Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"VoidNard.7206" said:

> How are warriors allowed to have so much sustain, damage and that much cc all at once?

Because the majority of their builds damage output requires them to hug you for extensive periods of time, and most of their heavy or cc moves have startup frames so you can see them coming from a mile away.

> what are they bad at?

Ranged combat/being kited.

>Then you say "oh they are weak to ranged combat"..... like no, all they do is pull out their rifle and one shot you like a deadeye would.

They have one move that can hit you like a truck on rifle and it has a 1.75 second startup time and an obvious animation, which is well within human reaction speed.

The gun flame variant has an even bigger telegraph, with them having to be zerkermode to even access it at all.

Both of these moves can be blocked or reflected.

>Where is the idea that some classes are strong at certain things and other classes are stronger at other things.

See above.

>You dont see this concept in pvp and its masking the game unbalanced, since everyone can everything, especially warriors. This game is so frustrating, pvp just sucks. No wonder nobody wants to play it.

People aren't angry at rifle warrior. You can dodge that with enough practice. People are angry at PVP because there are a bunch of things that are outside of reasonable expectations for avoiding, but kill shot/Rifle warrior is not one of them.

> @"Jayden Reese.9542" said:

> They really are. I'm doing the backpack thing and it requires you to win 5 matches on 3 different classes so I made a war with no idea how to play one and won 5 outta 8 matches and could destroy players and easily run away if I wanted too. Still need 5 on a third class now and struggling with ranger. So lesson is if you see something op don't complain just play that class.

At low MMR, people don't know how to respond to telegraphs, and since warrior has the bluntest damage output, it is more devastating to people just starting pvp.

At mid to high MMR the opposite is true, and people will avoid you/your key skills while doing damage from range.

There will be future balancing, and if Bunker Symbol FB is doing too much it can be looked at. Gather data on what is overpowered about it; just because it's strong doesn't mean thief and mes _didn't_ need tuning.

All that matters is that they get the changes made. It doesn't have to be all in one patch.

> @"killerito.7629" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > You can kite pets. Rock Gazelle hurts but I don't think ranger is as egregious as you're claiming now, especially with the unblockable synergy soulbeast had being trimmed.

>

> you can't, cuz if you use all your breakstun or dodge on pet or only one too, ranger instakill you with 15k damage with 1 skill, and you miss the part where 3k/dps by pet are 30k every 10sec, my idea is only for introduce new radical changes with new mode, but this is impossible if exist a class that cant die 1v3 and have a pet that can kill heavy class with 1 hit, in a 2v2 or 3v3 all can go ranger and this is not funny i think, in a normal 5v5 match ranger can escape from 5 opponent easy and 1v1 can easy win vs all other class, this is the reason that led the game to die leaving it with less than 300 online in the pvp section

Ok

> @"killerito.7629" said:

> Anet I appreciate your commitment but until you understand that in pvp, the only class that needs radical changes is the ranger, the game will remain little followed and abandoned to itself, each class needs a minimum percentage of combos or burst to do so much damage to knock down an opponent, the ranger is the only one that any skill presses without logic, even with a single attack he can put the opponent in difficulty, this causes the fact that if the ranger concentrates his gameplay in escaping his pet will make the average of 3k / dps unblockable with stun annex preventing the opponent every move for the next 30 seconds of combat, to balance everything, we must first make the pet of the ranger a support animal and not to level of a normal player in attack, decreasing his every attack by about 90%, then it is mandatory to balance the stability of the ranger to the level of that of the other specializations, and not 10 15 stacks every 20 seconds, after which you can talk about fixing and making the game more competitive and fun.

>

> I play in top 50 since 2017 and all season reached always plat3/legendary rank

> But in the last year I noticed that the ranger is without any doubt superior to any other class without requiring a minimum of skill

> if you do this, you can start adding pvp modes in single or in minor groups of 2 3

You can kite pets. Rock Gazelle hurts but I don't think ranger is as egregious as you're claiming now, especially with the unblockable synergy soulbeast had being trimmed.

> @"Shaogin.2679" said:

>It feels like this is more just an early notice thread really.

That is precisely what it is, they want people to discuss the changes here to see what needs tweaking/addressing

>If no dev ever comes back on this thread to discuss the player's concerns, and the patch goes through as planned regardless of the feedback that is provided, then what is the point of this thread?

We can cross that bridge when we come to it. Give them time to discuss what they are doing; Its been less than two business days since the thread started.

While getting nuked by a scepter FA ele is annoying, it also gets erased if you sneeze on it, has to be within 900 range to nuke you, and cannot hide its presence or drop targets. Its about as risk reward as zerker thief with more telegraph in exchange for less nuke time.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> why would you assume i'm talking about the immob portion of that trait? its the whole deadly arts poison bloat that i'm referring to.

?

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> nah its panic strike that allows this build to exist.

