Azure The Heartless.3261

ITT People who only read their patch notes and didn't look at the patch as a whole.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> the mighty blow nerf is just malicious. theres no logical reason for it to have a 10sec cd. stand your ground nerf is one of the dumbest nerfs in the patch considering its the # 1 important skill in wvw and has been carrying zergs since day 1.

_carrying since day one is no longer a baseline._

If it's useless after the initial patch it'll get fixed in one of the following ones.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> imo there should only be a weak auto attack and the self heal skill. remove rally from both wvw and pvp.

Nah. People are already complaining about how the reduction of damage is going to make the game boring. Lets not strip volatility because its volatile if we don't need to. Struggling in downstate is well built for the most part, as long as the damage also fits this design shift.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> With sigils being skipped and only rune durations taking a hit, I suspect a few condi classes or versions will make a return.

>

> Raw condi amulets pretty much went unscathed.

Which is fine. You either do high condi and can't crit, or you do high condi and crit but you are absolute glass. Players that want to use those condis that proc on crit arent going to have breathing room for flubs, in theory.

Some other players have mentioned this as well. It's worth a look.

Its worth a look. No reason to make downstate more volatile than it is.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> has the bar dropped so low that every class is not even expected to be really good?

We cant go by any arbitrary definition of 'really good' because it is always relative. The meta changes and classes become good or bad based on whichever class is the best/easiest/strongest/most versatile.

The only way we can approach the definition above is if every class can fight every other class to some extent without being a complete shutdown due to forces beyond the player's control. (mechanical disparity). Even if we get there, people won't agree that we have, so the only thing we should be focusing on is "If this class/spec main complains about class/spec x, is there a kit or playstyle the class/spec main can play that lets him challenge class/spec x and have some chance of winning?" If any matchup is a wash we haven't balanced.

You and I want the same thing, but everyone on these forums has a different idea of what every class being good is, and most of them involve having overwhelming mechanical advantage in the current meta for the class they play. S tiers by definition only arise because they are by nature better mechanically to play in more situations.

> I feel really old now, I feel like old man looking and young peoples lowered standars.

> im kitten 20 and you make me feel old.

> FeelsWeirdMan

Not low, just realistic~

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> If your class can be B+, be grateful.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> nah, every class should have S tier build.

> if they dont have it, developers failed. simple as that.

No to both of these.

There will always be low and high tier classes.

No class should be so low that it is mechanically -impossible- to create a build that cannot matchup a high tier class, however.

The largest you should let a class imbalance get is 60/40 in a particular classes favor. Exceptionally skilled low tiers should be able to beat average or inexperienced mid and high tiers, and at least put up a fight against players in their skill bracket. For those matchups of equal skill where your class is disadvantaged, that's what counterpicks/secondary characters of a different class that covers your weaknesses are for. Against people that are fresh off of metabattle pressing buttons, however, your weird necro build should work.

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> Just want to acknowledge your nice replies without derailing too much. Apologies if I sounded harsh. I just feel the dedicated Mes community has for the most part been pretty reasonable concerning balance.

Nah, I get it. And like I said, there have been and continue to be reasonable mesmers. Just, there's also unreasonable ones that are exploiting the design flaw and calling it fair pretty damn loudly. That group is who the vitriol is for.

>For reasons unknown, good suggestions have rarely been implemented, in favor of nerfing around the root issues, leaving traitlines in tatters, introducing clunky mechanics, and leaving but a few playable builds.

It's probably due to the above. The devs are aware some mechanics promote what they have themselves described as degenerate play, but for some reason they have an aversion to changing the specs a whole lot. It might be because they were preparing for this, it might not be; who knows.

>this proposed endurance nerf may be the final nail in the coffin for the class of casual 50%+ nerfs. That may be music to some peoples' ears, but I do hope I'm wrong.

I am hoping that as well, or that a less extreme solution that has similar effects on balancing the spec mechanically gets proposed (and taken into consideration) instead.

> @"Funkystuff.1563" said:

> guys do we have some information on the release date of the patch?

It's going to be after the season ends for PVP, so...mayyybe the 25th at the earliest?

>@"ZDragon.3046" said:

> **"just get good and learn to dodge ambush attacks"

> "we should be allowed to dodge while stunned. while our clones deal damage to you for landing your perfectly timed stun."**

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> I imagine there is some deliberate exaggeration here, but please direct me to any posts in the past year+ where Mirage mains said this. If anything, there have been ongoing discussions about the best way to reign in ambush damage and passive play, some of which I think you even partook in.

