Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > **Hard:**

> > Power Chronomancer

>

> Wut ? Did this even exist ?

I'm sure someone somewhere is unironically using timewells

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Stealth needs a huge kick in the shins. As some have suggested in the past (and I agree with), if one is hit in stealth, they are instantly downed. Or, if you are in combat, you cannot stealth. Right now, there is no punishment or penalty for stealth.

While I'm willing to debate reasonable suggestions for balancing the stealth mechanic, let's not go that far.

**Post patch:**

_**God-Tier difficulty:**_

Power Engineer/Kit Engineer

Power Elementalist

Condition Revenant

Condition Berserker

**Hard:**

Power Core Thief.

Power Daredevil.

Power Chronomancer

All Weavers.

All Tempests.

Power Necro/Reaper

Condition Ranger

Dragonhunter

Power and Condition Renegade

**Medium:**

Power Warrior/Berserker/Spellbreaker without rampage.

Core Guardian.

Scourge

Power Revenant/Power Herald

Power Ranger/Druid

Condition SoulBeast

Power Mirage

Scrapper

**Easy**

Any warrior running Rampage.

Condition Thief.

Power Deadeye

Power Soulbeast

Firebrand.

**Diet GW2:**

Condition Mirage

Holosmith(Go down one tier if you get rampage in your rotation)

**Degenerate Play**

[None, see above]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > Mantra of Restoration healing for 10k with a 10s cool down?

> > >

> > > Let's fact check that one.

> > >

> > > Mantra of Recovery - 2¼s Activation time - 10s Recharge time

> > > Healing: 3,275 (0.4)?

> > > Number of Casts: 2

> > >

> > > Power Return - 1s Recharge time

> > > Healing: 1,640 (0.25)?

> > > Healing below 50%: 2,620 (0.4)?

> > > Health Threshold: 50%

> > > Count Recharge: 20s

> > > Maximum Count: 2

> > >

> > > So let's do some math:

> > > 3,275 + 1,640 +1,640 = 6,555

> > > or

> > > 3,275 + 2,620 + 2,620 = 8,515

> > >

> > > Hmmm that's yet again a lie from the OP as usual.

> > >

> > > That's not all though, 10s recharge + 2¼s activation time + 1s Recharge time between mantra means the cycle time is 13s - 14s assuming we're hitting the heal exactly on recharges.

> > >

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Recovery

> > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Return

> > >

> > > TLDR: Don't accept the claims of biased users with an agenda without checking it. I would encourage everyone to properly scrutinise the "facts" being presented in this thread as many do not stand up.

> >

> > NA mathematics, he also says that stow is 4s cd, while its 5s.

> > I tried to recreate his 7,1k hit with sword 1.

> > Turns out that without stacking might/vulnerability biggest hit i got was 4,9k

> > so what he propably did was stack 25might/vulnerability. and used runes/sigils that give % damage increase even tho you would never ever use them on sword.

> > bend the truth.

> >

>

> More like EU education :joy:

>

> - [p1](

> - [p2](

Doesn't look like a 4.9k / 5 second stow to me. /shrug

I'm still not on board with deleting mesmer mantras, but let's not downplay damage for no reason. Mantra mesmer runs Zerker scholar by default, so there's no way to claim you were using a weaker ammy, there's no point to do so for mantra build.

As for the post I was tagged in way back:

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> - "Mantra builds are memes"

> - "They don't work against good players"

> - "Just react"

> - "Play tanky builds"

> - "Mantras are easy to interrupt"

These are agreeably bullkitten excuses.

> - [he couldn't "react" in time](https://clips.twitch.tv/ApatheticAbrasiveZebraTheThing)

He could react to this one.

> - [oneshot](https://clips.twitch.tv/HedonisticWanderingBeanFutureMan)

This, however, is insane. There was no indication that that burst was coming at any point.

> - [part 1](https://clips.twitch.tv/DreamyCulturedWoodcockYouDontSay)

> Vallun chasing me for two minutes. He's a thief btw, a "mesmer's counter"

> - [part 2](https://clips.twitch.tv/PatientCleanNarwhalTF2John)

I don't know what the point to this is. Thieves haven't been mesmer counters for a long time. If your angle is that mesmers can still sustain and would thus survive a damage nerf to mantras/mantra build, I am inclined to agree to that.

