Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Laera Myrith.7605" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Seems accurate actually but one very important question.

> > What does purlonier get as a espec?

>

> nothing, pulonier is OP by extension, all we get is more nerfs and forum cry's. XD

Forum cry's op pls nerf

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> That a person may not like playing against a certain build is not germane to the discussion when trying to suggest it OP.

Yes, "Not fun" and "OP" are two different things. That distinction is important.

I'd like the game to not have certain playstyles, but not at the cost of the class they're attached to. In those situations sometimes you need to settle for counterplay. Especially if the class playing in a way that's "fun" for you either consists of them eventually losing the MU, doesn't exist in a way you can reasonably define (at which point it's just resentment without a purpose), or requires a significant degree more skill than is required of you on the class you play.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> I’d have to agree tbh but thief has way more dodges and can los much better via sword 2 and ports and it can also deny los better. This feels kind of good in 1v1s for me personally

Why can't it be good for 1v1s? Thief should be allowed to 1v1 if it specs for it.

Also critting for 6k isn't a lot of damage. that's about half a glassy spec's base hp pool, assuming they do nothing to stop you, and you have a significant amount of setup to get that damage to land.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Even if I beat a PW daredevil, I don't enjoy the fight.

We may not see through the same lens here but if there's one thing I can agree with it's this, and I am willing to have PW reworked if it no longer becomes mandatory to MU builds that are even less fun to fight.

> The "cheese mountain" comment was in respect to all professions, not just thief. I guess I should define I see "cheese" as a meta build built around the abuse of some overtuned mechanic.

I know, I was just saying I'm willing to play the cheese game if everyone else is.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> I don’t really get your point. There’s definitely some stun present as swipe with acro on a perma dodge build is probably more spammable than it ever was in the past. Even then if u don’t want pulmonary u can take havoc specialist and escapist fortitude which is still way better than it ever was.

Playing Valk doesn't make thief a burst class. It makes you an off bruiser. You will be relatively bruiserlike unless paired against an actual bruiser/burst class/bunker. How that is broken I can't see.

Sure, you can get damage with backstabs and larcenous, but it's all front loaded if you're using crit runes/sigils. if you whiff those or your opponent lives your sustained damage is your weakness.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> It's at the point that the basic tools provided by a profession allow certain skills to over preform. Like fire weavers many evades paired with pulsing of high burn stacks. **The evades alone are not an issue, it's the fact they can continue to pressure you while doing it.**

There are several builds, several dozen skills and one whole spec for mesmer that are built around pressuring you while also evading/being invulnerable. What is the cutoff point for that crossing over from balanced into overperforming? I'm totally fine if there is a definable metric for that that isn't just a thinly veiled euphemism for "Eh, thief seems to be working, must be broken".

Again, not pointing the finger at you in any respect here.

> All I really want is more skillful fights with a longer TTK where it's not just a race to the top of cheese mountain with the new cheesy build flavor of the month.

More skillful? Sure. Longer TTK? Careful what you wish for. Bunker meta is worse than glass meta. As for cheese mountain, if everything thief does that's not dying is considered cheese/underhanded in its current state and nobody else wants their build to be rebalanced for meeting the same qualification one of the squishiest characters in the game meets, I call dibs on the provolone.

Also obviously OP is exaggerating, forgot to mention. Only time it gets hard to counterplay is when thief has quickness, which is rare unless fighting a mes, which in most respects can just ignore the damage whenever they want anyway. Other than that windup and stun duration being .75 seconds means you can act before they hit you with another one.

OP also plays herald which can disable stealth 600r around itself. Pistol whip is the answer to that. If you wanna give up your revealed nuke I'd be glad to go back to Dagger/Pistol, otherwise use your stunbreak in that rare situation that a thief with quickness decides to press 3 on you.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> The reason they have permanent dodge with cc is because they merged the condi clear trait with the heal which also allows you to take pulmonary impact as second tier. Tbh this is kind of busted in general and it’s not just pw, pretty much and daredevil build with acro seems busted rn.

> Example- I accidentally played my first placement as acro, bound Valkyrie s/d because the season came out of nowhere and it seemed decent so I played all my placements with this troll build and somehow I placed 9-1 solo q when commonly going against legend players.

> My point being absolutely anything that takes advantage of acro and these new daredevil trait can be busted. It makes you potentially very tanking and if you take advantage in my case of damage modifiers u can still hit for 6k on larcenous or u can just spam cc for damage. It’s so incredibly ez with almost zero downside in specing for it

Not on board with claiming Escapists Fortitude is busted when it removes one condition/pulses heal once per evade and classes exist that can load you with condis then stow and disable your trait, much less "every thief that runs acro can be busted".

Methinks that reeks of needless self-flagellation. If you get high mileage out of that skill its because you earned it.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> That's if the theif is standing where you can see them, a good thief will hug some kind of geometry as to hide the animations, but that's all just detail as this point.

At what point do we separate class-carry from tactical play/smart play though.

> I already made a post about how overloaded skills need to be toned back in general. A high damage/stun/evade/heal/condi removal in a single skill seems a little overloaded to me.