If you were talking about the deadly arts poison bloat in general being the cause for condi thief overperformance, then you should specify that. Even if you mean specifically the poison stacks on Panic Strike being too much when boosted by deadly arts, those only start with an immob, and by adjusting the frequency of immob you by extension adjust the frequency of the poison.

If you mean the former, then you need to address why, as @"Crab Fear.1624" stated, we dont see a bunch of thieves running all manner of other condi builds with heavy success. It is only the one being mentioned that is causing problems outside of being outplayed.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > Its simple, you nerf Panic Strike = you nerf multiple builds and likely prevent future ones from exiting.

>

> yeah, good. teef has too much evasion/ stealth/ kiting potential for a ranged condi build to ever be balanced.

I see.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Nerfing panic strike punishes all builds that need immob when it is the most useful: when the opponent is approaching low HP and is beginning to panic.

> also its funny that you're defending a passive proc and want to remove the same effect on a weapon skill. bit of gold right there.

Because the passive proc is useful in all manner of builds and those shouldn't be punished if they are not overperforming and we can address the one that is without disturbing other synergies.

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> i can lock 3 people at once and nerfing that will ruin the whole point of s/x (which may i add is meant to be based around power builds, not condi) but because of 1 trait everyone thinks its sw2 issue.

That being said, this is important to consider as well. The main thing is to balance S/x condi as non-destructively as possible. can we instead apply another condi or two in a small area that is also debilitating?

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> nah its panic strike that allows this build to exist.

Nerfing panic strike punishes all builds that need immob when it is the most useful: when the opponent is approaching low HP and is beginning to panic.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> the fact that sword 2 isn't a problem on power should tell you all you need to know.

It isn't, but at the same time I'd live just fine with chill, a bit of slow, or something else that doesn't require I stack poison on Sword+2. Power builds dont need the immob to be effective on Sword 2 as much as they need panic strike to finish people looking to go heal.

In other news, just mentioning I saw a group of Anet employees in _The Pit_ on Saturday in HoTM getting blown up by all manner of meme builds. I don't know if that was for Extra Life or not, but if any of you all also keep an eye on this thread, please keep doing that/spectating from the stands. It's not the best indicator of what is broken or not but it is a decent enough place to understand at a very basic level how certain builds interact with each other.

> @"Highlie.7641" said:

> your good gentlemen.

> @"Highlie.7641" said:

> Me i guess i'm the best in the world according to them. except i don't even play this game anymore...

With all due respect for a player of your status, if you don't have a dog in this fight then let the people who do float their concerns while they have this opportunity. As of right now it doesn't matter who has been doing what. What matters is the solidity of their ideas.

Unless the best in the world is planning to make a triumphant return to PVP, in which case roll out the red carpet.

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> These changes to happen on Tuesday ? I feel like you are making big and good moves to actually get the balance going again for this game and to be honest I haven't been as happy for a balance patch in a while.

>

> @"Cal Cohen.3527" or @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" any chances we can get some insight when you guys plan to make the drop?

>

> Also wanted to double check on the status of Swiss / Tournament Of Legend/ Off Season 2vs2?

>

> Again thank you for all the hard work you guys been doing and keeping the community updated.

Theyre still iterating on that patch list, so it may not be as early as this tuesday.

Also glad that it targets the most overperforming specs, though there are some kinks that need to be addressed.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> the passive effects mostly lie in the design of the condi ambushes.

I'm fine with the condi ambushes getting redone instead, as long as the end result is a non braindead playstyle, but is that actually doable without upsetting pve?

> @"thehipone.6812" said:

>100blades is too stronk

*Vietnam Flashbacks*

This is fine _as long as you shave the exhaustion on elusive mind._

Also no mirage that is sane is going to take EM as long as you can still dodge while stunned and take IH.

They will just be very angry and take IH anyway unless they have to choose between damage and blowing up quick, or less damage but blowing up less quick.

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > why not change CLONE ambush duration and actually BUFF real mesmer ambush???

> >

> > This is of note. Is there something that can be done to shift the damage back to the mirage? Weaken the clone condi and power output and shift it to the actual mirage? That might be best for everyone. the more damaging mirage becomes more visible and less inclined to play passively, and they have more control of their damage, while opponent has less to worry about and only really needs to avoid the real mirage's ambush.

> >

> > All theory. I could be wrong.

>

> I mean the power output from clones is already way weaker than from the actual mirage, my clones tend to hit 600 with the greatsword ambush (with empowered illusions), and even less with the sword ambush. I'd argue it's weak enough

A Fair point.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> So basicly these changes:

>

> **We have have identified the following elites being OP** *so we are nerfing core traitlines to make it balanced*

>

> ... I dont know what else I expected.