I do not think the mantra mechanic itself should change. I am, however, definitely open to reducing the amount of damage one can do untelegraphed.

Thank you for providing video documentation. It's much better than hearsay.

Can we stop asking for mantra nerfs?

> @"Henrik.7560" said:

> They already nerfed power mesmer really badly, it's completely out of the meta, and is a meme build nowadays

> - daze into stun and stun duration increase was removed.

> - ci is disabled

> - mental anguish got gutted from 50/25 to 20/10 yikes

Because this and

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> But when you know there's a one shot mesmer that exists, they ~~are useless and~~ can only chip you at best.

>

This? They're already getting line of sight/facing mods so they cant be spammed while retreating. Leave the mantras alone.

(Disagreeing with that useless part because they can still nuke you while you're busy/if you dont see/hear them prestige. Its definitely not stealthMaul untelegraphed though.)

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

>

> **Where is the high AOE pressure damage mesmer build ?** Are we talking about the **massive** damage of well of calamity ?

> Mesmer teamfight resume to land 1 or 2 utility then move away. **Real teamfight builds are full of AOE effects should it be damage, boon, heal or whatever.**

The "high damage AOE pressure mesmer build" you are asking me to present is not what I asserted existed. Also, I am not arguing what constitutes a "real teamfight build."

My assertion was that **Mesmers were good in team fights.** utility is considered when addressing mesmer's viability/usefulness in team fights. Direct damage does not entirely comprise how good you are in team fights. Being hard to kill or extremely debilitating to nearby enemies are also facets that make a class good or bad in a team fight. That's why we had people upset about Poison thief and Scrapper recently.

I'd also like to note that I am talking specifically of its interactions in the PVP sphere. I am aware WvW is a mess and that some things scale very differently there, so I would like to not substitute WvW interactions for PVP/Conquest ones. our gear and comps are limited and that behavior doesnt match up with WvW utility.

I noticed this is now in the Mesmer forums. I think originally when I posted in it, it was in the PVP forums specifically and got moved here, but whether or not that is the case apologies for not specifying the above outright.

In PVP Conquest, we have had multiple instances of mesmer builds surface that excelled at dueling as well as supporting point fights from the outer edge. Chronobunker, Condi Axe, Condi scepter, CI/condi Staff and the other specs that have lead to steamrolling in pvp matchups were all reasonably useful in xvx matchups or outnumbers.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> **not auto lose, get unfavoured, same as mesmer isnt useless ( unless condi ) in teamfights, just weaker.**

I agree with this, -including the condition part.-

> you have better odds of winning 1v1, you have worse odds of winning 3v3,4v4 you name it.

I also agree with this.

> and yes mesmer is kitten in teamfights, even stupid thing like retaliation can make you have to leave, land 4man GS ambush and boom you lose 3k hp, land berserker, boom another 3k.

You're contradicting your own point, but I agree retaliation is a weakening force to mesmers in a group fight. You can strip on shatter though, so keep in mind that Retaliation isnt a hard counter to your GS ambush.

> Oh and btw most of those " lose to mesmer " classes have actually good matchups into them if they focus on what they are doing instead of playing on autopilot.

I also agree with this, although I wouldn't call it "focusing on what they are doing." It usually required, up to this point, speccing in such a way that you were prepared for only Mesmer and nothing else. No one class should be able to shape the meta around itself to that extent.

My focus is not on any of these statements though.

My focus is on the fact that mesmers **-have-** had some pretty busted builds over the last few expansions(In PVP conquest), and the fact that nerfs are catching up to them are not the result of "casuals wanting to win duels." If you have been boosted for so long that you are willing to take that your class should automatically win 1v1s as fact, then something's wrong. Especially if that same class can also perform reasonably in xvx, just without the same overwhelming curb stomp.

EDIT: [Displaced Charr]. Thought this was in the pvp forums and thus that it was assumed we were only talking about conquest.

