mortrialus.3062

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> 1) Shadow Meld is ridiculous. I'd rather something that directly helps with combat. Countering a counter has rarely been a good idea, and on top of that the skill is just flat out stealth. It's another utility skill that gives stealth. Thief feels....weird. It's possible to do without stealth, but you have to crutch on other things. Without those things (like rifle/rifle DE), you have to use stealth way more than any other build - and you die horribly if you don't. Admittedly you die horribly to any spvp team that knows what they're doing anyway, but....y'know. Someone elsewhere mentioned making it like Basilisk venom - 2 charges, each hit strips # of boons or something. Also can Silent Scope apply to all weapons. Rifle has the easiest time landing stealth attacks - life as a dagger-pistol DE is....hard. Tbh I think that trait should be baseline.

I think Shadow Meld would make more sense as like the thief equivalent of mist form. The thief literally becomes a pool of shadow, becomes invulnerable, and traverses across the ground at extreme speeds. But this type of ultimate is more or less redundant after they turned Daggerstorm into a full on evade rather than a reflect.

Right now it's this weird thing where it counters reveal which is the counter to stealth so it's a counter to a counter that's already kind of rare and sparsely available but it's outclassed by daggerstorm anyway.

Something kind of like this.


> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > > Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

> > > > >

> > > > > But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Some you call out here, but there would have to be *massive* reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

> > > > >

> > > > > What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

> > > >

> > > > those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

> > >

> > > Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

> > >

> > > Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

> > >

> > > Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

> > >

> > > _"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"_

> >

> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > > Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.

> > > > >

> > > > > But If we include blocks and other direct damage mitigation/denial skills, along with endurance regen (and ini regen for thief) and passive traits; Mirage has less than every medium armor class, less than ele, and less survivability than war. In any case that isn’t direct access to on demand cooldowns; then it’s loses out on access over time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Some you call out here, but there would have to be *massive* reductions to everything else before Mirage would “have to much”. You could remove thief’s flat endurance regen, then delete ranger swords and dagger, and they’d still have more than Mirage.

> > > > >

> > > > > What would you honestly get rid of at this point? Reduce distortion so each clone gave half a second of invulnerability?

> > > >

> > > > those are people that see mirage 3clone disort, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA INVULN.

> > >

> > > Hah, yeah, I mean..... can you imagine? Describing a 3 second immunity on a long cooldown and requiring long casts/setup as "permanent" or "spammable", when in reality it has only 5% up-time.

> > >

> > > Seriously, that's almost as crazy as a mesmer-main describing FB projectile-reflects as spammable.

> > >

> > > Nobody would be as silly as that. ;)

> > >

> > > _"those are people that see ToC dome, but they keep throwing abilities at them while internally screaming PERMA REFLECT"_

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chapter_3:_Valiant_Bulwark

> >

> > 5s duration, 8s cooldown

> >

> > and shield has 4s uptime on 24s cd.

> >

> > seems spammable to me.

>

> ....... Tied to ToC on 75s CD. Nobody sits in ToC doing nothing, so its effectively 75s CD. If they do, then that's a win for you.

>

> Shield isn't a reflect.

???

If you watch good firebrands play they absolutely will stop casting pages to get the more high value pages as they're needed.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Scoobaniec.9561" said:

> > Huh? Is there a list of upcoming changes?

>

> Basically, Grimjack Weaver meta is going to occur middle of this season when next patch is dropped. If you see that kid on a node, don't 1v1 him, just walk away. Weaver is going to be obtusely dominant at sode node play, very very soon.

Yeah with 50% nerfed Chaos Vortex I don't see how a Mirage is ever going to be able to duel them 1v1 anymore when competent weavers are already your hardest match up.

@"Cal Cohen.3527"

Any new iterations on the balance patch week?

> @"crimsonvapor.1937" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > @"crimsonvapor.1937" said:

> > > I agree that certain builds of Holosmiths are overpowered right now, but I think there could have been a better approach other than nerfing Heat Therapy?

> > > I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable. Metabattle lists 3 holosmith builds with 4+ rating. All 3 of which uses the GM major trait Thermal Release Valve.

> > >

> > > Won't nerfing Heat Therapy, which is a minor trait, hurt build diversity? I have not seen Photonic Blasting Module used in sPvP (for obvious reasons) and after this nerf I seriously doubt it will see any use. The Protection Holo build which uses sword/shield doesn't even use the ECSU trait, which is kind of ironic since sword is the only weapon Engi has that benefits from heat levels. I thought they would have made a change to Thermal Release Valve instead.