In general is the key point. As long as that is honored, set whatever standard you want~

The one thing I won't do is keep struggling and getting pushed off point because classes either outheal my damage on zerker or can evade chain relentlessly or turn off my defensive options with a button, while claiming thief is overpowered because it can run away.

We hit that arguing point and found out it doesn't work in 2015.

I don't mind playing as skillfully as I need to to win my matchups, as long as freebies aren't continuously handed to classes that don't need them. If that continues to be the case (as in, classes having ridiculously long evade/invuln chains/outhealing while still doing enough damage to down me with a couple skills either through condi or power) expect cheese in various flavors, whether that be backstab builds or rifle or what have you.

Not addressing you specifically, just how I feel about this meta in general. Basically feels like a bunch of people gorging themselves at a banquet that get upset when a hungry person gets fed. (except for necro. theyve been bullied a lot.)

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> > > Imagine revs being able to spamm Unrelenting Assault or wars spamming whirlwind attack...

> > > "tHeY hAvE a ShOrT wInDoW bEfOrE aNd AfTerCaSt. YoU nEeD tO sToP sPaMmInG aLl YoUr Cd'S aNd TiMe YoUr SkIlLs" lmao

> >

> > The fact that pistol whip doesn't move you to your target aside, I hit revs with headbutt/shield bash all the time right as they're coming out of unrelenting because the aftercast makes that move free/forces them to burn their darkness gaze/their energy on shiro evade if they don't want to get stunned. Don't see why that counterplay isn't enough for thief.

>

> Because thief shadowstep into PW has no tell for you to follow like unrelenting assault. It also has much better disengage/reengage potential if it goes poorly. PW is already a low risk, high reward skill that can be further mitigated by their plethora of teleports and evade.

Sure it does, if we're not counting stealth. If a thief is winding up pistol whip from 1200 range (or 600, whichever you prefer), is facing you, and clearly won't hit you from where you're standing, you can treat that like churning earth/lightning flash and dodge preemptively.

But at this point, whatever. Just make sure the skill requirement that you hold thief to also applies to every other class~

> @"Eugchriss.2046" said:

> Imagine revs being able to spamm Unrelenting Assault or wars spamming whirlwind attack...

> "tHeY hAvE a ShOrT wInDoW bEfOrE aNd AfTerCaSt. YoU nEeD tO sToP sPaMmInG aLl YoUr Cd'S aNd TiMe YoUr SkIlLs" lmao

The fact that pistol whip doesn't move you to your target aside, I hit revs with headbutt/shield bash all the time right as they're coming out of unrelenting because the aftercast makes that move free/forces them to burn their darkness gaze/their energy on shiro evade if they don't want to get stunned. Don't see why that counterplay isn't enough for thief.

> @"Gundam Style.8495" said:

> Playing the sides isn't really a class role and that is why it is the most frequently attacked.

That's a hot take but damned if it ain't reasonable

Also #Poststhatagedwell

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Have you fought a core necro though? I had one the other day hit for like **2K** with their shroud auto from forever away, so broken. Necro throwing out these chad autos compared to soulbeasts virgin rapid fire.

>

I have, on a zerker thief. That MU is still stacked in my favor because I get out of any fear chain for practically free, I take smoke field, and the moment they go into shroud I have at least two methods of vanishing and one reflect occasionally for stifling it, apart from the smoke field that destroys projectiles.

Then the moment they're out of shroud I have 10 seconds to whale on them and only need to expect:

* Theyll put spectral ring around me, which I will port out of if they are anywhere outside it

* Theyll use spectral armor, in which case good luck not dying before shroud comes back up

* Theyll use spectral walk, in which case I will snap to them with sword 2 when they port back

Basically Necro/Reaper is this:

wait-

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> **2K**

EDIT: Oh kitten you were kidding

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > But at the same time, I agree with the sentiment that people should at least play around with the classes they want nerfed before coming to the forums, to see whether or not that flashy gameplay that just stomped you was someone being carried by their class

> [logs onto soul beast and fights you]

> :'D

Nerf Soulbeast

I think that, while there is a contingent of people who absolutely just want their main buffed and everything else nerfed so they can steamroll (or continue to steamroll) everything, there is also a large group of people who want a match where they don't feel like they were robbed of a good game experience due to some mechanic that is excessively punishing or difficult to respond to.

What constitutes "difficult to respond to" often varies based on the class someone plays, the classes it is weak or strong against, their relative skill level, and any number of other situations, so there are generally a lot of different lenses that people are viewing the subject of competitive imbalance through.

I don't think its fair to shovel everyone into the "everyone just wants Z buffed or Y nerfed because Y counters Z and they happen to play Z".

But at the same time, I agree with the sentiment that people should at least play around with the classes they want nerfed before coming to the forums, to see whether or not that flashy gameplay that just stomped you was someone being carried by their class, or someone who spent time becoming skilled at their class. I've seen no small number of posts where people seem to ignore gameplay that denotes a skilled player and attribute it to the class or the build they play, while at the same time claiming that their suggested fixes promote skillful play when they're just blanket nerfs/unnecessary buffs in disguise.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> The problem is that many (not all) players do not understand the game to an extent to be able to make usefull / constructive suggestions.