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> It only highligh that forums are full of casual who want to win duel with their **gard/necro/elem/war/rev** who are way better in teamfight since day 1 and they don't understand that a class who is only good at single target should always win the 1v1 versus them.

> But you know they want to feel _strong_ by rollfacing everything.

> @"kraai.7265" said:

> SO FREAKING TRUE!!! They blame devs and other players because they refuse to learn how to play, or understand that each class has a ROLE, like in mmorpg (massive multiplayer ROLE playing game)

Mesmer's role is to beat, by nature of their class or their mechanical advantage, 5 of the 9 classes in game/ any class that they happen to find alone?

Mesmers aren't also good in team fights?

I'm not arguing that they need more nerfs at this time but these arguments are paper thin and reek of entitlement. Telling anyone it's their role to lose any matchup because of the nature of their -class- and not because of their build or their build's capabilities is asking for trouble.

Scarred Veteran here. Glad to see this made its way over to the PVP forums.

Also the lesson is that you're GOING to get tilted, so understand what tilts you, how you behave when you're tilted, and what you can do to untilt so you preserve your sanity/your team doesn't suffer.

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> Lord DGAF is the patron spirit of GW2 mainly because anyone who has played this game for more than a few weeks can probably open up the team roster pre-match in PvP and get a feel for how the game will play out. The team comps are RNG and the encounters are rock-paper-scissors. Might as well just run off meta for the giggles if player skill is suppressed to that degree.

I think that at least partially "for the giggles" is the point of pvp, but people would rather do the Paladin thing.

> @"Tycura.1982" said:

> Condi Thief

Particularly ones that can lean on sword 2 kites. Losing fight there unless you leave or snare and they have no stunbreaks.

> @"rwolf.9571" said:

> blocking the person you are whispering.

This,

> @"BadMed.3846" said:

> All we need is a friend only whisper setting.

This,

> @"Kamskill.9457" said:

> Chat restrict those who block within the 3 minutes after the first whisper.

And this. alternatively, disable blocking for 5 minutes after you send someone a whisper.

Sure its a minor annoyance, but it is not so minor that it has no effect. Otherwise people wouldn't do it.

Agreed for weaver. Scourge and FB are very monotonous, static playstyles. Weaver is close to thief.

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

>Patch notes being considered do the things.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> We need more of these threads. _This_ is very good to see and a high frequency of threads like these by Anet, along with them working with proven, experienced members of their competitive/endgame-modes _will_ encourage people to stay and continue playing.

Agreed.

Thanks for offering more transparency on this before the skills get implemented. It is a large help in pointing out oversights that could potentially cripple classes before the actual patch date. Please keep doing this.

I'm only going to comment on PVP changes, since WvW is outside of my scope right now.

> **Mesmer**

>

> * Illusion of Life: Increase the cooldown of this skill from 75 to 90 seconds in PvP & WvW and reduced the duration from 15 seconds to 8 seconds of its effect in PvP & WvW.

This is fine, but I would like to note that this change will largely affect WVW mesmers, so I'd like to pass that feedback off to them.

> * Power Break (Mantra of Pain): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

> * Power Lock (Mantra of Distraction): This skill now requires you to face your target and respects line of sight.

Mesmers in pvp wont like this, but It will make retreating mesmers weaker and allow some breakup of their damage dealing, while keeping their openers useful. The only question I have is, "what do you mean by "respects line of sight?" Are we talking line of sight that follows the curvature of terrain marked as ground, or are we talking an invisible physical projectile like headshot that can be obstructed on inclines?

> * Chaos Storm: This skill now always dazes on the first strike but can no longer randomly daze on other strikes. This change also applies to Lesser Chaos Storm. Added skill fact to show chaos storm's duration.

Okay, but I don't think this is entirely necessary because of the rework made below. If someone remains in chaos storm random dazes would be a reasonable outcome of that. As long as the chaos storm synergy doesnt _force_ them to remain in the storm, it should be fine as is. I'll let a mes chime in on that/pass feedback on that off to affected mains.