> > >

> > > What do you Engis think? I know this is based on the assumption that Metabattle's ratings are reliable, so if there's a better site to find current PvP meta builds, please let me know.

> >

> > Heat Therapy affects every holo build, not just those with Thermal Release Valve.

>

> Yes, I understand that.

>

> I'm just asking if builds that don't use Thermal Release Valve are also considered "OP". Since I don't see any rated highly on Metabattle, I was wondering if anyone knows if any build that doesn't use Thermal Release Valve feels OP. If not, this change might be nerfing more than it should.

Photonic Blasting Module is a complete nonstarter in PvP. Maybe it could be workable if it cancelled all damage instead of just the initial damage. Even then it'd be completely outclassed by the other two options.

Enhanced Storage Capacity Unit is perfectly workable but outclassed in both Photon Forge uptime, as well as minimizing how much you need to actually manage and care about heat given how much heat you lose organically dodging plus Engineer's more or less permanent vigor uptime.

> @"crimsonvapor.1937" said:

> I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable.

Lolno.

The community has a very skewed perception of balance. And what builds are even allowed to show up to be rated by the community for the conquest section is curated by one guy who no one actually knows who he is in game or how good at PvP he even is.

Right now among good players Holosmith is widely regarded as easily one of if not the best build for ranked.

And in ATs right now the most dominant team composition is currently Firebrand/Firebrand/Holosmith/Herald/X with X being either a second Holo or Herald.

The only Mount type we have room for is an underwater mount. A new expansion needs an entirely new mastery focus.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > > @"witcher.3197" said:

> > > Yes that's why we're seeing deadeyes everywhere.. oh wait, we aren't.

> >

> > Maybe you can tell us the counterplay for stealth camping rifle champ with shadow arts....'cause I know the counterplay to condi thieves, they can't kill much outside gold division I dare to think

>

> Reveal

>

> The problem is that Deadeye builds are #$%^ing useless against anything that has reveal, but are too strong against things that do not have reveal. So it either gets hard countered, or does the hard countering. There is no in between point.

>

> I've written a lot about this concept in many previous threads. This is a bad type of design that needs some work toward fixing. Classes/Builds should be able to handle each other in combat reasonably. It's ok to have some advantages over a particular build or to have some disadvantages in some situations, but it's kind of not awesome when the rock/paper/scissors effect grows too strong. Then the game feels less about skill and out playing, and more about just trying to jump people when you're on something that counters them hard.

Really Deadeye has numerous flaws in it's design. First by virtue of having both the best range on top what is already the most mobile class Deadeye should by default have the lowest stealth up time out of any thief build Specialization. Starting off with Snipers Kneel giving stealth, to stealth on dodge, even the elite Shadowmeld. It's all a mistake. Deadeye should revolve around minimal stealth and be forced to focus on good positioning to stay safe.

Next is that in terms of damage Deadeye should kind of just okay. The original iteration where they had to build up malice to execute players was smart design that needed some ironing out. Again Malice building up over time instead of through action was a problem, doubly so when they can permanently stealth until it gets Max stacks, again the problem of permanently stealth on something that deserves probably about as much stealth as a ranger.

Deadeye should feel like playing an Exodia deck from Yu-Gi-Oh in that you're basically playing a completely different game from depleting Life Points and doing damage.

Right now everything that could have gone wrong designing an RPG sniper class has gone wrong. It has abusive levels of stealth uptime, on top of the best range and mobility. On top of that it has one of the nastiest stealth bursts in the game, with Be Quick or Be Killed, Binding Shadows, and Three Round Burst it can drop 20k damage in under 2 seconds, with 0 tell on the Immobilize and knock down. And similar problem to CI Mirage back in it's day you better hope your stunbreak is also a cleanse because even if you stunbreak the knockdown you're Immobilized and taking damage, and if your cleanse has a cast time you're fucked.

Overall I have nothing positive to say about the way Deadeye is currently designed. The only saving grace about it is that only about 2 people EU and NA can play it above a Plat 1 level.

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> So now SA de is op? Lmao im dying

I haven't seen it in action but a few PvPers have mentioned on stream a permastealth SA deadeye that can consistently one shot from stealth thanks to the SA venoms trait and the lifesteal on stealth attack minor well beyond what Deadeye has traditionally been able to do. It doesn't even run trickery.

