mortrialus.3062
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Posts posted by mortrialus.3062
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> @"Chaith.8256" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Because every time people point it out you come in and say "no you can't possible nerf X_thing_that_enables_holosmith_to_be_the_safest_build_in_the_game."
>
> That's because you can eliminate the safety of Holosmith without smacking Scrapper or Core, which I know many people have said to you already, but you're convinced that Engineer must be nerfed in 7 ways bare minimum across the board. Without Elixir U being what it is, the soloq potential is vastly reduced.
Unique ways the Holosmith as a specialization makes it safe; Prismatic Converter, Heat Therapy, Traited Corona Burst, Photon Wall, Spectrum Shield, Vent Exhaust,
The ways core engineer makes Holosmith the safest spec to play in the game; Elixir U, Elixir S, Healing Turret, Cleansing Burst, Toss Elixir S, Hidden Flask, Invigorating Speed, Transmute, Emergency Elixir, Compounding Chemicals, HGH.
If they're Prot holo the way core Engineer enables them to be more safe is:
Healing Turret, Mortar Kit, Cleansing Pulse, Overshield, Reconstruction Enclosure, Energy Amplifier, Anticorrosion Plating, Hidden Flask, Invigorating Speed, Transmute, Elixir E, Compounding Chemicals, Iron Blooded,
Something is got to give. And to be honest, all of the sustain traits and all of the sustain utilities on holosmith can be hard disabled and it probably won't be enough. And yeah, core engineer needs some help. But where core Engineer needs help has never been it's utility or support or sustain, because those have always been overloaded. It's because it's weapon options are below mediocre and kits are so flawed as to not make up for that even closely.
Like I'm sure you know how inflexible something like Pistol+Pistol is and how it could use some sort of disengage like a leap away flip over skill on the glue shot. I'm sure you know how if you want to hybridize between pistol+pistol and pistol+shield you give up too much damage. I'm sure you know all the engineer kits are weirdly and outdatedly hybridized between condition and power damage, or their method of delivering damage just isn't good like Bomb Kit being entirely PBAOE and Grenade being entirely ground targeted AOE with Grenade Kit.
And you and I both know you know that.
You give core engineer a main weapon loadout or kit as well rounded and fully realized as Warrior Greatsword, or Mesmer Scepter+Pistol and you'd immediately have one of the strongest builds to ever exist in the game because of all the utility and traits backing it. It's why scrapper spent most of HoT as a top tier build and why holo has spent most of PoF as a god tier buid. Because that's what happens when you plug top tier weapon kits into engineer traitlines.
The OP traits on Holo, the OP traits an utilities on core engineer should be nerfed. And kits should be redisigned across the board in a massive rework.
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> @"Chaith.8256" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Power Mirage and Deadeye are both high risk and skill cap enough where only about 2-5 people play it well enough to hit the top 100 on said build, EU or NA.
> >
> > Holosmith **is as low risk as you can possibly get**,
> I've been repeatedly saying that Holosmith is not high risk ... why are you telling me this like I don't know? Lmfao...
>
>
Because every time people point it out you come in and say "no you can't possible nerf X_thing_that_enables_holosmith_to_be_the_safest_build_in_the_game."
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> @"Chaith.8256" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > And Whataboutx isn't a great argument even though I humored you about it.
>
> Whataboutx is not my argument.. so no idea what you're talking about. I was clearly illustrating of the differences between 2 of the multiple high risk high reward builds versus specs that aren't at the high reward omega burst combos from stealth or afar that doesn't rely on chain CC'ing opponents without stunbreak & stab. Obviously if you have a low risk build it evens out
Power Mirage and Deadeye are both high risk and skill cap enough where only about 2-5 people play it well enough to hit the top 100 on said build, EU or NA.
Holosmith **is as low risk as you can possibly get**, hence why so many people have used it to get God of PvP and why it's all over the top 100 on both EU and NA and why holosmith mains were frequently hitting 60% usage per match in platinuum ranked on NA last season.
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> @"Chaith.8256" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > Bruiser is a useless term that at best only means having a mix of physical defense and physical offense.
>
> No, it's a useful term that actually differentiates bursty and glassy damage dealers from sustained damage & defense brawlers.
>
> > And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that both Scrapper [very explicitly designed](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88470/upcoming-balance-notes-10-1-2019/p1 "very explicitly designed") to be a Bruiser and Holosmith ending up being a bruiser will always cause issues in design and giving both specializations a role/niche until holosmith is forced into a glass canon role.
>
> Scrapper and Holo are the exact same role, that's my entire point. The design intent is not to be that way, **bro, I know.** Holo will never be forced into a glass cannon role, that's nonsense. Holo damage isn't even high-reward enough by nature, such as power mesmer or deadeye. It's just such high sustain so that you can reliably overwhelm people over time with spam. If Holo was as glass cannon defensively as Deadeye or Power Mesmer, without a reliable high burst combo it'd be trashcan. Holo will never be glass cannon without extreme reworks to increase burst and decrease sustain. (EDIT: Possibly forcing Holos into Photonic Blasting Module playstyles could achieve this, instead of spammy vent exhaust assaults.) Therefore, Holo is not even fundamentally built to be a mandatory high risk high reward, it's very foundation is contrary to the intent, it's meta build is a bruiser archetype, neither high risk nor high reward.
>
>
> > Holosmith isn't a bruiser. It's a Master-Of-All.
>
> You're just jumping in on a conversation only about the glass cannon vs. bruiser archetypes and inserting more "Holo is overtuned." **Yeah bro, we know it's among the best bruisers.**
>
Bruiser became more of a legitimate term specifically in regards to League of Legends because of the way that game is design the development team found that melee dps were so severely underpowered compared to range that they needed to be especially buffed defensively in order to compete. So the game had two ways of dealing melee DPS, assassin which are extremely fast or bruiser which are slow but defensive. Key point being slow. Holo is far, far to mobile and slippery to be considered slow by any metric. It's probably 3rd in terms of decap/chase/disengage behind thief and sword mirage.
You can design Holosmith to be glassy and difficulty and risky to play without needing to increase it's damage. It's damage and CC is already capable of rushing down an enemy extremely quickly (Oh and Rush Down is an _actually_ useful term to describe gameplay style). And good holosmiths will dunk on players doing exactly that. The problem is that the second the get outplayed because of their resustain and disengage they can jack hammer you 2-3-4 times until they get the kill because of their extremely over the top resustain potential. If you're really outplaying an opponent you shouldn't need that many resets.
Regarding Deadeye and Power Mesmer, I have serious issues with how those playstyles exist in their current form as well. Deadeye was originally designed to be very similar to draw comparison to an Exodia Deck playstyle. They knew putting a legit sniper rifle character into an RPG is a difficult balance talk. So that's why malice existed but there had a number of clear design flaws in rifle and core thief traits that rewarded just sitting around stealthed casually accumulating malice until you hit max malice stacks and one shot an opponent. Deadeye should be a medium damage ranged class with a unique Exodia Deck style mechanic, it just shouldn't be able to have permanent stealth while doing so and rely more on good positioning.
And Power Memser I have a laundry list of issues with but I 100% feel it's damage should be forcibly decompressed so it can't overlap into an effective one shot mechanic. I have the opposite opinion of condition mirage, it's damage potential should be forcibly compressed from an endless barrage of clone autos and ambush attacks where at any given time there is a damage pulse theatening into a handful of weapon skill shots and scatters needed to down opponents.
And Whataboutx isn't a great argument even though I humored you about it.
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> @"Chaith.8256" said:
> > @"Ghos.1326" said:
> > @"Arheundel.6451" I disagree that holosmith is a bruiser. It's more intended for higher damages. It can go the bruiser route with some of its utilities and traits, but in general, it's made for damaging roles.
>
> There's a difference between the initial intention of Holosmith by ArenaNet in the expansion description, and live gameplay though. According to that same original description, Scourge would be a support and Firebrand would be a burn focused spec.
>
> Holosmith is a bruiser through and through, it has very straightforward attacks, not a lot of burst, only Photon Wall to allow it to play offensive and defensive simultaneously, no boon rip, or instantaneous movement. It goes all in to high sustained healing, high sutained damage, and hammer Warrior-esque chain-able CC. It's a textbook bruiser.
Bruiser is a useless term that at best only means having a mix of physical defense and physical offense.
And I'm sure you're smart enough to realize that both Scrapper [very explicitly designed](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88470/upcoming-balance-notes-10-1-2019/p1 "very explicitly designed") to be a Bruiser and Holosmith ending up being a bruiser will always cause issues in design and giving both specializations a role/niche until holosmith is forced into a glass canon role.
Holosmith isn't a bruiser. It's a Master-Of-All.
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Symbol Firebrand is concerning but it hasn't become much of a thing in ranked yet from my experience. If it starts to trend really upward, which it might, we can address it as it comes.
But now that groups are widely running ATs with Double Firebrand shows something really does need to be done about the Elite Specialization.
