Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

Okay but give thieves more active mitigation instead.

> @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

> Team USA, Rank 55 Dragons. What makes these people so good? Discuss.

Trust of your team and having fun while playing exponentially improves skillful play.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Ashimmu.4219" said:

> > but now I can't just one shot them which is the main problem here.

> forums in a nutshell.

Can we get this on a plaque somewhere because this is like 90% of complaint threads here.

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > Necro -> core necro

> fixed.

Explain~

> @"takatsu.9416" said:

> Nerf everything pls, so that we all can only use sticks and stones, thank you :P

Nerf Stick range is insane

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

> >

> > This is what I'm talking about when it comes to context in a match changing how strong something is. It only takes getting nuked once by a glass mesmer for you to understand that you should be paying attention to the minimap to see where they are before you go stand on a point. If they're nowhere to be seen, reconsider standing there for 6 seconds to rule out mass invis, then listen/watch for anything that may indicate a mesmer is setting up to gank you.

> >

>

> How do you watch or indicate something that can't be seen duh.

Read the rest of @"Leonidrex.5649" 's post. Most of mesmer's stealth skills create an audio cue (and in some cases a visual one) when used.

If you couple knowledge of that with occasional glances at the minimap to see if the mesmer is in combat somewhere, you can more often that not figure out what they plan to do or whether it is safe to decap/cap.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> torch 4 has big animation, and loud and clear sound.

> if you use it to chain stealth you will explode in stealth after 3/4,5s giving even more queue.

> Mass invis has long cast time, and big ripple animation.

> Decoy has no animation or sound that can be heard, signet of midnight has sound and animation.

> And desperate is in combat and passive.

I think they need a bit more telegraph because @"Trevor Boyer.6524" showed that they can wipe you from stealth under certain cases. But only a bit. Anything too glaring and the build will be crippled vs anyone paying attention to the above.

Decoy should probably have a sound cue added regardless of whether you target someone close enough to spawn clone or not. Apart from that,

If you see pink flames, hear any shimmer noises, see a ripple, or see a purple sword, you're about to get exploded.

I understand the frustration, and I think that the classes that dont have tools to retaliate properly against a mes who tries this (Like maybe necro) should get those. But when you consider that, vs any decent player, failing that burst means the mes loses (especially if the class they failed it on is a thief), you have very little room for error when it comes to balancing that. The sound cues are fine. If we can balance this by making those more audible or something then I'd go for that before any number changes.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I think we're all a bit nervous.

> I do hope he's prepared for an ocean of negative feed back because if everything in the game is getting hammered down balancewise, literally everyone is going to walk away initially angry and upset regardless of whether the changes are good or bad.

As long as no small fraction of classes are left overperforming, let the negative feedback that would have come from people that want the game to be fair but instead is now coming from people playing specs that can't carry them come. We're going to be angry anyway, but being angry because we took things for granted is much better than being angry because class X by nature of its rotation invalidates our class of choice and several others as well.

> @"Stallic.2397" said:

> If any reductions, they'll probably just reduce one shot capabilites of certain classes (cough, mesmer and thief, cough)

> Reduce sustain of other classes (Weaver, holo, etc)

> And reduce 25 stacks of might across the board.

>

> None of those nerfs should destroy over all damage.

This is my opinion on it as well. And that's fine if that is how its going. As long as classes need to show you how you are about to die, and cannot infinitely make mistakes and still be able to heal to full, then the damage delivery should remain relatively stable.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

This is what I'm talking about when it comes to context in a match changing how strong something is. It only takes getting nuked once by a glass mesmer for you to understand that you should be paying attention to the minimap to see where they are before you go stand on a point. If they're nowhere to be seen, reconsider standing there for 6 seconds to rule out mass invis, then listen/watch for anything that may indicate a mesmer is setting up to gank you.

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> inb4 cri moar l2weever/nurf ele…

>

>

>

>

People are out here still getting nuked by churning earth/Lightning flash

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> Literally no class can spam damage while negating damage except mirage and thief. Stop the bs

That's not the exact argument I was making. I said a large amount of other classes have moves that negate damage and still allow them to attack, and that is true.

Ranger with Signet of Stone, Soulbeast with either Smoke Assault or Unflinching fortitude

Warrior with endure pain, and GS 3

Ele with obsidian flesh

Renegade with Unrelenting Assault.

And all those classes either get to move or choose any action they want while they evade or otherwise ignore damage. They also all have larger HP pools. If you choose to stand in pistol whip when the stun doesn't even lock you into all of it, and call that spam, that's another argument entirely; however largely people have learned to play around the classes that can ignore strikes while doing theirs, and most of them can stick to you to boot. It makes no sense to single out thief for also doing this, when its version is more punishable and more avoidable. by nature.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Traits like this could be made.