> @"Happy Yes.1453" said:

> > @"Falan.1839" said:

> > It didn't improve, let's put it like that.

>

> didn't improve? a year ago there were a ton of streamers and hundreds of viewers every day, now there are no mATs anymore, hell population is so low there isn't even 1 player in legendary tier on the leaderboard. An expansion should have come out by now, but there is nothing, they have destroyed their own game

Think about it like this? When does Arenanet ever promote the game mode? When is the last time you were watching YouTube and you saw an ad saying something like "PROVE YOURSELF! DOMINANTE THE COMPETITION! THE BATTLE BEGINS TONIGHT! SEASON 19 PLAY FOR FREE!"

I mean heck think about how long it takes a normal player picking up the game to actually find out there IS a PvP game mode they might enjoy, with leaderboards and tournaments and in game rewards they might want? Probably like 100 hours past level 80 when they're getting really into fashion wars.

How long do you think it takes that player to learn PvP basics like how stunbreaks, stability, and condition cleanses are actually a must unlike PvE? What about conquest mechanics like there is no point to double calling a node? Seriously how long does it take without a decent conquest tutoring?

With World of Warcraft, especially WoW Classic, if you join a PvP server odds are you will either gank or get ganked at around level 20 when you push into contested territory. You spend the rest of your leveling experience always aware that PvP can happen whether you are ready or not. And it makes you want to get back when you do see enemy players. And that leads you to battlegrounds and the ladder to Grand Marshall and High Warlord.

PvP gets absolutely no promotion, and the game segregating the three main modes SO COMPLETELY means players aren't organically lead into PvP from PvE.

So yeah, the population is in steady decline.

> @"Radagascar.6231" said:

> The fact that Firebrand is not on here at all is INCREDIBLY worrying. You have Staff Thief listed, yet FB is not being looked at? Please don't be so out of touch with what is actually incredibly obnoxious and overpowered to play against. Look. At. Firebrand.

I'm pretty scared of Firebrand, pretty much all variants, and Fire Weaver next patch based on these notes.

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > > > > > > > > brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.

> > > > > > > > > Which good players ?

> > > > > > > > > Who are currently the goods players ?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.

> > > > > > > he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.

> > > > > > > Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.

> > > > >

> > > > > Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.

> > > >

> > > > You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!

> > > > Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.

> > > > You: 

> > > >

> > >

> > > Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.

> >

> > new players have this odd misconceptions of what bad is.

> > i could play power mirage, never EVER attack my oponents, just run around decaping, and get 35% winrate in the rank im currently in.

> > I will give you league of legends as an example, champions with 47-48% winrate are considered trash, and the ones with 52+ are S tier or godlike.

> > If you nerf something by 50% it becomes trash, if i can manage 52% winrate with cmirage, after nerfing every single ability by 50%, making cmirage utter garbage, I would still propably have about 45-48% winrate.

>

> This is not league of legends. Where a bot can maintain 50% win loss ratio, the class is spammable and broken. Same was the case with scourge a long while back where you could button mash to victory. Condi mirage is broken and it needs nerfs. That's all I'm saying.

The literal point of glicko as a matchmaking system is to place everyone at the rating where they will maintain a 50% win loss ratio. Eventually any bot is going to land at a 50% win ratio if it plays enough games.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > @"BadMed.3846" said:

> > > > brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.

> > > Which good players ?

> > > Who are currently the goods players ?

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

>

> he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.

> he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.

> Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.

The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.

I thought we wanted conditions that ramp when you land successive attacks rather than being able to land a wide variety of them all at once?

> @"Flandre.2870" said:

> Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGE

> which is Infinite Horizon.

> If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.

> But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.

> This is also why they've gutted portal.

The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.

2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.

3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.

4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

Calculating with realistic stats

Infinite Horizon will turn the Scepter ambush from a 2,000 damage attack into a 4,000 damage attack at 3 clones. On Axe Infinite Horizon will turn a 4,000 damage attack into a 6,800 damage attack at three clones. That's not exactly breaking the bank for maintaining 3 clones.

Infinite Horizon will turn Chaos Vortex from 4,000 damage attack into a 16,000 damage attack with 3 clones.

The problem is Chaos Vortex as an outlier in terms of clone damage and Infinite Horizon's interaction with Deceptive Evasion turning all dodges into potential damage rather than making dodges extra rewarding if you've previously set up enough clones like shatters are.