I'm not trying to start an intense back and forth about this ('cause I'm tired) but- He's not wrong Tempest. While there have been a sensible contingent of mesmer mains that recoiled in horror at dodging while CCed (yourself included), there have also been a sizeable group of mesmers pretending like that mechanic is fine. There's definitely hyperbole but keep in mind a lot of us recall these ad nauseum:

> @"Omitted" said:

> I don't think anyone is really struggling against a Mirage using Infinite Horizon in general anymore unless they're very new to the game. It's just Chaos Vortex really, and with this Anet should just reduce the clone condition output by 50% as they already have with sceptre and axe clones. Chaos Vortex is pretty easy to side-step and has a super obvious cast with a duration of 1 second - which is longer than the Mirage Cloak that must be expended in order to use the skill.

> @"Omitted" said:

> Well, I agree that the mesmer hate is quite (too) omnipresent, yes. :tongue: Which is a shame since it is my second favourite class. I mean - yes, there are still some issues, but overall I think condi mirage is quite balanced now. It used to be a lot worse, now it is kinda on par with other meta classes.

> They should focus on other points now.

> @"Omitted" said:

> you realize if a mirage dodges while he's cced that you're the one WINNING from the whole ordeal? because he can't use his stamina to attack you afterwards

> @"Omitted" said:

> The fact that you can Mirage Cloak while stunned is part of the unique mechanic. You still can't do anything but NOT be hit without the now (useless) Trait, so I see it as fine.

> @"Omitted" said:

> this whole "QQ MIRAGE CAN DODGE QQ" is so overblown and stupid and one-sided and ill-informed

> __ that's literally the concept of the class __

> @"Omitted" said:

> other classes can dodge while cced too, it's called break stuns

Speaking personally, there's definitely a grudge there. I like playing berserker and that matchup is __extremely__ harrowing for me whenever I play it. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a grudge. That being said, it's possible to have a grudge and not want retribution overpaid.

**While making sure the class doesn't get nerfed into oblivion is important (whether or not its an endurance cut),** There's a pretty large pool of quotes of mirage players (not necessarily mains, however) thinking everything was fine for a long, long time. Some of these aren't even all that old.

It's subject to change. I need to experience it before I can give an opinion here or there.

I approve of the **passion and direction**, though.

> @"CroTiger.7819" said:

> remove rally

Interesting concept, but keep in mind some builds cannot cleave effectively and some builds may not be suited for reviving without downing themselves. Rally mechanic allows both of those to be played without their effectiveness being cut significantly in a team fight.

The rally mechanic isn't keeping your normal and close teamfight scenario from happening, It's just making the chance you'll be spared a defeat more volatile. People with glass builds putting themselves in cleave distance is probably more to blame for that, and close teamfights can be due to the rally mechanic just as much as they are circumvented by it.

> @"CroTiger.7819" said:

>This mechanic kills diversity potential even more and make teamfight not fun even on winning side it feels lame and bad since you know you are carried just by commiting and completing the cleave first.

It does the opposite. Being rallied by/rallying people as a daredevil running uppercut on someone who just went down that opposing team is leaving because they think cleaving opponent is more important feels __amazing__, for example..

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > TLDR:

> > > 1. One Bar for Dodge Roll fundamentally alters how endurance is played with in a way that means endurance regeneration is only ever in a state where it is being wasted.

> > Maybe? more on that below.

> > > 2. With dodge rolls in a state where endurance regeneration is inherently wasted in some way, enemies fighting a mirage can both maintain a dodge for important skills and dodge minor skills while regenerating more dodge rolls.

> > Understood, but more on that below.

> > > 2. Trade offs are dumb, well designed elite specs never necessarily needed direct drawbacks.

> > Not on board with this. When they were designed to be core+, people were all over asking for core to be gutted to balance them, or lamenting how core was useless. Defined weakness is fine.

>

> Wanted to come back to this to add a few extra points.

>

> Let me put it this way;

>

> Just swapping the profession mechanic skills in and of themselves for different ones does not make it a proper trade off. If we look at the core capabilities of the class; what can you do in terms of damage, what can it do in terms of healing, what can it do in terms of mobility, what can it do in terms of defense, it's not tinkering with Profession Skills that makes it a good trade off, though that is certainly an option.