> Attacks while wielding sword main hand generates might a fury -> x cooldown

> Attacks while wielding dagger main hand applies fury and vulnerability for - y seperate cooldown, you get benyfits from switching between sword/dagger -> you could make dueling generating might fury -> infis stab kind of playstyle. But one can dream, dont think devs will try to make anything work.

If the devs want to rebalance thieves so we can sidenode without being relegated to decap duty or having to overrely on stealth (which people also hate and want deleted), fine by me. As long as the class rewards skillful play and isn't made unviable again, it's whatever.

I'm not into this outrage over a move that has utility, but is telegraphed and punishable with just baseline awareness though. It would be much easier to just expect people to know how to interrupt, or play around a telegraphed move than it would be to rework the entirety of thief because they don't want to.

The only class mains that get a free pass to complain about this are Necro and their derivatives. Every other class has a mechanic or mitigating skill pool that's even better, and some of those classes can also press a button indiscriminately to disable stealth or react to the pistol whip after the stun hits them and take no damage from the follow up.

Oh also.

If Pistol Whip is going to be nerfed because you think it's cheese, **revealed across the board needs to be nerfed as well.**

You cannot punish thief stealth damage mitigation and evade damage mitigation at the same time. **Pick one, or the other.** Either they get to stealth more freely, or you wait 1 second to interrupt. If evading for 1.25 seconds per cast is cheese, then so is being able to disable a class's defense with a button, or by touching them while they're attempting to use it, especially when they have traits that rely on stealth being unbroken to benefit them. If PW spam is brainless, then so is gaze of darkness, sic'em, magebane tether, Justice Spear, and lock on.

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> **Mumbling** "ejwir gjjgrhhph psiimrmm zemoph...I need to find my pistolwhip..... JUSTICE!

lmfao

I can't believe you've done this.

> @"Asuran.5469" said:

> > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

> >

>

> No they don't. Bull's Charge has evade frame before the stun lands, not at the same time. BC also doesn't allow the Warrior to teleport at you instantly with a JI like effect while it's happening.

>

> Mirage Cloak is an effect that combos with any effect it wants, which highly regarded as the most broken class effect in the game for many reasons. There are scores of full forum pages & threads discussing why this mechanic should be removed from the game completely.

>

> Arcane Shield? What? No. It's just a precast shield. This is hardly a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spammable every 2s to 3s.

>

> Signet of Stone what? It's a 40s CD 3s invuln. This is not a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spamable every 2s to 3s.

I'm not invested in this argument anymore, but read my premise again.

> > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

My opinion on that hasn't changed. **Many classes can press buttons to negate damage while they're still attacking**, and thief seems to be the only one punished for it, even when that damage negation results in an animation lock for the thief that can be exploited by cc at the end of the move or before it comes out.

Push to nerf what you want. Just be careful that your rationale doesn't fail to make sense if it is applied to any other mechanic that leads to the same situation in a skirmish.

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> I can assure you this build u have is b a d

-Famous last words

-Pistol Whip Thief 2019

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> I wouldnt cuz if people start using it and it has even a 30% success rate in fights the few that died to it will spam the forums stating its OP'ness which will cause a bandwagon of a tin more nerf cry post for it.

> This is gw2 forums

> This is the way.

tbh

We're really out here trying to get pistol whip and terrormancer nerfed before FB

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Excuse me kitten lmao reaper almost least damage in game omg I done reading this thread it's too much,biased in this community is unreal and useless to hope it would get any better.

Its lowest per second/given its context and that your opponent is human. Every other class can deliver the same amount of damage in a very short timespan. If you sit in Reaper 4 or dont dodge reaper 5 and end up getting blended, or fail to dodge gravedigger, or run out of tools to dodge life blasts, you will of course get blown up. But that damage delivery has big telegraphs and is hard countered by kiting, interrupts, or what have you at any time that it is being delivered.

They have consistent high damage. There's no dispute about that. but who's gonna sit in a reaper 4 or auto, or not dodge exec scythe by choice? Even warriors damage delivery is snappier than that. High damage that you have a narrow window to avoid is effectively higher damage than the same amount of damage being delivered where you have multiple avenues to avoid it, so situationally it is lower. Even before you start delivering the damage, you have to send a big green "Im gonna dps you now" telegraph to your opponent, which gives them time to prepare to evade you.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Just another example of players on a class being forced to play a chees build which is 90% of the game these days

I am a thousand percent sure that if Necros in general had more active mitigation/cc removal (That didnt debilitate them more than it helped), Reapers and Scourges would see more use and necros wouldnt be shoveling everything into fearing you halfway across the map just to stay alive.

They need buffs. anything they find to play is going to be played with extreme prejudice because of how hard things like spellbreaker and thief counter them.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> It's entirely situational. If you're getting feared towards their ring? DH trap? Then it may save you.

True enough, I stand corrected.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fear is a condi, cleanse it.