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> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > > > > > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **General**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel
> > > > >
> > > > > ^ Not sure if that is a wise idea _right now._ A lot of the balance that we actually do have, is because of this single sigil. This very important single sigil, is what allows certain attacks from certain classes to be viable at all. If this sigil is removed, it will greatly effect the performance of certain build archetypes that utilize slower attacks during bursts, due to the sigil of agility. Some of these attacks that have honed in the balance structures of certain builds, have done so only due to the sigil of agility. I suggest maybe lowering the quickness uptime from 2s to 1s or something like that. But I believe that removing it entirely at this point, may cause more problems than it would solve. It's going to be a situation where, if it is removed, certain build archetypes will still survive because their animation times are juuuust fast enough to remain viable and practical, but certain other build archetypes which were already utilizing slower animation frames, will become too slow to be practical. When that happens, it is likely that the meta will flip flop all over the place again, and builds that were once balanced due to sigil of agility will become unviable, and builds like Holosmith that never needed it to begin with, will prosper in its absence, despite the incoming nerfs to Holo quick uptime.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Condi Thief**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
> > > > > > * Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only
> > > > >
> > > > > ^ I believe the nerf to Spider Venom will effect Condi DrD much more than most people are realizing right now. This nerf should be adequate.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Holosmith**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
> > > > > > * Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only
> > > > >
> > > > > ^ It's going to need more nerfing than that. This spec's overperformance is currently disgusting. You certainly should nerf the quickness on U as well. But it seriously needs to lose the sustain from Heat Therapy and Forge needs to be put on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game has. If you don't go deep on this one, it's going to keep driving off player base as people are REALLY getting tired of dealing with a class that is both easy & powerful for new users to use AND has a high skill ceiling for veteran players. It's too much.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Condi Mirage**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
> > > > > > * Phantasmal Warlock:
> > > > > > + Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
> > > > > > + Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
> > > > > > * Chaos Vortex:
> > > > > > + Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
> > > > > > + Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
> > > > > > + Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only
> > > > >
> > > > > ^ I believe this all very unnecessary. The only thing it needs, is a shift on some of its damage from clone ambush, onto shatter play. This way the Mirage has to be offensive to deal the same level of damage, rather than be allowed to 100% defense while spamming clone ambush damage.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Rampage**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
> > > > > > + Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
> > > > > > + Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
> > > > > > + Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only
> > > > >
> > > > > ^ Oh that'll definitely be a strong nerf, maybe a bit too strong.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Warrior’s Cunning**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.
> > > > >
> > > > > ^ Hrm, I think it would be more reasonable to go maybe: above 90% health is 10% damage, and then when opponent has barrier is 25% damage. Not sure it needs that big of a nerf.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > **Staff Thief**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > * Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only
> > > > > > * Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only
> > > > > > * Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only
> > > > >
> > > > > ^ The Staff Thieves out there would give better feedback than me, but I think it's mostly important that the animation exploits are fixed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You mean that **sigil of agility** has removed counterplay from many skills whose big dmg was justified by their slow animation/cast time...in that regard the removal of the sigil is simply a **brilliant idea**
> > > >
> > > > P.S Holosmith is tolerable right now and not really that OP compared to the status quo, the reduction in quickness rather than sustain nerf at this point is again a brilliant idea , holosmith is a bruiser and to keep up with the current trends in power dmg/PvE and WvW..their sustain is justified, with the reduction of the dmg and less access to quickness...they become tolerable
> > >
> > > No, that's not what I meant at all. What I meant was exactly what I said.
> > >
> > > Holosmith is in no way tolerable, as indicated by 99.9% of the community feedback. You are actually the first person I've seen say anything at all to defend it or attempt to water down opinions of its clear overperformance. In fact, I think that "Holosmith being grossly overpowered in its current state" is the first thing I've seen everyone in this forum actually agree on, to the point that Holosmith mains don't even argue against that opinion, but rather show up in-thread and agree with everyone, while honestly trying to help better the flow of suggestions on how to fix it. So we can INB4 this "Holosmith isn't that strong" thing you got going on here.
> > >
> > > Also, I was actually the first person to suggest quickness nerfs to Holosmith as a suggestion to bring down its overall DPS factor, as well as its capability to abuse water field blasting/leaping. It was posted in a thread several months ago, which ended up becoming a popular opinion. But what I'm telling you now, is that these quickness nerfs to Holosmith won't be enough to effect its performance vs. other classes/builds if Sigil Of Agility is removed along with the direct Holosmith nerfs. The removal of Sigil Of Agility and the nerfs to Holo Quickness will nerf the Quickness uptime of a Holosmith, but he'll still have quite frequent Quickness application nonetheless. However, the removal of Sigil Of Agility will actually remove MOST if not ALL of the Quickness application for other classes/builds. This will result in an effect where the Holosmith will remain just as proportionately powerful in the next meta, as he is now in this meta. If Sigil Of Agility were to be kept upon this next patch, then the Quickness nerfs to Holo would be adequate to bring Holosmith down to the level of other specs.
> > >
> > > Note that I never vouched for or against Sigil Of Agility. I said that: "It might not be a good idea to remove it right now" as in, wait for a better patch to release the removal of the sigil. Cal had already stated that this next patch was going to be sort of a "fit in the quick stuff that is easy to do" kind of thing. Removing the Sigil Of Agility is not going to be a "Quick Fix" kind of thing. It's going to come with significant disproportionate changes & shifts to the existing balance that we have now. It is not going to lower the power creep in equalized balanced ways amongst every class. I believe it would be a better idea to wait for a larger and more organized patch to remove the sigil, one that will be able to compensate for the lopsided varying differences in balance effects that it will make vs. every class individually. IE: Removing Sigil Of Agility isn't a big loss in Quickness uptime for a Holosmith, but it is the only Quickness uptime that a Core Guardian has for his burst at all.
> > >
> > > If you still aren't able to "See" what I'm trying to explain here, I'll just say that: You should be careful what you wish for.
> >
> > **The only really good builds that weren't using it were Condition Thief, Fire Weaver, and Condition Mirage.**
> >
>
> Not arguing with you, I'd like to see the rune go away myself. I just want to see it happen later, when it won't create a bunch of balance issues when it happens. I think that the game has been being indirectly balanced around the Sigil Of Agility for a lot longer than we've all previously noticed. I believe the removal of the Sigil Of Agility is going to have wonkier effects than any of us are quite identifying at the moment.
>
> What you said here in the bolded is what I mean. Removing the Sigil Of Agility won't effect those builds at all, but it will greatly effect the performance of certain other builds that are only viable to keep up with Condi Thief/Fire Weaver/Condi Mirage due to the Sigil Of Agility. This shows that the removal of the Sigil Of Agility is not lowering creep in a proportional way amongst all classes/builds, but rather removing it has no effect on some class/build performance but greatly effects the performance of others. This works against the idea of "Bringing the power levels and viability of all classes/builds towards the median" and instead begins to push them away from the median because the change creates decline in some build's performances, but doesn't effect other builds at all. Core Guardian again as one example, is currently viewed as counter play against things like the aforementioned classes, but the Core Guardian will likely drop out of viability completely when he's dealing half the DPS on his burst that he is now, after Sigil Of Agility is removed.
>
> Really, the more I discuss this the more it's brought up, the more I realize that removing Sigil Of Agility is going to be effecting the power based builds that are in play right now. When power bursting on swap goes to literally half the DPS that it is now, due to the removal of Sigil Of Agility, in addition to the nerfs being laid down on Holosmith and Rampage, we'll probably be seeing a new condi meta roll in. Power based builds are going to be taking an enormous hit to their damage potentials & practicalities to land the hits on the weapon swap, in addition to rather large trait/utility nerfs. The current condi builds however, are seeing only shaves to their current performance, and Weaver at that, isn't being touched at all.
>
> I'm worried that this is what we'll be looking at:
>
> * Not the balancing of currently dominant power specs, but the falling out of those power specs.
> * Fire Weaver side node dominance. Without power builds that are capable of pushing out enough DPS to actually have kill potential 1v1 against Fire Weaver, Fire Weaver will become dominant on side nodes. Then of course condis aren't that threatening to the Weaver. The Fire Weaver is going to be unkillable in 1v1s. Nothing in the game will be able to get it off a node unless the difference in the two player's skill levels is large where, the attacker is a good player and the Weaver is a bad player. The condis of course punished Herald to begin with and now Herald is losing quick uptime = loss in DPS. Rampage was the only way for a Warrior to secure a kill on a good Weaver, which now Rampage is being nerfed damage wise and Warrior is losing quickness uptime to land these kinds of hits to begin with. Holosmith is losing A LOT of quickness uptime to the point that it's not going to be realistic for a Holosmith to push out enough raw DPS to land kill opportunity on a good Fire Weaver. Then of course Staff/Staff is getting gutted. And then all other power specs were already losing to Fire Weaver, except in the case that the players on those specs were just better players than the Fire Weaver. Those specs that were already losing are going to have it even worse when that burst potential on swap is removed when we see Sigil Of Agility go.
> * Condi Mirage & Condi Thieves will be the runners up for side node dominance, 2nd only to the Fire Weaver because their condi damage can't provide realistic kill potential vs. a good Weaver. On top of that, Condi Mirage & Condi Thieves will both be seeing some damage shaves. Condi Mirage & Condi Thieves will begin to clearly dominant everything other than Fire Weavers in 1v1 situations, for all of the same reasons already listed above.
> * The most annoying and boring part about the above ^ is that those 3 classes won't actually be able to kill each other in side node battles. 9/10 times the fights will result in stalemates or someone just running away if they are losing.
> * Scourge will definitely come back with the nerfs to Warrior's Cunning, the lack of power CC play, and with all of the cover condi spam play that is going to begin happening, to create even more condi cover spam play in team fights. Core Necro may become a REAL thing due to its resistance vs. conditions.
> * All of the cover condi spam play is going to make Sage FB an undeniable must have MVP in any team comp. In fact, it will more than likely be a great idea to always run two of them, not only for the obvious condi cleanse & other support, but also for those AoE burn stacks amongst all of the condi cover.
> * Core War & Spellbreaker after nerfs, Core Guard after Agility is gone, Herald with its condi vulnerability, Holo after nerfs with its condi vulnerability, and Reaper, are going to be completely #$%^ out of luck in a new approaching sheer condi meta. And the nastiest thing here is that if those builds try to stat for more resistance vs. condi, they'll lose too much damage potential to be viable at all. Well Herald could get away with it while using Shao's build but that's about it, and then we'll be seeing a lot of Mallyx in play to add to the condi meta. The other classes can't stray from their current build structures without becoming completely unviable off-meta garbage.
> * Power Rangers & Deadeyes on the other hand, will see increased representation due to their extreme ranged to stay away from condi mess to begin with, and the lack of the presence of their normal power based counters.
>
> ^ If my forecast is even roughly accurate, that meta is going to kitten everyone off far far worse than the meta we have now. You're talking nothing but messy condi AoE splashing with little to no tell animations, and high power damage ranged all over the place that not many classes/builds in play will even be able to chase. These are the two things that we have by far seen complained about in the forums more than anything else.