Its draft one of a balancing effort that theyre trying to sharpen. point out why nerfing core to fix elite is bad and in which instances it is bad so the team can sharpen it

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> people will go baack to complaining like shadowsomething does with MUH 25 TORMENt AXE AmBuSh

Expect whining. There will always be whining. the goal is to get things to a point where if someone whines about something it is extremely obvious what the counter to that something is, and have that counter be easily accessible.

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > Really don't like the rampage changes. Over 99% power scaling reduction on these skills is way overkill. While I can agree with rampage's combination of cc and damage being oppressive, these are skills that feel like they should hit hard and at .01 power scaling they will be pretty much the lowest damage skills in the game. Go for about 30% damage reduction on these skills instead, being hit by a giant flying Boulder should hurt, being kicked or body slammed by a brute in a steroid induced frenzy should hurt, just not so much that rampage is a "win" button.

>

> I disagree, rampage is bad for the game. A elite skill should enhance your fighting or defensive capability not become a near I win button. Rampage hits REALLY hard, it should of never been that strong.

I'd consider myself a warrior main (thats what I have the most time on), but I also play everything else. When you are fighting a warrior and they go "uh oh im losing better rampage" and suddenly you need to have three defensive utilities on you immediately (one for boulder, one for stomp, one for kick) or be at risk of immediately dying, something is wrong.

Nothing is wrong with rage signet. one button match upsets aren't fun.

EDIT: Since Juggernaut has a damage reduction and pulsing stab, maybe shift it more to utility instead of pure offense, and have it break stuns on cast with the damage coefficient reduction proposed in the future. Priority now is making it less wholly oppressive.

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> [Proposed changes noises]

*generally quiet applause*

I'll take a look at skills touched and offer thoughts on some things. There are a few issues that could probably kill a build, ability, or weapon as @"Solori.6025" mentioned. This is also of note:

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> **WHY are we continuing to nerf D/D condi, P/D condi, and other potential condi thieves and NOT dealing with the SWORD part of the issue??** D/D condi thief for example has been TORN APART for YEARS due to nerfs aimed at sword/dagger. The issue with sword dagger is the ability to port in and out, apply damage and leave without being pressured. The immobilize doesn’t help either since it makes counterplay even more difficult.

Condi thief is strong because of this synergy. Consider making a change to sword 2. @"ZDragon.3046" made a suggestion that, if you use sword 2 to port and it misses or gets blocked/interrupted, you shouldn't get the flipover skill to return to where you were for a cooldown. It might be worth trying, itll punish thieves/force them to improvise if they don't ensure sword 2 is going to land. Itll keep the playstyle viable but make it more volatile so you cant just be lazy knowing you can port back as soon as you unload your condis.

> @"SoulSin.5682" said:

> You could also remove the dodge frames from Vault. Its already a very strong leap with damage and AoE, it never needed the dodge frames.


**No.**

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Nerfing Mesmers own staff skills is also not rly good, i agree and doesn't solve the problem of the passive condi applications from clones. It will just make Mesmers maybe unplayable or at least make Mesmers relying even more on **the passsive playstyle then before**.

I'm in agreement with Bravan on this. I don't want Mirage players shoehorned into the playstyle bolded above (and chronos, standard mesmers punished further) because now they have to just do the same rotation for longer. I don't exactly know how you could do that outside of a change to IH that makes it more volatile though. I'm thinking about that.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> why not change CLONE ambush duration and actually BUFF real mesmer ambush???

This is of note. Is there something that can be done to shift the damage back to the mirage? Weaken the clone condi and power output and shift it to the actual mirage? That might be best for everyone. the more damaging mirage becomes more visible and less inclined to play passively, and they have more control of their damage, while opponent has less to worry about and only really needs to avoid the real mirage's ambush.

All theory. I could be wrong.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> U can all rest easy tonight as the build was nerfed.

> Who we nerfing next?

We also need to look at:

Rampage/Tactics on Warrior/might generation synergies proccing MMR (MMR is fine but might gen is 25 stacks)

Holosmith

Condition oriented Mirage

Firebrand

For nerfing.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Every single frame during the landing of vault and bound are punishable. A block followed by a cc at end of any of them can be fatal for a DD as instant reflexes icd won't allow it to avoid constant cc evasion and I doubt most thieves or average thieves will stun break fast enough using other mean to avoid it. I have never once fought a staff DD that I couldn't hit, yes I've died to them but the definitely went impossible to hit and for how glassy they are and the dps being thrown out these days they should be very very hard to hit if played well or the spec is garbage. But ur right this is now and if the devs nerf other specs down maybe it was for the best to nerf the staff build. We will see.

Agreed. If active defense can be argued to be OP, then passive defense on a class with a more forgiving HP pool or more forgiving mechanics can also be argued to be OP if it promotes the same playstyle. Any rotation that can, to reasonable effect, be done without significant room for the opponent to do anything to offset it should get adjusted, and I am willing to give up staff/staff if that balancing direction is applied across the board.