> 90% of the balance suggestions we can read in this forum would make the game worse. But contrary to the OP I think this is just a result of a lack of understanding of the game.

This is absolutely true though. Please at least try the class you want nerfed before you come asking for things on the forums, and try to assess whether mechanics you have make certain matchups excessively unfair. If nothing else, it'll give you some perspective as to why people think your class is busted even if you have put a lot of effort into learning it and are skilled at it. I used to think (and still do) think thief was fine, for instance; but after seeing all the upset remarks from Crinn and Burnfall and other necro mains being just livid vs it, I decided to go play reaper/necro vs thief and that matchup is stupid levels of tilted in the thiefs favor.

Even though the thief has to be reasonably skilled to be rewarded, the necro is usually not rewarded in that matchup even if they also are. I'm pretty sure there's other situations like that.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > **Broken as in broken? Necro and its derivatives. Necro has a hard matchup vs every meta spec for no reason.**

> >

> > Broken as in overpowered? Probably weaver, also FB.

>

> _cries in chronomancer_

Yall have a neat build relax

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > > All I want is to give Bull's Charge the Rampage treatment.

> >

> > As I understand it that is an example Cal used directly. That Bull's Charge having its damage trimmed off doesn't actually hurt what the skill itself is used for; which is to say that Warrior's use it for the Evade, gap close, and the CC. Removing its damage won't hinder its effectiveness so long as other similar CC skills get the same treatment which is the broader intention.

>

> That's fine. At least I won't be getting over a third of my health removed just from getting hit with it.

Totally fine with giving that damage up if that metric is applied across the board.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > Necromancer is way overpowered. It feared me over a cliff and I died from fall damage. It was basically a 1 skill KO, broken. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) @"Azure The Heartless.3261"

> >

> > [upset Charr Noises]

>

> I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'll get serious now....core engi.

~~[booing]~~

Actually lemme go see if I can break grenade engie

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> You mean like how literally every other class in the game is also the "embodiment of power creep"? Warrior is not some outlying, singular circumstance of the power creep issue, it isn't even the prime contributing instigator of it, its a **result** of all the other power creep in the game for literally **every other** class.

> Like I said, Warrior is not "the problem" or the singular issue, its **everything**. Every class; because **every** class has some trait, ability, build, etc that is just pure and utter nonsense and overtuned or cheesey memey ridiculousness because **that** is the meta in this game right now. The things that work **best** are basically cheese builds that exploits, in this case, sPvP and its faults.

> As I said in a previous post, the biggest **prime** contributor to this problem is not any one particular class and no one particular class is more the "embodiment" of it than any other, but it is boons and how accessible they are.

Basically this, sans necro because they are the only class that dont have some kind of spec synergy that allows them contend in such a way that they are not constantly exploitable.

I am totally fine with scaling back things like shake it off and pistol whip if the classes that force me to need to slot those or die also get toned down. Either you buff necro so its just as crept, ot you nerf everything to the level that necro has been aggressively balanced at for the past couple of years.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Necromancer is way overpowered. It feared me over a cliff and I died from fall damage. It was basically a 1 skill KO, broken. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) @"Azure The Heartless.3261"

[upset Charr Noises]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

Now Imagine being a PvE Dev and having to do this for 9 classes js

Broken as in broken? Necro and its derivatives. Necro has a hard matchup vs every meta spec for no reason.

Broken as in overpowered? Probably weaver, also FB.

~~Who let you out of the pvp forums there's still more pointless arguing to do-~~

What I'd like to add is that, even if you attempt to expand the definition of "pay to win" to "pay to have a flashier outfit or weapon set than others and thereby gain the illusion of a higher social standing", even that argument no longer works for GW2. Between the gemstore gold to gems conversion rate, the flashiest of all armors and weapons being locked (largely) through heavy PvE or WvW or PvP involvement, and the saturation of Black Lion weapon skins causing most of them to be relatively inexpensive goldwise, there's really no major paywall for just making your character look good.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > Fact is : Every thief takes SB becouse its free mobility

> >

> > I mean I don't take SB but \shrug

> >

>

> How dare you, sir. You are no thief, begone from here and lay your thief badge on my desk on your way out. Disgusting... >:(

D8<

Well I never-

Its not my fault Staff is more fun on acro D/D if you're not fighting on Kyhlo

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> Skills can be tellegraphed all they want...if they are spammable with a cooldown of essentially ~10 seconds, telegraphing doesnt matter.

The last time I fought a weaver on my reaper, the moment I went into shroud she chained evades for well over ten seconds, back to back, while also having superspeed and ccing me with focus. I was using speed rune.

Using a skill once every ten seconds hardly constitutes spam, and even if it did I would still find it hard to believe that its actually a problem. I have come to expect block and invuln and evade chains in the current meta, so it is especially surprising to me that, knowing most classes can do those block and evade and invuln chains, that we'd be here talking about getting hit for 4k from rush in particular and to a lesser extent warrior just generally hitting you hard.

Its silly. If this was about might gen alone and even magebane tether pulsing might too quickly, I'd be in agreement. Less so "everything warrior does hits so hard".