>
> I think that Arenanet needs to seriously evaluate the decision to make all of those class nerfs at the same time they want to remove Sigil Of Agility. In my opinion it would be wise to either do the class nerfs as is listed and leave Sigil Of Agility in play, or remove Sigil Of Agility and lighten up on those class nerfs. But removing the sigil at the same time they deal out these heavy handed nerfs, while NOT touching things like Weaver, is going to push condi to the top, which in turns pushes other certain things out, which in turn allows weird things to come in with presence that were not present before. AND YES, the removal of the Sigil Of Agility will effect the game's dynamic every bit as much as it did when Sigils Of Blood and Sigils Of Leeching were removed.
>
> I guess to me, the question is really this, and this question has no right or wrong answer:
>
> Although the removal of Sigil Of Agility may be healthy in the long run, is it worth doing right now? Are players ready to deal with the shifts & consequences for the next 2 or 4 or 6 months until they can be compensated for, through Arenanet's patching schedules?
I think you underestimate the Mirage Staff Ambush nerf. That's going to be huge. A massive, massive hit to Mirage's capacity to soften a target up before going in for the kill with Pistol. I think you'll see a very noticeable migration away from staff and onto power gs.
Fire Weaver is definitely the big winner if these notes go through. It's two biggest competitors both suffered serious nerfs and it saw none. If it doesn't have claim to being the best build for 1v1s before, it probably does after these changes.
Condition thief will be strong but the patch does shave it's damage a bit. While sword 2+ dodge combo isn't fixed and the way it gets a lot of it's condition damage is unhealthy in general, steal going down from an 8k poison bomb down to a 4k actually feels merciful.
Holosmith remains the best build for ranked. I think with Holosmith there is just so much fundamentally power crept about Holo and engineer, it that you can make a clear argument for nerfing. Forge Auto damage, Forge Auto range, Holo leap cooldown, heat therapy, Vent Exhaust heat reduction nerf, add self revealed on Prime Light Beam, Toss Elixir S duration cut down to 2s, Healing Turret, Purity of Purpose base duration nerf, anti corrosion playing ICD, on top of Elixir U and Kinetic Battery.
That's how much is out of line on Holosmith and you can do probably 75% of those changes all at once and that would take Holosmith down from being the best ranked build down to just good. Thats how ridiculously the two most popular Holosmith builds are.
And the nerfs they propose just miss completely miss the mark. Holosmith will still be the best build for ranked if you push them onto Gadgeteer and Rocket Boots. Holosmith will still be the best build for ranked if you push them off Elixir U into another defensive Utility and onto the Adrenal Implant trait. Holosmith cared less about agility sigil than other builds to the point where a lot of rifle holos didn't even use that sigil.
You look at the Mirage 50% Chaos Vortex Nerf and the Warrior tactics Nerfs and the Nerfs to Rampage? Those are real nerfs that are going to have serious ramifications on Spellbreaker and Condi Mirage capabilities going forward.
The only change you're going to see for Holosmith you've pushed them from 2 components of the build onto two other options that are almost just as good and might lose them 1 game out of 20 that they would have won pre-nerf. Or you push them more into Prot Holo.
I really do have to wonder how many winning MAT teams, and God's of PvP either have to win the title on said build or swap to that build for Arenanet to actually do something substantive to it. It's cliche to say, but it really does feel like there's someone on the balance who feels like Holosmith is their baby, that the player base pointing out it's the best ranked carry build by far, that it's great in ATs too, he just doesn't believe them. He thinks "Holo is fine L2P" and that's why Holo has gone an entire year without an actual serious nerf the way you see other classes get nerfed.
Condi Weaver will go up. Condi Daredevil will weather the minor nerfs. Maybe drop Spider Venom at the most extreme.
Warriors of all types will noticably drop pretty hard. Condition Mirage will largely migrate to Power and a small minority might drop staff for axe. Nothing else is going to change.
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> @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > > > > I know there’s a call for what should be nerfs to engineer(Holosmith). But this has bugged me for awhile and would like to know if anyone agrees. Should immobilized still take effect during elixir S. To me this has seemed very inconsistent with how elixir S works post changes and I want to know if anyone at all agrees or not.
> > > >
> > > > doesnt it work the same way mesmers disort? if you disort when immobed you are still immobed and cant move.
> > >
> > > **Mesmer distort is a dodge that can also remove immobilize when traited for.** While elixir s makes you immune to incoming effects including condis. So why become immune to everything except an immobilize that was already there. I don’t think even warding does anything to S so why should immobilize...
> >
> > Huh?
> >
> > If you're talking about Auspicious Anguish it only converts damaging conditions on Distort, not Immobilize.
>
> I’m talking about how elusive mind removes condis on dodge. Though after I checked it I noticed it just “removes 1 condition” unlike dash on thief that removes “movement impairment”
Elusive Mind doesn't impact Distortion.
Ahhh the days when Elusive Mind was still worth using.
![](https://i.imgur.com/ThQn2nu_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium"")
-
I actually kind of love Fresh Air Weaver.
Like throughout all of GW2 top end Elementalist builds have been stuff like DD Cele ele, support tempest, water and Weaver and now Condi fire Weaver.
Elementalist design has just never ever excelled at delivering the class fantasy of the mage who obliterates his enemies by raining down high damage balls of fire and lightning. It's a sword and sorcery PvP rpg and we don't really have the sorcery in PvP.
So Fresh Air ele is a build I'd actually really want to see buffed and incentivized. But the build does have some problematic aspects to it that should be hammered out, namely the instant cast damage on Lightning Strike and Electric Discharge should be changed. I'd personally like to see them become time bomb type attacks that you can see coming and react.
But in the scheme of things those problem aspects are small potatoes compared to the nerfs other classes need, and overall I think the build needs serious buffs.
-
> @"Fueki.4753" said:
> In comparison to condition damage and condition application rate, condi cleansing is way too weak.
> if Anet refuses to MASSIVELY reduce BOTH the application rate AND the damage, condition cleanse and conversion needs to be buffed.
>
> Condition cleansing already is rather useless, as the conditions are on you again within very few seconds.
> Adding Resistance to condi cleanse might be a good first step to balance conditions.
> Having an already existing stats reduce condition damage like toughness does with direct damage would be good as well.
Every professIon can already build to be functionally nearly unkillable to condition damage if they really want to be.
Whereas even builds tanky enough to completely break the meta like post rework Scrapper could eventually be spiked with power damage.
Like most people can poke you from range for 1k damage or more. A mesmer pokes you for 700 damage with a staff auto and people like you get bent out shape because it comes in the form of condition damage.
No matter how much cleanse your build has, defeating or out sustaining a condition build should require consistently avoiding their highest value attacks, and cleanses should only give you an extra out or two similar to how Elixir S or Endure Pain can give you a breather from power damage but fundamentally doesn't make you functionally unkillable to power damage.
-
> @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:
> > > I know there’s a call for what should be nerfs to engineer(Holosmith). But this has bugged me for awhile and would like to know if anyone agrees. Should immobilized still take effect during elixir S. To me this has seemed very inconsistent with how elixir S works post changes and I want to know if anyone at all agrees or not.
> >
> > doesnt it work the same way mesmers disort? if you disort when immobed you are still immobed and cant move.
>
> **Mesmer distort is a dodge that can also remove immobilize when traited for.** While elixir s makes you immune to incoming effects including condis. So why become immune to everything except an immobilize that was already there. I don’t think even warding does anything to S so why should immobilize...
Huh?
If you're talking about Auspicious Anguish it only converts damaging conditions on Distort, not Immobilize.
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Umm...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suuuure... if you insist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. [Phantasmal Duelist](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. [Maul](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. [Rapid Fire](
) TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. [Hundred Blades](
) TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bonus!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. [staff Ambush](
) TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range, **usable while moving.**
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep reaching lmao.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > keep whining mate, keep whining.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the kitten.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst kitten to fit my agenda.
> > > > > > > > > > > > You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.
> > > > > > > > > > > > All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.
> > > > > > > > > > > > gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.