>

> The examples I give are druid, which 100% of the elite spec pigeon holes it into healing that no matter how you build it, you can never build one that has the damage capabilities of a core ranger let alone soul beast. Just taking druid means you gain more healing than a core ranger, but you have less damage just based on the weapon, traits, and utilities you get, even though pre-drawback it just gave ranger an F5 mechanic on top of their other profession mechanics.

>

> Holosmith, despite having a "drawback" according to Arenanet's definition, is a badly designed elite spec because while it gives it higher damage and mobility potential the traits and utilities means it also has higher healing, active defenses, stability, than what a core engineer is capable on top of that.

>

> While drawbacks can and often are appropriate (I think the Spellbreaker drawback is a beautifully designed one), it's not always appropriate or necessary to have a drawback with certain more carefully designed elite specializations.

>

> If the capabilities of a core profession look something like this:

>

> 

>

> Then elite specs should be doing something like this:

>

> 

>

> And sometimes you can achieve healthily that with certain drawbacks. Sometimes drawbacks aren't necessary. That's what I'm trying to explain.

Fair enough, I get your point. I'm inclined to agree with that design philosophy. As long as whatever proposed solution does not cause cause addition to or persistence in the "holosmith camp," that's fine. If that ends up not being as hard as a 50% endurance shave, fine, because I still want to fight mirages (and chronos for that matter) when this is over. Just not stacked ones.

> > > 3. Since Mirage is designed to be an evasive, mobile, condition damage skirmisher it makes more sense for mirage to lose sturdiness which gives it a clear weakness for the strengths it gets.

> > Evasive and condition oriented yes. Mobile I doubt. In addition to losing flat sturdiness, there should also be mechanical situations that they cannot just cover with cloak or distortion whenever they want, as long as they have endurance.

> Literally half of Mirage's utilities are blinks; Illusory Ambush, Mirage Advance, and Jaunt. In fact when Mirage was first playable during the demo weekend one of the main complaints from my first impressions is that so many of the utilities were boring blinks.

Short range, though. I'd call that more agile/deceptive than mobile.You're not going to blink with total freedom, only around a target. I get what you mean however, there's no need to split hairs on that, and that kind of target breaking definitely fits the skirmisher archetype.

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> Hi, we are nerfing all cc to do low damage

Just keep in mind, once this goes through, that you take a second look at the CC you just nerfed. Any CC that had secondary effects or conditional perks based on what its hit context was needs to get those conditions moved in some form to either their followup skills, or provide some kind of boon.

For example:

Revenge counter will need a revisit.

Headbutt will need a revisit, as it is supposed to do more damage if it removes stability.

You may want to revisit Executioners Scythe, because it's a two second cast with an obvious animation and can only hit one person because it was based on spike damage.

You may want to revisit palm strike.

I'm sure a bunch of cc also fits this bill, but those are the ones I know off the top of my head. Just making sure that stays on the radar.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Foshizle.9802" said:

> > > I don't understand Shadow Arts nerf. It's currently a meta trait on more than 1 build, none of which really uses "Shadow's Rejuvenation" let alone "Merciful ambush".

> > > Given the overall nerfs and thief play style remaining the same, SA will be be even better in perspective than it currently is.

> > >

> > > Overall stealth was barely touched, heartseeker ignored (it will hit pretty hard after these nerfs), shadow shot went from 4 to 5 innitiative,... thief meta strength received a very gentle slap compared to other specs.

> > >

> > > But overall well done, this was needed.

> >

> > This. If you're going to hit everyone hit thieves in sa harder. The last thing we need is this getting soured by permastealth.

> >

> > Im usually not one for proposing thief hits because squishy, but by extension all thieves just got less squishy. They can take more shaving to SA in particular. Leeching venoms and siphoning can probably be dialed back.

> >

> > Also people who wanted exorbitant nerfs getting them but also getting their cheese nerfed **WHEEZE**

> >

>

> Siphoning? Like, Shadow Siphoning? The trait so irrelevant its a minor so that people cant skip it? Of all the things to nerf, Im surprised youd nerf the one thing that desperately needed buffs pre-patch.

Look, I'd rather no additional nerfs to thief. I'm just saying If it happened to get hit, it would be something I could live with. theres a small group of people going "REEE SA DAMAGE" right now, and I'd rather that than people gutting stealth access on the stealth traitline because of it.