I can see the potential for Rune of Swiftness to be a problem in future metas because no one likes builds that can effectively stack literally minutes worth of Super Speed level swiftness but we aren't there right now and only a couple of builds have been using this at all so I don't recommend it being removed yet like I do with Sigil of Agility.

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > > I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.

> > > > I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.

> > > > Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.

> > > > I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

> > > >

> > >

> > > I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

> >

> > It needs to be unblockable because of how the mechanics for spawning the clone are. Other clone sources don't require hitting but because of spaghetti code Mirror Blade does. If Mirror Blade was changed to spawn a clone as soon as the throw attack becomes airborne then it can go down to being unblockable.

>

> Clone spam is too high as is. Being able to block the attack thus reducing damage, cripple, and might/extra clone for the caster should be a valid counter play to this skill. It should be blockable.

Clone spam is only too high on Staff, Scepter, and Deceptive Evasion. And most of that is being directly nerfed. Spawning clones should not be preventable. Stopping shatters through killing clones or avoiding the shatter should be.

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

> >

> > Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.

> > I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.

> > Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.

> > I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

> >

>

> I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

It needs to be unblockable because of how the mechanics for spawning the clone are. Other clone sources don't require hitting but because of spaghetti code Mirror Blade does. If Mirror Blade was changed to spawn a clone as soon as the throw attack becomes airborne then it can go down to being unblockable.

> @"Faust.6183" said:

> I bought the game in August, and am interested mostly in playing endgame PVE content - fractals, dungeons and raids. However, I can't decide on a class, and it's been driving me mad. I got to level 19 with Ranger with the aim to play a Druid healer (since I love playing healers and support characters in other MMOs), and I know it's too early to judge, but I find it really, really boring. So, please, help me decide on a class to stick with and stop this vicious cycle of creating and deleting characters. My current options are:

> - Druid Boon support healer - Does it get more fun? I don't know why, but the Ranger looks kind of boring. Is Druid gameplay more fun, and is the spirit mechanic gimicky or not?

> - Chrono Boon support tank - How hard is it for a noob? Is it still meta?

> - Firebrand Boon support healer (Mace+Shield/Staff) - Is it viable at all in raids, dungeons and fractals?

> - Tempest Power DPS (Scepter + Warhorn or Staff) - Is it viable?

> - Scourge Condi DPS - As above?

> - Scourge Healer - As above?

>

> Thank you in advance for answers!!

>

> EDIT: Please, no toxic answers. Also, no "whichever class you like best" answers. I'm pretty sure people in endgame PVE are like "these three meta classes or gtfo".

I 100% agree with Nike here guardian is 100% the way to go for new players. It's actually out of control in PvE now tbh.

But the real answer is to build your way up towards having geared alts for EVERY profession. Guardian or Mesmer or Warrior or Ranger will take you places. But being able to slot into every role can take you anywhere.

I was nowhere near as negative about build templates compared to the rest of the community. They needed some work but that was it mostly.

Then I tried swapping my legendary gear into an alt to do some map completion for a legendary weapon.

Wowzors what a headache it ended up as. My carefully crafted equipment templates gone, my inventory a mess, having to redo all the sigils and runes and infusions.

Templates really need manual save and reload so that you can just reload and snap your templates back into place when you want to do stuff like this.

> @"Nightcore.5621" said:

> Blizzard well be addin CC break bar to World Bosses in diablo4 same as we have. Did they stole the idea from this game ?

I thought the title was a reference to Marisa Stole the Precious Thing. Gave me a huge nostalgia bomb.

The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.

2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.

3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.

4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

> @"coro.3176" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> > > Hi again,

> > > Updates to the previous list:

> > > * Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second

> > > * Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only

> > > * Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

> > >

> > > We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

> > >

> >

> > I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

> >

> > For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:

> > * Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.

> > * Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.

> > * Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.

> > * Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.

> > * Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.

> > * Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.

> > * Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.

> > * Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.

> > * Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.

> > * Purity of Purpose: Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is _nuts_.

> > * Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.

> > * Lock On: Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.

> > * Overcharged Shot: Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

> >

> > Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up. Reducing the Heat Loss on Vent Exhaust will also make Photon Forge as a mechanic an actual mechanic that requires more attention to use.

> >

> > The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

>

> * Nerfing Healing Turret would hurt core engi too much.

> * Nerfing Elixir S would hurt core engi too much.

> * I somewhat agree with Overcharged Shot though. Animations are good - but take the precast animation time off the self-knockdown CC time to balance it out. The trade-off for OC-shot being instant is supposed to be the self-knockdown. Alternatively, make it so that stability doesn't prevent the self-CC.

