to Invoke Torment.

> @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > Ergo > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > Power Block (Mesmer) > Chill of Death (Necro) > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage.

> @"Beezl.4180" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > Flamethrower scrapper has been a meme for a long time. It's an easy to play build that demolishes inexperienced players. > > thats the dumbest thing ive heard, not being able to ccs a person has nothing to do with inexperience you cant just wait him out or something like that, it makes 0 sense for him to be perma unccable it cancels out the whole point of having a cc system or skills and you can be as skilled as you want the only thing you can do is run away. I was going to respond with the typical "You counter the build with X" but it looks like Kodama beat me to it. One countermeasure that he did not mention is soft CC. A major weakness of the build is conditions, and while this might not seem relevant for power builds, you can still use this to your advantage. Cripple and Chill are effective and helping you kite them. They have limited cleanse. Their alternative countermeasure will be superspeed. They get this by burning their heal skill or heal toolbelt, so keep an eye out. **Stability and superspeed do nothing against immobilize**. For Power builds, if you must trade with them, try to place weakness onto them first. You will lower the frequency at which they can crit and reduce the damage they deal. Because their sustain is tied to their damage, this will also make them squishier. Aside from that, The best advice I can give you is to play the build yourself. You will meet players who will try (and fail) to facetank flamethrower and trade with you, and you'll meet players who will use a variety of tactics to beat you. Pay close attention to what they're doing. When you fight someone else using the build, you ca do the same thing yourself.

Coming from league, this is just how team games work. Your rating isn't a measure of how mechanically skilled you are in comparison to everyone else. It's a measure of how skilled you are **and** how capable you are at working as a team. A great player can win their 1v1's and occasional 1v2s, consistently grab most top stats, and know when and where they should rotate under ideal scenarios. The best players know how to do all of that while also adapting to 4 other unpredictabale players on their team. This means keeping your cool and making the best of a bad situation when someone inevitably spawns and runs mid into a 1v4 and dies. This means not wasting precious mental energy that could be spent strategizing on critiquing the gameplay of your warrior who's losing sides to a build he should counter. ...Of course all of this falls flat when Anet allows bots and wintrades to exist.

> @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate?

The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" Also the fourms: "Wtf, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!"

Whenever I see one I just refuse to interact with them. What are they gonna do? Walk angrily in my direction?

Well they could start by reverting the patch that killed off the population, make a big announcement on the forums like they did last time. Might get some better matchmaking when there are actually players to matchmake.