> > > > > > > > > > > > this is you, biased. as always.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Mate, that ranger was on a full glass cannon build. Not to mention a 6k auto attack would only take around half of the Light Golem's health off meanwhile Phantasmal Duelist killed it in a single cast.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Lmfao those videos cut or biased? I literally just hopped on wanderers/demo and used the skills on meta builds and didn't stack any additional modifiers the builds wouldn't normally run.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The difference between daredevil staff 3 and ranger gs autos is that the daredevil can be nearly untouchable for a VERY long time while the ranger autos actually require you to hit your target twice before the evade triggers so there is way more counterplay for the latter.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Don't know what set up you were using but I tried replicating it with the most popular wander/deadshot condition mirage.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Light Golem has 17,193 health so 62% of that in one attack ends up being 10,662 damage over about 7 seconds. With about 1.2k of that being from the power portion of the attack.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You're also definitely running a lot more power. On Deadshot/Wanderer the duelist does 1k-1.5k on the power portion of the attack and you're getting 2-3 three times that from the power portion.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I even ran a goofy variant using Krait runes and an Agony sigil to bump my bleeding duration up to 100% and even with a pretty yolo combo like that while I was getting really close but it still wasn't one shotting.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I tried a few options and I found Grieving amulet, with Krait Runes and Agony Sigil and Signet of Midnight will get occasional one shots while the phantasm does 3k+ in physical damage when you get lucky with crits.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I also gave rapid fire the same test with fury on my sic em soulbeast and this is what I got.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Are you seriously comparing condi mirage to lb soulbeast using zephyr+scholar runes?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8031_uhtIM..this is a power variant, at one point winning 1vs2...and these are not practice golems
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We're discussing what level of damage from a single skill is reasonable, so yeah similar DPS skills with similar realistic stat set ups are relevant. Quickening Zephyr doesn't increase the overall damage of the Rapid Fire, it just makes the cast complete faster. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it as though it's boosting the damage beyond what's normal. I used it to give my soulbeast fury since in Shadowpass's test he specifically set it up so that Phantasmal Duelist had fury. This wasn't even using pet stacks or sic em. Just the pure vanilla stats from gear and traits. A core ranger can get the same damage results.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The question is 10.5k damage on a 20 second cooldown that involves a 2 second channel and 7 seconds of bleed after said channel too much damage compared other damage dealer skills?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There's so much counter play to this skill that other skills that do similar damage have noticeably less than. First you can prevent the phantasm from spawning entirely through environmental Line of Sight as well as using invulnerabilities like Elixir S, Obsidian Flesh, Renewed Focus. Second the bleeding doesn't just apply to you instantly. The mesmer has an animation which signifies the Phantasm will be spawning, it's the three bullets that fly in a weird arc. This doesn't do much damage but it signifies the attack is about to happen. Second the Phantasm casts it's unload, this itself is a 2 second channel as far as I can tell. So even if you get hit by the first packet of damage because they got the drop on you you can still react and avoid 87.5% of the entire skill's damage and all it's bleeds. So let's say you eat the entire skill and now you have 9k damage in bleed on you. You can cleanse it and get rid of all of it. And if you can't avoid it, if you can't cleanse it, it's possible to heal through it whereas getting hit with a 10k Crit from a power class isn't going to give you that luxury.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is it strong? Yeah, Duelist is very strong and impactful can and often is the skill that wins the fight. Is he super over powered? I think in light of the cooldown, the actual clear audio and visual tell on the attack, and the multitude of ways and opportunities to survive the skill both before it lands it's damage and even afterwards makes me feel the overall level of damage is justified.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your idea of counterplay is what would work basically against anything
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah. Because it's basically like any other attack. It's not like we're dealing with pre-nerf Death's Judgement that's also unblockable and thus can't be blocked or nullified by projectile reflection and destruction. It's just any other DPS attack just with a slightly unusual delivery method and it's damage values aren't out of the ordinary.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ...like blow out high CD defenses for a second of respite, your answer
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Never said you needed to blow high cooldown defenses. I simply stated that if you eat the full attack, which gives plenty of warning to avoid, by it's nature as a condition damage attack you also have methods to entirely retroactively mitigate the damage should a mistake like that happen and verses attacks that do all their damage immediately you do not get that opportunity. You get hit by an 8k Arcing Slice? If you're below 8k health you don't get to heal that off or use a cooldown to retroactively nullify that damage before it's all applied.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your wording is also kind of hard to parse here. It sounds like you're saying you should be able to avoid 100% of damage without needing to expend any resources like cooldowns what so ever.
> > > > >
> > > > > Simply in GW1 there was a limit on degen from condis at -8 arrows for sec so no matter how many condis the enemy would stuck on you...you still would lose -8 arrows for seconds and that's why the gameplay was smarter , easy to follow from the outside and overall more enjoyable ; same concept goes for CC..you could not CC an already CCed target **which makes bloody sense** while in GW2 you can daze and already dazed target , asking to remove this brainless gameplay is not exactly a request for 100% dmg inmmunity.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Okay. What should the hard limit be on how long a condition damage build needs to spend attacking in order to kill a stationary target that doesn't fight or cast skills? What is your proposed hard limit on their damage per second?
> > >
> > > They could limit the number of damaging and not damaging conditions applicable on a single enemy at time, a limit that stays till the expiration or removal of such condition : Ex - you apply burning-bleed-confusion on Bob like 12 stacks each for 20s, for 20s no other damaging condition can be applied on BoB unless he removes one or two of those condis and in which case 1 or 2 new condis can be applied on Bob, if he doesn't clear than the attacker can renew the same condis before the time expires or simply wait it out and reapply same or different conditions. While doing that limit the number of non damaging condis to 1-2; right now you can load Bob with all condis with absolutely nothing he can do because many skills applying condis in this game also have CC/daze/stun.
> > >
> > > Roughly the same concept used in GW1, you apply burning dealin -8 arrows, you could not apply another -8 arrows condi while burning was still active....**after doing that you can take a look at condi removal** so that we move away from condi bunkers doing burst
> >
> > I never played guild wars 1. -8 arrows means nothing to me.
>
> There you go https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Health_degeneration
That sort of system is probably unwise because between dodge rolls, blocks, evades, true invulnerability, every class being able to spec for a wealth of condition cleanses, everyone's capacity to avoid damage entirely in GW2 is leagues beyond what it is in GW1.
-
> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > > > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> > > >
> > > > **General**
> > > >
> > > > * Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel
> > >
> > > ^ Not sure if that is a wise idea _right now._ A lot of the balance that we actually do have, is because of this single sigil. This very important single sigil, is what allows certain attacks from certain classes to be viable at all. If this sigil is removed, it will greatly effect the performance of certain build archetypes that utilize slower attacks during bursts, due to the sigil of agility. Some of these attacks that have honed in the balance structures of certain builds, have done so only due to the sigil of agility. I suggest maybe lowering the quickness uptime from 2s to 1s or something like that. But I believe that removing it entirely at this point, may cause more problems than it would solve. It's going to be a situation where, if it is removed, certain build archetypes will still survive because their animation times are juuuust fast enough to remain viable and practical, but certain other build archetypes which were already utilizing slower animation frames, will become too slow to be practical. When that happens, it is likely that the meta will flip flop all over the place again, and builds that were once balanced due to sigil of agility will become unviable, and builds like Holosmith that never needed it to begin with, will prosper in its absence, despite the incoming nerfs to Holo quick uptime.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > **Condi Thief**
> > > >
> > > > * Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
> > > > * Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only
> > >
> > > ^ I believe the nerf to Spider Venom will effect Condi DrD much more than most people are realizing right now. This nerf should be adequate.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > **Holosmith**
> > > >
> > > > * Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
> > > > * Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only
> > >
> > > ^ It's going to need more nerfing than that. This spec's overperformance is currently disgusting. You certainly should nerf the quickness on U as well. But it seriously needs to lose the sustain from Heat Therapy and Forge needs to be put on a 9s CD just like everything else in the game has. If you don't go deep on this one, it's going to keep driving off player base as people are REALLY getting tired of dealing with a class that is both easy & powerful for new users to use AND has a high skill ceiling for veteran players. It's too much.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > **Condi Mirage**
> > > >
> > > > * Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
> > > > * Phantasmal Warlock:
> > > > + Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
> > > > + Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
> > > > * Chaos Vortex:
> > > > + Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
> > > > + Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
> > > > + Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only
> > >
> > > ^ I believe this all very unnecessary. The only thing it needs, is a shift on some of its damage from clone ambush, onto shatter play. This way the Mirage has to be offensive to deal the same level of damage, rather than be allowed to 100% defense while spamming clone ambush damage.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > **Rampage**
> > > >
> > > > * Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
> > > > + Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
> > > > + Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
> > > > + Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only
> > >
> > > ^ Oh that'll definitely be a strong nerf, maybe a bit too strong.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > **Warrior’s Cunning**
> > > >
> > > > * Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.
> > >
> > > ^ Hrm, I think it would be more reasonable to go maybe: above 90% health is 10% damage, and then when opponent has barrier is 25% damage. Not sure it needs that big of a nerf.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > **Staff Thief**
> > > >
> > > > * Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only
> > > > * Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only
> > > > * Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only
> > >
> > > ^ The Staff Thieves out there would give better feedback than me, but I think it's mostly important that the animation exploits are fixed.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You mean that **sigil of agility** has removed counterplay from many skills whose big dmg was justified by their slow animation/cast time...in that regard the removal of the sigil is simply a **brilliant idea**
> >
> > P.S Holosmith is tolerable right now and not really that OP compared to the status quo, the reduction in quickness rather than sustain nerf at this point is again a brilliant idea , holosmith is a bruiser and to keep up with the current trends in power dmg/PvE and WvW..their sustain is justified, with the reduction of the dmg and less access to quickness...they become tolerable
>
> No, that's not what I meant at all. What I meant was exactly what I said.
>
> Holosmith is in no way tolerable, as indicated by 99.9% of the community feedback. You are actually the first person I've seen say anything at all to defend it or attempt to water down opinions of its clear overperformance. In fact, I think that "Holosmith being grossly overpowered in its current state" is the first thing I've seen everyone in this forum actually agree on, to the point that Holosmith mains don't even argue against that opinion, but rather show up in-thread and agree with everyone, while honestly trying to help better the flow of suggestions on how to fix it. So we can INB4 this "Holosmith isn't that strong" thing you got going on here.
>
> Also, I was actually the first person to suggest quickness nerfs to Holosmith as a suggestion to bring down its overall DPS factor, as well as its capability to abuse water field blasting/leaping. It was posted in a thread several months ago, which ended up becoming a popular opinion. But what I'm telling you now, is that these quickness nerfs to Holosmith won't be enough to effect its performance vs. other classes/builds if Sigil Of Agility is removed along with the direct Holosmith nerfs. The removal of Sigil Of Agility and the nerfs to Holo Quickness will nerf the Quickness uptime of a Holosmith, but he'll still have quite frequent Quickness application nonetheless. However, the removal of Sigil Of Agility will actually remove MOST if not ALL of the Quickness application for other classes/builds. This will result in an effect where the Holosmith will remain just as proportionately powerful in the next meta, as he is now in this meta. If Sigil Of Agility were to be kept upon this next patch, then the Quickness nerfs to Holo would be adequate to bring Holosmith down to the level of other specs.
>
> Note that I never vouched for or against Sigil Of Agility. I said that: "It might not be a good idea to remove it right now" as in, wait for a better patch to release the removal of the sigil. Cal had already stated that this next patch was going to be sort of a "fit in the quick stuff that is easy to do" kind of thing. Removing the Sigil Of Agility is not going to be a "Quick Fix" kind of thing. It's going to come with significant disproportionate changes & shifts to the existing balance that we have now. It is not going to lower the power creep in equalized balanced ways amongst every class. I believe it would be a better idea to wait for a larger and more organized patch to remove the sigil, one that will be able to compensate for the lopsided varying differences in balance effects that it will make vs. every class individually. IE: Removing Sigil Of Agility isn't a big loss in Quickness uptime for a Holosmith, but it is the only Quickness uptime that a Core Guardian has for his burst at all.