>

> I get that no one even bothers to think about non-meta specs any more, but if this game is ever going to have build diversity again, these things have to be considered. Otherwise everything is just balanced around the OP-Elite-Spec-Du-Jour..

>

Core Engineer needs serious, serious kit reworks and some tweaks to pistol. That's no justification for certain extremely overtuned skills and traits.

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> Hi again,

> Updates to the previous list:

> * Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second

> * Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only

> * Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

>

> We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

>

I think just nerfing SIgil of Agility's quickness duration is a mistake as it'll still allow players to cheese out certain animations faster than opposing players can react. It deserved the full removal.

For additional Holosmith nerfs I think I'd like to see:

* Forge Auto Attack: Range reduced from 240 units to 170 units, higher than melee and at the same range as Reaper's Shroud. 240 has always been kind of nuts.

* Holo Leap: Cooldown increased to 5 seconds. Reduce the range of the attack to 170 units.

* Heat Therapy: Reduced healing per stack by 50% instead of 25%. I think it can use a bigger hit.

* Vent Exhaust: Reduced heat loss per dodge from 15% down to 5%.

* Prismatic Converter: Change it from Condition Conversion to just Cleanse.

* Crystal Configuration: Nerf the stacks to just 1 stack per attack regardless of targets hit. Getting Potentially 10 stacks of stability on a 6 second cooldown if you're in a team fight is just too much.

* Prime Light Beam: Add self-revealed onto the start of the cast so it can't be used from stealth.

* Toss Elixir S: Base duration reduced from 5 seconds down to 2 seconds.

* Healing Turret: Reduce the immediate healing and the healing of the overcharge by 25%.

* Purity of Purpose: Reduce the duration of certain converted boons. 14 seconds of Vigor, for example, on cleansing a bleed is _nuts_.

* Anti-Corrosion Plating: Add a 5 second internal cooldown.

* Lock On: Right now it's 2 traits in one. Please remove one of them, preferably Invisible Analysis and leave Controlled Analysis.

* Overcharged Shot: Add a precast animation similar to Warrior Longbow's Pin Down or Ranger's Point Blank Shot. Right now in melee range it's effectively instant cast and has no opportunity to predict it and with the stability from traited Corona Burst and Elixir U there's usually no negative counter balance to it applying to the engineer.

Overall this this will make Holosmith much more bearable, both the Tools Rifle variant and Protection Holo. They'll still have high damage and CC, but you'll have made Photon Forge have a significantly higher skill cap required to play by reducing the range and limiting how easy it is for Holosmith to completely reset the fight by trimming the resustain and the excessive stealth duration. Also trimming some of the unfairness like the excessively low cooldown on Holo Leap and the unfairness of Overcharged Shot. It'll still be great, it'll still be able to rush down opponents. But doing so has a higher skill level required and it's less forgiving if you screw up. Reducing the Heat Loss on Vent Exhaust will also make Photon Forge as a mechanic an actual mechanic that requires more attention to use.

The nerfs to Kinetic Battery and Elixir U are actually kind of not great? Like if you nerf Elixir U too much you'll just push them onto another stunbreak Utility that's almost as good like Thumper Turret or Spectrum Shield. And if you hit Kinetic Battery you'll push them onto Gadgeteer and Adrenal Implant and they'll be almost as good and still the best build for ranked. The nerfs I'm suggesting are ones they aren't going to easily escape from by taking a different utility or trait.

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I feel validated.

>

> Just wanna point out they precisely added holo-only nerfs, none of the Elixir S, Purity of Purpose, Anti-Corrosion Plating changes you suggested. They're the chances that Engi mains have been suggesting

>

I'm mostly joking about them acknowledging complaints that holo hasn't been nerfed enough. Which honestly feels out of this world to see.

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> And to be honest, all of the sustain traits and all of the sustain utilities on holosmith can be hard disabled and it probably won't be enough.

>

> You've descended into absurdity dude. Without holosmith sustain utilities and traits you have squishy core engi.

>

>

I suppose we'll never know

But at the end of the day if Scrapper makes core engineer more defensive and less offensive, it only stands to logic that holosmith should make core engineer less defensive and more offensive.

Like if you don't think with photon forge holosmith won't be able to make do with Healing Turret, Elixir S, Rocket Boots, or W/E utilities are _currently_ just under S tier you're kidding yourself.

But I just guess that makes too much sense.