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

>And I'm talking in actual games

Nah none of that. give us an amulet/armor rating at least. There's a whole lot of circumstances that could lead you to getting 3k on someone in game.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> TLDR:

> 1. One Bar for Dodge Roll fundamentally alters how endurance is played with in a way that means endurance regeneration is only ever in a state where it is being wasted.

Maybe? more on that below.

> 2. With dodge rolls in a state where endurance regeneration is inherently wasted in some way, enemies fighting a mirage can both maintain a dodge for important skills and dodge minor skills while regenerating more dodge rolls.

Understood, but more on that below.

> 2. Trade offs are dumb, well designed elite specs never necessarily needed direct drawbacks.

Not on board with this. When they were designed to be core+, people were all over asking for core to be gutted to balance them, or lamenting how core was useless. Defined weakness is fine.

> 3. Since Mirage is designed to be an evasive, mobile, condition damage skirmisher it makes more sense for mirage to lose sturdiness which gives it a clear weakness for the strengths it gets.

Evasive and condition oriented yes. Mobile I doubt. In addition to losing flat sturdiness, there should also be mechanical situations that they cannot just cover with cloak or distortion whenever they want, as long as they have endurance.

> 4. Mirage should keep 2 bars of endurance and lose -300 vitality, which makes more sense for mirage both thematically and gameplay wise than it ever did for scrapper. They maintain evasiveness but when hits land they matter more.

I'm not on board with this, but-

> 5. Two Clone Limit is a far smarter change than one dodge roll bar.

Fair.

> 6. Dodge on stun still needs to go.

Fair. If it goes we don't need this endurance reduction, and then the 300 vitality reduction is fair game. Clones can even be kept the same.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> Everyone: Infinite Horizon is the problem with mirage and must be reworked!

> Anet: *Nerfs renewing oasis, mirage cloak, and dune cloak*

I don't know why they seem to be just plain avoiding that. It would have fixed all of the problems I can see with the class as it stands.

Regarding Evasion:

Cannn mirages just focus on chaining evade mirrors? I know the evasion shave seems like a lot , but there's a pretty sizable avenue for creating mirage mirrors that you can chain into for more evasion. Even jaunting into them would work. Mirror chaining seems like it would be the apex of mirage gameplay and it's pretty skillful at that.

Whatever gets picked, as long as mirages cant just panic press at least __one__ of those options they normally use when they get cced, that is fine. The fix proposed needs to address that. If you just shave vitality off them, it does nothing to people that will just panic press their non-utility resources to get out of a situation they should have avoided to begin with, especially with cc itself not doing any damage up front. If anything, they have more of a window now to avoid damage, and that needs to be limited __somehow__.

I'll avoid being petty regarding this because I don't want the class to __outright die/be unplayable.__ I do think, though, that mirage mirrors would help fix the problem that one dodge bar offers and people just seem to be ignoring them.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > You want a global init recharge increase on top of that, Shadowpass? You sure it's not just spite?

>

> Maybe you should read a little better. I'm suggesting to increase the initiative recharge rate from 1.67 per tick to 2s and leave the current initiative costs the way they are.

1.) You should be clearer on specifying that. You only mentioned it several posts down and I have room to question whether your OP originally intended to propose both at the same time. If you didnt intend for both of those changes to hit at once, you would have specified it out of the gate.

2.) Still no. I'd rather the changes be made to the skills themselves instead of ruining muscle memory globally. They probably can't even split that.

> It's not spite. You sure you're not just hard defending your main class even though the nerfs it's receiving are relatively _light_ in comparison to what the majority of the other classes are getting?

__I'm a warrior main but, whatever~__

> Flanking Strike didn't receive any initiative cost increases. "Every skill" :joy:

Do you want an init increase to Flanking strike? Go for it. You can't have global though.

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> # Thief

> Short Bow

> * Disabling Shot: Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5

>Sword

> * Pistol Whip: Reduced initial hit power coefficient from 0.37 to 0.01. Reduced stun duration from 0.75 seconds to 0.5 seconds. Reduced flurry hit power coefficients from 0.79 to 0.53. Increased initiative cost from 5 to 6.