I'll accept cleanse being tuned down if the builds that can put 6-condis on me with a single strike then ramp up their damaging one while I'm peeling the stupid cover condis also get tuned down.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> So what were basically saying is the DD or thief in general is designed to be double tapped by almost any skill but given evade frames out the kitten to compensate but the evades are now op and the best thing to do is lower its evades with no compensation. Gee best way for sure if u wanna kill a spec.

> But peeps are right actively spamming timed evades is braindead compared to passive sustain like more hp or multiple blocks and invulnerability skills that last 3 sec at a time etc. Sure wish thief had more of these skilled defenses

Nobody is saying the evades in general are OP.

The evades with the Staff Staff Weapon set, that particular build, **-is- OP,** though. 40 seconds of evasion in a rotation where point capture is your primary objective isn't right. That's insane.

There are other classes with busted sustain too, those also need to be looked at.

> @"Vicariuz.1605" said:

> https://clips.twitch.tv/ArtisticFairJamBlargNaut this person is spamming everything they have and its nearly 40 seconds of evade

> @"Highlie.7641" said:

> Open to attack: 39 seconds to 37 seconds

> 33-32

> 31-29

> X to 27 (he's looking away)

> 26-25

> 24-23

> 21-19

> 18-15

> 10-9

> 6- End

>

> Stellar playerbase, just stellar.

>

> i see 20 seconds where u can 1 hit that thief.

Kek.

It's not reasonable to consider this a fair playstyle because there are small gaps in between the rotation. Even if you were accurately reporting the seconds that thief is open to attack in that rotation, it still would be too much to reasonably expect counterplay. The thief doesnt even begin the rotation until 0:34, so you cant count 0:39 to 0:37 as being open.

Furthermore, when the thief finishes a dodge or evade he is not open for a whole second. I clicked a stopwatch in between a few of these dodges. On average, that thief is vulnerable for about a quarter of a second in between each of those dodges. There were 28 instances where that thief could be hit to be sure, but seeing as how each of the dodges has varying lengths and distances that are not predictable, you have a high chance of failing a CC or burst if you incorrectly guess which kind of evade the thief will use.

0.25s X 28 is 7. There were 7 seconds total in that string where the thief could be struck, for about .25 or 250ms segments each. That is the average human reaction time, and this is a MMO. So you're adding anywhere from 30ms + on top of that for any move you choose to respond to that, and many of them are not instant cast and have their own startup times.

It is not rational to expect to damage that rotation unless you get lucky and guess the next dodge type the thief is going to use and precast a CC. Dont be obtuse. It isn't fair.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.

> > > wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

> >

> > While your argument has several points that I'd push against, I hope you remember this explanation when condi mirage balancing is up on the block. The rationale you have for why things are unfair is correct, and I agree with it. Make sure, however, that you keep that same energy when the same explanation is leveled against condi mirage running staff/scepter.

> >

> >

>

> i am ready for mirage to get gutted same way chrono did, soon we will all run core mesmer and laught at people complaining still.

> staff staff thief is kitten. Whenever i see one, I avoid it. no matter the build i play no matter how good oponent is, the correct thing to do is to walk away. thats the problem, I dont really care all that much about broken specs, just laught when peeps really think that some of this broken stuff they can do is fine.

It amazes me how often we can keep visiting the situation where a class can contest a point so adequately on its own that it requires a +1 to even make them consider leaving, but people keep accepting that situation once it applies to their main. Bunker meta is bad, no matter what class it favors.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> D/D thief with acro also has strong sustain, heal on every INI spent, on top of heal for every evade. Thats more then mirage heals with WAAAAY more dodges, doesnt stop people from saying "perma dodge" doesnt it? the fact is you dont have to perma dodge. Fact is that you have more dodges then any build has offensive cooldowns, on top of good sustain, on top of alright sustained damage, on top of get out of jail free cards. Like evade on 50% for example.

> wins 1v1 due to attrition, wins 1vX becouse trolls for minutes while team carries the rest of the map, cant be bursted becouse 50% trait, doest die to power becouse mostly dodges + toughtness ammy, doesnt die to condi cuz clear on every evade. Do you see the point?

While your argument has several points that I'd push against, I hope you remember this explanation when condi mirage balancing is up on the block. The rationale you have for why things are unfair is correct, and I agree with it. Make sure, however, that you keep that same energy when the same explanation is leveled against condi mirage running staff/scepter.

> @"rowdy.5107" said:

> All these thief threads are from people that ... are using a class that shouldn't be trying to engage a thief in the first place.

Just pointing out that ideally, this situation shouldn't exist. Classes should be able to counterplay all playstyles within their class at baseline whether that includes picking up a different weapon or trait build or not.

EDIT: Also....wow. That hotfix is live. Like, now.

That was quick.