>
> If you still aren't able to "See" what I'm trying to explain here, I'll just say that: You should be careful what you wish for.
I'm personally happy Sigil of Agility is going away. It was reaching absurd levels of usage rates. Most builds in the game were using it to snap out one animation or another. Rangers, Soulbeasts, Core Guardians, Support Firebrands, Reapers, Scourge, Core Necromancers, Power GS Mesmers, Spellbreakers, Core Warriors, Heralds, Holosmith, Deadeyes, Holosmiths.
The only really good builds that weren't using it were Condition Thief, Fire Weaver, and Condition Mirage.
I think it had gotten to the point of "If everyone is using it then let's have no one use it and force everyone to decide on other options" levels of usage the way Surging Runes and Earth Runes had recently before.
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Umm...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suuuure... if you insist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. [Phantasmal Duelist](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. [Maul](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. [Rapid Fire](
) TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. [Hundred Blades](
) TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bonus!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. [staff Ambush](
) TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range, **usable while moving.**
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep reaching lmao.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > > you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.
> > > > > > > > > > > > toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.
> > > > > > > > > > > > keep whining mate, keep whining.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the kitten.
> > > > > > > > > > Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst kitten to fit my agenda.
> > > > > > > > > > You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.
> > > > > > > > > > GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.
> > > > > > > > > > people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.
> > > > > > > > > > All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.
> > > > > > > > > > gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.
> > > > > > > > > > this is you, biased. as always.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mate, that ranger was on a full glass cannon build. Not to mention a 6k auto attack would only take around half of the Light Golem's health off meanwhile Phantasmal Duelist killed it in a single cast.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Lmfao those videos cut or biased? I literally just hopped on wanderers/demo and used the skills on meta builds and didn't stack any additional modifiers the builds wouldn't normally run.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The difference between daredevil staff 3 and ranger gs autos is that the daredevil can be nearly untouchable for a VERY long time while the ranger autos actually require you to hit your target twice before the evade triggers so there is way more counterplay for the latter.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Don't know what set up you were using but I tried replicating it with the most popular wander/deadshot condition mirage.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Light Golem has 17,193 health so 62% of that in one attack ends up being 10,662 damage over about 7 seconds. With about 1.2k of that being from the power portion of the attack.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You're also definitely running a lot more power. On Deadshot/Wanderer the duelist does 1k-1.5k on the power portion of the attack and you're getting 2-3 three times that from the power portion.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I even ran a goofy variant using Krait runes and an Agony sigil to bump my bleeding duration up to 100% and even with a pretty yolo combo like that while I was getting really close but it still wasn't one shotting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I tried a few options and I found Grieving amulet, with Krait Runes and Agony Sigil and Signet of Midnight will get occasional one shots while the phantasm does 3k+ in physical damage when you get lucky with crits.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I also gave rapid fire the same test with fury on my sic em soulbeast and this is what I got.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Are you seriously comparing condi mirage to lb soulbeast using zephyr+scholar runes?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8031_uhtIM..this is a power variant, at one point winning 1vs2...and these are not practice golems
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We're discussing what level of damage from a single skill is reasonable, so yeah similar DPS skills with similar realistic stat set ups are relevant. Quickening Zephyr doesn't increase the overall damage of the Rapid Fire, it just makes the cast complete faster. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it as though it's boosting the damage beyond what's normal. I used it to give my soulbeast fury since in Shadowpass's test he specifically set it up so that Phantasmal Duelist had fury. This wasn't even using pet stacks or sic em. Just the pure vanilla stats from gear and traits. A core ranger can get the same damage results.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The question is 10.5k damage on a 20 second cooldown that involves a 2 second channel and 7 seconds of bleed after said channel too much damage compared other damage dealer skills?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There's so much counter play to this skill that other skills that do similar damage have noticeably less than. First you can prevent the phantasm from spawning entirely through environmental Line of Sight as well as using invulnerabilities like Elixir S, Obsidian Flesh, Renewed Focus. Second the bleeding doesn't just apply to you instantly. The mesmer has an animation which signifies the Phantasm will be spawning, it's the three bullets that fly in a weird arc. This doesn't do much damage but it signifies the attack is about to happen. Second the Phantasm casts it's unload, this itself is a 2 second channel as far as I can tell. So even if you get hit by the first packet of damage because they got the drop on you you can still react and avoid 87.5% of the entire skill's damage and all it's bleeds. So let's say you eat the entire skill and now you have 9k damage in bleed on you. You can cleanse it and get rid of all of it. And if you can't avoid it, if you can't cleanse it, it's possible to heal through it whereas getting hit with a 10k Crit from a power class isn't going to give you that luxury.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it strong? Yeah, Duelist is very strong and impactful can and often is the skill that wins the fight. Is he super over powered? I think in light of the cooldown, the actual clear audio and visual tell on the attack, and the multitude of ways and opportunities to survive the skill both before it lands it's damage and even afterwards makes me feel the overall level of damage is justified.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your idea of counterplay is what would work basically against anything
> > > >
> > > > Yeah. Because it's basically like any other attack. It's not like we're dealing with pre-nerf Death's Judgement that's also unblockable and thus can't be blocked or nullified by projectile reflection and destruction. It's just any other DPS attack just with a slightly unusual delivery method and it's damage values aren't out of the ordinary.
> > > >
> > > > > ...like blow out high CD defenses for a second of respite, your answer
> > > >
> > > > Never said you needed to blow high cooldown defenses. I simply stated that if you eat the full attack, which gives plenty of warning to avoid, by it's nature as a condition damage attack you also have methods to entirely retroactively mitigate the damage should a mistake like that happen and verses attacks that do all their damage immediately you do not get that opportunity. You get hit by an 8k Arcing Slice? If you're below 8k health you don't get to heal that off or use a cooldown to retroactively nullify that damage before it's all applied.
> > > >
> > > > Your wording is also kind of hard to parse here. It sounds like you're saying you should be able to avoid 100% of damage without needing to expend any resources like cooldowns what so ever.
> > >
> > > Simply in GW1 there was a limit on degen from condis at -8 arrows for sec so no matter how many condis the enemy would stuck on you...you still would lose -8 arrows for seconds and that's why the gameplay was smarter , easy to follow from the outside and overall more enjoyable ; same concept goes for CC..you could not CC an already CCed target **which makes bloody sense** while in GW2 you can daze and already dazed target , asking to remove this brainless gameplay is not exactly a request for 100% dmg inmmunity.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Okay. What should the hard limit be on how long a condition damage build needs to spend attacking in order to kill a stationary target that doesn't fight or cast skills? What is your proposed hard limit on their damage per second?
>
> They could limit the number of damaging and not damaging conditions applicable on a single enemy at time, a limit that stays till the expiration or removal of such condition : Ex - you apply burning-bleed-confusion on Bob like 12 stacks each for 20s, for 20s no other damaging condition can be applied on BoB unless he removes one or two of those condis and in which case 1 or 2 new condis can be applied on Bob, if he doesn't clear than the attacker can renew the same condis before the time expires or simply wait it out and reapply same or different conditions. While doing that limit the number of non damaging condis to 1-2; right now you can load Bob with all condis with absolutely nothing he can do because many skills applying condis in this game also have CC/daze/stun.
>
> Roughly the same concept used in GW1, you apply burning dealin -8 arrows, you could not apply another -8 arrows condi while burning was still active....**after doing that you can take a look at condi removal** so that we move away from condi bunkers doing burst
I never played guild wars 1. -8 arrows means nothing to me.
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Umm...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suuuure... if you insist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. [Phantasmal Duelist](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. [Maul](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. [Rapid Fire](
) TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. [Hundred Blades](
) TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bonus!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. [staff Ambush](
) TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > > > 6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range, **usable while moving.**
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Keep reaching lmao.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.
> > > > > > > > > > you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.
> > > > > > > > > > toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.
> > > > > > > > > > keep whining mate, keep whining.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the kitten.
> > > > > > > > Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst kitten to fit my agenda.
> > > > > > > > You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.
> > > > > > > > GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.
> > > > > > > > people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.
> > > > > > > > All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.
> > > > > > > > gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.
> > > > > > > > this is you, biased. as always.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mate, that ranger was on a full glass cannon build. Not to mention a 6k auto attack would only take around half of the Light Golem's health off meanwhile Phantasmal Duelist killed it in a single cast.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Lmfao those videos cut or biased? I literally just hopped on wanderers/demo and used the skills on meta builds and didn't stack any additional modifiers the builds wouldn't normally run.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The difference between daredevil staff 3 and ranger gs autos is that the daredevil can be nearly untouchable for a VERY long time while the ranger autos actually require you to hit your target twice before the evade triggers so there is way more counterplay for the latter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't know what set up you were using but I tried replicating it with the most popular wander/deadshot condition mirage.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Light Golem has 17,193 health so 62% of that in one attack ends up being 10,662 damage over about 7 seconds. With about 1.2k of that being from the power portion of the attack.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You're also definitely running a lot more power. On Deadshot/Wanderer the duelist does 1k-1.5k on the power portion of the attack and you're getting 2-3 three times that from the power portion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I even ran a goofy variant using Krait runes and an Agony sigil to bump my bleeding duration up to 100% and even with a pretty yolo combo like that while I was getting really close but it still wasn't one shotting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I tried a few options and I found Grieving amulet, with Krait Runes and Agony Sigil and Signet of Midnight will get occasional one shots while the phantasm does 3k+ in physical damage when you get lucky with crits.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also gave rapid fire the same test with fury on my sic em soulbeast and this is what I got.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Are you seriously comparing condi mirage to lb soulbeast using zephyr+scholar runes?