> Dagger MH

> * Shadow Shot: Increased intiative cost from 4 to 5

> * Death Blossom: Increased initiative cost from 4 to 5

> Rifle

> * Death's Retreat: Increased initiative cost from 5 to 6

> * Death's Judgment: Reduced power coefficient from 1.65 to 1.11

> Heal

> * Skelk Venom: Reduced initial heal coefficient from 0.75 to 0.4. Reduced initial base heal from 4210 to 3578

> * Withdraw: Increased cooldown from 18 seconds to 25 seconds. Increased base heal from 4778 to 5243

> * Channeled Vigor: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds

> * Malicious Restoration: Increased cooldown from 25 seconds to 30 seconds

> Acrobatics

> * Pain Response: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 60 seconds

> * Hard to Catch: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

> * Instant Reflexes: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 seconds

> Daredevil

> * Escapist's Fortitude: Reduced base heal from 456 to 150

You want a global init recharge increase on top of that, Shadowpass? You sure it's not just spite?

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > Decreasing thieves' initiative regen from 1.67 seconds per tick to 2 seconds would be fine. That's a "lil tap-tap" of a nerf. Then, initiative costs can be left alone.

> >

> > Imagine every thief weapon set needing to wait 2 seconds for one init pip.

>

> Imagine every other class getting cooldown increases of 2-10 seconds and having half their weapon skills deal 50 damage while you guys get 1.67 cooldown increases on like 4 skills.

>

> Oh wait... you don't have to imagine :joy: That's literally what's happening.

?

The fact that thieves don't have as much access to cc as the rest of the class lineup is no reason to go on a crusade to nerf them in arbitrary ways because you feel a nerf to shortbow evade, a nerf to pistol whip, a nerf to fortitude, a damage shave like everyone else got to all weapon sets, and a significant heal nerf like everyone else got (Not to mention the condition application and initiative nerfs we got) somehow isn't enough.

Thief's never played by the same rules cooldown wise as everyone else when it comes to initiative.

We also got cooldown increases on a hell of a lot, what are you talking about. Look at all the init increases we got for our evades. Every skill we have that wasnt already at 6 init for an evade, with the exception of staff 3, got more costly. Including shadow shot.

Can you not, lol.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Decreasing thieves' initiative regen from 1.67 seconds per tick to 2 seconds would be fine. That's a "lil tap-tap" of a nerf. Then, initiative costs can be left alone.

Imagine every thief weapon set needing to wait 2 seconds for one init pip.

Thief not deleted from game/stealth not deleted from game 0/10 game is garbage

I wont leave though

> @"Kuma.1503" said:

> **Forums pre patch:**

>

> Nerf Weaver, it does too much damage and has too much sustain and has perma evades. Nerf firebrand it spams boonz and heals and makes people immortal. Nerf Mirage it's too much visual clutte-- Nerf theif why does pistol whip stun and deal damage--Nerf Warrio--Nerf Herald--Nerf--

>

> **Forums post patch:**

>

> kitten Anet why did you nerf *insert class ability here* You're obviously bad at your job. You could hire a janitor to do the job better.

>

> **Me:**

>

> *Eating popcorn on the side lines*

Yep.

Regarding the thief thing specifically: both pistol whip AND escapists fortitude on thief got nerfed, both the hot button issues in addition to the damage scaling, but instead of considering that people are just rolling on to another thing like thief barely got touched at all. If those two items weren't such a big deal, why were there a billion forum posts asking for them to be adjusted?

The most you're going to get now out of thief nerfwise is a shave to their minor traits in SA. That's it. No initiative decreases, no shortbow needing to spend more init, nothing. If thieves want to be ghosts on the battlefield and give up map control they can def do that.

Regarding the main point: I play everything, its real satisfying/entertaining to watch everyone who has had a complained-about mechanic or synergy, but didn't like fighting someone else's version of it also get shaved and not be okay with that turnout.

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > Have you know the devs who play this game are not golds either.

>

> ^ It's true. The person largely responsible for this patch has a lot of experience actually PvPing.

>

> Whether that's a good or bad thing is up to you really.

>

>

They also are, apparently, an ele main.

Go figure.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Yet Another Imda Smurf xD.8236" said:

> > > increase the initiative cost of Shortbow 5.

> >

> > no. you can have nerfs to shadow arts siphoning.

>

> Hmm I might try to make a pacifist thief after the patch, and just run between nodes. I wonder how far I can go in ranking that way xd

That's basically how people were insisting we play for the past 4 years so go for it.