> * Chaotic Interruption: This trait has been re-worked and now reduces the cooldown of one of your weapon abilities by 5 seconds when you interrupt a foe.

This is fine. same kind of behavior as improvisation. What is the cooldown on it? If there's no cooldown, then the above change to chaos storm makes more sense. If theres a reasonable cooldown, my stance on the above change to chaos storm remains as it was.

> **Necromancer**

>

> * Feast of Corruption: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

> * Devouring Darkness: Reduce damage by 20% in PvP & WvW. The existing split from PvP of corrupting 2 boons is brought to WvW. This ability continues to corrupt 3 boons in PvE.

> * Sand Cascade: Reduce the barrier granted by this skill by 33% in WvW & PvP.

> * Sand Flare: Reduced the barrier granted by this skill by 25% in WvW.

Seems like a WVW change which I will pass off to wvw necros. The PVP influence seems...iffy. Just keep in mind that teams hard target necros first in conquest, so reducing their barrier could make them useless easily.

> **Revenant**

>

> * Coalescence of Ruin: This skill would no longer deals increased damage with successive impacts; instead it deals damage equal to what was previously the middle impact damage. Damage remains split between game modes. A red warning rectangle visible to enemies has been added to this skill.

Fair.

> * Gaze of Darkness: This skill would reveal stealthed enemies up to 600 range away in addition to striking enemies within its 360 radius.

The same range as DDs new Swipe huh? Fair enough. Gives heralds a fighting chance against thieves if they're not running meta, but if they -are- currently running meta (power, Shiro/Herald, sword/sword staff) it makes that a losing matchup for thief now.

> **Warrior**

>

> * Charge: This skill would only removes movement impairing conditions and then increases the damage of affected allies' next 2 attacks by 25% in addition to its previous effects. Increase swiftness duration from 10 seconds to 15 seconds. This skill becomes a blast finisher.

> * Call to Arms: Removes 3 conditions from affected allies instead of specific conditions. Grants barrier in addition to vigor.

> * Sight Beyond Sight: Increase the radius of this ability to reveal hidden enemies up to 600 range away.

> * Quick Breathing: Thinking of kicking re-working it a bit to pair with the warhorn skill changes so they feel more cohesive. Continues to increase number of targets for warhorn skills from 5 to 10 and causes warhorn skills to grant an additional boon instead of reducing the cooldown (Fury for Charge and Resistance for Call to Arms). Grant +120 Concentration.

Not sure i I like warriors hard countering thieves that much. They already have magebane tether that acts as both a reveal and a CC. Do they need the sight beyond sight buff as well?

> We look forward to seeing your thoughts and feedback!

Summary: Seems fine overall; thieves indirectly being nerfed, people will continue to claim thieves are busted. Thieves should now immediately leave if a warrior is nearby and they are not outnumbering the warrior. I don't like that, but it seems thematic.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> If you keep playing, then shut up and eat your broccoli.

This. If the game is in a poor state, don't do anything that could support it. Including buying that shiny new dragonscale skin.

Go play...iunno, warframe or something.

The inverse applies too though. If the game is currently balanced and fun to you or a change is made that resolves an issue, at the very least stop being toxic in game/help offset the negativity by letting Anet know when they do something correct. The developers are human too.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Ysmir.4986" said:

> > Hey, glad you enjoyed the video, I made it for fun. But Anet deleted the original post so I don’t think they like this vid. Just keep in mind that your comment/thread might get removed if you post it.

>

> They don't like it because they've been attempting to hide the root cause of Toxicity- Toxic Thief for 7 years+, so that is the reason why it was deleted.

>

> (Truth has already succeeded in tearing of Toxic Thief mask, there are no more hiding Toxic Thief)

>

> ---Toxic Mask Off--**We Know Who You Really Are Toxic Thief** (not its players), **Stop Pretending**--

>

> 

>

Just objectively speaking:

You sound like one of those conspiracy theorist guys and it's kind of endearing at this point.

The entire orrian sea.

I'm not good with sharks. especially giant undead ones.

Needless to say I tend to avoid that part of the map.

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

> 

>

> delete teef!