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8031_uhtIM..this is a power variant, at one point winning 1vs2...and these are not practice golems
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > We're discussing what level of damage from a single skill is reasonable, so yeah similar DPS skills with similar realistic stat set ups are relevant. Quickening Zephyr doesn't increase the overall damage of the Rapid Fire, it just makes the cast complete faster. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it as though it's boosting the damage beyond what's normal. I used it to give my soulbeast fury since in Shadowpass's test he specifically set it up so that Phantasmal Duelist had fury. This wasn't even using pet stacks or sic em. Just the pure vanilla stats from gear and traits. A core ranger can get the same damage results.
> > > >
> > > > The question is 10.5k damage on a 20 second cooldown that involves a 2 second channel and 7 seconds of bleed after said channel too much damage compared other damage dealer skills?
> > > >
> > > > There's so much counter play to this skill that other skills that do similar damage have noticeably less than. First you can prevent the phantasm from spawning entirely through environmental Line of Sight as well as using invulnerabilities like Elixir S, Obsidian Flesh, Renewed Focus. Second the bleeding doesn't just apply to you instantly. The mesmer has an animation which signifies the Phantasm will be spawning, it's the three bullets that fly in a weird arc. This doesn't do much damage but it signifies the attack is about to happen. Second the Phantasm casts it's unload, this itself is a 2 second channel as far as I can tell. So even if you get hit by the first packet of damage because they got the drop on you you can still react and avoid 87.5% of the entire skill's damage and all it's bleeds. So let's say you eat the entire skill and now you have 9k damage in bleed on you. You can cleanse it and get rid of all of it. And if you can't avoid it, if you can't cleanse it, it's possible to heal through it whereas getting hit with a 10k Crit from a power class isn't going to give you that luxury.
> > > >
> > > > Is it strong? Yeah, Duelist is very strong and impactful can and often is the skill that wins the fight. Is he super over powered? I think in light of the cooldown, the actual clear audio and visual tell on the attack, and the multitude of ways and opportunities to survive the skill both before it lands it's damage and even afterwards makes me feel the overall level of damage is justified.
> > >
> > > Your idea of counterplay is what would work basically against anything
> >
> > Yeah. Because it's basically like any other attack. It's not like we're dealing with pre-nerf Death's Judgement that's also unblockable and thus can't be blocked or nullified by projectile reflection and destruction. It's just any other DPS attack just with a slightly unusual delivery method and it's damage values aren't out of the ordinary.
> >
> > > ...like blow out high CD defenses for a second of respite, your answer
> >
> > Never said you needed to blow high cooldown defenses. I simply stated that if you eat the full attack, which gives plenty of warning to avoid, by it's nature as a condition damage attack you also have methods to entirely retroactively mitigate the damage should a mistake like that happen and verses attacks that do all their damage immediately you do not get that opportunity. You get hit by an 8k Arcing Slice? If you're below 8k health you don't get to heal that off or use a cooldown to retroactively nullify that damage before it's all applied.
> >
> > Your wording is also kind of hard to parse here. It sounds like you're saying you should be able to avoid 100% of damage without needing to expend any resources like cooldowns what so ever.
>
> Simply in GW1 there was a limit on degen from condis at -8 arrows for sec so no matter how many condis the enemy would stuck on you...you still would lose -8 arrows for seconds and that's why the gameplay was smarter , easy to follow from the outside and overall more enjoyable ; same concept goes for CC..you could not CC an already CCed target **which makes bloody sense** while in GW2 you can daze and already dazed target , asking to remove this brainless gameplay is not exactly a request for 100% dmg inmmunity.
>
>
>
>
Okay. What should the hard limit be on how long a condition damage build needs to spend attacking in order to kill a stationary target that doesn't fight or cast skills? What is your proposed hard limit on their damage per second?
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Umm...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Suuuure... if you insist.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. [Phantasmal Duelist](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. [Maul](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. [Rapid Fire](
) TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. [Hundred Blades](
) TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bonus!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. [staff Ambush](
) TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > > > here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )
> > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > 6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )
> > > > > > > > > > 2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range, **usable while moving.**
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Keep reaching lmao.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.
> > > > > > > > you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.
> > > > > > > > toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.
> > > > > > > > keep whining mate, keep whining.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the kitten.
> > > > > > Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst kitten to fit my agenda.
> > > > > > You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.
> > > > > > GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.
> > > > > > people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.
> > > > > > All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.
> > > > > > gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.
> > > > > > this is you, biased. as always.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mate, that ranger was on a full glass cannon build. Not to mention a 6k auto attack would only take around half of the Light Golem's health off meanwhile Phantasmal Duelist killed it in a single cast.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lmfao those videos cut or biased? I literally just hopped on wanderers/demo and used the skills on meta builds and didn't stack any additional modifiers the builds wouldn't normally run.
> > > > >
> > > > > The difference between daredevil staff 3 and ranger gs autos is that the daredevil can be nearly untouchable for a VERY long time while the ranger autos actually require you to hit your target twice before the evade triggers so there is way more counterplay for the latter.
> > > >
> > > > Don't know what set up you were using but I tried replicating it with the most popular wander/deadshot condition mirage.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > Light Golem has 17,193 health so 62% of that in one attack ends up being 10,662 damage over about 7 seconds. With about 1.2k of that being from the power portion of the attack.
> > > >
> > > > You're also definitely running a lot more power. On Deadshot/Wanderer the duelist does 1k-1.5k on the power portion of the attack and you're getting 2-3 three times that from the power portion.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > I even ran a goofy variant using Krait runes and an Agony sigil to bump my bleeding duration up to 100% and even with a pretty yolo combo like that while I was getting really close but it still wasn't one shotting.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > I tried a few options and I found Grieving amulet, with Krait Runes and Agony Sigil and Signet of Midnight will get occasional one shots while the phantasm does 3k+ in physical damage when you get lucky with crits.
> > > >
> > > > I also gave rapid fire the same test with fury on my sic em soulbeast and this is what I got.
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > > Are you seriously comparing condi mirage to lb soulbeast using zephyr+scholar runes?
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8031_uhtIM..this is a power variant, at one point winning 1vs2...and these are not practice golems
> > >
> > >
> >
> > We're discussing what level of damage from a single skill is reasonable, so yeah similar DPS skills with similar realistic stat set ups are relevant. Quickening Zephyr doesn't increase the overall damage of the Rapid Fire, it just makes the cast complete faster. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it as though it's boosting the damage beyond what's normal. I used it to give my soulbeast fury since in Shadowpass's test he specifically set it up so that Phantasmal Duelist had fury. This wasn't even using pet stacks or sic em. Just the pure vanilla stats from gear and traits. A core ranger can get the same damage results.
> >
> > The question is 10.5k damage on a 20 second cooldown that involves a 2 second channel and 7 seconds of bleed after said channel too much damage compared other damage dealer skills?
> >
> > There's so much counter play to this skill that other skills that do similar damage have noticeably less than. First you can prevent the phantasm from spawning entirely through environmental Line of Sight as well as using invulnerabilities like Elixir S, Obsidian Flesh, Renewed Focus. Second the bleeding doesn't just apply to you instantly. The mesmer has an animation which signifies the Phantasm will be spawning, it's the three bullets that fly in a weird arc. This doesn't do much damage but it signifies the attack is about to happen. Second the Phantasm casts it's unload, this itself is a 2 second channel as far as I can tell. So even if you get hit by the first packet of damage because they got the drop on you you can still react and avoid 87.5% of the entire skill's damage and all it's bleeds. So let's say you eat the entire skill and now you have 9k damage in bleed on you. You can cleanse it and get rid of all of it. And if you can't avoid it, if you can't cleanse it, it's possible to heal through it whereas getting hit with a 10k Crit from a power class isn't going to give you that luxury.
> >
> > Is it strong? Yeah, Duelist is very strong and impactful can and often is the skill that wins the fight. Is he super over powered? I think in light of the cooldown, the actual clear audio and visual tell on the attack, and the multitude of ways and opportunities to survive the skill both before it lands it's damage and even afterwards makes me feel the overall level of damage is justified.
>
> Your idea of counterplay is what would work basically against anything
Yeah. Because it's basically like any other attack. It's not like we're dealing with pre-nerf Death's Judgement that's also unblockable and thus can't be blocked or nullified by projectile reflection and destruction. It's just any other DPS attack just with a slightly unusual delivery method and it's damage values aren't out of the ordinary.
> ...like blow out high CD defenses for a second of respite, your answer
Never said you needed to blow high cooldown defenses. I simply stated that if you eat the full attack, which gives plenty of warning to avoid, by it's nature as a condition damage attack you also have methods to entirely retroactively mitigate the damage should a mistake like that happen and verses attacks that do all their damage immediately you do not get that opportunity. You get hit by an 8k Arcing Slice? If you're below 8k health you don't get to heal that off or use a cooldown to retroactively nullify that damage before it's all applied.
Your wording is also kind of hard to parse here. It sounds like you're saying you should be able to avoid 100% of damage without needing to expend any resources like cooldowns what so ever.
-
> @"Ruufio.1496" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > I'm still really shocked how lightly Holosmith got away with being nerfed.
> >
> > It's generally agreed up on that it is one of if not THE best build for ranked right now. You guys are able to admit that Holosmith is a problem in the game right now balance wise.
> >
> > And I don't think most people really find the damage that offensive. Yeah it's high but it can be survived with active mitigation and kiting. They can be counter pressured.
> >
> > What I and most other people find really offensive about Holosmith is that it's ability to almost instantly fully resustain after taking extreme levels of damage is way, way, way too high and their ability to safely disengage with Holo Leap and Toss Elixir S is also way too high as well.
> >
> > So like toning down the quickness and the stability is okay and all but those are really, really just completely missing the source of the problem. You can already reliably survive a photon forge burst if you're careful. You can already find gaps in their defenses and pressure to damage them in return. It's not Holosmith's damage, it's that it has way too much sustain for something as deadly as a holosmith.
>
> The invuln from Elixir S is fine nowadays since the trait was nerfed and it's like mistform where you can't do anything but I can agree to a nerf to the stealth that comes with the invuln. Toss Elixir S should honestly be a 60s cooldown (but with 240 radius instead of 180). Stealth is incredibly strong. Incredibly strong abilities should have a longer cooldown and/or some function that makes the user vulnerable.