> > > > > See other post

> > > > > > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > >Oh yeah and I'll be careful to save my condi cleanse so that I can use it while CCd. oh wait. . .

> > > >

> > > > It isn't instant cast, and even if it was being casted at 1200 range would put you out of range for spectral wall, which gets cast at 900 range max. They cant chain fear you starting at 1200. You have to be up close or get stab corrupted to be chain feared.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I would also like to point out you might not have applied stab to yourself, a team mate could be applying stab to you which is very likely with all the FB running around. Since there is no way to NOT get stab from them you're kind of screwed if that's happening.

> >

> > __Then let it counter FB__

> > I that's the case, I'm for it __even more.__

> >

>

> I mean...it kinda sucks though that your teammates can potentially directly screw you over like that.

It sucks for the other team that one teammate can hard carry their teammates hp pools when theyre all together as well. And necro gets punished on its own, so being able to bust team synergy if not focused is a great plus for me, and I respect that entirely. Keep in mind necros are __immensely__ upset at being eaten alive by thieves or focused in team situations. I think being able to ruin FB's day is fair game for putting up with that punishment. But some tactical burden on FB so they have to be mindful about who they grant stab to., and possibly allow some people to go down instead of get everyone wiped.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > A player who has toggled Walk speed will travel less distance when Feared. Walk has no default key, but can be set in the keybinding options and toggled on when required.

>

I'd advise against doing that. Its better to let the fear take you away from the firefight than be in range for anyone supporting the necro even more than you have to be.

Even worse if its a reaper fearing you and you get cold shouldered. that's practically an immob.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Fear is a condi, cleanse it.

> > > See other post

> > > > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > >

> > > >Oh yeah and I'll be careful to save my condi cleanse so that I can use it while CCd. oh wait. . .

> >

> > It isn't instant cast, and even if it was being casted at 1200 range would put you out of range for spectral wall, which gets cast at 900 range max. They cant chain fear you starting at 1200. You have to be up close or get stab corrupted to be chain feared.

> >

>

> I would also like to point out you might not have applied stab to yourself, a team mate could be applying stab to you which is very likely with all the FB running around. Since there is no way to NOT get stab from them you're kind of screwed if that's happening.

__Then let it counter FB__

I that's the case, I'm for it __even more.__

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

>

> >

> > Fear is a condi, cleanse it.

> See other post

> > @"Ovark.2514" said:

>

> >Oh yeah and I'll be careful to save my condi cleanse so that I can use it while CCd. oh wait. . .

It isn't instant cast, and even if it was being casted at 1200 range would put you out of range for spectral wall, which gets cast at 900 range max. They cant chain fear you starting at 1200. You have to be up close or get stab corrupted to be chain feared. And any condi cleanse applied to you during any of that situation, whether it be from an ally or be from cleansing on weapon swap (Sigil of renewal works while feared) breaks the chain.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> While OP is exaggerating, I have been running into a lot of core fear necros myself lately. They are a pain to fight. Even without stability to corrupt.

Theyve been forced into it because Reaper is less sustainy and more kiteable, and Scourge is unviable in pvp in general. Its a desperation migration, just like thief/mes moving to shatter/PW.

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> The thing is it's a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation. If you run stability to prevent the fear from spectral wall or Doom or Staff 5 or whatever, you'll instantly be corrupted and then you are feared MORE than if you just took a stunbreak. But if you only take non-stab stunbreaks, you have exactly 0 time to do anthing once you stunbreak because you will be feared again. thanks to no stab.

Cleanse it. As @"ZDragon.3046" said, they only get more fear uptime off of you by corrupting stab. there is nothing stopping you from just cleansing the fear, or having it cleansed off you by allies.

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> Yeah you're right. I'll be careful to avoid the insta-cast 1200 range skill that forces me to walk in a specific direction next time so that I don't walk into a spectral wall. EDIT: Oh yeah and I'll be careful to save my condi cleanse so that I can use it while CCd. oh wait. . .

It isn't instant cast, and even if it was being casted at 1200 range would put you out of range for spectral wall.

Imagine being feared for 90% of your match

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> you dont have enough stab but necro is beating you... **by prob converting your stab..**.. what do you mean

> WHUTCHUMEAN!?

> WHAT IS YOUR WINNIN SCHEME?

> IS THIS POST A MEME?!?

lmfao this, Necro should actually be easier for you to faceroll now if you time your Elixir

> @"memausz.7264" said:

> After patch...

> Can't win

>It was meant to farm people who were underperforming in matches as it was the dmg-doing roamer.

Lol, that's super funny.

Rip my guy, holo still strong, you just cant force your damage now. Start dodging or using U to support key skills.

Don't share your good builds or give their trait and stat makeups to anyone. If its overpowered, it will be apparent and that will be handled on its own. If it's strong, even moderate success will have people calling to nerf it.