Thanks for ruining [consume plasma] forever

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > I just pointed out that thief has burst.

> >

> > Nah I get it, see above. It's just not insta, that's all I'm gonna clarify.

>

> On squishy, all you need to do is be in stealth,pup assassins signet and mark - bs. Easy 15/17k even so with "even the odds"

Why am I just learning about this

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> Well, how he possibly could prestack malice without attacking me or me noticing I was marked billion times ? I was afk'ing on the side of the arena as papersmer and some my fanboy stacked stealth at the corner with shadow refuge and stabbed me for 17k and then with position rewinder and zoidberg noises teleported away. (I'm not saying he was running marauder, I'm more than sure he is pure berserk pve style traits, just as other 14k shadow arts/berserk amulet)

Maybe he was using critical strikes line, quick or be killed, and some ferocity build. you can guarantee a crit backstab with that line, and dont necessarily need trickery if you're sure your first hit is gonna wipe someone

I'll go mess with it tonight lmao

Good advice but wvw is more dead than the forums.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > >Hes not right about MB being 17k on one malice though. it takes 7 and Assassin signet to hit that.

> > > ???????????????

> > > When I'll be on my laptop surely I will upload a screenshot I'v took from no malice backstab, no worries. He was fullzerk full dps for sure.

> > > I think I have on this PC 14k from SHADOW ARTS that has no damage, imagine now DPS traitline instead. (just tell me if you dont believe in that as well, I can upload :D)

> >

> > Lmao was it from a charr named Cheshire? You sure it was nomalice?

> > Shadow arts I believe, I've gotten those numbers myself on mara and SA. usually requires Mal7 and signet as stated though.

> I'm not on NA (assuming you are there), there is some absolutely obnoxious trolls in FFA. And I'm more than sure I had no malice as it happened many times and I barely stay alive after first hit, without even binding shadow lol.

Damn. I wish I could take credit for that backstab.

Can confirm you don't need binding shadow to 14k backstab. I am just suuuper wary of claiming you only need one malice to do it.

You need the boon buff from premeditation and mal7 unless you're hitting someone that's ultraglass and you are also ultraglass. Maybe theres some kind of interaction with quick or be killed that can do it too, I'll have to double check. But during my time before I moved back to DD I was absolutely able to peg people for 17-18k on dps amulets after malice was full.

Problem is that wouldnt translate well to pvp conquest because it wastes a hell of a lot of time in stealth losing the point, but in FFA absolutely.

That's also kind of my point. If you want to play power thief in pvp conquest(through deadeye) you're actively losing point capture in any engagement, so its strong but unviable.

Unless this 1mal thing turns out to be true, then Idunno.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> If you are gods of pvp you can fight in any venue.

Imagine getting kittening stronghold in rotation for team que

oh my god it would....

....actually still be a 50 50 winrate wouldnt it.

hmm.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> >Hes not right about MB being 17k on one malice though. it takes 7 and Assassin signet to hit that.

> ???????????????

> When I'll be on my laptop surely I will upload a screenshot I'v took from no malice backstab, no worries. He was fullzerk full dps for sure.

> I think I have on this PC 14k from SHADOW ARTS that has no damage, imagine now DPS traitline instead. (just tell me if you dont believe in that as well, I can upload :D)

Lmao was it from a charr named Cheshire? You sure it was nomalice?

Shadow arts I believe, I've gotten those numbers myself on mara and SA. usually requires Mal7 and signet as stated though.

I don't really care.

It's a really pretty map, Its just a zerg map and if you dont specify that lamp is pointless to your team you're gonna have problems. The change of pace is nice.

> @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> I just pointed out that thief has burst.

Nah I get it, see above. It's just not insta, that's all I'm gonna clarify.

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> -Take a look at Thief Rifle Benchmark-build included

> 'Lucky Noobs [LN] - Power Rifle Deadeye Benchmark - 41.452 (LN Settings)' by Alcatraz

>

>

Its fine to look at the build from this if you need assistance but take this post with a grain of salt. It's stacked with food/buffs you wouldn't get in pvp conquest.