Toss Elixir S should be 2 second duration, 2.4 second traited. Max.
-
The Chaos Vortex nerfs are okay if they were just clone only. I knew it was only so long for this skill to be an outlier in terms of Infinite Horizon and having clones do the full condition power of the real mirage's ambush.
But we're looking at a skill that's a costs a dodge roll, has a lengthy cast time that can only be 50% covered with Mirage Cloak, is a projectile and doesn't home and thus you need to either set up your shot so that they're unlikely to be able to maneuver or stun them into it because otherwise you can just circle strafe it. For all of that plus taking 12 seconds for the condition damage to fully role out, 4,000 damage in total Chaos Vortex from the main mesmer is more than fair I think. There are two main problems and neither is Chaos Vortex from the Mirage themselves.
First is that the clones don't have the 50% reduced duration you see on the scepter ambushes. So if the Mirage and all four clones hit you're looking at 14,500 condition damage from one skill that can be fired pretty rapidly. Now if clones had similar reduced damage like with Scepter and Axe clones, the passivity you see people complain about would be a loss less of an issue. Trying to chase down a mirage and getting pot shot from off sceen because a clone lobbed a 3.6k pot shot at you is pretty unpleasant.
The second is that clones from Deceptive Evasion spawn automatically doing their ambush attack, which is the biggest offender in terms of passive gameplay. It just gives too much value onto the dodge roll all in one go whether you're actively trying to attack or not. Infinite Horizon is in theory a damage bonus for maintaining a lot of illusions when you proc Mirage Cloak. So every dodge roll is throwing some kind of damage out at your opponent, rather than ones that meet certain conditions with at least some level of preparation and that's a problem.
-
100% disagree. I've gotten most of the achievements except Merchandise Collector and 500 Crazed Fans.
I love how a lot of the map's unique rewards are tied to certain events and were actually relevant to said event. The way you unlock the cooking recipes for completing the achievement with the Chef, the Shooting Gallery Achievements, the derby achievement. It was a lot of fun going into a zone and actually having some decently paced goals for a change. It's probably why it's the first time since LSW3 I've gotten the meta reward from actual PvE and not just the PvP reward track and why I feel like I got a lot more content and replayability out of Grothmar Valley than most of the LWS4 maps.
-
The Chaos Vortex nerfs are okay if they were just clone only. I knew it was only so long for this skill to be an outlier in terms of Infinite Horizon and having clones do the full condition power of the real mirage's ambush.
But we're looking at a skill that's a costs a dodge roll, has a lengthy cast time that can only be 50% covered with Mirage Cloak, is a projectile and doesn't home and thus you need to either set up your shot so that they're unlikely to be able to maneuver or stun them into it because otherwise you can just circle strafe it. For all of that plus taking 12 seconds for the condition damage to fully role out, 4,000 damage in total Chaos Vortex from the main mesmer is more than fair I think. There are two main problems and neither is Chaos Vortex from the Mirage themselves.
First is that the clones don't have the 50% reduced duration you see on the scepter ambushes. So if the Mirage and all four clones hit you're looking at 14,500 condition damage from one skill that can be fired pretty rapidly. Now if clones had similar reduced damage like with Scepter and Axe clones, the passivity you see people complain about would be a loss less of an issue. Trying to chase down a mirage and getting pot shot from off sceen because a clone lobbed a 3.6k pot shot at you is pretty unpleasant.
The second is that clones from Deceptive Evasion spawn automatically doing their ambush attack. It just gives too much value onto the dodge roll all in one go. Infinite Horizon is in theory a damage bonus for maintaining a lot of illusions when you proc Mirage Cloak. So every dodge roll is throwing some kind of damage out at your opponent, rather than ones that meet certain conditions.
> @"Levetty.1279" said:
> > @"DarthEros.3547" said:
> > Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @"Cal Cohen.3527" has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.
>
> Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.
Last time around the preview went through multiple iterations. Off the top of my head they wanted to increase the cooldown on Illusion of Life to 90 seconds and halve the duration of Illusion of Life. After the initial patch they settled on keeping the cooldown and duration in tact, but removing the 3 seconds of pure mercy invulnerability that the targets receive when first reviving.
-
I'm still really shocked how lightly Holosmith got away with being nerfed.
It's generally agreed up on that it is one of if not THE best build for ranked right now. You guys are able to admit that Holosmith is a problem in the game right now balance wise.
And I don't think most people really find the damage that offensive. Yeah it's high but it can be survived with active mitigation and kiting. They can be counter pressured.
What I and most other people find really offensive about Holosmith is that it's ability to almost instantly fully resustain after taking extreme levels of damage is way, way, way too high and their ability to safely disengage with Holo Leap and Toss Elixir S is also way too high as well.
So like toning down the quickness and the stability is okay and all but those are really, really just completely missing the source of the problem. You can already reliably survive a photon forge burst if you're careful. You can already find gaps in their defenses and pressure to damage them in return. It's not Holosmith's damage, it's that it has way too much sustain for something as deadly as a holosmith.
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Umm...
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?
> > > > > > > > > > > > those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Suuuure... if you insist.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1. [Phantasmal Duelist](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)> > > > > > > > > > > 2. [Maul](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > 3. [Rapid Fire](
) TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds> > > > > > > > > > > 4. [Hundred Blades](
) TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bonus!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 5. [staff Ambush](
) TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.
> > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > > > here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.
> > > > > > > > > > how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )
> > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > 6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )
> > > > > > > > 2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range, **usable while moving.**
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Keep reaching lmao.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.
> > > > > > you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.
> > > > > > toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.
> > > > > > keep whining mate, keep whining.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.
> > > > >
> > > > > LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:
> > > >
> > > > Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the kitten.
> > > > Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst kitten to fit my agenda.
> > > > You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.
> > > > GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.
> > > > people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.
> > > > All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.
> > > >
> > > > like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.
> > > > gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.
> > > > this is you, biased. as always.
> > >
> > > Mate, that ranger was on a full glass cannon build. Not to mention a 6k auto attack would only take around half of the Light Golem's health off meanwhile Phantasmal Duelist killed it in a single cast.
> > >
> > > Lmfao those videos cut or biased? I literally just hopped on wanderers/demo and used the skills on meta builds and didn't stack any additional modifiers the builds wouldn't normally run.
> > >
> > > The difference between daredevil staff 3 and ranger gs autos is that the daredevil can be nearly untouchable for a VERY long time while the ranger autos actually require you to hit your target twice before the evade triggers so there is way more counterplay for the latter.
> >
> > Don't know what set up you were using but I tried replicating it with the most popular wander/deadshot condition mirage.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Light Golem has 17,193 health so 62% of that in one attack ends up being 10,662 damage over about 7 seconds. With about 1.2k of that being from the power portion of the attack.
> >
> > You're also definitely running a lot more power. On Deadshot/Wanderer the duelist does 1k-1.5k on the power portion of the attack and you're getting 2-3 three times that from the power portion.
> >
> > 
> >
> > I even ran a goofy variant using Krait runes and an Agony sigil to bump my bleeding duration up to 100% and even with a pretty yolo combo like that while I was getting really close but it still wasn't one shotting.
> >
> > 
> >
> > I tried a few options and I found Grieving amulet, with Krait Runes and Agony Sigil and Signet of Midnight will get occasional one shots while the phantasm does 3k+ in physical damage when you get lucky with crits.
> >
> > I also gave rapid fire the same test with fury on my sic em soulbeast and this is what I got.
> >
> > 
> >
>
> Are you seriously comparing condi mirage to lb soulbeast using zephyr+scholar runes?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8031_uhtIM..this is a power variant, at one point winning 1vs2...and these are not practice golems
>
>
We're discussing what level of damage from a single skill is reasonable, so yeah similar DPS skills with similar realistic stat set ups are relevant. Quickening Zephyr doesn't increase the overall damage of the Rapid Fire, it just makes the cast complete faster. I'm not sure why you're mentioning it as though it's boosting the damage beyond what's normal. I used it to give my soulbeast fury since in Shadowpass's test he specifically set it up so that Phantasmal Duelist had fury. This wasn't even using pet stacks or sic em. Just the pure vanilla stats from gear and traits. A core ranger can get the same damage results.
The question is 10.5k damage on a 20 second cooldown that involves a 2 second channel and 7 seconds of bleed after said channel too much damage compared other damage dealer skills?
There's so much counter play to this skill that other skills that do similar damage have noticeably less than. First you can prevent the phantasm from spawning entirely through environmental Line of Sight as well as using invulnerabilities like Elixir S, Obsidian Flesh, Renewed Focus. Second the bleeding doesn't just apply to you instantly. The mesmer has an animation which signifies the Phantasm will be spawning, it's the three bullets that fly in a weird arc. This doesn't do much damage but it signifies the attack is about to happen. Second the Phantasm casts it's unload, this itself is a 2 second channel as far as I can tell. So even if you get hit by the first packet of damage because they got the drop on you you can still react and avoid 87.5% of the entire skill's damage and all it's bleeds. So let's say you eat the entire skill and now you have 9k damage in bleed on you. You can cleanse it and get rid of all of it. And if you can't avoid it, if you can't cleanse it, it's possible to heal through it whereas getting hit with a 10k Crit from a power class isn't going to give you that luxury.
Is it strong? Yeah, Duelist is very strong and impactful can and often is the skill that wins the fight. Is he super over powered? I think in light of the cooldown, the actual clear audio and visual tell on the attack, and the multitude of ways and opportunities to survive the skill both before it lands it's damage and even afterwards makes me feel the overall level of damage is justified.
-
> @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > Umm...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sharper Images and Duelist's Disclipline on mesmer need to get looked at too. Pistol 4 can apply 18 stacks of bleeding on a 20 second cooldown and can almost be instantly reset with interrupts from stuff like sword ambush spam.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Please don't forget about these 2 traits. 18 stacks of bleeding on a single button press is CRAZY overpowered.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > now that cmirage is nerfed to kitten you wanna nerf core condi mes i see?
> > > > > > > > > > those "18" bleeds deal same damage as other hard hitting skills of other classes, prove me wrong or go home.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Suuuure... if you insist.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1. [Phantasmal Duelist](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 7 seconds (not even the full 18 bleeds lel)> > > > > > > > > 2. [Maul](
) TTK on Light Golem w/ Fury = 33 seconds> > > > > > > > > 3. [Rapid Fire](
) TTK on Light Golem = 31 seconds> > > > > > > > > 4. [Hundred Blades](
) TTK on Light Golem = 18 seconds/26 seconds> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bonus!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 5. [staff Ambush](
) TTK on Light Golem = 5 seconds (can be spammed or just passively does stupid amounts of damage every time a mirage dodges)> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Not to mention the other 4 skills in the sc/p weaponset also do a ton of damage, 1 ccs you, + multiple ambushes to dodge. Compare the 7-8 skills necessary to avoid on sc/p to the 1 skill on ranger gs that can kill you (maul) and the 3 on warrior gs (maul, whirlwind, arcing slice) etc. etc. and it should be pretty easy to see why mesmers are completely overloaded.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > if you gonna post biased stuff I shall too.
> > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > > > here you go. 6,3k ranger autoattack.
> > > > > > > > how many of them can you throw at 1,5k range with quickness? 10 in that 7s? that would deal 63k dmg. :D
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sure and I can make the Phantasmal Duelist do way more burst damage as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Someone is just salty they've gotten proven wrong yet again lmao.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dont have to mate, did it for you ( or rather some random oponent did )
> > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54
> > > > > > 6350 dmg, long range shot. basic longbow auto with 1500+ range. (usable while moving )
> > > > > > 2242 dmg, rapid fire ( 1 hit ) it fires 10 over all so thats total of 22420 dmg. again 1500+ range, **usable while moving.**
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so you die in what, 1,5s? 2s? from 1500 range. and you compare it to 8s bleed + pistol channel, that will do about 10k dmg if not cleansed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah sure you'd die in 1.5/2s from 1500 range if you have a 12k health pool and no boons or toughness meanwhile I'm over here casting Phantasmal Duelist one shotting everyone while remaining completely stationary!
> > > > >
> > > > > Keep reaching lmao.
> > > >
> > > > If you eat entire pistol 4 channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesnt happen becouse everyone just cleanses that INSANE 18 BLEEDS OP.
> > > > you dont get to cleanse 22,4k rapid fire from 1500+ range. even if you eat 3-4 shots thats still 6-8k dmg.
> > > > toughtness? protection? sure lets add prot and toughtness, oh wait still about 10-14kdmg. thats STILL more then p4.
> > > > keep whining mate, keep whining.
> > >
> > > If you eat the entire rapid fire channel you deserve to die, sadly it doesn't happen (except to you judging by the screenshots) because everyone just walks behind a wall!
> > >
> > > I'm sorry to tell you that toughness and protection don't reduce condition damage! Pistol 4 will still kill a light armored class just as fast regardless of whether they're on paladins or marauders.
> > >
> > > LMAO you're the one whining. "Mesmer is so weak literally nothing does damage because you can dodge it D: does no damage can't survive you can't nerf anything about this class because you can only nerf mesmer if a team wins MAT for 2 years in a row with 5 mesmer comp" blah blah blah like come on I'll prove you wrong again later but clearly pistol 4 does more damage than all of these other hard hitting skills. You're just in denial constantly about anything mesmer related yet have the audacity to call other people biased. :joy:
> >
> > Mate, I just posted a screenshot of rangers autoattack dealing almost as much damage as entire pistol 4 channel, cut the kitten.
> > Unlike you I dont go around forums creating post, putting biased, cut out of contecst kitten to fit my agenda.
> > You even go out of your way to outright lie to get mesmer nerfed.
> > GJ they will nerf staff, mirage will still be cancer, people will still whine, YOU will still whine. nothing changes other then the fact that staff becomes unplayable.
> > people will move on to scept/torch + axe/pistol or some sort of bunkercondi mesmer. GJ you did it, 1 less build clap clap.
> > All I do is come here to poke fun at people that go out of their way to bend the truth, so it can fit their agenda.
> >
> > like what, staff 3 thief abuse baaaad needs to go.
> > gs1 ranger evade abuse goooood bring back.
> > this is you, biased. as always.
>
> Mate, that ranger was on a full glass cannon build. Not to mention a 6k auto attack would only take around half of the Light Golem's health off meanwhile Phantasmal Duelist killed it in a single cast.
>
> Lmfao those videos cut or biased? I literally just hopped on wanderers/demo and used the skills on meta builds and didn't stack any additional modifiers the builds wouldn't normally run.
>
> The difference between daredevil staff 3 and ranger gs autos is that the daredevil can be nearly untouchable for a VERY long time while the ranger autos actually require you to hit your target twice before the evade triggers so there is way more counterplay for the latter.
Don't know what set up you were using but I tried replicating it with the most popular wander/deadshot condition mirage.
Light Golem has 17,193 health so 62% of that in one attack ends up being 10,662 damage over about 7 seconds. With about 1.2k of that being from the power portion of the attack.
You're also definitely running a lot more power. On Deadshot/Wanderer the duelist does 1k-1.5k on the power portion of the attack and you're getting 2-3 three times that from the power portion.
I even ran a goofy variant using Krait runes and an Agony sigil to bump my bleeding duration up to 100% and even with a pretty yolo combo like that while I was getting really close but it still wasn't one shotting.
I tried a few options and I found Grieving amulet, with Krait Runes and Agony Sigil and Signet of Midnight will get occasional one shots while the phantasm does 3k+ in physical damage when you get lucky with crits.
I also gave rapid fire the same test with fury on my sic em soulbeast and this is what I got.
-
> @"bravan.3876" said:
> > @"Mandatory.6590" said:
> > Ih is not touched. staff is nerfed
> >
> >
>
> IH is not the issue, the passivity comes only from the wrong designed condi ambushes. On power weapons, mainly sword it is an active and skillful mechanic provides mindgames and counters from both sides in a fight, including the clone dodge preventing them form getting instant killled and makes the Mesmer able to counter classes skills/ traits normally can utilize clones vs the Mesmer, during the opponent can try to bait dodges from the Mirage with clones.
>
> The problem is, that condi ambushes are too much about pure dmg application and not about utilities you can use active to outplay ppl (interrupts with clones on sword for example) or to prepare burst combos (might/vulnerability stacks). Also the condi dmg from clone ambushes is way too high (even the dmg from normal clone autoattacks is too high, me not using condi remove on purpose got killed by nomal scepter autoattack from 1-2 clones from an afk Mesmer not dodging a single time before his Signet of Illusion even created the last clone, i mean kitten... don't ask me why he used that Signet, i have no clue but it made this funny experiemt possible), means it is enough when the Mesmer just dodges passively and kite and let clones do all the work with ambushes and normal autoattacks. No Power clone ambush or normal autoattack does even near that dmg when you compare.
>
> Another point was the way higher clone generation from condi weapons due to the changes that scepter and staff create one more clone than pre Hot. Means you could not bait a Condimesmer to dodge to keep clones alive because he could too easily create new ones. Good that these changes get reverted finally.
> All Anet needs to do to balance Condimesmer now is reworking the condi ambush skills into something more active and utility based in general, or nerf their dmg remarkable. In both cases the dmg loss from clones need to get compensated by adding more active ways of condi application by shatters again. Just not as overloaded as with the old Ineptitude and blind on all shatters spam style.
>
> Nerfing Mesmers own staff skills is also not rly good, i agree and doesn't solve the problem of the passive condi applications from clones. It will just make Mesmers maybe unplayable or at least make Mesmers relying even more on the passsive playstyle then before.
The biggest part of the problem is that a vast majority of the players look at what is effecitvely a 1k ranged poke with Mesmer Staff 1, but because 90% of that 1k damage is through conditions they cry about how there are "ENDLESS CONDITIONS" when fighting Mirage. While Holosmith frequently crits for 1.5k,potentially 2k damage with it's immediately acting faster traveling Rifle 1 with nary a peep. As those only power builds are allowed infinite auto attacks. And I have genuinely heard that suggested.
Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> Hi again,
>
> First off, really enjoying reading through all the feedback. While we don’t have time to respond to each individual post, we wanted to respond to a few of the points that have been brought up multiple times.
>
> * Sigil of Agility and its impact on other builds
>
> This is something that we were still thinking about at the time of the original post, and went with the most aggressive variation as a discussion topic. For now we’re going to leave Agility in the game at reduced effectiveness (1s quickness) in order to have less impact on builds that we aren’t specifically targeting for this update. 1 second will still allow for a key skill to be used under quickness, while reducing the overall value for things like holo. Long-term we are still planning to remove Agility completely, as it’s too freely accessible as a source of quickness. This does fit more with the current state of things, but quickness is something we’ll be taking a close look at for the future update and it’s very likely that Agility is out of place moving forward.
>
> * Not enough holo nerfs
>
> Especially with the lesser nerf to agility, we agree that holo needs a bit more in this update. We’re looking at additional defensive reductions. Holo damage is certainly high, but we want to mostly leave that damage potential in the short-term, while adding more opportunity to counterpressure as a way of mitigating that damage. The new changes are included at the end of the post.
>
> * What about doing [any number of other suggestions]?
>
> There are more changes that make sense to do. There are concerns about some builds that aren’t being hit. There are questions about whether these changes are the right changes.
>
> These changes are all very focused on fixing problems in the short-term. Ideally we wouldn’t splash into other builds, but in some cases it’s bound to happen. We wanted to create a small set of high-impact changes to improve things while we work toward bigger goals. The alternative was to just not do any balance until the future update is ready, but we felt that we could address some problems so we’re going to take the opportunity. If other big problems appear following this update, we still have the ability to make small adjustments outside of the usual balance cadence as needed.
>
> Updates to the previous list:
> * Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
> * Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
> * Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only
>
> We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.
>
I feel validated.